It's Ashame!!!!

Normally I do not complain. But I think that this 'club' is more of a business and should not be called a club.... When I first found this site, I was please with all of the information that was here. There is no doubt that they save me money by helping me with common issues. But then again, I remembered that I bought a lot parts from supercoupeperformace.com. I totalled everthing up and I spent almost 4000 dollars on performance parts from bill. I later realized that many of those parts could be bought cheaper at other places not to mention shipping. Examples:

Griffin Radiator SCP=$725 Coy Miller Website: $525

SCP Autolite Douple Platinum =$6 a piece ($36) Kraegen = 2.99 a piece ($18)

Kooks headers: $619 Alternative = Port your current manifolds and you have a comparable flow. (Bill would have never told me that!)

SCP Cat Back = $749 Local Shop = They did the exact same setup with better dynomax muffles for $500

SCP CAI = $250 Alternative =Others are cheaper and you can build you own out of chromed mandrel bent 3.5 exhaust pipe

There are many more examples but I think this is sufficient to prove my point. Now some may say that supercoupeperformace is separate from SCCOA. Then may I ask why is it listed under SCCOA Parts? Why isn't mn12performace or scperformace listed there??? Aren't they owned by the same person? It really sucks that things have turned out this way. I think the heads of SCCOA are not adressing these issues properly.

C'mon! A club is not about making money off of your members. It's about helping and guiding fellow SC'ers. it seems that SCCOA sometimes guides it's members to what makes more profit. The high membership dues (because some are needed), asking for more money for a server and the parts store are proof of this. Someone is making a good amount of money off of this organization.....

But certain people here are more concerned with money then with members.


Oh yeah and just to warn you.... I bet this post won't be around for long and that one of the moderators will lock or more likely delete it.

Surprised to see it last this long. Let's take it back to the top!

My fellow SCCoO members all know how I feel about members gouging other members, as the topic has already come up in that forum.

In the case of donations for a server upgrade, I have to ask where all our SCCoA membership dues have gone??? Certainly publishing the Charging Thunder and distributing it doesn't cost what my membership cost me, so I have to assume there should be money left over to pool towards things like 'server upgrades'.

Mr. Evanoff, is the collection of membership dues for a 'non-profit'-type club, where all monies are to be rolled back into the club, or has someone been profiting from these revenues? Are there some club-related costs that we as members are not aware of? It may improve the situation here if the books were opened, so to speak, to everyone. Then, if the need for donations for things like server upgrades is justified, I'm sure you'll see an overwhelming response!

But that's just my personal opinion... So don't shoot me if you disagree.

Respectfully yours,

Sean

ttt

Hmmm, sounds like a mini worldcom or Enron. I wonder if the same bookeeping methods are used?



Jim Long

That's why alot of the ol' school SCers, ones with tons of knowledge, don't post here very often

Non Profit - Not for Profit

I do not think that this is a Non or Not for profit Club.

If you were to put the time forward to develop and support a website, compile and print a Magazine (newsletter) for quite a few people (say your work) would you be willing to do all of that gratis.

I think that is asking too much from anybody including yourself.

We just need to understand that this is an information medium and only an information meduim.

The "knowledgeable" posters are not gone they just get sick and tired of the bickering and they probably have lives of their own to lead.

People get tired of answering the same questions over and over that is why there is a search of the posts so that you can find the answer without asking the same question over and over again.

Just my $.03 worth.

I think Albert makes a very good point. Personally, I wouldn't be willing to do all that Bill and Ron and the rest of the crew do without being compensated in some way.

That being said, I think the SCCoA then needs to be run as a business, not so much in an effort to reap the biggest personal profits necessary, but more in the sense that money needs to be earmarked for expansion costs, like server upgrades. If the club executives are going to continue to collect membership fees from everyone, and one of the things that the club members expect in return is access to these forums (without finding the site down as much as it is up... OK, that was a bit over-dramatic), then one of the costs of operating this business should be to ensure that the club's site is sitting on hardware sufficient for the task.

Imagine for a moment that you operated a company as an internet service provider. You charge your customers money and in return they expect that within the terms of their contract with your company, they will have the promised access to the internet. If it turns out that the hardware you're using is insufficient, and the customers experience service outages as a result, then is it appropriate for you to solicit donations from your customer base in an effort to upgrade that hardware??? It might make more sense to simply raise the price for the customer when they next negotiate a contract, and maybe that's something that the SCCoA needs to consider. However, I'm hearing more and more of people who have been members of the SCCoA, who are giving serious consideration to not renewing their memberships because there are now other resources available for knowledge and parts, and the 'membership' fees are much lower.

I don't mean to open a nasty can o' worms here, and certainly I don't mean any disrespect to the people who work hard at delivering all that the SCCoA offers (like Bill and Ron, etc.). In fact, on the contrary I really don't want to see the SCCoA lose any of it's membership for any reason. It's just that I've been seeing some signs that the club's popularity is sliding, and I think that measures need to be taken to stop this from happening. I don't fault Ron for posting an invitation to donate for the server upgrade. Donations by their nature involve people voluntarily giving money to a cause. Everyone can make their own choice in this regard. I'm only suggesting that perhaps things like this need to be handled in other ways by the people who have been collecting membership dues for years for this club. As the club has grown over the years, I think these funds should have been used to improve the infrastructure, so that future growth could be supported.

...And that's just my $0.02 CDN worth. So, what's that? ...$0.00000000000000000000002 in US funds???

Best regards,

Sean

There's absolutely no reason why one or two perople should do every thing. The responsibilities of the club should be split up among a handful of "officers" instead of one person doing it all. Not only would that lighten the load, but also provide a sort of "checks and balances" to keep everylthing in line. Virtually every other car club in the world that I have looked at is set up with multiple officers, and is done on a not for profit (at least not for individual profit) basis. The monies raised is reinvested in the club and/or set aside in the treasury for upcoming expenses (ie servier upgrades). Sure, maybe the people that take the time to do all this stuff for the club should recieve a little compensation, but it shouldn't pay like a full time job!

It was for these and other reasons that I decided to no longer be part of the SCCoA. I terminated my membership a cpuple weeks ago, but since I paid for the whole year and did not recieve a refund, I am still technically a member. If any one would like the specific reasons why I left, please e-mail me at danman91@earthlink.net to discuss it.

Albert: Actually all the smart guys have gone, they went to the incredible TBSCEC. All the laid back cool guys went to TBU. The rest of us remain here, or lurk on the other ones (like me)

Point Taken

That may be true, and I get good information from the other boards, but I have been able to answer the bulk of my question on this forum with the search option.

club or biz

I can't make a truly original statement as all the good points have been addressed already...time + energy = money...good resource...etc.

The fact is...if the world gave us everything for free, we could and would give up all our time and energy for the same fee. But we have to put food on the plate and keep a roof overhead somehow.

Now I'm not an old time SC'er but I have belonged to car clubs in the past and as VP of our NJ chapter there is one point that only those with experience will ALL attest too...GOOD ORGANIZATION is priceless.

I'd hate to see SCCOA turn into what my old Oldsmobile club turned into...a bunch of stoggy middle-old aged men who pioneered in their youth with crazy modification, notions and racing, but now just want to keep their car AS IS and vehemently debate over NOS vs Reproduction. Where a car show is lining up cars and then just perching yourself in a lawnchair all day. Do we REALLY want a line up of identical, off the showroom floor SC's that are so *yawn* exciting to see like the older Birds?? Personally, the first thing I'm looking at on my car is how to make it stand out....and I think that's why ALL of us chose to have an SC and not a base bird/cougar or mustang for that matter....Distinction.

To have information & entertainment at your fingertips required a LOT of preliminary research & planning. What takes a minute to edit or criticize takes a weeks or months to create...so some details will not be to everyone's liking. Others will.

On one hand some complain a club should be free, but if people were not as dedicated to it as they would like, then complaints would fly that "this board sucks" or "why haven't they updated this or that".

Conversely, if it was a dedicated business, then complaints would fly that it lacks the personal feel.

Take a moment to think about the day in and day out commitment to ANY project before spitting off your 2 cents. Anyone can spend a minute to express a thought, but are they willing to make the commitment to see that thought/idea become a reality??? Be it someone's idea of a SC modification or this boards organization.

SCCOA may not be the best SC organization, but it's still a damn good one if for no other reason than to bring us all together on one platform/forum. I don't know about you but I'm sick of calling business's up and hearing, sorry we don't have enough interest in that car to warrant a part for it. We choose an SC so we must deal with it's rarity. Many of the old time SC'ers may have simply outgrown SCCOA....very well move on and stop by sometimes to keep in touch and when I get to become a old timer I'll move on to the other boards. But don't bash the site for us newbies. Everyone has a learning curve and every organization have a similar 'interest" curve. SCCOA is at that first stepping stone level and I applaud Bill and his crew.

Regarding the parts aspect-That's why it's not SCCOA Performance parts...it's a completely different entity. Just as you would shop around from JEGS to SUMMIT for the best price you should do the same for SC parts. Sure we would all like to get that warm fuzzy and think that friends/club members will give us a SWELL deal each and every time on a part/service that will increase performance 100000% and last forever AND fix every other SC problem we could possibly encounter in the future. Is it a club member's OBLIGATION to do so?


From my service advising experience and as a "smart" consumer, I've recognized that we all pay a premium for ONE thing and one thing only...TRUST. Trust in the product, service and people. Now I have never purchased anything from Bill, but if he stands behind what he sells better than anyone else, then that peace of mind is worth the premium to me. While I can buy an SC off of eBay for $2500, I think I'd kick in an extra few hundred to get a similar one from someone I trust. And for the record, yes I DID purchase an SC from a club member that gave me more grief than all my other MN12's put together!!! But I got rid of it (yes at a LO$$) and have moved on with a remarkable lesson learned.

Wrapping it up, before our tempers swell to the boiling degree, let's keep in mind...

1- It's about the cars.

2-More importantly, enjoying them the way we individually choose to.

3-Most importantly, it's about enjoying the cars with one another. NO fun being the ONLY SC at a car function.

now let's sing "kumbaya" lol

Jesse

Ohh you have a lot to learn grasshopper

I guess I should say something here. I've been involved with and are involved with several Thunderbird clubs. I have been involved with the SCCoA since 1999 and though that does not make me high on the seniority list it puts me well in the middle. The main reason I joined the SCCoA (back when Bill Hull was the boss) was because of the focus on the Super Coupe and member involvement where as the other clubs didn't care about my late model 'Birds and didn't have much member involvement in my area(and I'm in Detroit). The main reason many old school members seceded was mainly due to conflicts of intrest and the lack of a true club structure. I am good friends with Bill Evanoff and have purchased parts from him and and am confident with him on the business end. But there appears to be some question to the way this "club" is being operated and everyone is intitled to their views. Perhaps things will pan out and maybe there will one day be peace in the SC community but only time will tell I guess. I do believe that members should have the right to see what the membership dues go toward to promote fiscal health of the club and that seems to be a major issue with a majority of the membership. I feel that this may resolve several issues among members of the SCCoA and then folks will have more faith in their club and inturn be more generous when financial issues arrise when membership dues alone cannot cover whatever costs may arrise.

I am one of those who like the SC the way it came off the line. I try to keep my SC as stock looking as possible as the reason I like them is because thats the way Ford made it. Though I have done several mods to increase performance I still try to maintain stock trim. Also in the future I plan pick up a 35th anniversery and will keep it bone stock-0 mods. After all the SCCoA motto IS "Dedicated to the performance and PRESERVATION of the Thunderbird Super Coupe" so there is absolutly nothing wrong with desiring to keep an SC in AS IS condition. It is the way Ford ment it to be. If I wanted an all tricked out SC i would joing some hot rodding club or instead I'd drive one of those far east cars with that FatF look.

My humble opnion....

I would like to say a few things.

It is because of the SCCoA that I found my local chapter, the SCCoO. I have met lots of great friends who would help each other even if it had nothing to do with our cars. PRICELESS.

It is because of the SCCoA that I learned about the many performance upgrades that can be done to our cars, and given the opportunity to purchase the parts which was not easy to find. I personally have not purchased parts from Bill E. but learned a great deal from the site. Credit has to go to Bill Hull also.

The SCCoA helped in the transfer of information pertaining to our cars between members. Innovative ideas from very intelligent members, you know who you are...Cough..Dr Fred..Cough. Sure they have broken off into their own site dedicated to SC's but it all started here, i think. I also encourage and support these other sites as they give SC onwers more choices and provide more exchange of ideas.

If you don't think SCP is fair then don't purchase from SCP. You have many choices now in which we can get parts for our cars. If you have concerns what your yearly membership fee's are being used for, and you have every right for that info, then don't renew your membership if that info is not given to you.

I am not into the inside politics of the SCCoA and I personally would not want the responcebility of running the club, so I refrain from speaking against it.

In closing I would simply like to say that it's all about our cars. I personally have performed many upgrades to my bird and I would like to acknowledge the fact that the SCCoA helped in making my bird what it is today. Sure there are other sites now but back when I had my first SC in 1996 there were not many choices.

I hope no one takes offence to anything I have said because I did not mean to offend anyone. I was/am speaking about my specific experiences and opinions about this very sensitive topic.

Without this club....

The other clubs wouldn't exist. It was bill hull after all who took the plunge to start this club, I've been visiting the web site since 1998.

Consider this, without this club, there wouldn't be people like coy miller that would be willing to improve the breed. Anytime an owner would want something to get done to their car, they'd have to get it customized.

As far as SCP is concerned? It used to be that SCP was the only "player" in town. But now we've got SCperformance, wade embree, Coy miller, MN12 etc. To purchase parts from.

Kooks headers used to cost $800. Competition/volume have changed that a little bit. More headers being produced, reduces the cost. You have to remember that things for this car are going to cost $$$, it isn't a mustang and parts that are produced are in limited supply. We all bought our SC's cause we didn't want a mustang (most of us anyway) and therefore we consider ourselves a little bit smarter than your average mustanger. Meaning that we're gonna shop the price and part and weight the pros and cons of each part, manufacturer and retail outlet.

I don't think that there are many folks here who have anything bad to say about the Bill E. runs his business. If he was running his biz poorly he wouldn't be in biz.

So having said all that, this is one of the main reasons why I stick around the SCCOA. It still is the largest SC club around. There are still a bunch of smart folks who come here. Another thing that I like is the SCCOA is totally FREE to come here and share info. there are many posters here that are not official members of the club. yet they are getting their information for free. I think it is goo to have an "open door policy" like this. In fact I wasn't a member of this club until 2001. Yet I had been coming here since 1998. I got my SC in 1999. That's fair and cool. And it is why I have decided to remain a member. When I realized that the general people here are not your average 18 year old ready to start a fight at the drop of a hat, I knew that real information sharing could take place here.

I think the whole deal with prices is that identical parts can be had elsewhere for less. I've found that out myself, and therefore do not buy parts from BE when I can get them cheaper elsewhere.

I (and I think all the others) are not saying anything bad about the SCCoA. Just that it needs some improvements. And if it does change, then I will consider contributing my money and knowledge here. But since BE was not receptive to my helpful suggestions, I have annulled my membership.

If anyone would like more details on my reasons for the separation from the club, feel free to contact me at danman91@earthlink.net.

Then why post here if dissatisfied?

If you have a legitimate gripe then do what you need to do.

We may not care for the reason why.

Sorry to lose you, but that is your choice!

I am posting about this here because I would like to see an improved SCCoA. Hopefully enough people can rally together to generate some changes for the better.

I'm sure that if Bill Hull didn't start the SCCoA that some one else would have. Heck I might have with being disapointed with the VTCI and the ITC as their main focus is on older Thunderbirds. Matter of fact Bill Hull wasn't serious about starting the SCCoA but since there was enough interest he went ahead and created the world which we know as the SCCoA. But it took its toll on him and that is why he passed the torch so to speak.

Reason there wasn't much aftermarket support is that the Super Coupe was a limited production car and was not aimed at hot roddin guys like said Mustang. After all Mustangs are like elbows and @ss holes--everyone's got em.

So if you want to give thanks for all thats here I think it technically should go towards Bill Hull for all the work he did to get the ball rolling. But again if he didn't do it some one else would've sooner or later.

If one's not happy with the SCCoA we've been blessed to have other choices.

And why am I still here? Cause I'm here, I'm there, I'm everywhere.

GOOD POINT

We in NJ-NYC tri state area got rather restless over the TCCOA/SCCOA's buddy buddiness so we did what any proud American would do...we started our own club, therefore we could address the issues we felt were being ignored by the former, yet continue to use the resources that they offered. EVERYONE was happy.

I encourage all those out to there develop their own regional chapters and again, use tccoa/sccoa as platforms for us to network.

I started in NJ, now I'm here in Ca. visiting my lady friend and with the use of this forum have developed a good relationship with the Southern Ca. chapter.

Plus, I'd like to know what particular improvements you had in mind

Jesse