Audio Question
- Thread starter rhodes588
- Start date
Many Ways
Are you talking about multiple drivers, in one box, with one input?
Are you talking about multiple drivers, in one box, with two inputs?
There are Soooooo many ways to hook up a sub. Need to know more particulars about what you went to do.
68COUGAR
Are you talking about a 2-ch sub amp & running a 4 ohm sub on one ch, and an 8 ohm sub on the other channel?rhodes588 said:
Are you talking about multiple drivers, in one box, with one input?
Are you talking about multiple drivers, in one box, with two inputs?
There are Soooooo many ways to hook up a sub. Need to know more particulars about what you went to do.
68COUGAR
22lbsofboost
Registered User
it also bears strongly upon what subs you have, how many and the impedance of each
also important is matching the ohm load to your particular amp.
a very common setup is this
2 channel amp +2 4 ohm woofers
if you wire them in stereo you have 4 0hm stereo
but if you bridge the amp on these 2 4 ohm subs you have a 1 ohm load
2 ohms at the subs+bridging a stereo amp = 1 ohm load
this is unacceptable for most moderate 2 channel amps
a 1 ohm bridged load is better left to your high current zapco, orien, etc.
now if you had 2 8 ohm subs parallelled to 4 ohms, then your 2 channel amp would see 2 ohms bridged, and most will run at that unless its a real turd.
This is why d class amps are so popular nowdays. they are usually a single channel design. so if you do 2 4 ohm subs to a single you get 2 ohms instead of the one ohm you get from bridging a regular 2 channel amp.
The dumb thing about it is, most dclass amps like to run at one ohm. so you need 4 4ohm woofers, or 2 dual 4 ohm voice coil woofers, which are more popular now also. dual voice coil subs allow for several different configurations depending on your amplifier type. you could wire to dual 4 ohm voice coils in series to show 16 ohms if you needed to! albeit the lower you can safelyt run your ohm load, again depending on the quality/size/structure of your amplifier the lower impedance you can run at the more power you have. i have a US amps USA 300 only rated at 300 watts at 4 ohms, but meters out at nearly 1700 watts at 1 ohm bridged. your typical 1000 watt amp needs AT LEAST 4 guage cable at 1 farad of capacitance. running 2 batteries 1 as close as you can to the amp will CONSIDERABLY boost the output of you high power/high current amplifier. i have picked up as much as 5 db just from adding a battery
JUST to give you an idea of how you can tell what an amp puts out for power, despite what might be written all over it, is checking to see what kind of current draw it has. if it is a true 1000 watts, it will have 100 amps of fuse on it. if it says its 2000 watts and only has 3 30 amp blade fuses on it, the rating is bullsheist. you simply cant pull 2000 watts worth of current through 3 30 amp fuses.
mmats, xtant, JL, soundstream, crossfire, eclipse, these are some names i trust.
lanzar, audiobahn, these are known to the industry as "flea market" brands. ok stuff for the man on a budget. just dont think for ONE SECOND that your audioban 1000 watt amp has anything close to that power at undistorted listening levels.
also look at the damping factor 300 400 and above is awesome damping.
if the amp your looking at doenst have damping factors in the owners manual, find another amp. they dont print it usually beacuse they dont want you to see it.
another note on d class amplification. these d class amps are some of the dirtiest amps out there. they will overheat a voice coil 2 to 3 times faster than a conventional class AB amp of the same power. they clip much easier and will destroy themselves under heavy loads if you dont have a battery close to the amp. 1 farad of capacitor is not enough for 1000 real watts either. i had an alumapro 15 farad cap on my 2 d 1000's and i was draining it completely during a 5 second burp.
these are just a few things to think about as far as serious car audio goes.
also important is matching the ohm load to your particular amp.
a very common setup is this
2 channel amp +2 4 ohm woofers
if you wire them in stereo you have 4 0hm stereo
but if you bridge the amp on these 2 4 ohm subs you have a 1 ohm load
2 ohms at the subs+bridging a stereo amp = 1 ohm load
this is unacceptable for most moderate 2 channel amps
a 1 ohm bridged load is better left to your high current zapco, orien, etc.
now if you had 2 8 ohm subs parallelled to 4 ohms, then your 2 channel amp would see 2 ohms bridged, and most will run at that unless its a real turd.
This is why d class amps are so popular nowdays. they are usually a single channel design. so if you do 2 4 ohm subs to a single you get 2 ohms instead of the one ohm you get from bridging a regular 2 channel amp.
The dumb thing about it is, most dclass amps like to run at one ohm. so you need 4 4ohm woofers, or 2 dual 4 ohm voice coil woofers, which are more popular now also. dual voice coil subs allow for several different configurations depending on your amplifier type. you could wire to dual 4 ohm voice coils in series to show 16 ohms if you needed to! albeit the lower you can safelyt run your ohm load, again depending on the quality/size/structure of your amplifier the lower impedance you can run at the more power you have. i have a US amps USA 300 only rated at 300 watts at 4 ohms, but meters out at nearly 1700 watts at 1 ohm bridged. your typical 1000 watt amp needs AT LEAST 4 guage cable at 1 farad of capacitance. running 2 batteries 1 as close as you can to the amp will CONSIDERABLY boost the output of you high power/high current amplifier. i have picked up as much as 5 db just from adding a battery
JUST to give you an idea of how you can tell what an amp puts out for power, despite what might be written all over it, is checking to see what kind of current draw it has. if it is a true 1000 watts, it will have 100 amps of fuse on it. if it says its 2000 watts and only has 3 30 amp blade fuses on it, the rating is bullsheist. you simply cant pull 2000 watts worth of current through 3 30 amp fuses.
mmats, xtant, JL, soundstream, crossfire, eclipse, these are some names i trust.
lanzar, audiobahn, these are known to the industry as "flea market" brands. ok stuff for the man on a budget. just dont think for ONE SECOND that your audioban 1000 watt amp has anything close to that power at undistorted listening levels.
also look at the damping factor 300 400 and above is awesome damping.
if the amp your looking at doenst have damping factors in the owners manual, find another amp. they dont print it usually beacuse they dont want you to see it.
another note on d class amplification. these d class amps are some of the dirtiest amps out there. they will overheat a voice coil 2 to 3 times faster than a conventional class AB amp of the same power. they clip much easier and will destroy themselves under heavy loads if you dont have a battery close to the amp. 1 farad of capacitor is not enough for 1000 real watts either. i had an alumapro 15 farad cap on my 2 d 1000's and i was draining it completely during a 5 second burp.
these are just a few things to think about as far as serious car audio goes.
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22lbsofboost
Registered User
musta scared this guy lol
My setup wasn't enough. I sent back that bandpass box that I ordered for 2 Alpine Type-R 10" running to a A800 Intake Audiobahn. I was sort of on a budget that's the reason for audiobahn. I made myself a box out of 3/4 partical bored and measure everything to the suggested amount. Anyone know of someone that carpets boxes? Is it that hard? Any good places in the chicagoland area for window tints?
I ordered 4 Audiobahn speakers 100 watt rms and ran all new wire instead of using the stock harness. It sounds pretty good, especially for the price I got the set for (70$)
The speakers I have run on 2 OHM and the amp I have will run on 2 OHM unbridged. I'm not to comfortable with hooking things up at different OHMS so could someone help me out? I have all the wires ran already, just need more specifics on to make it sound better.
Thanks,
Kyle
I ordered 4 Audiobahn speakers 100 watt rms and ran all new wire instead of using the stock harness. It sounds pretty good, especially for the price I got the set for (70$)
The speakers I have run on 2 OHM and the amp I have will run on 2 OHM unbridged. I'm not to comfortable with hooking things up at different OHMS so could someone help me out? I have all the wires ran already, just need more specifics on to make it sound better.
Thanks,
Kyle
thirdbird
Registered User
rhodes588 said:
Hi
if you bought those alpines new, the directions they came with have several wiring configurations pictured and explained that you may use with them. Go to the website and download the manual Here:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/support/speakers_amplifiers/speaker_faq1.html
I have 4 12" R's myself. Best sub for the money, BAR NONE.
good luck,
paul
the ohms or resistance of a speaker are determined by the speaker not the amplifier. basically for configuration: (R = ohms, resistance)R1 + R2 + R3 = total R (series wiring) so if you have three 4ohm woofers in series the total is 12ohms 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 = 3/R then R/3 = total R (parallel wiring) if you have three 4ohm woofer in parallel the total is 1.3ohms. most stereo amplifiers (2ch) can only run either 2ohm stereo (which is a 2ohm load for each channel) or 4ohm bridged (which is utilizing both channels into one creating a mono signal) mono amplifiers or class d amplifiers are only one channel but most of them accept a 2ohm load, but some more powerful and expensive amplifiers can accept a 1ohm load. what does this mean? well circuitry operates on the fact that with less resistance there is more current flow. so if an amp does 50 watts @ 4ohms it can do 100 watts @ 2ohms and so forth. this also implies that your power to the amplifier is steady. in cars the current rarely is so most amps are rated at a 12volt rating. so that 50watt amp does 50 watts at 4ohms and 12 volts but at 14 volts it might do 75 or even a 100 watts. and on the reverse if your car cannot handle the load of the amplifier (voltage goes under 12 volts when playing bass) the watts of the amp decrease. the other thing to consider is your signal voltage from your headunit. as that is increased or decreased also is the amount of power your amplifier does, using inexpensive rca cables can cause your amp to strain and heat up, the more the gain is turned up on an amplifier the more distorion. distortion is what bows speaker not power. so if you have a strong alternator, good battery, preferable a capacitor (i recommend at least 1 farad per 500 watts) big enough power cable (a 20ft run of 4 gauge is a stretch for systems over 720 watts tatal power), and the best set of rca's you can find (you will probably be spending at least $60 for a 2 channel 17ft set), you have good foundation for getting the most out of your stereo system. covering a box is pretty easy, get a good stretchable carpet (unbacked) and buy some 3m super 77 spray, and wrap it like a xmas present. when you get to the sides try to make the seam in a non visable area and use a kniife to cut straight edges, were the carpet meets rub it a little and if you r seam is good it will almost disapear.
22lbsofboost
Registered User
i gotta say that a vast majority of power amplifiers are rated at 14.4 volts instead of 12v nowdays. some manufacturers (crossfire for one) will give you ratings at 12 v and 14.4v. most of your lower line products are rated at 14.4 v at the PEAK power output. this means that the level they rate the power at is distorted and mostly unuseable. your audiobahn 800 and a MMATS or XTANT or JL 800 watts are a totally TOTALLY different animal. some amplifiers will rate their amplifiers on up to 20 volts because thats what some guys run at. this is quite common on the competition circuit.
a friend of mine here in ga has a truck for his audio store. kind of a test mule for new stuff. right now he is running an ONYX audio quad voice coil 18"sub
and 4 american bass VF10000D in a bronco 2. it has 100 farad of capacitor
(2 alumapro THE CAP 50 farad a piece) and 8 golf cart batteries.
it will burp at over 175db. the bronco has 3/4" thick plexi windows, welded doors, rebar everywhere, no dash, etc.
american bass is a newer company (not to be confused with flea market american pro) and these amps are working very well and have been for 3 months now under a 1 ohm load. they have been tested at the company at as low as 1/4 OHM!!!!! im not sure if onyx is even around anymore. they hand built this quad voice coil unit for todd.
anyone remember back in the day when you could go buy an ORIEN high current amp rated at 100 watts at 4 ohms, 1000 watts at 2 ohms and it would run all the way down to 1/2 ohm? there was a rash of grossly underrated amps on the market at that time. IASCA caught on pretty quick and outlawed these amps along with the US amps cheater series shortly after their introduction. i just fixed a US amp US 300 for a guy. he had an audiobahn 2300 HC(this is supposed to be a 2000 watt AMP!!!! while the US is rated at only 300!) well needless to say the US amps 300 was twice the amp of the audiobahn that was touting 8 times the power, with much cleaner signal with more damping and headroom to spare.
uhh, theres no way im gonna get raped for 70 bucks on some rca's
i can make my own for a 10th of the cost. all this double triple shielded crap is malarky. the bronco aforementioned in the post, with well over 4000 watts is running a set of $20 yellow stinger wires. cheap stuff. ive used inexpensive signal cables the whole time ive been doing car audio for my own stuff and if you dont snatch them apart, they work pretty good. CAR AUDIO magazine did an extensive test on cables a few years back. the best ones were fosgate, monster cable, and a couple other big names. the losses of the cheaper cables over a 20 ft run was only like .00045 volts or something, barely noticeable. i d rather spend that 70 bucks on a much better head unit to draw your signal from.
if you have to buy expensive signal cables try radio shack. i know it sounds crazy but their top of the line double shielded cables with the heavy gold ends are really good cables. 20 ft set around 30 bucks. i had a little TV noise in my home audio and they took care of it. i havnet really had motor noise in my car since 1991 when i gave away my prized pyramid 300 amp lol
and while most people do blow their subs with distortion (mids and tweets too) i watched an amercan bass vf 1000d physically destroy an L7 kicker 15 in the parking lot of the shop just last week. sent the voice coil right through the front of the sub. distortion will usually just fry the coil or the tinsel leads of the sub.
on american bass--- heres one of their subs
here is a 150 watt amp @ 4 ohm. it does WELL in excess of a kilowatt RMS at one ohm
these guys did 175 db with american bass products
a friend of mine here in ga has a truck for his audio store. kind of a test mule for new stuff. right now he is running an ONYX audio quad voice coil 18"sub
and 4 american bass VF10000D in a bronco 2. it has 100 farad of capacitor
(2 alumapro THE CAP 50 farad a piece) and 8 golf cart batteries.
it will burp at over 175db. the bronco has 3/4" thick plexi windows, welded doors, rebar everywhere, no dash, etc.
american bass is a newer company (not to be confused with flea market american pro) and these amps are working very well and have been for 3 months now under a 1 ohm load. they have been tested at the company at as low as 1/4 OHM!!!!! im not sure if onyx is even around anymore. they hand built this quad voice coil unit for todd.
anyone remember back in the day when you could go buy an ORIEN high current amp rated at 100 watts at 4 ohms, 1000 watts at 2 ohms and it would run all the way down to 1/2 ohm? there was a rash of grossly underrated amps on the market at that time. IASCA caught on pretty quick and outlawed these amps along with the US amps cheater series shortly after their introduction. i just fixed a US amp US 300 for a guy. he had an audiobahn 2300 HC(this is supposed to be a 2000 watt AMP!!!! while the US is rated at only 300!) well needless to say the US amps 300 was twice the amp of the audiobahn that was touting 8 times the power, with much cleaner signal with more damping and headroom to spare.
uhh, theres no way im gonna get raped for 70 bucks on some rca's
i can make my own for a 10th of the cost. all this double triple shielded crap is malarky. the bronco aforementioned in the post, with well over 4000 watts is running a set of $20 yellow stinger wires. cheap stuff. ive used inexpensive signal cables the whole time ive been doing car audio for my own stuff and if you dont snatch them apart, they work pretty good. CAR AUDIO magazine did an extensive test on cables a few years back. the best ones were fosgate, monster cable, and a couple other big names. the losses of the cheaper cables over a 20 ft run was only like .00045 volts or something, barely noticeable. i d rather spend that 70 bucks on a much better head unit to draw your signal from.
if you have to buy expensive signal cables try radio shack. i know it sounds crazy but their top of the line double shielded cables with the heavy gold ends are really good cables. 20 ft set around 30 bucks. i had a little TV noise in my home audio and they took care of it. i havnet really had motor noise in my car since 1991 when i gave away my prized pyramid 300 amp lol
and while most people do blow their subs with distortion (mids and tweets too) i watched an amercan bass vf 1000d physically destroy an L7 kicker 15 in the parking lot of the shop just last week. sent the voice coil right through the front of the sub. distortion will usually just fry the coil or the tinsel leads of the sub.
on american bass--- heres one of their subs
here is a 150 watt amp @ 4 ohm. it does WELL in excess of a kilowatt RMS at one ohm
these guys did 175 db with american bass products
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75W RMS / ch. continuous
Ever wonder why a stereo 330W RMS / ch. @ .005% distortion, Class A, home amp costs around $1,500 & you can get a 1200 Watt car amp for $75?????? Now refigure that $75 car amp to RMS / ch @ low distortion & see what kinda number you get!!!!!!!!!
I have a Kenwood 2-ch amp, rated at 1200 watts. When you refigure the math to Continuous RMS, it comes out to 75 - 80 clean useable watts!!!!! I already knew that when I bought it & that is PLENTY of sub amp for my needs. I'm not a boomer, but do like the correct amount of sub bass for the music I'm listening to.
68COUGAR
I'd like to see car audio manufacturers fall under the same laws a home audio companys. Then they would have to rate their amps at 12 VDC & at certain number of RMS watts per channel, both channels driven, at a stated distortion level.22lbsofboost said:
Ever wonder why a stereo 330W RMS / ch. @ .005% distortion, Class A, home amp costs around $1,500 & you can get a 1200 Watt car amp for $75?????? Now refigure that $75 car amp to RMS / ch @ low distortion & see what kinda number you get!!!!!!!!!
I have a Kenwood 2-ch amp, rated at 1200 watts. When you refigure the math to Continuous RMS, it comes out to 75 - 80 clean useable watts!!!!! I already knew that when I bought it & that is PLENTY of sub amp for my needs. I'm not a boomer, but do like the correct amount of sub bass for the music I'm listening to.
68COUGAR
all manufactures starting this year are required to use a set scale on amplifier ratings, even in head units. so these 50 x 4 headunits will now be like 16 x 4. the rating is @ 4ohms, 12volts, at a certain frequency, i believe at 1kohms. i can find out for anyone interested. there are a lot of things to consider when purchasing an amplifier. the ratings however if looked at closely will tell the truth. power @ 12volts, at 4ohms, @1kohms is usually the standard. then you have to look at things like thd or total harmonic distortion. better quality amps have a lower distortion rate. if you want to talk high end look at macintosh. a 50 x 2 amp might cost you $1500. dont believe for a second that audio cables dont make a difference. that is like saying spark plug wires dont make a difference. you can take the cheapest audio cable then replace it with a mid level cable and hear a drastic difference. the mostly widely used audio cables in competition are made by monster cable. they are proven to have one of the lowest noise levels, but they are not cheap, somewhere in $150-$200 range for a 2 channel. speaker wire also makes a difference. like i said before the bigger the wire the less resistance which means a cleaner and more efficient transfer. do you want 16g. wire hooked to your battery or 4ga.? as far as the "cheater amps". only one as far as i know was ever outlawed. but if you look at their ratings it all makes sense. a high current amop has an unregulated power supply and can handle loads as low as .25ohms. so math says half the resistance double the power. so a 25 x 2 amp at 4ohms does 50 x 2 at 2ohms then 100 x2 etc. also with an unregulated power supply with more voltage you get more power it just is not as consistant as a regulated power supply so rms ratings are lower. the problem is the lower the resistance at the amp the higher the distortion. the main difference between cars and home is that in a house the voltage is steady in a car it fluctuates, with lights, wipers, a/c, and even rpm. to me making one note for a second is not very impressive that is like having 500hp for a second but normal driving you only have 350hp. i think most people care about sound quality not volume, if you follow my previously posted guidelines it is very possible to have both, but just like engines you cant have a strong consistant engine by having cheap spark plugs, small exhaust, improper cooling. we all know it cant happen. audio is exactly the same way. you get what you pay for, but with a good base of wiring a inexspensive amp can sound great.