Rockerarm Stud Girdle strength

Do you think a rocker arm stud girdle would contribute any to
stiffening the deck of the SC 3.8 head?

Randy

I don't know about that but I would love to see something to help add rigidity to the valvetrain.

Agreed. I really doubt a girdle would help the headgasket issue, but it would strengthen the valvetrain significantly.

-Rod

I think it may be a small amount of help..The stud girdle would
act as a brace like a steel girder in the top of a bridge.
Plus some help from a custom valve cover.

I was just thinking maybe with the rocker arm studs being
long enough, to go through the rocker arms, then through
the rocker arm girdle, then through the valve cover.
That this would be of some help.

I remember seeing older Ford motor ,351C,with a set up this way.
I wonder if this motor was built with long stud girdle bolts
that went through the valve cover. That this was done to
stiffen vavle train mainly, but also would help stiffen the head
as a hole a little.

Not interrested in hearing it would be to much cost or work to
do this.I want opinions if this would be of any help in stiffening
valve train ,plus heads. As engineers hat on,veiw point opinions.

This mod would require a custom rockerarm studgirdle, studs
and a custom built valve cover.

Thanks Randy

Randy,

I thought you were talking about something like this that mounts on the studs underneath the rockers.

http://www.coasthigh.com/Stud Girdles/stud_girdles.htm

I was going to get a set of these with the turbo motor, but the guy at CHP helping me spec the motor said it wasn't needed with a hydraulic roller cam because I couldn't rev the motor high enough. With a solid roller cam revving over 7000 rpms they were considered a must have, since the canted valve heads were not compatible with shaft mounted rockers.

Interested to hear more on how you would set/mount the rocker on the extra long studs....do you use some type of jam nut arrangment ?

David

David Neibert said:

Interested to hear more on how you would set/mount the rocker on the extra long studs....do you use some type of jam nut arrangment ?
David

Click to expand...

Well I have just started to think about tring to design something
to stiffen the heads .for a future motor that I have building parts
for the last 3 plus years.

room permitting. was to machine a peice of aluminum
like a main bearing girdle on crank shaft.Bolted to the
valve cover gasket surface area. Then design & machine
a rockerarm stud girdle that connects to the main bearing
looking valve cover girdle.

And have long rocker arm bolt to go through the rocker arm,
then custom rockerarm girdle,through the top of valve covers.

Yes there would need to be jamnuts & spacers.

This would brace the diameter of valve covers gasket surface
plus a bracing down the center of head above the rocker arms.
and through the center of the top of thicker custom valve covers.

I know that parts of my thoughts have been used in the past.
I am sure this would not be a cure-all part.But I was just
thinking of some sort of help in stiffening the heads on a
hole, not just the valve train.

I was hoping for some opinions and maybe a web page
that discussed this type mods. That maybe extended past
just the bracing of the valve train. I just run on commen
Sence (well some times any way) This would be the
only area to attack to help siffen the stock heads on a hole.

Randy

I used to run the stud girdle before I switched all my motors to Jesel for significant reasons. Although it had an ARP stud it it the rocker would flex side to side at around 5K-6Krpm and cause valve bounce. You can tell by taking some finger nail polish and mark a straight line down all of the coils of the valve spring facing out. After a run you can see that the valve springs were spinning and bouncing on the seat.

I put the stud girdle on and it helped the problem alot because it was causing the valves to float prior to the stud girdle, but didn't completely solve it until I changed to the shaft mount setup.

First you have to get the right adjuster nut like in the pic below and then the girdle goes on the sleeve you see on the nut. You just set the girdle over it then tighen the girdle down and you're done.

CMac89 said:

First you have to get the right adjuster nut like in the pic below and then the girdle goes on the sleeve you see on the nut. You just set the girdle over it then tighen the girdle down and you're done.

Click to expand...

My main consern is stiffening the heads.I just thought that
the rockerarms could be included into the design.The jamnut
you show would need a threaded extention on top. That
would go through the valve cover. And be threaded outside
of valve cover

it seems like I seen a Ford overhead cam setup with a girdle that
would stiffen the heads.

Randy

Here is a picture of Pauls crankshaft main girdle .

I am thinking about a plate that looks close to this.
That bolts to the valve cover gasket surface.

with blocks of aluminum for risers. Off the valve
cover gasket girdle cross members.crossmembers
would be on each side of spring pack & rocker arms.

Then bolt rocker stud girdle to the risers.
with rocker arm bolts extending though valve covers.
Or the bolts going from risers though rocker girdle
through valve covers.

I am done over engineering. With plates,girdles,ect.

What do you think about just welding in peices of
aluminum plate. Making a webbing in the heads.
From the bottom of valve train galley,to the top of the
valve cover bolt down flange.

Do you think this way would siffen up the 3.8 SC heads.
Enough for anyone that plans to run 20, 25 TO 30lb boost.

Thanks Randy

I already boost too 22 PSI without problems with the head or valvetrain hehehe

I can actually see a good benefit to this. In effect, you would be pushing against the force of the entire valve setup as apposed to just the pedasteal that each individual rocker is on. It would probably only be a small amount of pressure, but it would make for less deflection AND add the needed rigidity to the entire valve train. I think Casey might be on to something with his setup...Hmmmmmm....shaft mounts for the 3.8?

Chris

boostedbird said:

I already boost too 22 PSI without problems with the head or valvetrain hehehe

Click to expand...

But when I finish my race motors . I plan to be on the return road
when your just passing the 1/8th mile marker at the track.
(Sorry but I am not joking).

I am most likey running 20 + pounds boost to. I don't know my
guage does not go far enough . But if your happy with 20 22 lbs
boost, Thats farout man.

I plan to run more boost.So if there is a way to beef up some heads.
And I have the tools,time. Why not explore.

I am kinda interrested in tring to build a 1000 plus horse SC 3.8 motor.
So I am looking at the heads. To see how much weld build up's are
needed to reshape & ways to make it stronger. It would be easier
to just machine some billet heads.

I think I need to talk with some older racer's. That had to build
most of there race parts,like heads. Instead of street enthusiast
that just buy off the shelf . As far as this subject go's, beefing
up stock casted aluminum heads.

Randy

seawalkersee said:

I can actually see a good benefit to this. In effect, you would be pushing against the force of the entire valve setup as apposed to just the pedasteal that each individual rocker is on. It would probably only be a small amount of pressure, but it would make for less deflection AND add the needed rigidity to the entire valve train. I think Casey might be on to something with his setup...Hmmmmmm....shaft mounts for the 3.8?

Chris

Click to expand...

I think so to. But it would be nice to add more parts to the
rocker stud girdle to siffen the hole top of head.

Have the rocker stud girdle extend and bolt to another girdle,
to extend to the valve cover flange. And be bolted there also.

Randy

Randy N Connie said:

I think so to. But it would be nice to add more parts to the
rocker stud girdle to siffen the hole top of head.

Have the rocker stud girdle extend and bolt to another girdle,
to extend to the valve cover flange. And be bolted there also.

Randy

Click to expand...

Like the old school LT1 stuff. That was exactly what I was thinking. If you cut a billitt head, are you going to make it have coolant passages? I would be interested if there were such a thing. That way I could still drive it to the track and on cruise nights.

Chris

seawalkersee said:

Like the old school LT1 stuff. That was exactly what I was thinking. If you cut a billitt head, are you going to make it have coolant passages? I would be interested if there were such a thing. That way I could still drive it to the track and on cruise nights.

Chris

Click to expand...

LT1 !!! Your not suppose to be cussing on line!.

Water jackets,whats that for.Thats my problem I can and
have made billet heads for H.D.gas to top fuel. but not for
automotive applications.Never hung around caged racers.


Do I even need water passages for the 1/4?

Randy

I can run a 1/4 mile before I hit 180 degrees. The normal street thermoastat temp. I have a set of Coy Miller stage IIR heads they have a stud mount rocker system. The stud mount system on a IIR head has the intake and exhaust rocker stud tied together. If you allready have this set up, the only way to add streagth to the valve train, would be to add shaft mount rockers and/or what you are talking about a push rod girrdle. I am sure you have allready seen the IIR desighn ,but if not I think I have a picture laying around here some where I could send you for ideas.
If you are going to try for 1000 hp. I would try to take care of the 8 bolt head problem. o rings help but, I would put my money on the fact that a 30# blower would be able to push boost past an O ring or lift the head. The product to try and inavate would be a head girdle. You said that you might have to create a new valve cover. With the added height of even 1/2 of an inch you could sneeck a steel girdle in. I think the hardest part would be to find a ARP stud to fit the girdle. The girdle would have to run above the rockers on risers. Even with the girdle running 1 1/2 inch above the normal bolt matting surface it would add streagth(like a main stud girdle). You could eaither run one nut under the girdle and one above it or just run one on the top. I would think that running two would add much needed streanght. You could also go the extra mile and find a way to mount a shaft mount rocker to the girdle(I would think this would be hard or easy with the way rockers usally sit at different heights depending on how the heads have been worked)This would be a good product for people running in the low to mid 20# area where head gasket faliure is always on the back of their minds when they hit the gas or in the all out range where boost presure on heads has not been documented or seen. This has actually been on the back of my mind for a while. I have lost more than one head gasket on my car! I would try the desighn myself but the old man sold the welder an I have no other means of building this on my own.

Dont you remember the way the LT1 had the four bolts in the center of the valve cover? That would be the easiest way to do that. But I have too pondered the possiblity of the head girdle. I think there may be an issue with the headers on the outside portion of the girdle. It would have to be at LEAST a two piece per head unit...but then have the possibility of bolting it on the outside of the head where the fuel rail is connected. But I would venture to think that that would cause a problem because of the size of the rear bolt. I may try it, but it would look very strange.

Randy, you would NOT need water passages for track use only. In fact, there are heads available now that have no water passages. The one that comes to mind is the 300 I6 head that is available from SVO. Im not sure how many vehicles that are track use only use coolant. I know that some of them use a block filler that fills up the entire bottom portion of the block.

Chris

Gs93SC thanks for the get back. .My thought was to start stiffining
the top of the head with some type custom machined girdle. No I
have never seen any Coy Miller heads. I try not to look at others
parts.It contaminates my out of the box thinking.

I havent cut a block up yet to see where
or even if extra head bolts can added. On the cases that I have
worked on we would double the the bolts,with smaller diameter
bolts. And place them just before and after the filled-in original
head or case bolts. This would spead the load out around the diameter
of the cylinder. I have thought about cutting the cylinders out.
And replacing with sleaves. Before sleaving the block. Do weld
build up inside of block for extra head bolt bosses.

On the sleaves would be a fire ring that sets .100 above the block deck.
This fire ring acts as a O-RING that automotive people use but much
stronger.The head will have the recese ring machined in,Then the cylinder
sleave with fire ring will seat and seal into the head.

With this set up,
fire ring on clyinder sleave and slot cut into head. I never used head
gasket,just a rubber O-Ring. I think this set up can be use with the
SC V-6 motor. And help reduce some head lifting.

Chris I don't have the slightest idea what a LT 1 even is.
Let alone seen what ever it is.

I don't beleive that any part of a girdle would need to extend outside
of valve cover perameter. I thought of just doing weld build up for
extra bolt bosses. Around the inside of valve cover area. to bolt
a custom built rocker arm stud mount girdle/ valve cover girdle.

To get the 3.8 SC head to flow enough air.It is going to take
massive weld build up's. ANd get into a lot of the water passages.
head bolt,& push rod areas .To make the ports have enough CCs
to flow the CFMs it takes to make big horse power.

And cut the cumbustion chamber out. And weld in a machined
combustion chamber hat with a Ford Hemi shape.

The only important part to me not to touch,weld or modifi on the heads.
Is the casted in SC sig on the front of the heads.

Try this...http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PRO-141-130&N=700+115&autoview=sku It has the center post mounting points. We would have to figure out how to put GOOD gaskets in. Cause they leak. Your idea sounds good for the block and heads Randy...but I think you may as well put a completely different engine in there if you are going to do all that work.

Chris