Once again Car and Driver prove once again that they are elitist snobs.

[XR7 Dave]

The $67K Z06 kicks the tail off of the Germans and Italians and still ranks 3rd. How do they do that?

Exerpts from the race track notes "Porsche matches the Corvette" on this corner, the F430 "nearly keep(s) pace with the Z06", the Vette "blows off" both of them on acceleration, was able to "brake later than the others" and it gains "half a second" on the straight". So they compare the other cars to the Corvette on every note but in the end running 1.3 seconds faster than the AWD Porsche is still reason to place it 3rd.

Let's see, in the objective catagories:

Price: Z06
Braking: Z06
Lap time: Z06
Cornering: Z06
Top speed: Z06
0-150: Z06
1/4 mile: Z06
Fuel mileage: Z06
Interior cruise noise level: Z06

The only place the Z06 got beat was standing start acceleration (gotta love AWD) and top gear acceleration (gotta love the 50% OD 6th gear).

Interesting though how the smallest engine got the worst gas mileage and the biggest one got the best. :rolleyes:

Ok, everything else aside, I just can't see how in a search for the "Ultimate Sports Car" performance takes a back seat to comfort and convenience. Wild. :eek:

[Blk89TBSC]

Interesting though how the smallest engine got the worst gas mileage and the biggest one got the best. :rolleyes:


Dave,

Only reason the Z06 gets good gas mileage is because of the .50 6th gear. The Ferrari's gearing is suited to it's engine's powerband. Don't you think the ferrari would get good mileage with the Z06's tranny?

F430's gearing :

1st : 3.29
2nd : 2.16
3rd : 1.61
4th : 1.27
5th : 1.03
6th : .82

FDR : 4.30:1

Z06's gearing :

1st : 2.66
2nd : 1.78
3rd : 1.30
4th : 1.00
5th : .75
6th : .50

FDR : 3.42

I LOVE the Z06 but if i had the money i would buy a F430 in a heartbeat. Ferrari's exhaust note gives me an orgasm. :D

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I LOVE the Z06 but if i had the money i would buy a F430 in a heartbeat. Ferrari's exhaust note gives me an orgasm.

Dam your easy... haha

Seriously though the one difference between an under 100,000 car and an over 100,000 car is refinement. Being I havnt driven all of them I cant say. But numbers arnt everything.

I can make a fox body stang out handle, outbrake, out accelerate a brand spankin new zo6 vette....But the numbers arnt everything..Ya know

[XR7 Dave]

$100,000 difference in price and a good vew of Z06 tail lights and you guys talk to me about refinement? Ok. They refined themselves right into someone's rear view mirror.

Truth is the Europeans are embarrassed. Ferrari wouldn't even provide a car for them to test because they knew they would get beaten by the plastic American car. IMO Car and Driver put the Vette last just to keep from pissing off the wrong people. What a joke. Kind of like when the Mustang "beat" the GTO.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

What a joke. Kind of like when the Mustang "beat" the GTO.


Dave thats pretty Ironic..Being the GTO is suppossedly the refined car in that case...And the more expensive one....

[Blk89TBSC]

$100,000 difference in price and a good vew of Z06 tail lights and you guys talk to me about refinement? Ok. They refined themselves right into someone's rear view mirror.

If you were driving a Ferrari F430 and a Z06 smoked you. Would you really care that much? Ofcourse not. You're driving a ~~~~ ferrari.

Ferrari doesn't build vehicles just to go fast. They build them to do everything great.

While i do like the Z06. It's a POS compared to the ferrari.

Build quality - Ferrari
Interior - Ferrari
Exterior - Ferrari
Herritage - FERRARI

Do us all a favor and stop the whole "Brand loyal to american cars" bs. :D

Next your going to tell me about how much better the Ford GT is compared to the Enzo.

EDIT - You want to compare a ferrari to the Z06? Try this one...

F430 Stradale. 490 horsepower and a 2600lb curb weight. 600lbs less then a production ferrari F430

http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/frankfurt/0509_frankfurt_019+2006_ferrari_f430_challenge+fro nt_right_view.jpg
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/frankfurt/0509_frankfurt_059+2006_ferrari_f430_challenge+eng ine_view.jpg
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/frankfurt/0509_frankfurt_049+2006_ferrari_f430_challenge+fro nt_interior_view.jpg

[jackpriceisgod]

so basically you guys would just buy a car for its name

answer this:

would you go to abercrombie and fitch to buy a plain white t-shirt for 50 dollars, or go somewhere elseto buy 3 for 10?


true numbers arent everything, but withthat price difference, the numbers do mena a lot- the ferrari is a status symbol. only reason people would buy one is to say "look at me im rich". because only the rich can afford one.

[Blk89TBSC]

so basically you guys would just buy a car for its name

I buy a car because i like it not because of the name. I won't lie tho. I've always loved ferrari's ever since i was a child and hope someday to be able to afford one.

[XR7 Dave]

EDIT - You want to compare a ferrari to the Z06? Try this one...

F430 Stradale. 490 horsepower and a 2600lb curb weight. 600lbs less then a production ferrari F430


You forgot to mention the $227,000 price tag on that one. What was your point anyway? At least I had one. :p :D

[XR7 Dave]

Dave thats pretty Ironic..Being the GTO is suppossedly the refined car in that case...And the more expensive one....

Nothing ironic about it. The Mustang had already been chosen for awards by the staff. Wouldn't look good if their award winner got beaten by last year's GTO now would it?

Oh well, at least they do post the numbers. :)

[The_Ghost]

Build quality?!
You talk about Ferrari build quality?

Have you ever seen the paint or interior of an F40? The paint is so thin you can see the carbon fiber right through it and the interior is held together with this ~~~~~~ green glue that's oozing from all the seams. It's garbage, and sure it saves a minimal amount of weight but the overall effect is that it makes the car look like ~~~ when you're actually inside one.

With most people, they imagine a Ferrari or Lamborghini as being something untouchable and it's such a far off dream we imagine it as being better than it actually is/was. Hence the saying "never meet your childhood heroes".
See the Lamborghini episode of a BBC show called "TOP GEAR", you can find it on any bittorrent site, and watch the review of the Lambo Countach done by James May.

I, personally, enjoy having a car that cost less and will embarass more expensive cars. Ideally, I'd like to have a 71' widebody 240Z with a RB26DETT in the thing, and it would kill anything on the road, including GSXR 1000s. And this could be acheived in comfortable, streetable trim. Another fantastic option would be an Elise, which would be substantially smaller but is much newer.

I don't like Porsche because the engine is in the wrong place, it's supposed to be in either the front or middle of the car, not the back, and I despise the Coxster.

The Z06 is a fantastic car, hands down, and it is unfortunate that C&D chooses to be biased when their own article clearly points out who the winner was. (see the Hot Lap times of the aforementioned program, Top Gear, the new Z06 edged out quiet a number of cars from the hot lap board). After hearing the exhaust note of one being driven by a racing driver at the Chevy Rev It Up event last weekend, I was floored. I wasn't all that impressed with the regular-~~~ Vette I drove but the Z06 seemed to be an entirely different animal, and I'm all for it.

I think it is about time that affordable speed was available, and the fact that the z06 beats out the more expensive contenders is a testament to the fact that GM has come a long way since the C5, and finally figured out the Nurburgring is the place to test.

There is still one thing the Vette has been missing since the ZR1, though, and this is what makes me sad:
The Vette still has PUSHRODS... Why don't we have a 7.0L Twin-Dual-Cam V8?

Outside of that, I am very pleased with the new vette and am greatly looking forward to the Blue Devil. Ford, however has been nothing but a disappointment with the ~~~~~~ live axle that the Shelby has been stuck with. Why don't we have IRS in mustangs any more? :( I'd really love to see the Mustang with a MODERN suspension setup, not the antiquated live axle nonsense it has now.

Rant over.
Ghost

[Tony8470]

I don't think watching videos constitutes your personal knowledge. :p I have personally seen an f40 inside and out. Yes they arent the most luxurious cars, but they werent built for that. Buy a 360 and you will get that. The corvette is pretty much representative of what america is. In your face, powerful, and just enough work put into it to get the job done. That being said chevy doent put too much into luxury and build quality. I have seen some newer models that have a slightly higher standard. But no where near european design. For example what I've read is that the HUD on the vette is in no way accurate.....why bother? Then again all car makes and models cater to their specific groups of people. The z06 is an affordable supercar. It's labeled for a reason, you have to cut corners to make it that way.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Wow, I'm not certain I want to get involved in this ... but I will. :p

Every once in a while we as Americans decide to poke our head out and take on the Big Guns of Europe. Do we honestly believe as auto manufactures that we are building better more refined automobiles? NO! Do we build the best machine we can just to go out, spank one or two of the Big Guns at a few things then hoot and holler about it? HECK YEAH! We did it with the GT40, the New GT, AC Cobra, the Z06 etc etc right on down the line.

Don't confuse a Ferrari with a Rolls, because its not, but is a Ferrari nicer then a Z06? Without a doubt YES. Just because something is faster doesn't mean its better, or we would be driving something other then SC's.

The Europeans have a different way of designing suspensions and chassis that we just do not (be it can not or will not) duplicate. Go look at the spring rates on a BMW and see how well they handle. Here we always want to go UP in spring rates ... that’s not always the proper way to get things done. And most of us realize there is a difference in “works” and “proper”.

Bottom line the Ferrari is more about Fineness, and the Z06 is more about grabbing your crotch and screaming yeah haw. Which one is better? Honestly, I wouldn’t want to drive a Z06 for more then a short trip. Yes I HAVE driven, modified, and taken a Z06 around a track. I have also taken a few higher end European cars around a race track. As Damon stated, there is more to the way a car goes around a track then its static numbers, and quite frankly, the Europeans have us beat.

[XR7inWI]

Wow, I'm not certain I want to get involved in this ... but I will. :p

Every once in a while we as Americans decide to poke our head out and take on the Big Guns of Europe. Do we honestly believe as auto manufactures that we are building better more refined automobiles? NO! Do we build the best machine we can just to go out, spank one or two of the Big Guns at a few things then hoot and holler about it? HECK YEAH! We did it with the GT40, the New GT, AC Cobra, the Z06 etc etc right on down the line.

Don't confuse a Ferrari with a Rolls, because its not, but is a Ferrari nicer then a Z06? Without a doubt YES. Just because something is faster doesn't mean its better, or we would be driving something other then SC's.

The Europeans have a different way of designing suspensions and chassis that we just do not (be it can not or will not) duplicate. Go look at the spring rates on a BMW and see how well they handle. Here we always want to go UP in spring rates ... that’s not always the proper way to get things done. And most of us realize there is a difference in “works” and “proper”.

Bottom line the Ferrari is more about Fineness, and the Z06 is more about grabbing your crotch and screaming yeah haw. Which one is better? Honestly, I wouldn’t want to drive a Z06 for more then a short trip. Yes I HAVE driven, modified, and taken a Z06 around a track. I have also taken a few higher end European cars around a race track. As Damon stated, there is more to the way a car goes around a track then its static numbers, and quite frankly, the Europeans have us beat.

Removed by Admin

:D :D

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Thanks for calling me an ~~~~~~~ there tracy, not everyone here knows that yet; though sometimes we all have to wake up and realise what the truth is. :D

Be it about cars, or personallity.

[XR7inWI]

Thanks for calling me an ~~~~~~~ there tracy, not everyone here knows that yet; though sometimes we all have to wake up and realise what the truth is. :D

Be it about cars, or personallity.
No problem.... glad I could help out.... :p :D

[CarlisleLandOwn]

No problem.... glad I could help out.... :p :D

I don't mind, most people are jealous of those with all the knowledge. Still doesn’t change the FACT that I’m usually right. :p

[SCreamin]

This is for the comment about the Ford GT vs. the Enzo....

let's not forget that the original GT40 was built for one reason and one reason only...when Enzo backed out of the deal to sell Ferrari to Ford; Ford went to Carol Shelby and asked for a car that would stomp them at their own game...Lemans... hence the GT40...which whooped the arses of everyone in the Lemans for 3 consecutive years... and the only reason that they didn't take it the 4th year, is b/c ford wanted a picture of all the GT40's finishing with each other...(so the story says)

When a show host, (can't remember which show on TV it was) had the chance to drive an original GT40 (blue and red, race spec) his comments were...

"that is by far the most violent car i have ever driven"

[ThunderDave]

I don't mind, most people are jealous of those with all the knowledge. Still doesn’t change the FACT that I’m usually right. :p

Once he thought he was wrong, but he was mistaken. :p ;) :D

[XR7 Dave]

It's not just my personal indignation that the American entry got snubbed. Look at the rating system if you prefer.

Porsche gets 5 free points for having a rear seat. Now the mere fact that the Porsche has one in this test of sports cars is irrelevant, but to give the Porsche a full 5 points for the thing suggests that it has all the ergonomics of a Cadillac. No more than 2 points should have been given in this case. Instead what they are saying is that the presence of a rear seat in a high end sports car could conceivably outweigh the effect of a front seat that rates a 5 out of 10.

Then when you have fuel economy ranging from 10-12mpg and both 11 and 12 mpg rate a 5 but 10mpg rates a 4, how do you figure that? Sounds like convenient use of rounding off to me.

What about engine NVH? Obviously I've not driven any of these cars but it seems to me that the loudest car in the bunch (from idle to redline) shouldn't REALLY get the highest NVH rating and certainly not a "10". I understand all about vibration etc. vs. sound, but it seems pretty clear that the authors prefered the sound of the Ferrari.

And once again the "gotta have it" factor won the day anyhow. The 7 point spread between the Ferrari and the Vette was taken up entirely in this catagory. C&D did the same thing a couple years ago with the C5 vs. 911 and they did it again in the Mustang vs. GTO test. It is clear that all the testing in the world doesn't really mean much because in the end the 1-2-3 ranking is dependent almost entirely on the subjective perceptions of the testers.

Clearly how a car responds and feels is important and it can't be summed up on paper with numbers but to allow journalists to make the decision on what constitutes good vs. great is a real dissapointment. It would be nice if the magazine would hire a real race car driver to test the cars, then offer a professional opinion giving that equal weight along side their editors choice. But I know, that would require the writers to accept that their opinions may not be the ultimate authority in the matters and would require them to take direction from someone else which, in their arrogance, they would never accept.

[99GSXR750]

And once again the "gotta have it" factor won the day anyhow. The 7 point spread between the Ferrari and the Vette was taken up entirely in this catagory. C&D did the same thing a couple years ago with the C5 vs. 911 and they did it again in the Mustang vs. GTO test. It is clear that all the testing in the world doesn't really mean much because in the end the 1-2-3 ranking is dependent almost entirely on the subjective perceptions of the testers.


That's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading your first post.
Mike

[pablon2]

I subscribe to Motor Trend. Dropped C&D a few years ago. Don't really care for their tv show either. Hmmmm, media and politics....imagine that.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Do us all a favor and stop the whole "Brand loyal to american cars" bs.

Next your going to tell me about how much better the Ford GT is compared to the Enzo.

Listen.....Its more about the class of car.

The Ford GT was built to hang with the top over seas dogs. In all aspects and not just in RAW numbers.

I am very loyal to American brands to a Point. There are European cars that Americans manufacturers just have no interest in competing with. Ford actually made the jump and I consider the GT just as high end an Exotic as the rest of them. Bravo to them. And if you dont think the Ford GT is an Exotic....Take a good look at it. The Vette or The Viper certainly are not in the same class. Could GM or Chrysler build a car to compete...Heck Yah..They just havent.

Like I said. I can make a Mustang whip the crud out of Vette or a Viper or even a Ford GT or any of the European Exotics.....But at what cost? (And I am not talking $$) It will never be a GT..It will never be a viper...It will never even be a vette.

Thats the point

[The_Ghost]

It would be nice if the magazine would hire a real race car driver to test the cars, then offer a professional opinion giving that equal weight along side their editors choice.

See Top Gear, and every car that's brought in is tested by their professional race driver, called 'the stig', and the lap times are run on the same course in as close to identical conditions as possible (since it is not always possible to wait for it to quit raining before doing a lap).


Here is a short list of the power lap times.
car time driver episode (ep/season)
Aston Martin DBR9 1.08.6 White 6x6
Maserati MC12 1.18.9 white 6x2
Ferrari Enzo 1.19.0 White 5x2
Ariel Atom 1.19.5 White 5x9
Radical SR3 1.19.8 Black 1x9
Carrera GT 1.19.8 White 4x4
McMerc 1.20.9 White 4x2
Ford GT 1.21.9 White 4x8
Ferrari 360 CS 1.22.3 White 4x3
GT3 RS 1.22.3 White 4x3
Westfield XTR2 1.22.6 Black 1x3
Ferrari F430 1.22.9 White 6x8
Ferrari F430 spyder 1.23.2 white 6x8
Murcielago 1.23.7 White 3x4
Zonda 1.23.8 Black
Kooennoennioeggoennnisssoeuggooueeng 1.23.9 Black 2x7
Ariel R400 1.24.0 Black
TVR Sagaris 1.24.6 White 6x7
TVR Tuscan 2 1.24.8 White 5x3
EVO FQ 400 1.24.8 White 5x7
Noble 3.0 1.25 Black
Caterham R400 1.25.0 Black
Lambo Gallardo 1.25.8 W White 3x4
Morgan Aero 8 GTN 1.25.9 White 5x5
EVO VIII MR FQ 320 1.26 White 4x4
BMW M5 1.26.2 White 6x9
Lotus Exige 1.26.4 White 4x1
Ferrari 575 (GTC Handling pack) 1.26.8 White 5x4
Corvette 1.26.8 White 4x10
Merc CLS 55 AMG 1.26.9 White 6x1
Vanquish S 1.27.1 White 5x4
911 GT3 1.27.2 W White 3x1
Spyker C8 1.27.3 White 4x7
TVR 350C 1.27.5 Black
Wiesman 1.27.9 White 6x3
M3 CSL 1.28 W White 3x2
MTM Bimoto 1.28 Black 1x10
Lotus Elise Sport 190 1.28.2 Black
Dodge SRT10 (VIPER) 1.28.5 W White 5x3
MG SV 1.28.6 White 3x7
New Boxter 1.28.7 white 5x7
Porsche 911S (997) 1.28.9 W White 5x1
Mitsubishi EVO VIII 1.28.9 Black
BMW 645Ci 1.28.? White 4x5
Murcielago 1.29.0 W Black
Merc CL65 1.29.0 White 4x9
Alpina Z8 1.29 Black 2x3
ASONE 1.29 Black 1x10
Impreza Sti WRX WR-1 1.29.4 White 4x4
Alfa 3.7 GTA 1.30 White
Impreza STi 1.30.1 Black
Aston DB7GT 1.30.4 Black 2x4
Audi S4 1.30.9 Black
911 Turbo 1.31.0 W Black
Vauxhall VX Turbo 1.31.3 Black
NSX Type R 1.31.6 W White 3x9
BMW 535d 1.31.8 White 6x10
Mazda RX8 1.31.8 White 3x5
BMW M3 1.31.8 Black
Nissan 350Z 1.31.8 White
Focus RS 1.32.2 Black
Esprit V8 1.32.5 Black
TT V6 1.32.7 White 3x8
Honda Civic Type R 1.32.8 White 5x9
Jaguar E-Type 1.32.8 White 6x5
New SLK 1.32.9 White 5x7
Seat Leon Cupra 1.32.9 White 5x6
Vauxhall Astra VXR 1.33.0 White 6x9
Noble 1.33.1 W Black
SL AMG 55 1.33.2 W Black 1x6
Golf R32 1.33.3 Black
Cadillac CTS-V 1.33.4 W White 6x4
VW Golf GTi 1.33.7 White 5x6
Clio Cup 1.33.8 White 4x6
Focus RS 1.33.8 Black 1x2
Loser (Holden) 1.33.9 W White 3x6
Renault Megane 225 1.34.0 White 5x6
Mini S Works 1.34.2 White 5x6
MG ZT 260 1.35.0 White 4x5
S60R 1.35 Black 2x9
Ferrari 575 1.35.2 W Black 1x4
Alfa 147GTA 1.35.6 Black
Lotus Elise 111S 1.35.6 W Black
Citroen C4 VTS 1.35.8 White 5x6
Aston Vanq 1.36.2 W Black 1x4
Clio V6 1.36.2 W Black
Civic Type R 1.36.5 Black
Saab 9-5 HOT AERO 1.37.9 White 3x3
Honda Civic Type-R 1.38.06 Black 1x2
Mazzer 1.38.6 W Black
Subaru Impreza WRX 1.39 Black 1x2
Bowler 1.39.4 Black 2x1
Bentley Arnage 1.40.8 Black 1x5
James May's used Porsche 944 1.43 White 5x6
Hamster's used Porsche 924 1.44 White 5x6
Overfinch 1.44.0 Black 2x10
JC's used & abused Porsche 928 1.45 White 5x6
Aston Martin DB5 1.46.0 White 6x5

As you can see, the Vette's gotten pretty far up there, it was higher up a while ago, but more cars have been tested since.

As a second bit, Ford has dropped the ball with the GT, just look at how frequently their owners have to take them to the dealer, and the positively abysmal gas mileage.
That said, however,
it still looks fricken cool.

[Blk89TBSC]

Build quality?!
You talk about Ferrari build quality?

Have you ever seen the paint or interior of an F40?


The F40 was produced from 87-92. You really want to compare it to today's interior's? :rolleyes:

[Toms-SC]

Hi, may I join this bench racing please?

[The_Ghost]

The F40 was produced from 87-92. You really want to compare it to today's interior's? :rolleyes:

The thunderbird was produced from 89-97, and it has a much better put together interior. A gutted 240Z has a better interior than the F40.
Hell, the Pontiac Fiero GT has a better interior than the F40.
Would you want to spend $150k+ on a car that looks like it's been put together with gorilla glue??

Hi, may I join this bench racing please?
YES YOU CAN! :)

[turbospeed]

i remember watching a show in mtv , where they commented celebrities almost always had their brand new ferraris and lambos "detailed" which really ment spending another 10-15k in fit and finish and sometimes repainting.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I totally agree about how well the driver can actually drive..Just look at 1/4 times published by various C&D type magazines for the new gt500....Then look at what MM&FF produced. That goes without saying.

One thing to be said. A car that is hard to handle but handles well will get better numbers from an experienced driver then an inexperienced driver.

This would mean that if indeed a Vette a Viper or Lets say a GT500 was less refined then that an exotic the increase in numbers would be greater with a profesional driver.

[Blk89TBSC]

The thunderbird was produced from 89-97, and it has a much better put together interior. A gutted 240Z has a better interior than the F40.
Hell, the Pontiac Fiero GT has a better interior than the F40.
Would you want to spend $150k+ on a car that looks like it's been put together with gorilla glue??



:D

It was a racecar for god's sake.

[XR7 Dave]

I hear ya, I wasn't so much saying anything about the Vette compared to a Ferrari as I find it disturbing that the magazine people are eager to make the comparison, and equally as quick to dismiss the car as "not in the same league".

It's like they took great delight in showing how the Vette is superior to the GT500 and then turn around and show us how superior the Ferrari is to the Vette. It's a general condescending attitude that is very prevailant in their articles.

Anyway, coming from anyone whom I have ever heard having driven or ridden in a Z06 or even a C6 period, the car is amazing by our standards. Remember, most of us here drive MN12's and we think THEY are cool. :cool:

[442guy]

I have seen both the new z06 interior, and the last years ferrari interior 360 modenaand build quality up close.
Winner for seats and controls Ferrari the leather is beautiful controls nice and crisp F1 tranny flawless.

Body fitting paint and overall maintenance vette hands down.
The ferrari will likely never see over 50K on it's odometer without major rebuilds and replacements, the new z06 is already over 10k and the owner said it feels stronger now second set of tires already:D
I would buy th evette and have no problems running across the US. with the ferrari I would be sure never to be too far from a dealership when they break they break big

[mikeceli]

Ferrari's used to impress the heck out of me, until the shop I ran started working on them. Over priced to buy, over priced to maintain(like you would not believe) and they break with regularity, no American car owner would put up with.

For the better part of the last 53 years, Corvette has been the bang for the buck leader. Especially if you do what I did, buy a 20,000 mile 18 month old Corvette! Like new for thousands less.

God Bless America!

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Dave, I think you should write a letter. You know, explaning how you have never driven any of the cars tested, and never plan on actually purchasing any of them, but you think you know better then them. I'm sure it will go over well. :D

[Blk89TBSC]

Ferrari's used to impress the heck out of me, until the shop I ran started working on them. Over priced to buy, over priced to maintain(like you would not believe) and they break with regularity, no American car owner would put up with.

For the better part of the last 53 years, Corvette has been the bang for the buck leader. Especially if you do what I did, buy a 20,000 mile 18 month old Corvette! Like new for thousands less.

God Bless America!


I've seen a brand new 06 in the paper for 41K. Sticker was 50K

[Ddubb]

Ive driven quite a few cars back in 2000-2001 for customers. I loved the Corvette, auto was boring - Id almost rather drive my Tbird, but the manual Vette felt like a real performance car, it was awesome.
Drove a couple Ferraris .. the new one at that time had the Turbo V6 .. and the other one was a Testarossa, bought used for $80k - that was a great car and sounded very good.

Im not sure much has changed from then until now, they can only be better. My overall impression was that the Corvette was a great car all around, and I would love to buy one. The Ferrari was nice, but mostly for show. Interior was so plain and simple, it didnt feel like anything more than a race car.

As for working on them, Ive done quite a bit of work on earlier LT1 and LS1 Vettes and they are very easy. Never touched a Ferrari, but my buddy's machine shop has dealt with quite a few and they are more complicated than your everyday engine.

And as far as Car and Driver goes .. I wouldnt buy a car based on what they have to say. If you have money to spend, it really doesnt matter what you buy and you wouldnt care about maintenance or any other costs.

- Dan

[ThunderDave]

Remember, most of us here drive MN12's and we think THEY are cool. :cool:

They are C:cool: :cool:L Dave, they are C:cool: :cool:L !!!:D :cool:

[fturner]

I would buy th evette and have no problems running across the US. with the ferrari I would be sure never to be too far from a dealership when they break they break big

For reliability, I bought the Corolla... with a vette I'd still be worried and would like to know where the dealerships are for a cross country tour.

;)

Frit

[XR7 Dave]

Dave, I think you should write a letter. You know, explaning how you have never driven any of the cars tested, and never plan on actually purchasing any of them, but you think you know better then them. I'm sure it will go over well. :D

Actually, if you ever really READ some of the letters to Car and Driver, you would realize that those are the exact kind of letters they do print, if you can write them in witty enough prose. Sorry I'm not that good with words. Perhaps you should give it a try? :D

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

As always I disagree with almost everyone:O)

[Phil Kuhn]

XR7DAve,
I read that article last night and took it for what it was: A comparison.
Personally, I'd take the Z06 if I had the money.
I just can't see why you're so irritated by their review. :confused:

[XR7 Dave]

XR7DAve,
I just can't see why you're so irritated by their review. :confused:

Phil, just how irritated am I? Do I have the redass or just a mild itch? :confused:

[Phil Kuhn]

I dunno, but it sounds like a "Your problem" thing.
Gold Bond Medicated Lotion works well. :D

[XR7 Dave]

I dunno, but it sounds like a "Your problem" thing.
Gold Bond Medicated Lotion works well. :D LOL! I prefer the "H".

Anyway, I'm by far not the only one who feels that C&D did a disservice to all the cars. Of course the Ferrari should be in a different league because of it's price point but I think a lot of people feel that ranking them the way they did simply doesn't make sense. Here is a quote from a REAL 997TT owner:

For some Porsche owners, these test results contain some very positive aspects. In particular, the 997TT was the fastest to 100 mph . . . 1/2 second faster than the C6ZO6 and 1.6 seconds faster than the F430. Thereafter, the C6ZO6 appears to pull hard on the 997TT, catching it by approximately 120 mph, and putting 1.4 seconds on it by 150 mph. Quicker v. faster??? Given that most car owners spend the vast majority of their driving time below 100 mph, the quicker jump of the 997TT to 100 mph may be more desirable to some than the tremendous top end pull of the C6ZO6.

Arguably the most impressive aspect of the test results was the C6ZO6’s performance on the track. Absolutely awesome!!!

FWIW, I completely agree that the rankings should have emphasized the objective performance data far more than the amorphous, subjective factors that the reviewers relied upon to rank the C6ZO6 third. Based on the objective performance figures, the C6ZO6 clearly deserved a higher overall ranking.

[Ira R.]

I would respectfully point out that not causing controversy or raising the ire of your readership is not always good for selling magazines. That is, after all, what they are about, isn't it??

Ira

[CougarXR/7]

Way , Way back in the mid 60's car and driver used to be a good magazine................now for far too long they can do nothing but bitch about American cars. I have not purchased or read that crap magazine in decades.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Weather we like it or not we are all swayed in one way or another based on experiences, hear say, facts, falacies, peer pressure or plain ignorance of family members and freinds.

Very few of us can sit back and take a non biased standpoint.

I like American cars...Are there imports that are better?...Certainly..Are thier imports that are worse?...Of course. I base my liking of American cars solely because they are American..And knowing that I can find an American car that does what I need it to do makes looking at an import..Just not needed.

I like Fords specifically because It's what I choose to like. My parents wernt into cars at all and most people I knew growing up liked Chevies or Pontiacs. Heck my first car was a vw beetle convertable aka 1971(1914 CC, dual webers, cam.....) Second car was an 84 mustang notchback..Back when NOONE on the street had a quick mustang....Let alone a Notchback.... Heck I had people tell me I was driving a K CAR!.

I was always into being different (as in window licker different). I had a stang when hardly anyone had one by me. Can you even imagine noone having a stang????...I had a VW beetle ..WHo the hell had a Beetle ..NOONE my age...When stangs became popular I bought a Cougar....Oh thats a girls car I was told....Well nice of you to notice the back of my car because thats all you will be seeing I would say........And then of course there was the SC..My favorite car of all.

If I wanted easy back when I was a kid..Big block Malibu..But no....I had a stang....I even remeber when the Gt40 intake came out and the j302 aluminum heads..WOW..Performance for a FORD???...Then Paxton made an SC kit...WOW!.....It wasnt always so easy to go fast even with a 5.0....Noone was jumping on the 302 bandwagon because it was a FORD..Not a CHEVY....Yes times have changed since the late 80's.

One thing to keep in mind however is that all car manufacturers went through a revolution and found thier own niches....American car companies waited to long to keep up with the competition.

Look back to the 60's..And see how evolved the auto manufacturing has become today. From Japanese cars to European cars to American cars. They all evolved differently. Japanese cars were not always considered Well made and relaiable (cheap and good on gas yes) A Ferrari was never a supercar...But merely a sports car....A BMW...Commone now....

Imports filled the spots that the American car line ups just didnt have. And we were slow to respond. As these manufacturers grew $$$ wise....They started to compete directly with us. Now they had what we had plus what we didnt have to offer. Again we were slow to respond.

Today most manufacturers are up to a higher standard then ever before and quality almost always equivelant to price independant on the manufacturer.

Now what does all this crap mean?.....Well dependant on what we learned growing up, experienced, taught or fooled into thinking is what gives us these biased opinions. A kid that grew up with all European cars will most likely have a preference to them...Jappanese cars to them....American cars to them....Sports cars, luxory, 2 door, 4 door......List goes on.

So we will rarely get a totally unbiased opinion on anything from anyone. We all know a Ferrari or a Lambo has the "DREAMER" ahhhhhhhhhh about them regardless of how they perform..Why?...Its because we were brought up thinking that. Does that make it better or worse then lets say a Vette?...No....But I can tell you that driving a Ferrari is nothing like driving a Vette.

I can go on..But whos reading anyways:O)

[XR7inWI]

Weather we like it or not ...... blah, blah, blah, blah......... driving a Ferrari is nothing like driving a Vette.

I can go on..But whos reading anyways:O)

Cliff notes please? :D :p

(j/k)

[Ira R.]

Cliff notes please? :D :p

(j/k)
A. He likes Fords
B. He doesn't care what we think.
C. Something about his parents.

:p ;) :D

Ira

[ThunderDave]

Weather we like it or not

Ira, you forgot. Damon did talk about the weather too. :eek: :p ;) :D

[89psychobird]

Damon, I read it word for word and enjoyed it! You rock, always strive to be different or you end up being like all the tan Camrys with gold trim making our beautiful American roads boring.

I have no real preference...Ford, GM, Chrysler (not sure if we still want to call them domestic). I also buy them and drive them because I like them.

Do this country a favor everyone, stop buying imports, please. My father just bought a Toyota after 26 years of all domestics. He is not allowed to park his boring SUV in my driveway! His C5 Vette is always welcome!



BTW - If I win the lottery, a blue Z06 will be my first purchase, then a complete restoration of my SC.

[Scott Long]

I think I'm going to have to write a letter, and not renew my subscription. They love porsche and god forbid someone beat Ferrari.

[Sam Woodson]

Per the Mustang vs GTO article and comments.

I went to the Pontiac showroom about 1.5 years ago and looked at a GTO, sat in it, etc. I left uninterested. Yeah, "You should have driven it"

No, I'm sure it handles well, it has good power. (but from seeing one on the road the other day, not nearly as much get up and go as I would have expected) However, the styling was BORING. It's just a Cavalier by the looks of it. Sure a "sleeper" can be fun, but at least a sleeper can be a nice looking car.

The Mustang, I liked them before they came out, now that they are out they are Ok. I do like the ones with all the air dams, etc. I think I would prefer the Charger for the money, but I would want a Manual tranny. The new Camaro and Challenger look promising.

Speaking of Manual vs Auto. Since around 1999 I have looked for used Trans Am many times in my car shopping days, they seem to be as rare as a Unicorn. It's pretty sad, same thing with SC's, Mustangs, and the later 928's Whimpy American drivers, if you want a sports car/Muscle car, get the manual, if not get yourself in a Taurus! :-)

[tim]

My yuppie scumbag brother has a new Corvette. He cant drive it but it looks good. So a couple of weeks ago he calls me and asks me if i want to drive a real car, was he asking for it or what? I drove it scared the pants off him and really liked the car. He sold his bemmer in for it, now he drives a real car!!:rolleyes:

[Payton]

The $67K Z06 kicks the tail off of the Germans and Italians and still ranks 3rd. How do they do that?



Dave where can I find the review itself??? Do you have a web link to it?:o

[Andy 94SC]

Dave where can I find the review itself??? Do you have a web link to it?:o

Z06 V 911 Turbo V f430. (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/11326/comparison-test-review-2006-chevrolet-corvette-z06-vs-2006-ferrari-f430-vs-2007-porsche-911-turbo.html)

Regarding the article. I don't think team Corvette is too riled up by it. their car was compared to one which cost about twice as much, and one that cost nearly three times as much, and beat them both in most of the subjective tests. They intended to beat the 911 Turbo and Viper in performance. They did that. Taking down the F430 was a bonus. This article is NOT going to hurt Z06 sales at all.

So the Z06 lost due to the objective evaluations. Your extra $110,000 better get you at least a little more refinement. As they said in the article the Z06 is the performace bargain of the century.

I'll be interested to see all the letters coming in about two months. Remember the backlash they got over the 2005 GTO Vs Mustang review?

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

There will always be backlash from the oppossing counsel...Wether deserving or not. The zo6 is the performance bang for the buck. I want to see however what happens with the new gt500. Low 12's on street tires is impressive with a roots blown v8..Traction had to be an issue

[Andy 94SC]

Of course there will always be a backlash, however the response to the GTO / Mustang story was heavily pro - GTO. I think they said they got something like 30 letters for the GTO, and two supporting the Mustang after that story.

Regarding the GT500, something doesn't add up with the magazine tests I have seen so far. None are low 12's, the convertible also tested in this months C&D was in the 13's and trapped at 108. A bit slower than a non-aspirated V8 that I know of. I hope there isn't another '99 Cobra type fiasco brewing here, Ford doesn't need to deal with something like that right now. But those things don't seem to be behaving like 500 hp cars yet.

[XR7 Dave]

I would make a guess that the GT500 has fallen victim of some typical heat soak issues of supercharged cars. I can very easily imagine the magazine testers throoughly heat soaking the motor like they used to do with the SC's before actually attempting a 1/4 mile pass and then averaging the results on back to back runs until the car has slowed down to it's worst possible performance.

This would be in complete contrast to the SAE test in which the motor would be brought up to uperating temperature but I don't believe there is any specification on what temperature the IC coolant must be at. Since they can't simulate the actual car in the dyno room I would tend to guess that IC coolant would be left at whatever temp it got to during warmup or for consistancy sake perhaps maintained at ambiant temp. Either way there is no reliable method of determining what temp the water should be at and different weather and different driving conditions will make a big difference to any supercharded car unless the IC is significantly oversized.

[Payton]

Dave, you are right as always. Testing was bogus.:rolleyes: I was laughing at how hard they tried to bring Vette down

[CMac89]

Well, that's why Ford should have made a larger cubic inch NA motor. Then they don't have to worry about heat soak.

[XR7 Dave]

Well, that's why Ford should have made a larger cubic inch NA motor. Then they don't have to worry about heat soak.

Well, I've been flamed many times about what I thought Ford should have done. Bottom line is that Ford doesn't have a motor capable of that kind of power output in NA form and they aren't going to build one just for the Mustang.

[CMac89]

I think that Ford has plenty to build off of disregarding resources. The Corvette and the Camaro's in the late 60's had 427's in them that made big power and that's part of the reason that GM decided to do that for today's Corvette. Ford used a 428CJ in the mustangs and torino's and they also used the 429SCJ so why not? Besides it's something totally different and it even got my father's attention and he isn't about new age cars at all. Then you bring up the GT500 and he loses interest again because it's nothing that relates to him.

The GT500 is just the same thing at a different power level. Just because the numbers are different doesn't make it much of a different motor. I would think it's cool for Ford to make a 429CI motor. Even if it was DOHC still I would find it appealing. I'm sure many have an idea of how the heads would flow though, lol:rolleyes: .

Just wanna see something different. Step away from the 4.6 and 5.4 that's been around for the past decade.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Well, I've been flamed many times about what I thought Ford should have done. Bottom line is that Ford doesn't have a motor capable of that kind of power output in NA form and they aren't going to build one just for the Mustang.

Your getting flamed again.

There is a reason for everything. To say Ford cannot (or any car manufacturer for that matter) make almost as much HP as they want out of the motors they produce is absurd.

Ford chose a roots blown motor because you can get great low end power which EVERYONE LOVES with EASY aftermarket potential. We have all seen what 03/04 Cobras can do...Just wait to see what the gt500 can do.

The Hurst car is an indication of things to come as far as N/A performance. just as the Mach one was before it.

[Micahdogg]

So Damon, you are convinced that Ford can produce any amount of power they want from any of their engines while ensuring:

A - a reasonable amount of R&D allocated to the project
B - a pump gas friendly combination
C - a desirable and streetable power curve by their standards
D - meeting up to emission standards
E - capable of running 100K miles with low maintenance
F - No quirky problems like hard start up, running hot, etc...

Because, afterall, these are all factors that any auto manufacturer would consider on when producing ANY power plant. And I'm sure that there are many many many more standards. Will we be looking at titanium hardware? Cost and availability of material?

So what I think Dave was trying to say is for all practical purposes....Ford can't produce an n/a equivalent of that motor that would fall within a reasonable budget, meeting all their requirements and be more than just a SEMA show car. And I would agree. Toss a roots on it and make up for the shortcomings.

Micah

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

So what I think Dave was trying to say is for all practical purposes....Ford can't produce an n/a equivalent of that motor that would fall within a reasonable budget, meeting all their requirements and be more than just a SEMA show car. And I would agree. Toss a roots on it and make up for the shortcomings.

Wrong.

As Dave has alluded as well as yourself....Has nothing to do with shortcommings. It's a different approach plain and simple. If you dont think alot of research and developement went into the 03/04 cobra motor or the new gt500 5.4...I dont know what to tell you.

I wonder why the Cadillacs get a small displacement DOHC v8 while the Corvette gets a pushrod engine...Can you answer me that?

And yes it has everything to do with part of the list you alluded to..But nothing to do with shortcommings WHICH is what Dave is referring to and has in the past.

[Blk89TBSC]

Doesn't Ford have a 5L 400hp modular crate engine?

[Micahdogg]

Top 3 reasons why this thread is going nowhere:

(1) Damon is making shi+ up. Example:

If you dont think alot of research and developement went into the 03/04 cobra motor or the new gt500 5.4...I dont know what to tell you.

At this point I would waste time replying about how I never said that. I would then ask Damon to share with us exactly how much R&D went into the 03/04 cobra motor or the new gt500 5.4. Afterall, he is "alluding" that a hefty amount of money was invested...maybe even enough to rival a n/a build program of equal power potential.

(2) Flat out statements of "Right" or "Wrong"

The topic at hand speaks to the efficiencies or inefficiencies of the mod motor. This is subjective because we all have a different gauge when deeming something efficient or not. It would help if any of us discussing the topic actually worked in the mod motor program and could share "nightmare" or "success" stories of its development, but none of us were there. So we only have real world experiences which again...are subjective. This is why you can never say, "right" or "wrong"....and once these words are tossed into a thread like this you can pretty much bank on it going downhill.

(3) Refuting facts with...tangents.

My "subjective" gauge really likes arguments that are presented like this:

The dimensionally smaller and cubically bigger GM V8 motors make more power naturally than the Ford Mod Motors.

I like this because it's not subjective. It's a fact. My "subjective" gauge doesn't like arguments that are presented like this:

I wonder why the Cadillacs get a small displacement DOHC v8 while the Corvette gets a pushrod engine...Can you answer me that? And yes it has everything to do with part of the list you alluded to..But nothing to do with shortcommings.

I don't like this because I'm being asked a question I can't answer. The poster presents it as if they know the answer, but notice how it's not there. Also it is summed up with, 'it has nothing to do with shortcomings." Period. Ok. Why? See...theres just too many questions left unaswered and no real meat and potatoes for me to chew on.

Oh well. This thread had potential.

Micah

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Micah there you go again..Must be a tad border then I am.

You alluded that ford threw a blower on the modular motor to make up for its shortcomming.

Toss a roots on it and make up for the shortcomings.


So who is making **** up?...Your just to funny. That one statement throws your whole argument out the window..Making assumpsions with no proof....
Without having even the remotest inkling of automotive knowledge (which is very obvious and almost comical for anyone that does)

BTW I didnt say MICAH...

I merely said as a general statement

If you dont think alot of research and developement went into the 03/04 cobra motor or the new gt500 5.4...I dont know what to tell you.

I guess you took that personally for some reason..Hmm wonder why. Ignorance is bliss so they say.

The success of the MOD motor is all around us...Or do you not peek your head out of your own little world. Probbaly not...Apparently not

As far as insight on Ford engineering developement is concerned I usually get a pretty good lookahead from my buddies.

I know people that do this research and developement as well as many people in the aftermarket performance arena..Not to mention a few magazine editors that constantly try out the failure or SUCCESS of the Mod motor.

So I can say right or wrong to your very shortsided and ignorant statement once again...

Toss a roots on it and make up for the shortcomings.


Facts...

The dimensionally smaller and cubically bigger GM V8 motors make more power naturally than the Ford Mod Motors.

Yes they do..And they also make more power then thier very own DOHC motors which are dimentionally bigger with smaller displacement. There is a reason why Ford went with a DOHC performance based engine and why Cadillac uses the same model. Performance, smoothness, driveability.

Ever wonder why the F body was canned?...I dont

And yes Ford makes a 5 liter 400 hp modular motor which is very drivable/streetable/docile..My buddy has one in his road race car.

Anyway..No sence explaining something to someone in which it will go in one ear..Bounce around a bit..echo..and out the other...:O)

Now back to our..Nice Non Micah induced forum topic...Yes I will ignore ignorant banther from the "man" as to not drag this thread down:O)

[Blk89TBSC]

Ever wonder why the F body was canned?...I dont



Because it didn't meet 2003 federal crash standards.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

It wasnt selling is the bottom line. Why it wasnt selling is a whole other ballgame one of which I alluded to.

Perhaps it just wasnt worth putting in the R&D to make it meet any of those new crash standards. Manufacturers know about soon to be mandated standards well in advance to comply. (years in advance even)

THat may have been a reason..But not teh decieding factor for sure...Because if it was a money maker..It would still be produced today.

Now that new challenger intruiges me..Pushrod motor and all..Just because it looks hot :O)

[XR7 Dave]

I wasn't trying to start an argument. I made a simple comment and now it is an argument. Funny how that works.

Yes, the mod motor HAS fallen short. In NA form it only made 320hp. If you stretch and stretch you might get 350hp. Heck the Cobra R 5.4 version only made 385hp. Not enough to play on today's playground.

How much potential does the mod motor have? Well, with the 03 Cobra setup Ford spent countless hours trying to get the aluminum block to stand up to their normal tests. Couldn't do it at 390hp so they had to go with a cast iron block. Think about that for a moment. What is the 500hp Chevy block made from?

See there really is a design failure on the part of the mod motor. Ford did not anticipate the HP wars that have blossomed in the 21st and their motor has been found badly lacking. Even now they are desperate. Tell me, how much does a 5.4 GT500 engine weigh complete with SC, IC, and all related hardware and fluids? :eek:

If you need more proof, just ask how many people have completed mod motor engine swaps into older cars? And how many old cars (or even imports for that matter) are driving around with LSx motors under the hoods? Many. Chevy has created a second revolution like they did the first time they caught Ford with their pants down in 1953. Back then OHC engines were looked at as the nirvana of engine design too. Only problem was that the OHV Chevy was so darn good that none of the others took off.

My how things have changed. :rolleyes: OHC is popular again and once again Chevy has proven that there are things more important in a passenger and performance car engine than smooth and efficient valvetrain dynamics.

Why does Cadillac have OHC motors? Because that is what their customers want and expect. High tech stuff that they can woo their buddies at the club with. If Cadillac owners really needed that super smooth motor do you really think they'd be putting 20+ wheels on their cars? 17's ride SOOO much smoother and handle just as well.

No, pushrods are not cool and Chevy knows this. They prefer to rub it in the face of the latest and greatest and they did a wonderful job of it with the new Vette. As much as the test was a dissapointment the way they "ranked" the cars, the facts spoke so loud and clear that the 'ranking' only made the others look that much worse. Since when do Porsche and Ferrari rely on "finesse" to win a competition. They got beat on the track and that is what is funny about the whole thing.

PS. On a side note, Top Gear ranked both the Porsche and the Ferrari higher on their list than the Vette. So IMO, not only are Car and Driver "Elitist Snobs", but apparently they can't drive either. LMAO! :rolleyes: :D :eek: :p

[XR7 Dave]

It wasnt selling is the bottom line. Why it wasnt selling is a whole other ballgame one of which I alluded to.

Perhaps it just wasnt worth putting in the R&D to make it meet any of those new crash standards. Manufacturers know about soon to be mandated standards well in advance to comply. (years in advance even)

THat may have been a reason..But not teh decieding factor for sure...Because if it was a money maker..It would still be produced today.


No one knows exactly why GM trashed the Camaro. One day the big guy said "Bu-by" and that was it. Same thing as what happened to the T-Bird. The T-Bird was selling just fine, but Ford needed the capacity for something else.

The F-body would not pass crash standards. That is a fact. Chevy would not allow any department to design a new car to meet crash so that meant they had to use an existing platform. None existed. Kind of like now with Ford. They don't have a motor that is capable of 500hp N/A. Period. You can't bore and stroke the block enough to get the cubes and you can't make big enough ports because their ain't enough real estate in the heads. Big as they are there just isn't the room. How ironic.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Dave they make a lowballed 400 hp from the 5.0 cammer motor. It can be done but seriously Ford doesnt even have anyone to compete with as far as the Mustangis concerned..Not yet at least

Ford has made a pretty nice motor from what they have..Yes they had problems finding a source that could cast them a good enough aluminum block and felt that the iron blocks would be better suited for long term reliability knowing full well what people would be doing to these cars

But lets look at some number

7 liter zo6 @ 505hp..Thats about 72hp/L
6 liter @ 400hp...Thats about 66.7hp/L


5.4 liter 07 Shelby@475hp...Thats about 88hp/L
4.6 3v@300hp..Thats about 65hp/L
4.6 3V hertz@325hp...Thats about 71hp/L

4.6 liter o3 Cobra@ 390hp....Thats about 85hp/L
4.6 liter PI motor@265hp....Thats about 58hp/L
4.6 liter non PI@215hp....Thats about 47hp/L
4.6 3v@300hp..Thats about 65hp/L
4.6 3V hertz@325hp...Thats about 71hp/L

Stacking it up this way the non PI motor is sad...PI motor semi respectable and both the 03 and o7 blown motors doing rather well...But wed expect that.

The Hertz making 71hp and being N/A is very impressive. Very much naturally aspirated and not all that Wild an engine.

We can also pick apart power curves but thats not my point.

Ford chose to go one way..Chevy another. I am not saying the chevy motors are junk. Not by a long shot. Nor am I saying they are lacking...

Hey we love HP...Right?...Chevy has it..Big motors...Big HP....Ford has big HP also..They went about it differently and a little more high tech.

The high tech/refinement is what seperates performance cars...Silky smooth or rough and obnoxious.

Dave unlike some people I wanst trying to pick apart your character..And was not turning this into an argument. Someone else did that

I'm sure ford could build this one for less.....
http://www.streetclassics.com/mustangs/boss1.htm

[Andy 94SC]

But lets look at some number

7 liter zo6 @ 505hp..Thats about 72hp/L
6 liter @ 400hp...Thats about 66.7hp/L


5.4 liter 07 Shelby@475hp...Thats about 88hp/L
4.6 3v@300hp..Thats about 65hp/L
4.6 3V hertz@325hp...Thats about 71hp/L

4.6 liter o3 Cobra@ 390hp....Thats about 85hp/L
4.6 liter PI motor@265hp....Thats about 58hp/L
4.6 liter non PI@215hp....Thats about 47hp/L
4.6 3v@300hp..Thats about 65hp/L
4.6 3V hertz@325hp...Thats about 71hp/L



Did I stumble into a Honda website here? What's this HP/L stuff?

Riddle me this;

The STS V-series makes 469 HP from 4.2L. What's that work out to in HP/L? It's a DOHC intercooled, roots blown V8, just like the GT500 engine. Apples to apples.

[XR7 Dave]

As you know Damon, the smaller displacement the motor the easier it is to achieve a high hp/liter number. The weight of associated parts just work against you in the laws of diminishing returns. To get 500 streetable and emissions legal HP is pretty nuts regardless of how you do it.

IMO as long as mileage doesn't suffer, there is no real drawback to bigger displacement. Chevy has proven that higger CI motors don't necessarily mean lower mileage so in the end, does it make a difference? Top notch mileage on a big displacement motor comes largely from gearing - but then again, could you get away with such radical gearing in a smaller displacement motor? Not really unless you get out the superchargers... Which leads us back around to the fact that a 7.0L Z06 engine is physically smaller, much lighter and gets at least comperable mileage as a mod motor whether it be 4.6 or 5.4.

I was at a shop the other day looking at an LS1 GTO (5.7L) that had AFR heads, cam, headers, and exhaust. It made 445rwhp through an automatic (should be 525-540 at the motor). It was very mild overall (though clearly not emissions legal). I just don't see any Mod motor making that kind of power without an adder.

Boy, have we ever gotten off topic. :cool:

Anyway, I like the 3.8L because no one else does. :D

[XR7 Dave]

Did I stumble into a Honda website here? What's this HP/L stuff?

Riddle me this;

The STS V-series makes 469 HP from 4.2L. What's that work out to in HP/L? It's a DOHC intercooled, roots blown V8, just like the GT500 engine. Apples to apples.

111hp/L ;)

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Andy that motor does rock.(In a 75,000 car and gets 14 mpg / 20 mpg ) But it will never see itself inside a Vette unfortunately..Or the new if produced camaro. or probably any semi entry level performance vehicle due to production costs. But again..Did you see me say anything bad about the newer line of Gm motors? I dont think so.

Comparing a Vette motor to a mustang motor is almost as absurd as comparing a cadillac motor to a mustang motor but heck, why not! We are all into performance. Just different types and different ways of going about getting that performance.

The reason I mentioned liter/hp is because they do corralate to one another. I do feel Ford could make alot more power with thier 4.6 motor but I just dont think they need to. If the competition comes around I'm sure we will trully see a HP war. But even the Shelby gt500 wasnt made to compete with the vette. Nor was the Base mustang made to compete with the vette. It's in a class of its own for now..And perhaps Chevy will reintroduce the Camaro, and chrysler the Challenger...But as of now they need to match at least the 475hp of the Shelby to claim victory in the HP war...Will GM make a Camaro that will compete with thier vette?.....Chrysler thier Viper? Only time will tell

I do know that the late model mustang in 4.6 3v frorm will make over 500rwhp with a bolt on SC kit..So I'm sure even the Shelby has much hidden potential as I cant believe the 3v 4.6 will outpower the 5.4 DOHC. I do know that ford has a few things up thier sleeves but it wont ever be a 7 liter 505 hp motor. Its not the direction they are heading in. As far as what peopel have naturally aspirated wise out there 4.6...I have no idea...I'm not really into it.

A lil off topic..(further off then it was)

Seeing Andy post all of a sudden makes me wonder.....Naaahh it really doesnt...quite obvious:O)...

BTW..Anyone else is getting banned on that other forum because certain people cant take the heat. You know that forum where noone gets banned from?

[Andy 94SC]

Yeah, we are truly living in an era of some awesome machines rolling out of the factory. Blows away the so called Muscle car era. ;)

I think the STS-V should have been in the C&D comparo. After all it has a bigger backseat than the Porsche, a much nicer interior than the Ferrari, and a better audio system than nearly anything else out there. Hell, it might have won - best Sports car EVER! :rolleyes:

As far as that other board. Only spammers selling Ipods and the occasional troll have been banned to my knowledge. Well, except for me, but that was a couple of years ago, and I did direct a "Yo Momma" joke at MY-Cah. Phil thought he was banned, but it turns out he had too many Rolling Rocks after jogging one night and forgot how to log in for 6 weeks.

[Blk89TBSC]

I do know that the late model mustang in 4.6 3v frorm will make over 500rwhp with a bolt on SC kit..So I'm sure even the Shelby has much hidden potential as I cant believe the 3v 4.6 will outpower the 5.4 DOHC. I do know that ford has a few things up thier sleeves but it wont ever be a 7 liter 505 hp motor. Its not the direction they are heading in. As far as what peopel have naturally aspirated wise out there 4.6...I have no idea...I'm not really into it.




You can't compare the 3V 4.6L vs the 5.4L. The 4.6L is a high compression N/A motor where the 5.4L has forged pistons and what 8.3:1 compression?

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

We can always compare..Afterall all these motors we are talking about are completely different animals. But over 500rwhp from a STOCK 3v with a blower..Impressive

[Blk89TBSC]

We can always compare..Afterall all these motors we are talking about are completely different animals. But over 500rwhp from a STOCK 3v with a blower..Impressive


But how long is it gonna last? Last i read the 3V rods are as ~~~~~~ as the 2v ones.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Crap the 2 valve pistons are the weak link..Then the rods..Ask me how I know!....

Talk about design deficiencies.....Well they wernt made for a blower though sooo....

[Micahdogg]

Wow, everything I just read reinforces my thoughts on the Mod Motor. I love them, because they are Ford, but GM is gettin' her done. And why doesn't Damon love me....I love you man?

Micah

[Randy N Connie]

Wow, but GM is gettin' her done.

Micah

What a comment!! Why don't you just kick me in the balls.

Randy :)


Been haven bad luck .The guy down the road said he has been praying for me. Then I find out he is a devil worshipper.:confused: :)

[Micahdogg]

Well...my list of people who get kicked in the balls is getting longer. You can be after Dennis now. Damon can be off the list if he shares a room with me at the Shootout.

Micah

[Kurt K]

Damon can be off the list if he shares a room with me at the Shootout.

Micah

We don't want to know :rolleyes:

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Like I said...Never said that GM has a bad motor lineup..But interestingly enought the 4.4 liter motor gets that bad with the miles per gallon.

I love everyone..Even you Micah when you behave...Otherwise you get detention for kicking people in the nuts..Which quite frankly at your height...May be a problem....You kick someone in nuts....Thier reaction is to bend over in pain...Thus headbutting you in the crotch.....Not a good thing if I must say so myself...

[vytas]

to compare to C&D, it might be interesting to read what some of the european press wrote about the latest Z06 :-)

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/motoringpreviews/64366/corvette_zo6.html


when as a kid i first went to europe and realized Mercedes and BMW's were used as taxi's - if you really wanted to be noticed, you drove an american car - the opposite of what it is here. :cool:

[meatball]

I like seeing a Ferrari or Porsche probably better then the Corvette ZO6. Why? Because they are rare to see them on the streets, corvettes are all over the place. If I had a million what would I buy? A fleet of ZO6's. Theres no way I'd spend twice or thrice the price for a car that performs worse. I may buy a ferrari or porsche if I already had a ZO6 and wanted to blow away some money (and needed a good chick car, they dont know the Z06 will beat it), but past that the Z06 is a better performing car, and of course the cherry topper, its American.

Its not just Car & Driver thats bias, its ALL magazines. Stop reading them! No matter what the subject, bikes, jetski's, or car's, any awards or rankings coming from a magazine are 90 percent of the time based on ad revenue. For example, if anyones into jetskis, a certain mag gave the ski of the year to the yami VX110. The lowest hp, worst handling, biggest weighing piece of crap you could imagine. It was all based on a big money handout by yamaha. They compared it to a couple Seadoo's, and Kawasaki's, which were into the 180+ hp region, same capabilities with better handling, and they lost.

Magazines suck, get used to it.

O, am I off topic?

[vytas]

Its not just Car & Driver thats bias, its ALL magazines. Stop reading them! No matter what the subject, bikes, jetski's, or car's, any awards or rankings coming from a magazine are 90 percent of the time based on ad revenue.


actually that is a very good point !! - i know in entertainment biz - you want a newspaper to give your movie a good review - buy advertising !! so much for objectivity .. but in the case of car and driver .... i don't recall seeing many ads for ferrari...

[meatball]

yes, but Im sure they care more about ferrari and porsches opinion of them then chevrolet.

[XR7 Dave]

The way they looked at it is no matter how they ranked the Corvette Americans will love them anyway. But if they pissed off the elite too much they might not ever get the chance to drive another new model Ferrari.

Anyway, after reading around it is clear that the Porsche and Z06 are a fair match but the Ferrari is or at least should have been a lot faster than it was in that test. And at the price, of course it should have.

One of the other mags did a much better comparison. Can't recall if it were Motor Trend or Road and Track. Funny thing in that test is that the Ford GT didn't do so hot.

I guess with any of those cars finding someone who can really wring out the best #'s is hard to find. :cool: