Turbo Talk

XxSlowpokexX

Registered User
I figured we could start a turbo thread here where we can all just spill out our thoughts without hijacking threads. Lets see how this works:O)
 
if this kid doing his turbo setup pulls through and makes some good numbers, i know where ill be headed (to a turbo)
 
If you want to go drag racing then stick with the positive displacement blower. If you want to go road racing then go turbo or centrifugal.
 
CMac89 said:
If you want to go drag racing then stick with the positive displacement blower. If you want to go road racing then go turbo or centrifugal.

Tell that to the Grand National crowd.
 
Parker Dean said:
Tell that to the Grand National crowd.
Doesn't mean you can't make turbo cars fast, but how do you know that a positive displacement blower of the same CFM capabilities won't be better.

I know what's better because I see these cars in comparison EVERY weekend.
 
xThunderbirdSCx said:
if this kid doing his turbo setup pulls through and makes some good numbers, i know where ill be headed (to a turbo)


You guys crack me up. To begin a successful turbo application you must first master some basic engine building theory and tuning procedures not to mention some fairly in depth installation and fabrication abilities. No offence to anyone here but most of you really have no idea what you are talking about.

You want to run a turbo? Then get yourself some engine tuning software/hardware and a WB02 meter and start tuning. When you have a good handle on how to manipulate your EEC with the M90 on it then you are ready to start talking about upgrading to a turbo. Ask anyone who has run a turbo on their SC how they did with tuning it. Oh ya, no one has done it yet.

Sure you can take the car and get it tuned somewhere but unless you want to pay $450 every so often to compensate for a little change here or there, having someone tune the car for you is NOT a practical solution. Look at any of the successful turbo cars and find out how they handle tuning.

1) They pay someone a lot of money to get it right.

2) They learn how to do it themselves.

The problem with a turbo application is that your results, the turbo, the motor, and the tune are all interconnected and you can't seperate them. There is a whole learning curve that will need to come with the application of turbo's to the SC which has yet to be explored.

And don't tell me that is what I'm here for. :p I dont' mind helping anyone who wants help but I'm not about to take responsibility for the success or failure of anyone's turbo project. I'm not trying to get off track here but I have noticed a real trend with SC owners that they want to bolt things on and go fast but extremely few have taken on the responsibility to learn how to tune their own cars. This is something that I feel really needs to happen if anyone is serious about performance.

I learned this the hard with with the AR kits. These were basically bolt on kits with all the same basic characteristics of the M90. They are really easy to tune. However, because the blower by virtue of it's boost capability requires bigger injectors and less ignition timing than a typical M90, I included a chip with each kit to accomplish these necessary changes. I thought I was providing a service. Boy was I wrong. As soon as I provided a chip with those changes, suddenly I was responsible for any and all reasons why the car didn't run. When the end user doesn't understand or have the ability to manipulate the program then there is a never-ending cycle of "it won't run" and "something's wrong". Been there done that and not going that direction any more! The only AR's that performed to expectations are ones that I tuned hands on. Think about that for a moment. I think you'll find the same thing with a turbo only possibly to a higher degree. If you can't tune it then don't even think about it (well, unless you plan to send the car to someone and have it delivered back to you turn-key). Notice the $7K price tag on Ralph's Vortec kit before you think you want to go that route.

Ask Chris Lazzo or David Neibert how much fun their turbo kits have been so far. They paid similar price tags for their kits. I'm not negative about turbo's, but I think I'm being realistic when I say that only someone who has the fabrication capabilities and tuning knowledge/hardware to put the whole thing together should even consider it.

A kit is hardly a decent option either. If someone goes through the effort to put together a kit that you install at home, who is going to get it running for you? 8 out of 10 says it won't run right out of the box. So how is company "A" going to market a kit when they can't guarantee that it is going to even run? I would have thought that it wouldn't be that hard, but so far my simple bolt on AR kit is running a pretty low % rate of delivered to running well ratio. Think about that. I can see it now. $5k turbo kit with a 10% running ratio. Boy that would be some bad press to overcome!
 
XR7 Dave said:
You guys crack me up. To begin a successful turbo application you must first master some basic engine building theory and tuning procedures not to mention some fairly in depth installation and fabrication abilities. No offence to anyone here but most of you really have no idea what you are talking about.

You want to run a turbo? Then get yourself some engine tuning software/hardware and a WB02 meter and start tuning. When you have a good handle on how to manipulate your EEC with the M90 on it then you are ready to start talking about upgrading to a turbo. Ask anyone who has run a turbo on their SC how they did with tuning it. Oh ya, no one has done it yet.

Sure you can take the car and get it tuned somewhere but unless you want to pay $450 every so often to compensate for a little change here or there, having someone tune the car for you is NOT a practical solution. Look at any of the successful turbo cars and find out how they handle tuning.

1) They pay someone a lot of money to get it right.

2) They learn how to do it themselves.

The problem with a turbo application is that your results, the turbo, the motor, and the tune are all interconnected and you can't seperate them. There is a whole learning curve that will need to come with the application of turbo's to the SC which has yet to be explored.

And don't tell me that is what I'm here for. :p I dont' mind helping anyone who wants help but I'm not about to take responsibility for the success or failure of anyone's turbo project. I'm not trying to get off track here but I have noticed a real trend with SC owners that they want to bolt things on and go fast but extremely few have taken on the responsibility to learn how to tune their own cars. This is something that I feel really needs to happen if anyone is serious about performance.

I learned this the hard with with the AR kits. These were basically bolt on kits with all the same basic characteristics of the M90. They are really easy to tune. However, because the blower by virtue of it's boost capability requires bigger injectors and less ignition timing than a typical M90, I included a chip with each kit to accomplish these necessary changes. I thought I was providing a service. Boy was I wrong. As soon as I provided a chip with those changes, suddenly I was responsible for any and all reasons why the car didn't run. When the end user doesn't understand or have the ability to manipulate the program then there is a never-ending cycle of "it won't run" and "something's wrong". Been there done that and not going that direction any more! The only AR's that performed to expectations are ones that I tuned hands on. Think about that for a moment. I think you'll find the same thing with a turbo only possibly to a higher degree. If you can't tune it then don't even think about it (well, unless you plan to send the car to someone and have it delivered back to you turn-key). Notice the $7K price tag on Ralph's Vortec kit before you think you want to go that route.

Ask Chris Lazzo or David Neibert how much fun their turbo kits have been so far. They paid similar price tags for their kits. I'm not negative about turbo's, but I think I'm being realistic when I say that only someone who has the fabrication capabilities and tuning knowledge/hardware to put the whole thing together should even consider it.

A kit is hardly a decent option either. If someone goes through the effort to put together a kit that you install at home, who is going to get it running for you? 8 out of 10 says it won't run right out of the box. So how is company "A" going to market a kit when they can't guarantee that it is going to even run? I would have thought that it wouldn't be that hard, but so far my simple bolt on AR kit is running a pretty low % rate of delivered to running well ratio. Think about that. I can see it now. $5k turbo kit with a 10% running ratio. Boy that would be some bad press to overcome!


i just got
pwned.jpg
 
Ask Chris Lazzo or David Neibert how much fun their turbo kits have been so far.

It hasn't been much fun up to this point, but I knew this was going to be a difficult project and I remain hopeful that it will be very fun in the not too distant future.

Had I gone with a milder combo (450-500 rwhp max) or just built a race car, it would have been a lot easier. But that wouldn't really be anything special, so I'll just keep going after my original goal.

David
 
I didn't post that to be negative about anyone's turbo plans or projects. I just want people to understand that a turbo is not the beginner's route to HP nirvana.

The turbo project that is ongoing now has some of those bases covered. The person doing the install has good knowledge of the car, has good fabrication abilities, a way of tuning the EEC, he has done his homework, and has another car to drive. ;)

What I think we should be talking about in this thread is what turbo would be a good one to start out with, one that uses a flange and physical orientation that can be used in upgraded form. In other words, what would be a good turbo to start out with that might work well with a more or less stock motor but be able to be "bolt-in" replaced with something capable of 600rhwp. What would be the best turbo to use that offers that kind of range of output and would match the airflow that the 3.8 is going to generate?

I for one wouldn't want to build a whole piping system and then find out that it won't work with the turbo I need to upgrade to and have to remake half my stuff. Or am I overcomplicating things?
 
Okay...lets see here...
Step 1) Get a turbo
Step 2) Get piping
Step 3) Oil line and return w/pump
Step 4) Get wide band O2
Step 5) Get a good carb
Step 6) Tune carb:D

Chris
 
I seriously have no idea why Chris or Dave are having problems with thier turbo projects. I have an old school bank frire DFI setup and my setup ran without a hiccup. 306 with a t76..No MAF of course. I will be upgrading soon to a newer FAST system however.

As far as running posative displacement vrs turbo..I was sold on turbos when I saw REAL small block ford engines running 2,000 rwhp. You guys should really check out the NMRA.
 
Damon,

I think the MAF is causing most of my tuning problems. Data logging shows real spikey readings at part throttle indicating turbulance. Not sure why because it's located on a section of intake pipe with several feet of straight pipe before the MAF. Might be because of the large size, I had to go with an 85mm C&L tuner MAF to keep from pegging it at max air flow.

David
 
I have actually heard of that on blow through designs. It was about 9 years ago and I could only imagine what they were talking about then. Damon does have a point though. The Speed Density systems will be a tad quicker on the crispness of the throttle with a calibrated inlet setup. The MAF will never give a bad reading nor will it cause a restriction.

David. This may sound stupid to you, but If you think you are getting turbulance in the MAF, Try sticking a tornado (I know but hear me out) in line. The tornado is just an example of course. I would try some kind of diffuser if I could not get a consistant reading though. I know you have a lot of room before the maf, but if it has a sharp turn right after it, and the tubing is sooo big, it could be causing the air to bypass the wires at lower speeds and when you get to part throttle, it could be just getting half of a reading. Have you tried turning it in the pipe to move the sensor?

Chris
 
I'm not participating in this to go on and on about turbo vs. supercharger. There are many rules in the NMRA that favor turbo's but that really isn't what this is about. If people want to adapt a turbo to fit onto an SC it needs to be something that is workable with the existing SC EMS and physical layout of the car. I'm interested in things like what aplvalydrtybird is doing. He is working on a semi bolt in replacement for the supercharger and looking for some results with a turbo sized for similar boost levels as your typical street SC.

I would like to see some people post what turbo's would work best and tell why they would chose a certain unit. I'd like to know what flanges to use and why etc. If people really want to build turbo applications for this car we should really get down to basics and put out some useful information.

We should be discussing what turbo to use and where to put it.
 
Dave is right about the tuning end.If you can,t tune or can't find
some one to tune.There is no sence in building a turbo system.

I have two turbos that I was going to fab the pluming and install
on a 3.8 motor. But have no idea on how to tune nor any one
that can tune a turbo system..So they have been setting
around the shop for a few years .

Same for superchargers. I have a MP III, & A/R. But cannot
get a tune so they are all worthless.Not because they are
not set up right.All are good products when installed and
used for there spec intened purpose.But with no tuning skills,
they are worthless parts.

I think I have the knowlege and skills to build a 600 hp plus
3.8 motor build up. But why do it with no tuning skills.
I have started selling my parts. Because of giving up on
getting a tune for a supercharger syle that came with
my SC Bird. After waiting Around going on four years for
a tune. And then buying the stuff to do my own tuning,
and not knowing how to use.Its just silly to even think
about finishing a turbo system.When I can't tune for the
superchargers I have.

Thanks Randy
 
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Before I go on....

So how is company "A" going to market a kit when they can't guarantee that it is going to even run? I would have thought that it wouldn't be that hard, but so far my simple bolt on AR kit is running a pretty low % rate of delivered to running well ratio.

You SON OF A @&*^@*&....I recall getting my hiney handed to me at the mere mention of asking if the AR kits tuning issues have been resolved. And here you go saying it! I dont want to hear crud from anyone next time I mention something. No I'm not mad but this is an example of stuff I mention and then get crud about me being full of crud and having no idea what I'm talking about. BTW I would expect a car to need tuning when bolting on a power adder with different dynamics then the on the car was originally meant for. It's expected and I would never blame Dave D for that.

About the NMRA.

Actually the NMRA uses many forms of restriction to assure its a fair game. However it will never be 100% fair. Keep in mind the NMRA was formed when Superchargers were the #1 power adder along with Nitrous. A buddy of mine back then built a twin turbo stang and was basically blacklisted from all events because of the twin turboes. Eventully turbo technology caught on. The rules are ever evolving. But if you can imagine a REAL 302 making that type of power its amazing. These are not Hemi based big cube monsters. It just blows me away.

Back to Turbo Discussion

I was thinking of going two turbo but after reviewing the engine bay and where I would need to put these things (and cost) I was thinking a single turbo setup. One based on my current v8 setup which is meant for the street and retains all accesories. Drivers side location near power steering pump.

Two idea come to mind.

#1 If I wanted a true bolt on kit for the SC. This would retain all SC brackets and accesories and use the factory SC lower. A modified return adapter would be made to mount the TB. Factory radiator would be used as well. A not so huge front mount IC would be included along with turbo header, crossover, downpipe, an alchy injection kit, a custom burnt chip, Maf and injectors. Of course the turbo, wastegate and BOV would be included. This would not in my mind be the ideal setup however it would require minimal custom fabrication if any on the part of the instaler. This kit would be a waste f someone was out to make huge power as they would be buying stuff that would eventually be updated or replaced. I would think 400rwhp would be obtainable

#2 Offer a race version. This would include the BOV, wastegate, turbo, header, crossover, downpipe, front mount IC, all plumbing and a custom upper.. What would be differnt here is that it would require the use of a N/A 3.8 lower use all N/A 3.8 accesories and a full lenght radiator. It would not come with a chip nor injectors as this is a race kit and that would be up to the builder to take care off.

#3 Offer just the hot side plumbing for the fabricator to do with as he wishes. Turbo header, crossover and downpipe. This way you can leave the rest of the kit to the installers imagination. Perhaps he wants to use factory SC accesories and intake but wants to go bigger on everything else. Who knows.

This is over simplifying the concepts but I could definately see a kit developed at a reasoble price.

If someone were to just build a quality turbo header/downpipe/crossover/ setup that would be a great start. The rest of the fabrication process is simple in comparison...Tuning will be a whole other subject.

Turboing an SC will take a little more effort then what the stang guys are doing because we have all this extra crud specifically for use of our SC. That is why Daves kit is so nice as it uses all these "extra" parts. To really make a clean turbo kit on an SC wed have to remove all that stuff and start from scratch. More effort. more time, more money. A turbo would not be an easy or cheap endevour, However if you can fabricate it yourself it will definately be a cost effective solution. I know of peopel making the same HP with a DIY turbo kit then one bought from a manufacturer. 1,500 total compared to 3,500-4000.

Anyway just throwing some ideas out there without getting technical..Maybe I can draw something up. I';ll see what I can do
 
Whenever it comes to an outrageous high performance motor that is put in drag racing you can't just look at what the motor makes at peak then "AWE" over it.

The Supercharged Pro Mod cars are making 2600HP with 550CI and the turbo Pro Mod cars are making 3100HP. At the exact same weight tell me why the Supercharged cars are running 6.00's and the fastest of the many turbo cars are running 6.20's still.

Hell, NHRA and IHRA Pro Stock run faster than them NMRA cars and they're naturally aspirated.
 
The Supercharged Pro Mod cars are making 2600HP with 550CI and the turbo Pro Mod cars are making 3100HP. At the exact same weight tell me why the Supercharged cars are running 6.00's and the fastest of the many turbo cars are running 6.20's still.

Ummmm ...Take a good look at what these top NMRA guys are running time wise with a REAL and I repeat REAL small block ford engine. 6.6's at 209mph in the Pro 5.0 class...Fun Ford Weekend 6.4's @ 223mph. Never did I say that there arent faster cars out there. But you have Fords....With REAL FORD motors....And still there are MAJOR restrictions slowing them down. Every year a rule change allowing a larger turbo or supercharger means more records broken. Its great stuff. When you are rooting for a Ford..Its really a ford! Thats what makes it great.

And the technology turbo wise gained through this helps us all. And it can all fit under the hood to boot. Not to mention being able to change your boost with the push of a button or turn of a knob from inside the car...While driving no less. 87 octane today......No problem. The combination of programable fuel injection and turboes gives you endless opportunities at streetable, tunable, horsepower. Something a large roots blower will never do.

Keep in mind my first ever "build" was a small block ford with a lil roots blower on top with nitrous and a preditor carb. It was a nice setup. My last was a turbo v8 setup...Times changed so did I. I can live in the past...But why when turbocharging really is the future:O)

And this thread is to furthe rinvestigate that option and to throw out ideas. Not argue about generic ProMod motors vrs Factory based Fords..Commone now!
 
Damon, let me point out that the supposed "tuning issues" with the AR's revolved entirely around mechanical problems with the cars. NOT the AR. You made it sound like the AR was causing all kinds of tuning issues when the fact is that it wasn't. I proved that by personally tuning several of the cars. Anyone who witnessed the tuning can tell you that to get an AR car right takes no more than 3 pulls on the dyno. I've logged 30 pulls on the dyno trying to tune an M90. Funny how much easier it is to tune when you have no detonation and no belt slip.

That same can't be said for the turbo car's I've worked with. Not saying that a turbo is impossible, but I am saying that I am aware of the tuning challenges that will be presented by the turbos. Just because a car "runs" doesn't mean it has tuned well or that it will perform up to expectations.

I'm sure we've all seen our share of turbo cars that have embarrased themselves at the track. I'd say for every glory pass there are 100 that didn't look so hot.

I also don't buy into the idea of "turning the boost up and down" at the flick of a switch either. You made reference to all the GN guys who have a habit of "cranking up the boost till she blows", but then you turn around and advocate the same thing here. I totally disagree with that philosophy. I've seen cars change more than a full point of AFR on the dyno just from a change of fuel. I sure wouldn't mess around with boost levels AND fuel source "on the fly". I think that is a completely stoopid idea.

Tune the car for a reasonable amount of boost and use your right foot for ultimate control. Always run good gas and NEVER use ethanol diluted fuel if the car wasn't tuned for it.

I'm looking at this from the back side. I've seen what happens to these motors when you aren't careful with what you do, and as the only tuner around here I've been blamed for more than my share of mishaps. Until we get a few more people around here that can talk tuning on a competent level these ideas of big HP are going to be just dreams and rare occurances. I'm trying to keep things on a realistic level for people who might actually have the ability to deal with a turbo setup.

It starts with tuning and people are going to have to learn how to tune. This means get a wide band O2 meter and some tuning software/hardware and tune your car! If you can't do that there is no way on earth you are going to get satisfactory performance out of a turbo.
 
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