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hinterland
01-25-2006, 08:11 AM
hi im new here and from australia so dont throw rocks at me.and i own a gm v6 but have put a ford m112 blower on it as well as a turbo the prob im having is that i dont no the pully ratio and as it stands now carnt get any more than 5 pound boost from blower any ideas would be much appreciated.
thanks wayne:)

XR7 Dave
01-25-2006, 09:20 AM
Step one would be to measure the diameter or circumference of your drive pulley and compare it to your driven pulley (blower pulley). A good place to start would be about a 2.0:1 drive ratio.

How do you have the turbo connected? It looks to me like they are running parallel, or am I missing something?

Randy N Connie
01-25-2006, 01:18 PM
Thats a very interresting setup. got any more pictures
and information. Looks nice.

Thanks Randy

fast Ed
01-25-2006, 01:38 PM
Do I see a turbocharger on the passenger side of the engine compartment as well? (Right side of the photo) :eek:

The car is a Holden Monaro?


cheers
Ed N.

CMac89
01-25-2006, 01:40 PM
The turbo is on the driver side of the engine compartment, although you can barely see it.

I don't understand how that setup would work efficiently anyway. Looks like you have the turbo blowing through the blower?

fast Ed
01-25-2006, 02:00 PM
The turbo is on the driver side of the engine compartment, although you can barely see it.


No, that's the passenger side, it's an Australian car ... RHD. That's why I said right side of the photo ... ;)


cheers
Ed N.

CMac89
01-25-2006, 02:01 PM
No, that's the passenger side, it's an Australian car ... RHD. That's why I said right side of the photo ... ;)


cheers
Ed N.
*sigh* Okay Mr. SmartPants

You can clearly see the turbo in the first pic anyway.:)

89XR7TD
01-25-2006, 08:52 PM
:D
hi im new here and from australia so dont throw rocks at me.and i own a gm v6 but have put a ford m112 blower on it as well as a turbo the prob im having is that i dont no the pully ratio and as it stands now carnt get any more than 5 pound boost from blower any ideas would be much appreciated.
thanks wayne:)

The best of both worlds!!!!!!!:eek:
Nice setup man!!!

hinterland
01-25-2006, 09:00 PM
here is the pic of turbo its a t4t70

90blkbrd
01-25-2006, 09:12 PM
That heat shield above the turbo looks suspiciously like a 1970's era Ford hood scoop.

Duh! I see what it is now.

Young-SC-Owner
01-25-2006, 09:34 PM
doesnt a turbo do the same as a s/c i mean i dont tknow why you would have a s/c and a turbocharger they both do the same i though......help me here!!!

01-25-2006, 10:15 PM
doesnt a turbo do the same as a s/c i mean i dont tknow why you would have a s/c and a turbocharger they both do the same i though......help me here!!!

He's going with a SuperTurbo setup. Supercharger for the low end and the Turbo for the high end.

Interesting setup...looks like the turbo is going into the supercharger. Do you have some kind of bypass setup? Explain buddy...I want to know.:D

Stephen

hinterland
01-25-2006, 10:17 PM
doesnt a turbo do the same as a s/c i mean i dont tknow why you would have a s/c and a turbocharger they both do the same i though......help me here!!!
hi the blower gives me grunt till turbo boosts up and takes over im trying to get blower to run 8 lb and the turbo 18 lb

Mike8675309
01-25-2006, 10:35 PM
There is an excel spreadsheet in the post linked below that you might be able to use the formula's from to do the math.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21145&highlight=pulley+excel

It's currently setup for a Tbird SC.

hinterland
01-26-2006, 07:13 AM
He's going with a SuperTurbo setup. Supercharger for the low end and the Turbo for the high end.

Interesting setup...looks like the turbo is going into the supercharger. Do you have some kind of bypass setup? Explain buddy...I want to know.:D

Stephen
hi
the turbo is going through intercooler then blower i have made a air bypass before the t/body so that on vac the blower is getting its own air without trying to suck it through the turbo. on the turbo i have hooked presure line to close the bypass valve i have set it for around 8lb so the turbo is spooled up and starts to add boost to blower.the bypass is a t/body with a orig m112 bypass acuator opening it and closing it as pic.even with the belt of blower the turbo and air spin the blower up enough to make 1 to 2lb boost at 1800 rpm and turbo starts to spool up at 3000rpm so everything is working out fine all i have to do is sort the tunning side out which is another story.

hinterland
01-26-2006, 08:52 AM
Thats a very interresting setup. got any more pictures
and information. Looks nice.

Thanks Randy
hi here are some pics of the commodore vt 1997 i havnt got any real good pics only these

MrBlvd
01-26-2006, 12:22 PM
Dude ... That is a True Mad Max Ride There

89XR7TD
01-27-2006, 12:02 AM
A Pontiac GTO - eh guys!!!
Goodluck with that beast!
Him and the guy with the fast GTP's should race:confused:

Mike8675309
01-27-2006, 08:20 AM
That really is some nicely done work. Note down in Austrailia, that's a Holden, not a Pontiac GTO.

ThunderCoupe
01-27-2006, 08:08 PM
I can't tell exactly what is going on here, but here are explanations of the different possibilities.

Parallel -
The turbo and supercharger would have seperate air intakes and could either meet at an intercooler/ have two seperate intercoolers and meet at the intake manifold. By meet, i mean that they are both trying to compress the same space of air.

The difficulty with this set up is that if you have no bypasses/blowoffs/etc. then both the blower and the turbocharger have to be producing relatively the same amount of boost or else one is holding the other back. If the supercharger starts out producing 5 psi while the turbo is still trying to spool, then the supercharger will be trying to compress the air going towards the turbo and attempt to spin it backwards because the pressure will want to follow the path of least resistance. Since the turbo is still spooling, it's not producing enough boost to overcome the supercharger and if/when it does, it will then be overcoming the supercharger and the extra boost will try to flow back through into the supercharger. This should probably in theory cause extra heat and extreme turbulance.

One way to avoid this might be to have different diameter piping trying to equal out the overall flow rates from each intake, but this will be extremely difficult, and unless you've designed a varying diameter piping, will probably be highly ineffecient.

The next, and more practical way is to have essentially a T piping where the two connect, and put a valve/ flap that would be moved by the pressures from each intake pipe. While the supercharger would be producing more boost,it would push the path from the turbo closed, and would operating alone. Then as the turbo started to produce about equal pressure, it would be floating in between and allowing flow from both. Then finally when the turbo is running at full strength the supercharger pipe would be closed off allowing the turbo to run.
The problem with this set up is now that we have a side blocked off, we need a way for the pressure to bleed off, or else we are pretty much back to where we began. And if we just let the blocked pipe blow off, how are we going to know when it would be producing more pressure and need to be opened? It could be done. I believe something GM used called a THERMAC system might be able to be modified to work for this, but it's going to take tinkering and testing.

Now we come to in Series.

Scenario #1
This would be having the turbo have an air filtered intake, and then have the compressor side run into the closed piping intake of the supercharger. If the supercharger has compressed air coming in, then it should be able to compress it even more resulting in more boost. This should be a decent set up because on the intake of the supercharger is a vacuum, and depending on how much boost the supercharger would produce without the turbo compressing into it, the vacuum could possibly help reduce the turbo lag. With there already being compression on the intake from the supercharger, there is also going to be more pressure coming out on the exhaust side, and this greater flow means that lag time should be dramatically reduced allowing the possibility for even larger turbos.

Scenario #2
This would be giving the filtered intake to the supercharger and then running the compressed side of the supercharger into the intake side of the turbo.
The idea behind this is, if you compress the air into the turbo, then it will be spinning faster all the time, and have no lag. An effect of this, because of the fact that the turbo will be spinning faster than the exhaust would be pushing it, will be that depending upon the size and ratio of the wheels in the turbo, you could actually be pulling the exhaust out of the engine while forcing air in. If you place a blow off valve between the two, then the turbo would want to stop spinning and would be propelled by the exhaust alone. We would end up with a less than ideal situation. But if you place the blow off valve after the turbo, then the turbo will still have that compressed air propelling it to spin. We would have zero compression on the intake, but the exhaust would have however much vacuum that would arise from the compression created by the supercharger, resulting in a higher flow rate through the engine, and probably reduced exhaust temperatures, reduced turbo temperatures, and therefor reduced intake air temperatures in theory.

Scenario #3-A

This would be to run the supercharger to the exhaust side of the turbo and then have the turbo compress the intake.

3-A-a
The idea behind this would be to run both the exhaust and the compressed air into the same side of the turbo. The downfall of this is you end up with the extra compression trying to flow back into the engine the wrong way, and this just has bad idea written all over it.

3-A-b-1
The idea behind this would be to create two isolated paths on the exhaust side of the turbo. One would be for the engine exhaust to flow through, and the other would be for the superchargers flow. The supercharger would be propelling the turbo to increase speed, and if the internal rotor of the exhaust was in a 1:1 ratio with the supercharger and pipe diameter were kept constant, then this would again reduce the pressure on the exhaust of the engine helping to increase exhaust flow. The supercharger wouldn't be creating much heat because you could just dump it directly there and would not to run an exhaust to the rear of the car as it wouldn't have much if any adverse effects as to underhood temperatures or cabin air quality.

3-A-b-2
The idea behind this would be to instead of dumping the compression from the supercharger after it has run through the exhaust of the turbo, re-route it back into the intake side of the turbo through closed piping. This would then place the air filtering intake on the supercharger. The problem with this might be that the temperature after leaving the turbo, while it wasn't enough to cause concern in the engine cabin area, might create too much heat internally in the turbo.

3-B-a
The idea here is to run the supercharger solely into the "exhaust" side of the turbo. There would be no heat from the engine exhaust here, thus reducing the temperature in the turbo. Depending upon the ratio between the fins, you could be running 5 psi on the supercharger and turn that into just about any amount of pressure you want. With a 3 to 1 ratio, a simple 5 psi turns into 15 psi on the intake. Again we could just dump the exhaust of the supercharger directly into the engine bay, this time with little increase over abiant temperature.

3-B-b
This will be to run the supercharger as the sole propeller of the exhaust turbine of the turbo, and then run the "exhaust" of this into the intake side of the turbo.


To fool electronics into working in any of these situations is going to be a bit tricky. The strength of the engine internals will be tested. There will be a great need not only for intake air cooling, but also increased engine cooling. Exhaust piping will have to all be custom made with increased, unheard of diameters that may be hard to run in stock locations.

But it's all possible with enough work, thought, and problem solving.

ThunderCoupe
01-27-2006, 08:29 PM
and yea, now that i re read all the posts in the thread... i realize that you already explained that you are running the turbo into the supercharger as in series scenario 1...

David Neibert
01-27-2006, 08:35 PM
He has it plumbed in a series with a secondary intake for the supercharger. I think the problem with not building boost may be related to the supercharger bypass valve or it just isn't pulleyed to spin fast enough. I also think the secondary intake for the supercharger makes things more complicated than needed.

The biggest problem is that when that secondary intake is open the MAF operates in a draw thru configuration and when it's closed the MAF has to operate in a blow thru configuration.

Either way it's a cool setup.

David

Mike Manzo
01-27-2006, 11:07 PM
I seriously need to move to Australia....Aussies are NUTS and they have ~~~~ing awesome cars...

I would sell my soul for a Falcon GT...

hinterland
01-28-2006, 01:22 AM
and yea, now that i re read all the posts in the thread... i realize that you already explained that you are running the turbo into the supercharger as in series scenario 1...
hi theres a fine line between genious and mad and you are the genious.;)
scenario 1 is the go as ive tried a few different setups and this one will work and it is exept ive had few hickups with different ideas.as from today i have it running with boost from turbo comming in at 3000rpm and goes hard as till redline the blower is still disconected but it still just as a intake manifold is producing enough boost through free spinning to make it very guttsy from 1000rpm to 3000 rpm.the seperate air intake ive made before the blower is only open from idle 900rpm to 1100rpm as its only operated on vacumn.but is doing the job as its stoped the turbo from stoping at that rev range.all these mods ive been doing are on a stock n/a motor ive done this to make everything fit and get the setup close enough to be running reliable and then im putting it all on a brand new crate super 6 block and heads ive got done for blown configeration o ringed and valves ect ect..im going to run it on gas injection as well as petrol as our pump gas is only 98 ron and would have to nock timming back to much if wanting to run the desired 18lb boost.its only still in development here i spose you guys have had it there for years but they recon us ozyies are bit backwood.ive also made provisions in the inlet runners for a mild 75 h/p shot of nos just to spark it up abit .so thats about it untill i can source some pullies to play with the blower boost as i am running it 2.1 but 3.5 inch blower pully and 7 inch drive pully but the drive pully is on the power steering pump so i dont think im getting the revs to motor revs right as im new to these blower setups.
on a end note i have to say you are very helpfull and is much apprecited thanks.

ThunderCoupe
01-28-2006, 07:16 PM
so how much boost does the turbo produce as is through the supercharger now? also, how high does this engine rev? my best suggestion would be to tune the supercharger so that it's spinning about fast enough to produce the same amount of boost as the turbo about 3/4 the way to the redline. As far as pulley sizes and what not, i really dont know...
Also, the way it is set up now, the air doesn't even pass through the intercooler when you have the supercharger intake working. I really dont know how things are set up and how much space you have and how hard it would be to reroute everything to use it more. Also, have you heard about alcohol injection? Snow Performance inc? i would recomend concidering this if your worried about having to pull timing back at the higher boost levels, and running on pump gas.

hinterland
01-29-2006, 01:10 AM
so how much boost does the turbo produce as is through the supercharger now? also, how high does this engine rev? my best suggestion would be to tune the supercharger so that it's spinning about fast enough to produce the same amount of boost as the turbo about 3/4 the way to the redline. As far as pulley sizes and what not, i really dont know...
Also, the way it is set up now, the air doesn't even pass through the intercooler when you have the supercharger intake working. I really dont know how things are set up and how much space you have and how hard it would be to reroute everything to use it more. Also, have you heard about alcohol injection? Snow Performance inc? i would recomend concidering this if your worried about having to pull timing back at the higher boost levels, and running on pump gas.
hi got the turbo wastegate set to 14lb and so are the 2 blow of valves one between the turbo and blower other between t/body and blower. engine revs to 6500rpm.turbo air is intercooled but blower is not but i have water/metho injection which i just hooked up its single injector activated by hob pressure switch also set at 14 lb.

ThunderCoupe
01-29-2006, 07:20 PM
i can only imagine how amazing the sounds coming from under your hood are.
Sounds like you should have most everything figuired out, good luck sourcing pulleys, and keep us updated:)

bubbaflaat
04-19-2006, 02:00 AM
how much power are you making? I bet it isn't very much for the amount of money you have in there

XR7inWI
04-19-2006, 03:13 AM
how much power are you making? I bet it isn't very much for the amount of money you have in there

Carefull..... That may be a losing bet. ;)

I would like to see some numbers on that setup. Wonder if it ever got finished?

tbird88
04-19-2006, 08:44 PM
I seriously need to move to Australia
Nah, their gun laws are gettin' almost as bad as Chicago's.

Hinterland, howdy from here in Texas. I have a customer on the boards at Honda-Tech.com that has done a turbo-into-blower setup with outstanding success. He goes by the handle of "rmcdaniels", has a vast amount of knowledge on this subject. He's one of the top runners there, I have an M90 of his at the shop that I'm reversing the rotation on right now, look him up.

I also have a few customers down there in OZ, they mostly put M90's on the Lexus SC400's, pretty cool stuff, one of them has their setup in a Cobra kit car!

take care,

'bird

boostedbird
04-20-2006, 06:56 AM
What alot of you are failing to understand is that the roots blower is just that, its a blower! I was going to go the same route using a MPII with an sts remote mounted turbo where the muffler sits and have it set up for 7 PSI and it would make the roots all that much more efficent. Then I decided that the twin screw was a better way for me and alot less hassle. But the reason that this will work on a roots blower is like I said above its a blower not a compressor like the twin screw. The roots does not compress air it moves air, therefore it does not care if its moving compressed air or noncompressed air. Another drawback to a system like this though is the roots as we all know DOES heat the air and it heats it ALOT! So in a set up such as this it is CRUCIAL that a very good intercooler set up is incorporated. Because now you have already hot compressed air coming from the turbo going into the blower and moved through it as well, meaning that good old physics is heating this already hot air even more! But you do get a little bit of a kicker here, now that the turbo is forcing the air into the blower the blower does not have to work so hard to move the air meaning two things that its not heating up the air as much as it normally would be and its taking less power to spin the supercharger. But now you have the turbo in the exhaust path so you lose a little power there as well hence why people do not see the big gain back from the supercharger taking less to spin. An ideal way to go would be to install an RPM activated switch to a clutch engaged supercharger pulley,(Same kind used on the mercedes cars) so that once the turbo takes over the superchargers clutch pulley disengages and the supercharger freespins there by taking off all drag used by turning the charger and freeing up that much more HP. :D

tbird88
04-20-2006, 08:03 AM
But the reason that this will work on a roots blower is like I said above its a blower not a compressor like the twin screw.

The twin screw does not compress air either.

side note: Turbo-into-Roots has been around a long time, the Detroit Silver 92 is a prime example. I drove one for a living.

'bird

XxSlowpokexX
04-20-2006, 10:34 AM
Wynn the AR does to an extent copress air. Not in the same vain as a turbo or centrifigal but it does

XR7inWI
04-20-2006, 11:59 AM
Actually, the roots blower, twin screw blower AND turbo ALL simply MOVE air and not compress it. The compressioin of the air comes from forcing the large volume of air into the limited area. But if ya really wanna get technical, an air compressor does the same thing. It doesn't COMPRESS the air either. It simply forces a large volume of air into a fixed volume tank witch in turn creates the compression of the air.

Really, they are ALL just air PUMPS. Backpressure is what creates the compression of air in ANY of the systems, whether it's a blower, turbo or the air compressor in your shop/garage.;)

boostedbird
04-20-2006, 02:16 PM
wrong wrong wrong!!! A roots blower is an air mover the compressing comes from craming all that air into the manifold, the turbo does so by way of its vanes and channeling it into the snail which changes shape on the outlet as does a centrifical, the twin screw DOES compress the air inside its case don't believe me call dave D or ask kenny bell or autorotor or whipple for that matter. Thats why the twin screw enjoys better power than the roots its internal compression ratio helps lower the heat and uses less power to turn.

Mike8675309
04-20-2006, 05:12 PM
The autorotor, and similar Twin Screw compressors work on the Lysholm principle and compress the air as it is moving through the unit. By also forcing more air through the system than the engine can use, it also compresses air in side the intake tract. (The rotors have a conical shape to them, compared to the symetric rotors in the M90/112)

Note that because the rotor pack is compressing air when they spin, the off boost load of the Autorotor is greater than that of the M90/112.

91supacoop
04-20-2006, 05:48 PM
here is some reading on superchargers in general, it contains information on all the different types. Pretty good introductory-intermediate read.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger.htm

here is a short info page on specifically whipples twin screw blowers:

http://www.coloradocobras.com/whipple/about-whipple/whipple-twin-screw.html

tbird88
04-20-2006, 09:31 PM
XR7inWI - thanks!

I stand on what I said. Now where did that Aussie go? Need to know if he wants to pick on a FAST car :D

'bird

darkstar_one
04-22-2006, 04:36 AM
you guys scared him away. he saw how the americans were starting there technical mumbojumbo and ran off to some poor honda site... ya see what happens when ya go off the subject

Tickler
04-22-2006, 08:21 AM
You'll never catch me argueing trivial drival with these kind people who have devoted themselves to this site and these cars. I believe thier time is much more valuble doin what they do. These cars are almost 20 years old, im pretty sure nobodys going to re-invent the wheel here. Besides, dyno and 1/4 mile slips speak the loudest in this forum im afraid.

Respectfully,

nwnsc
03-12-2008, 11:18 PM
Check Muscle Mustang About 3 Or 4 Mounths Ago 03 Corba With Compound Boost Sounds Like What You Are Doing Like 1000+ Hp