No start, 50lb injectors, no codes, have spark and fuel...

sizemoremk

Registered User
Hey guys, I've just completed building a motor with 50lbers among other things, and am having a no start problem...

I had the eec-tuner hooked up with a baseline tne for my setup, but after no luck, I've removed it in hopes that it will start... It was previously in the car running fine just controling the fan on and off stuff.

Dave Neibert said his car "ran" with the 50s without the tuner... So I thought I'd try it that way...

Anywyas, I was wondering if anyone had any ideas???

I've got spark and fuel, spark verified by timing light on each plug wire; and fuel verified just under 40 by a fuel pressure guage.

I've pulled the codes and no problems; swapped, cleaned, swapped, and cleaned fouled plugs until I can do it in about a half hour; pulled the spout connector, put it back in, unhooked the MAF, sprayed plenty of starting fluid; check the harnesses and plug wires several times, swapped battaries and spare starters several times, and have only gotten it to start very sporadiaclly...

The couple of times it did start were probably flukes but it will only start or almost start when the maf is disconnected.

Sometimes if I go to part throttle when trying to start it would fire... Also seems like it might try to start a little more if I turn the key on and off a couple of time to get the fuel pressure compeltly built up... This leads me to wonder if one of the brand new 50lbers is leaking down. I did notice that the fuel pressure will drop a few pounds if I let it sit for an hour or so, but I don't know if this is normal or not...

I did use the cam sync tool when installing the cam sensor, and I am sure it was on the compression stroke when I set it.

I do not get the upshift light during cranking.

I did degree the cam when i installed it, and it is 1 degree retarded.

I do have a ground on both sides of the engine, and the ground from the motor mount to battery cable has an extra cable going to a good chasis ground as well.

Any ideas??

I have updated my member page to reflect the current state of mods...
 
Last edited:
Do you have another computer you can try in it? Just may be that your eec took a crap.

Hope ya get it runnin'. Keep us updated.
 
sizemoremk,

Your PM box is full and I can't respond until you empty some. BTW, did you try starting it without the EEC tuner attached ? If not please do.

David
 
Last edited:
also...Pull a plug and see if its fouled..I have a feeling they are at this point.

WHat is your MAf calibrated for?..RUnning without EEC tuner and an improperly calibrated setup is going to definitely load up...And everytime you key on you spray fuel into the cylinders...

Pull a plug
 
No dice thus far with the eec tuner disconnected, but I didn't have any new plugs and the parts store was outta plugs...

Walmart has the autolite 103s, so I'll get a set or two. It was suggested to me today to "file the ground electrode back so it only covers half the center electrode and file the sides and front of the ground electrode to a sharp edge." Said that could prevent fouling the plugs till I get figured out.


My PM box has some room now...

The eec was connected with a "baseline" file with input from a couple of memebers now, and I think the prolem is elsewhere...
 
The problem is with....

The injector sizing cannot be done the way you think in the EEC tuner. You must calculate the high and low slope of the injector in the tuner file. David Dalke was talking to me about this on another car he was doing this past weekend.

David Neibert I do believe knows the procedure and clean out your PM box so that you can receive PM's again. Not that I don't want to give the info out, I don't want people running trying this and blowing up motors if not done right.

What year is the car???? I need to know the injector STOCK SIZE.

Then you can get it running.

Don't quote me on this, I do believe that you divide the stock injector size by the new injector size (IE: 36/50=.72). Then multiply the high and low slope values by this number and input into runer. Im not sure if you have to do the same with engine displacement...I do believe so....

This should at least get the car running.

I am pretty sure this is it. PLEASE VERIFY THIS BEFORE RUNNING THE CAR!!!

I'm no tuning expert, I just know enough to do basic stuff.


Don
 
Also take a 194 mini bulb and bend the wires back, stick the wires in the injector harness if it flashes your injectors are firing if not than they aren't
 
lube70 said:
The injector sizing cannot be done the way you think in the EEC tuner. You must calculate the high and low slope of the injector in the tuner file. David Dalke was talking to me about this on another car he was doing this past weekend.

David Neibert I do believe knows the procedure and clean out your PM box so that you can receive PM's again. Not that I don't want to give the info out, I don't want people running trying this and blowing up motors if not done right.

What year is the car???? I need to know the injector STOCK SIZE.

Then you can get it running.

Don't quote me on this, I do believe that you divide the stock injector size by the new injector size (IE: 36/50=.72). Then multiply the high and low slope values by this number and input into runer. Im not sure if you have to do the same with engine displacement...I do believe so....

This should at least get the car running.

I am pretty sure this is it. PLEASE VERIFY THIS BEFORE RUNNING THE CAR!!!

I'm no tuning expert, I just know enough to do basic stuff.


Don
That is how it was before, the 30/50=.6 multiplied by the original pulsewidth.
But this was for the "Crank Fuel Pulsewidth vs Coolant temp" The same thing for displacement... I didn;t see any chages for slope....

I also tried dialing the crank fuel pulse down a little more to .5 just for kicks. Because to me, it acts like the engine is getting flooded immediately... Not sure if I described this before in this thread (I've had several conversations going on) but the engine cranks "more freely" if I go WOT during crank to clear it out (this shuts off the injectors for those that may not be aware); but it cranks alot more sluggishly when the throtle is closed.

Another idea with the tuner suggested by another member, was to change all of the idle speed control parameters to the same values, so it wouldn't attempt to make corrections when trying to get the idle figured out.

Now there is spark, not sure how much, or if it is perfect, but the timing light on each wire verifies that they are firing... until the plugs get fouled, then it fires sporadically. I'm acutally thinking of getting new higher end wires on he way home... I am using autolite proefessional series wires, but I bent the connector in one of the boots last night and had to replace one with an old one... And I can't go buy just one wire.

It has started twice, both times with the MAF disconnected and when the eec tuner was connected. When it did, the fuel in the open garage was enough to make my eyes water for abotu 5 minutes. The first time it stared, I let it idle at 600ish RPM, very rich, until I tried to blip the throttle after about 1-2 minutes, and it died again. The other time it started for about a minute, extremely rich again, and idled smoothly at 3000 RPM, but that was because the TV linkage was not hooked up yet, and it got caught in the throttle:eek: But the few times it did start, it seemed very peppy with the throttle, and smoth, after the initial higher reving hiccup.

All this makes me think either there is a leaky injector, or they are loading up immediately on cranking... I assume the only way to find out if one is leaking is to remove the fuel rail.

Another guy with 50lbers said that his car was hard to start without the tuner plugged in, as they would load up. So there seems to be enough differences between setups that one might "run" withtout the tuner and another might not:confused:

I had no luck last night after removing the tuner, so its going back in and I've also got a few eec tuner discussions going, so hopefully I can get it figured out. I am working on documenting the process for tuning it, unless any of the info is deemed "proprietary" or anything, I'll share as much as possible.

Even if this ends up being a stuck injector or bad DIS, etc, etc. Understanding the initial tunig process through getting the opened and closed loop AFRs dialed in would be good for all of us!

Man, how I look forward to putting yet another new set of plugs in that thing:mad:

I'll ask again, in this context, would gapping down to .035 not get it started a little easier?
 
Last edited:
No...gapping the plugs tighter probably won't help, but won't hurt either.

It's normal for fuel pressure to gradually bleed down after the pump stops. If an injector was hung open the pressure would fall to zero within a few seconds. When the pumps stops it only takes a small volume of fuel leakage for the pressure to drop dramaticly.

I still think it's an ignition problem. Here are a few things to check/test that will help to narrow down the problem.

I noticed you mentioned using a pro products TB earlier, so I'll assume you installed the throttle position sensor. Test the voltage and verify is has about .95-.99 at idle and gradually increases to something like 4.5 volts when throttle is fully open.


Try unplugging the cam sensor and crank it for about 5 seconds....then stop for about 30 seconds....then crank again for 5 seconds....if it still hasn't started then repeat the process one more time. When you installed the cam sensor stalk using the positioning tool what position was the crank located ? Many people think it's supposed to be at TDC on the #1 compression stroke, but that's not correct.

Also while your in that area, inspect the wire going down to the crank sensor to make sure it's not rubbing on the blower belt. Are you certian that the crank sensor was properly positioned and clearanced from the reluctor wheel before trying to start the car ? Clearance should be about the thickness of a matchbook cover. It shouldn't be getting spark if the sensor was damaged but it might be worth looking at.

While the plugs are out, test for compression. This will rule out a mechanical problem with the cam, valves ect..You should be getting about 150 psi.

If none of that stuff yeilds any good results, I would change the DIS module.

David
 
Thanks for the ideas, but unfortunately I've checked about all that except changing the DIS, but all that worked fine before I took it apart:(

Good to know that the fuel pressure is OK, and not leaking down, but I got a cheap guage, so I'm not 100% convinced yet. I hear a spraying noise when the fuel pump comes on sometimes, but I assume that is the fuel returning past the FPR to the tank... Another thing in the back of my head, I don't ever remember hearing this spraying sound before...

I did get a backfire once when I removed the cam sensor... I assume that sort of thing will happen... But there again, my plugs get so fouled I don't know what was because of fouled plugs or something else:confused: :confused: :confused: :mad: :confused: :( :confused:

The cam sensor was installed at 26 degrees ATDC on the compression stroke using the tool. I wonder if maybe I don't have the orientation correct? I guess I can post a pic... to see what ya'll think.

Also, already adjusted the TPS sensor with the meter.

No shift light during crank either, and have visually reinspected the crank sensor.

Like I say, I get no codes... after I cleared up the tps code...

I was fixin to put the compression tester on it last night, but was somehow distracted. I am fairly sure they're gonna come out good, the cyl walls still looked great and I didn't really touch the bottom end. But I will do a couple just in case this evening...

Guess I'll run that check ont he DIS module...

One more idea I seen on a general engine building board a guy suggested I go a coupel ranges hotter until i get the issues striagtened out. Anyone have an opinion on this idea? I assume 105-105 are the hotter steps of the autolite103 plug?
 
No matter what you do..If you fouled your plugs..Its not going to start..Also if you throw 50's in as I had said with an improperly calibrated MAF I would expect it to run very poorly at the very best without the proper tune. You havnt stated what teh MAF is calibrated for. Just pull a plug as its easy enough to rule that issue out. ..I'm going to stop talking to myself now. Good luck
 
I do have the proper (red) sample tube for 50s according to Dave Dalkeand C&L. C&L is actually down the road from me, I (well the wife) got it directly from the C&L shop.

As for the plugs, in the original post, I did indicate that I've changed plugs various times, due to fouling of course.... It keeps fouling them up!

I've seen a couple of accusations pointing to the DIS module, even though there is spark??? Might have to find one just in case.
 
sizemoremk said:
I do have the proper (red) sample tube for 50s according to Dave Dalkeand C&L. C&L is actually down the road from me, I (well the wife) got it directly from the C&L shop.
Verify this by measuring the ID of the tube at both ends please.

Paul
 
GOT THE SOB STARTED!

Man it sounds baaaaaad-ase!!!!

The tone is awesome!

Unplugged the cam sensor and tried severl times with light throttle during crank, and it fired up.

Kinda wanted to idle real low, and was really rich, but that could have also been some of the gas hanging around in the mufflers.

So, is it 180 out like Paul suggested, or is it bad? Man I hope it is bad:eek: I don't wanna take all that crap down again:( I already gotta spare, but I guess its 180 out, but I would have bet $100 I installed it on the compression stroke...

Also, can someone verify the orientation of my cam sensor in the pics below. Pardon the dirty engine bay, it was fairly clean before I smudged it all up with dirty fingers, and messed with the wiring up, and had to spray the fire extinquisher in there:eek:

Well I'm sure I'll have more questions tomorrow... time to wind down and enjoy an episode of family guy:D
 

Attachments

  • 1.JPG
    1.JPG
    244.9 KB · Views: 73
  • 2.JPG
    2.JPG
    256.3 KB · Views: 74
  • 3.JPG
    3.JPG
    242.5 KB · Views: 79
AWESOME!!!!! Glad to see ya got er figured out and got it runnin.

Just a thought here. If ya still have a set of the fouled plugs layin around... would you be willing to put them back in and try em just to see if they will work after being fuel soaked? Like I said before (in your other thread when we were discussing whether or not fouled plugs were JUNK or NOT), I PERSONALLY have found that once they have been fouled or fuel soaked from flooding the engine, they were no good after that. However, it would be nice to see what you find out with yours.

I wouldn't blame ya a bit if you said no friggin way because I know they are a pain in the arse to change, but if ya feel like messin with it....

One other thing to think about too.......... Make sure you change that oil right away as there is quite likely a LOT of gas in it from trying to start it so many times and repeatedly flooding it. You probably already knew that, but JUST IN CASE (or for anyone else having the same problems that finds this thread later on).
 
sizemoremk said:
GOT THE SOB STARTED!

Man it sounds baaaaaad-ase!!!!

The tone is awesome!

Unplugged the cam sensor and tried severl times with light throttle during crank, and it fired up.

Kinda wanted to idle real low, and was really rich, but that could have also been some of the gas hanging around in the mufflers.

So, is it 180 out like Paul suggested, or is it bad? Man I hope it is bad:eek: I don't wanna take all that crap down again:( I already gotta spare, but I guess its 180 out, but I would have bet $100 I installed it on the compression stroke...

Also, can someone verify the orientation of my cam sensor in the pics below. Pardon the dirty engine bay, it was fairly clean before I smudged it all up with dirty fingers, and messed with the wiring up, and had to spray the fire extinquisher in there:eek:

Well I'm sure I'll have more questions tomorrow... time to wind down and enjoy an episode of family guy:D

The position of the sensor looks fine, but that doesn't really mean much. It's just supposed to be pointing that way to clear the belt and be reachable with the wiring harness.

What really matters is that the positioning tool holds the reluctor wheel in the correct position relative to the sensor while the crank is positioned at 26 degrees after top dead center on the compression stroke of cylinder #1.

To determine if the stalk needs to be pulled and re-installed you need to put the crank in the correct position (as described above) and remove the sensor to see where the reluctor is positioned. If the positioning tool can't be installed by rotating the stalk a little in either direction, then your going to have to pull it. It should look like this if it's installed correctly.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6839&d=1085890709

David
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I guess this evening, I'll fix the cam position problem, and put some new walmart oil in it. That is some brand new penzoil I'm gonna have to throw out:(

I am pretty sure the plugs that finally started were fouled, as I went out after about 1:00 in the morning, after quite a bit of trying earlier...

However I am intersted to know this as well, so I'll plug them bastages back in just to see...

I see people swearing both ways right now. If they won't fire, I'll get one of those Harborfreight spark plug cleaners, then try em... I've done it prolly a dozen times in the last week, a time or two more won't hurt... I already need new plugwires, I bent the mess outta one of the boots. so I might get some accell wires or sumthin... Anyone use those?
 
Back
Top