ok, still looking here. i still can't find the answer to the question, i guessing that when the spout is removed the timing goes to 10 btdc, that would be verified with a timing light on the harmonic balancer. haven't gotten that far yet. anyone with a scanner that can verify what the eec will read with the spout removed? i found one post that asked the same question and no answer either. also, what kinda timing numbers are you guys getting at wot and i know the ecc goes to an open loop at wot, but at the o2 sensor reading still valid. mine goes to about .9 volts. i know these cars go way rich on wot.