any thoughts on these H.G.'s
- Thread starter tbirdaj
- Start date
That's a good find. On their website it does say for 89-95 SC's
http://www.flatoutgroup.com/orders/products.asp
According to their techtips, they say to O-ring the block.
http://www.flatoutgroup.com/gaskets/techtips.asp
http://www.flatoutgroup.com/orders/products.asp
According to their techtips, they say to O-ring the block.
http://www.flatoutgroup.com/gaskets/techtips.asp
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I spot two problems with these gaskets.
They use a layer of rubber to seal oil and water passages-this leaves you open to combustion pressures eroding that layer of rubber.
You are required to o-ring the heads-once you do that, you're stuck with using that type of gasket.
I'm gonna assume that these are a relatively new item-I know I haven't heard about them during my research on head gaskets.
Yes, we recommend that all copper head gaskets be put through a heat cycle and then retorqued for proper seating of the wire o-ring. The heat cycle should be done with no pressure in the cooling system. Let the engine cool and then retorque. We recommend that the bolt/nut be cracked loose and then retightened to specification following the same torque sequence pattern.
Here again, we run into an issue with the head bolts-if you use the stock bolts, you cannot retorque them-they are a bolt designed to stretch when torqued properly, and are thus not reusable-if you reuse these bolts you are just asking for a failure.
We recommend that all copper head gaskets be installed on engines with machined "o-ring" grooves and stainless steel wire o-rings. This groove is traditionally done in the engine block. Typical wire diameter is .041" in a .039" wide x .029" deep groove resulting in a wire standup of .012". This is used in combination with a .040" thick copper gasket (about 4 times the wire standup). For engines at or above 3 HP per cubic inch of displacement, the combustion seal should be enhanced. For this we recommend a receiver groove opposite the o-ring, typically in the cylinder heads. See your engine builder for other options and machining details.
So-this really isn't a complete gasket, like we are working on at SCE. You have to o-ring both the block and the head, along with providing the properly sized ring? The cost of the gasket is nice-but look to spend an additional $250-$400 for the machining requirements. The SCE ICS Titan does not require this-the ring is integral with the gasket, and forms a tight seal of the combustion chamber when torqued down
Check out this thread on gaskets - http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69475
They use a layer of rubber to seal oil and water passages-this leaves you open to combustion pressures eroding that layer of rubber.
You are required to o-ring the heads-once you do that, you're stuck with using that type of gasket.
I'm gonna assume that these are a relatively new item-I know I haven't heard about them during my research on head gaskets.
Yes, we recommend that all copper head gaskets be put through a heat cycle and then retorqued for proper seating of the wire o-ring. The heat cycle should be done with no pressure in the cooling system. Let the engine cool and then retorque. We recommend that the bolt/nut be cracked loose and then retightened to specification following the same torque sequence pattern.
Here again, we run into an issue with the head bolts-if you use the stock bolts, you cannot retorque them-they are a bolt designed to stretch when torqued properly, and are thus not reusable-if you reuse these bolts you are just asking for a failure.
We recommend that all copper head gaskets be installed on engines with machined "o-ring" grooves and stainless steel wire o-rings. This groove is traditionally done in the engine block. Typical wire diameter is .041" in a .039" wide x .029" deep groove resulting in a wire standup of .012". This is used in combination with a .040" thick copper gasket (about 4 times the wire standup). For engines at or above 3 HP per cubic inch of displacement, the combustion seal should be enhanced. For this we recommend a receiver groove opposite the o-ring, typically in the cylinder heads. See your engine builder for other options and machining details.
So-this really isn't a complete gasket, like we are working on at SCE. You have to o-ring both the block and the head, along with providing the properly sized ring? The cost of the gasket is nice-but look to spend an additional $250-$400 for the machining requirements. The SCE ICS Titan does not require this-the ring is integral with the gasket, and forms a tight seal of the combustion chamber when torqued down
Check out this thread on gaskets - http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69475
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SCE has a 2-month backlog that they are working through right now-with any luck those might come up earlier.
I have been granted exclusive rights to sell them-the prices mentioned do NOT include the 20% discount I will give SCCoA members-that comes to $132 for 7/16 head bolts - $144 for 1/2" bolts.
I have been granted exclusive rights to sell them-the prices mentioned do NOT include the 20% discount I will give SCCoA members-that comes to $132 for 7/16 head bolts - $144 for 1/2" bolts.
XxSlowpokexX
Registered User
You can get ARP head studs for the 2.8 Chebby at under $100 at Summit. They work great on the SC.
As far as teh rubber getting erroded by combustion gasses with an Oring that is just not going to happen. Also Orings are not specially sized merely a peice of wire set in teh reciver groove an dcut to fit. Relatively ineexpensive.
What it comes down to is with your motor still in the car what gaskets can we use. If it requires remachining of the deck of the block the gasket is useless for a majority of owners. If you need to retorque its a pain but can be done when using the proper hardware.
As for 3hp per cubic inch and needing both a cut in the block and the heads..If you are making that much power you are not dealing with anything near a stock shortblock and the motor would have had to come out and machining done. On the otherhand machining of the head for a reciever grove and wire is easily done when replacing head gaskets and getting yoru heads resurfaced.
I see no reason why this wouldnt be another viable option for ourcars
As far as teh rubber getting erroded by combustion gasses with an Oring that is just not going to happen. Also Orings are not specially sized merely a peice of wire set in teh reciver groove an dcut to fit. Relatively ineexpensive.
What it comes down to is with your motor still in the car what gaskets can we use. If it requires remachining of the deck of the block the gasket is useless for a majority of owners. If you need to retorque its a pain but can be done when using the proper hardware.
As for 3hp per cubic inch and needing both a cut in the block and the heads..If you are making that much power you are not dealing with anything near a stock shortblock and the motor would have had to come out and machining done. On the otherhand machining of the head for a reciever grove and wire is easily done when replacing head gaskets and getting yoru heads resurfaced.
I see no reason why this wouldnt be another viable option for ourcars
XxSlowpokexX
Registered User
To clarify. You can oring teh head rather then the block in this aplication.
Hock
Registered User
Come on guy's, we all complain about not having enough GOOD options for headgaskets for our cars, now that there is a really good on out their you all complain about having to get machine work done to make it work. If that means that I won't have to worry about having the HG's blow at a critical time then I'll take them. It seems as though this company has identified the need for them and has produced them without the hassle that we have gone through to get companies to make a few and not see any results.
Now if I'm understanding Damon right all I need to do is have the head machined for these, right? If so, next year I'm getting them.
Now if I'm understanding Damon right all I need to do is have the head machined for these, right? If so, next year I'm getting them.
XxSlowpokexX
Registered User
Instead of oringing the block you can oring the head...Yes
Hock-the whole reason for going with SCE is that NO MACHINE WORK is needed, other than milling the head to provide a clean smooth surface.
Looks like no one noticed that the manufacturer of the other gaskets specifically states to maching a received groove in the block, and if you are at 1900 or above, then add the groove in the head.
Damon-the whole reason for going with the SCE is that the ring is integral with the gasket, making for a very tight seal-with the other gasket, you will still have the possibility of combustion pressures working past the ring and into the gasket.
When you layer rubber over copper, or rubber with steel, you provide a weak point for combustion pressures to erode and peel the layers apart.
I have done my research-the SCE ICS Titan will be the best gasket on the market for the 3.8L
Looks like no one noticed that the manufacturer of the other gaskets specifically states to maching a received groove in the block, and if you are at 1900 or above, then add the groove in the head.
Damon-the whole reason for going with the SCE is that the ring is integral with the gasket, making for a very tight seal-with the other gasket, you will still have the possibility of combustion pressures working past the ring and into the gasket.
When you layer rubber over copper, or rubber with steel, you provide a weak point for combustion pressures to erode and peel the layers apart.
I have done my research-the SCE ICS Titan will be the best gasket on the market for the 3.8L
XxSlowpokexX
Registered User
Perhaps Coy Miller knows something 1000's of racers worldwide dont. Again if you are pulling a motor out and able to cut the groove into the block or have the special tool to cut the grooves while the block is still in the car great. But this leaves out a majority of SC owners who merely want to change a headgasket.
Also if your heads are milled many times over I wouldnt reccomend a reciever groove be cut into your heads. Then again I wouldnt reccomend those heads for a performance buildup either. On a good set of SC heads I see no problems PROPERLY cutting the CORRECT DEPT reciever groove for an Oring into them.
As for race only a plain copper gasket requires proper preporation to work correctly. Retorque, application of sealant around water jackets..Orings in high HP applications. An MLS Gasket for comparison requires much more preperation for out application. 10 of these or ten of those you know?
The new generation of copper gaskets are SOOOOOO much better then that as Birdman has mentioned. Rubber coatings are the norm and take care of a majority of the copper gasket complaints.
The Titan gaskets are nice because they will have an intergral oring.
In closing head gaskets are a protection factor. They protect your motor by blowing. A copper/oring gasket will still allow combustion gases through just not to nearly the same extent as a standard composite gasket or an MLS....So in that regards anything other then a gasket that will fail under detonation can be considered a race gasket.
XxSlowpokexX
Registered User
Also..
THinking about it. The titan gasket will fail more easily then a typical oring/copper gasket combo. Which isnt such a bad thing. Because even if you lift your heads and leak compression, unlike a composite or MLS gasket which would be junk the Titan will still continue to work like a typical copper oringtype setup. That would give me a good peice of mind
THinking about it. The titan gasket will fail more easily then a typical oring/copper gasket combo. Which isnt such a bad thing. Because even if you lift your heads and leak compression, unlike a composite or MLS gasket which would be junk the Titan will still continue to work like a typical copper oringtype setup. That would give me a good peice of mind