Calgary Tuning with DD!

[SCaddict]

We started our tuning session with Dave tonight. I went first and the car was only making 230rwhp and running lean. Dave added in fuel and it still was lean. Dave added more fuel with the same result. I was making 18psi with very little or no belt slip at 25%OD. My IC and alky injection was doing the job as I was seeing ACT's around 75-80 degrees. We could not figure out the lean problem and as Dave added the fuel, the car would run badly after about 4000rpms. We thought the spark may be blowing out, so we gapped the plugs down, still with the same result. Then we switched from a tailpipe O2 to the down pipe and it turns out that the other 02 was not reading right at all. The car was actually running at about 9.8 a/f. Dave took out about 20% fuel and got the tune real good. The car made 250rwhp with the tune for the alky. On the last pull I decided to run the Snow Performance Nitro booster just to see if any gains could be had. I had to drain the system and put in the correct mixture of Meth and Nitro. Well something happened and the Meth did not spray and though the A/F stayed good the extra timing in the tune caused the motor to detonate and blew the HG's. The car did not blow white but the overflow was full and bubbly. There was also HG gunk in the rad. So I did get it tuned, but now have to do some repairs. 2 sets of HG's in 2 years, aren't I luckly! DD says I am not building as much power on the dyno because of the non-locking conveter. So if you add that in and the mustang dyno reading low I guess I am building some good power. Not as much as the AR setup, but I will leave that alone. I guess I won't know how much power I gained with the MPIII but I am getting about 6-7 more pounds of boost. I wanted to test the car out to see how different it feels but that will have to wait till I fix her.

Marty

[Toms-SC]

I would like to metion that nobody can pin this on my doing as I was picking up donuts :D

[ss_scuba]

Marty....alot of learning happened tonight, for all of us. The biggest has got to be to ensure that the methanol is spraying after draining the lines.

I've gotta give you credit though, you scared the hell out of everyone when the intercooler tube blew off!

[Ira R.]

I would like to metion that nobody can pin this on my doing as I was picking up donuts :D
So it's your fault because you weren't there to supervise, right?? ;)

Ira

[Super XR7]

Oh man! That sucks. Do you think it was the nitro/methonal mix or did the snow unit not turn on? Anyway, will you be able to fix it before the shoot out? Good luck to you.

Mike

[SCaddict]

Oh man! That sucks. Do you think it was the nitro/methonal mix or did the snow unit not turn on? Anyway, will you be able to fix it before the shoot out? Good luck to you.

Mike

I was not coming to the shootout anyways. I don't know what happened with the pump, but it did not spray. I will check it out when I do the HG's. It did work great all night and did allow for extra timing and cool act's.


Marty

[SCaddict]

Marty....alot of learning happened tonight, for all of us. The biggest has got to be to ensure that the methanol is spraying after draining the lines.

I've gotta give you credit though, you scared the hell out of everyone when the intercooler tube blew off!

Almost shat myself!:D I thought the motor went south and then I thought you guys said I blew up the SC top! Quick fix and we were off. It was very funny when people starting searching for ear muffs cause of the blower.


Marty

[David Neibert]

Marty,

Sorry to hear the HGs blew. Might be a good idea to go with a set of the Felpro Permatorque MLS gaskets this time.

David

[ss_scuba]

David, I'd be surprised if somehow he hasn't already got a set of gaskets and tools in hand today...

We actually talked about it last night when it happened, and that's the route he's gonna go anyhow. He's already got the ARP headstuds, and with all the stock ic tubing gone now it shouldn't take overly long to do.

[Tazer999]

wheres the rest of the updates, :p

[sail7seas]

>extra timing in the tune caused the motor to detonate and blew the HG's.<

How much advance are you guys using?

I wonder if extra retard could put into the EEC knock sensor function?

Then again, http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81531

[SCaddict]

wheres the rest of the updates, :p


I will let others post that. But I will say tha Dave's old rusty couger threw down like 260. I will also say that the MPIII is a let down. I did see lots of boost with no slip at 25% and it made less power than the ported late model blowers.

[SCaddict]

David, I'd be surprised if somehow he hasn't already got a set of gaskets and tools in hand today...

We actually talked about it last night when it happened, and that's the route he's gonna go anyhow. He's already got the ARP headstuds, and with all the stock ic tubing gone now it shouldn't take overly long to do.

I am going with the Felpro ones for now and I am getting a cam and head package and then I will do the MLS.

[SCaddict]

We think the HG's didn't blow, but it may have lifted a head. When I did HG's 2 years ago we tourqed them down to 70ft/lbs. This time I will go about 85. I drove the car home last night and it never overheated or filled the overflow tank and there is no smoke. I am changing HG's just to be sure.

[Big Cat Davo]

The Ryan Harris ported blower performed like a champ. I saw 16+ PSi of boost and low outlet temps. I beleive around 80-90 degrees for the duration of the pull.

The car made 258.8 RWHP at 4900 RPM and 342 lb/ft of torque at 2900 RPM. Here is the kicker, that is with a stock tune. Give the milage on my block we decided that the number that is was making were good enough and that I would stop there . . . suffice it to say that there is a bit more left in this combination, but I held off with the 280,000 kilometers i have on the stock longblock.

Dave

[kws6000]

wheres the rest of the updates, :p

My 52000km 95sc auto,with full exhaust(no cats,3in centre pipe,magnaflow resonator,hemi turbo rear mufflers.76mm c&l,75mm tb,mp inlet plenum,mp raised top,dic with fan and 5% pulley made 203 hp,330 tork.Changing to a stock 91 pulley increased the hp to 224,and dropped the tork to 315.

This car wont tolerate any additional timing,and wouldnt even tolerate stock timing with the 5%.

The mp111 cars did not live up to the hype.

[David Neibert]

The mp111 cars did not live up to the hype.


They seldom do, so I don't know why anyone is suprised.

David

[CarlisleLandOwn]

We started our tuning session with Dave tonight. I went first and the car was only making 230rwhp and running lean. Dave added in fuel and it still was lean. Dave added more fuel with the same result. I was making 18psi with very little or no belt slip at 25%OD. My IC and alky injection was doing the job as I was seeing ACT's around 75-80 degrees. We could not figure out the lean problem and as Dave added the fuel, the car would run badly after about 4000rpms. We thought the spark may be blowing out, so we gapped the plugs down, still with the same result. Then we switched from a tailpipe O2 to the down pipe and it turns out that the other 02 was not reading right at all. The car was actually running at about 9.8 a/f. Dave took out about 20% fuel and got the tune real good. The car made 250rwhp with the tune for the alky. On the last pull I decided to run the Snow Performance Nitro booster just to see if any gains could be had. I had to drain the system and put in the correct mixture of Meth and Nitro. Well something happened and the Meth did not spray and though the A/F stayed good the extra timing in the tune caused the motor to detonate and blew the HG's. The car did not blow white but the overflow was full and bubbly. There was also HG gunk in the rad. So I did get it tuned, but now have to do some repairs. 2 sets of HG's in 2 years, aren't I luckly! DD says I am not building as much power on the dyno because of the non-locking conveter. So if you add that in and the mustang dyno reading low I guess I am building some good power. Not as much as the AR setup, but I will leave that alone. I guess I won't know how much power I gained with the MPIII but I am getting about 6-7 more pounds of boost. I wanted to test the car out to see how different it feels but that will have to wait till I fix her.

Marty

Sorry to hear that.

[tbirdsc357]

So is anyone other than Kevin L seeing good results or is at least satisfied with their MPIII?

Thats not a poke or a dig at anyone, just want to know who has tried a MP3 amd been satisfied with the purchase...

[Toms-SC]

So is anyone other than Kevin L seeing good results or is at least satisfied with their MPIII?

Thats not a poke or a dig at anyone, just want to know who has tried a MP3 amd been satisfied with the purchase...

Going to have to see what a heads and cam package does to wake it up. This blower is 'suppose' to make its power 5000 RPM +. Kinda hard to do that when your heads and cam is stock. I will give it another try although the faith is slipping.

[tbirdsc357]

Going to have to see what a heads and cam package does to wake it up. This blower is 'suppose' to make its power 5000 RPM +. Kinda hard to do that when your heads and cam is stock. I will give it another try although the faith is slipping.

You shouldn't really have to though.

According to MP's site, with the MP3 (15% OD) and all the MP goodies with stock heads, stock cam, and stock IC, you should be seeing 310 RWHP.

In their stage 2....add a FMIC and another 5% OD to the above and you should be up to 345 RWHP

I know evey car is different but you guys are not even in the same ball park.

http://magnumpowers.com/thunder_power_recepies.php

[Toms-SC]

Yes, hello and welcome to the bullcrap vendors pull out. :)

[Jason Wild]

To make over 300 RWHP with any m90 you need ported heads to see that number.

[kws6000]

You shouldn't really have to though.

According to MP's site, with the MP3 (15% OD) and all the MP goodies with stock heads, stock cam, and stock IC, you should be seeing 310 RWHP.

In their stage 2....add a FMIC and another 5% OD to the above and you should be up to 345 RWHP

I know evey car is different but you guys are not even in the same ball park.

http://magnumpowers.com/thunder_power_recepies.php

Nobody that I know of has made these numbers.Subtract 80 hp from any of these packages to get real mustang dyno numbers.

[kws6000]

They seldom do, so I don't know why anyone is suprised.

David

No,they never do except for Kevin L.

[David Neibert]

No,they never do except for Kevin L.

I got 357 rwhp out of my MPIII at 25% with slipping belts and as much as 374 rwhp from my MPII (dead of winter). But I could never attain the numbers the guy out on the west coast (Travis) was making.

You can get power out of them, but the results posted on MP's website are certianly not typical. Most people get stuck at 350-360 rwhp no matter what other mods they have. Getting beyond those numbers can be done as demonstrated by Kevin & Travis, it's just not as easy as people think it is.

David

[supercatxr7]

I have the MPIII and have run a best of 12.19 at 112 mph. It's a good value for the money. I have a 20% jackshaft pulley on the way like Kevin has as well and I believe I can push the car into the 11's.

[Grims95SC]

I have the MPIII and have run a best of 12.19 at 112 mph. It's a good value for the money. I have a 20% jackshaft pulley on the way like Kevin has as well and I believe I can push the car into the 11's.
But you've also done your heads and cam. That'll allow for a lot more airflow than stock.
Would it be fair to say the MPIII isn't worth it unless you have your heads and cam done? It doesn't seem to do much, or anything if both are untouched.

[tbirdsc357]

..............

[mywhite89]

Need to find a way from inside the car to know the methanol injection is working before you use it. Hate to have that happen again whether it was the advanced timing that blew your gaskets or not. I really havent seen a kit before so maybe I sound stupid but I think I would run a pressure gauge up to the line to make sure it was working.

[ss_scuba]

The snowperformance kits include an led to indicate when the pump activates...but that doesn't mean the juice is flowing. Marty's using the windshield washer container, so he uses the VMM to tell when it's low.

We still can't figure out why there was no juice...it was either from an airlock somewhere or a faulty solenoid. Gonna have to test it later on.

[supercatxr7]

I had the solenoid go bad on my Snow Methanol kit. Luckily I have a true a/f gauge in the car and noticed it had started to go lean. Check the solenoid, it may click, but may not be fully opening. Just blow through it to test.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

The snowperformance kits include an led to indicate when the pump activates...but that doesn't mean the juice is flowing. Marty's using the windshield washer container, so he uses the VMM to tell when it's low.

We still can't figure out why there was no juice...it was either from an airlock somewhere or a faulty solenoid. Gonna have to test it later on.

I had the solenoid go bad on my Snow Methanol kit. Luckily I have a true a/f gauge in the car and noticed it had started to go lean. Check the solenoid, it may click, but may not be fully opening. Just blow through it to test.


Huh ... no kidding.

Anyone have the info on what Nitro does to a gasoline engine? Why isn't the Snow Performance dealer standing behind what they sell? Or are they and we just don't know about it yet.

Eitherway, its not good that something like this happened. Best of luck to you, and I hope you get things sorted out.

[XR7 Dave]

Why isn't the Snow Performance dealer standing behind what they sell? Or are they and we just don't know about it yet.

Eitherway, its not good that something like this happened. Best of luck to you, and I hope you get things sorted out.

The Snow Performance dealer does stand behind the product. Mark's solenoid was replaced under their lifetime warr., no questions asked.

You said this would happen and now it did. We should start calling you "Madam".

:)

[Toms-SC]

Go to bed Dave. I got lost after dropping you off. :p

Chocolate Rolo cake anyone?

[CarlisleLandOwn]

The Snow Performance dealer does stand behind the product. Mark's solenoid was replaced under their lifetime warr., no questions asked.

You said this would happen and now it did. We should start calling you "Madam".

:)


How about the "NITRO"? Is it actually Nitro methane? And if it is, why was it implemented on a car whose air fuel was yet to be stabilized, and even then, not enriched enough for even a small percentage of nitro methane?

:)

[XR7 Dave]

How about the "NITRO"? Is it actually Nitro methane? And if it is, why was it implemented on a car whose air fuel was yet to be stabilized, and even then, not enriched enough for even a small percentage of nitro methane?

:)

If you read above you will realize that the car was tuned and the AFR dialed in exactly where we wanted it. The car NEVER leaned out and the timing was not THAT aggressive. The nitro never made it into the motor.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

If you read above you will realize that the car was tuned and the AFR dialed in exactly where we wanted it. The car NEVER leaned out and the timing was not THAT aggressive. The nitro never made it into the motor.

So your saying that if there was a way, somehow, to control the car, slow it down, and see what kind of power it was making so that you could verify its maximum cylinder pressure BEFORE detonation while tuning it would be a good thing? And doing "pulls" at wot things happen too fast for you to save an engine from head lifting detonation?

Just respectfully asking.:)

[XR7 Dave]

So your saying that if there was a way, somehow, to control the car, slow it down, and see what kind of power it was making so that you could verify its maximum cylinder pressure BEFORE detonation while tuning it would be a good thing? And doing "pulls" at wot things happen too fast for you to save an engine from head lifting detonation?

Just respectfully asking.:)

That's not what I was saying, but yes, tuning on a dyno such as you have would be a nice luxury to have. I was just saying that the AFR was stabilized before the Nitro methane was attempted. I feel that the headgasket failure was absolutely caused by the failure of the alcohol sytem to spray and that the failure of the system to spray was the direct result of draining the lines and not testing the spray pattern after doing so. Perhaps we need a "purge line" for the alcohol system...

[CarlisleLandOwn]

That's not what I was saying, but yes, tuning on a dyno such as you have would be a nice luxury to have. I was just saying that the AFR was stabilized before the Nitro methane was attempted. I feel that the headgasket failure was absolutely caused by the failure of the alcohol sytem to spray and that the failure of the system to spray was the direct result of draining the lines and not testing the spray pattern after doing so. Perhaps we need a "purge line" for the alcohol system...

May I respectfully ask what Snow Performance is doing about the failure other then a solenoid replacement? Is it like any and all other performance parts where there is no warranty on what may be called collateral damage? And if not, what safety gear is there to keep this from happening again? Are there "other" ways to setup the vehicle with less chance of possible failure?

On a tuning note, is Nitro Methane safe to inject into an engine that was tuned to an air/fuel and timing map without it? In other words, can we just hook it up and go or is there something else that needs to be accounted for? I'm sure there are others wondering, after all nitro makes a TON of power when setup properly.

[XR7 Dave]

May I respectfully ask what Snow Performance is doing about the failure other then a solenoid replacement? Is it like any and all other performance parts where there is no warranty on what may be called collateral damage? And if not, what safety gear is there to keep this from happening again? Are there "other" ways to setup the vehicle with less chance of possible failure?

On a tuning note, is Nitro Methane safe to inject into an engine that was tuned to an air/fuel and timing map without it? In other words, can we just hook it up and go or is there something else that needs to be accounted for? I'm sure there are others wondering, after all nitro makes a TON of power when setup properly.

Snow replaced the solenoid. Like any other performance part (or even standard replacement part) there is no coverage for collateral damage.

Snow offers what they call "Safe Injection" which has been discussed here on the SCCOA before. It monitors fluid flow volume and sends out a warning if flow drops below a preset amount. I have not tested this device though I do have one and will be using it. If you check Snow's website you will see the product listed there.

As for the nitro methane, it is diluted to a specific % and injected along with the normal alcohol mixture. Snow claims it is perfectly safe and will not lean out the motor when used as directed nor would it require any re-tuning (as in reduced timing). Had it worked we were looking for a 20-30rwhp gain.

[SCaddict]

Now I am even more confused! I just tested the Snow system to make sure it works and it did. So, I drained the tank and the feed line, filled it again and it worked fine. There might be a 1/2 delay from when the pump kicks in and the juice comes out the nozzle but it did work.:confused: I know it had nothing to do with the tune because we had it dialed in and then I ran it again and the damage occured.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I mentioned this problemawhile back. Mustang guys were having issues blowing uo due to faulty alcohol injection systems. Our cars will be no different. If you tune in more timing for a power increaseand something goes wrong...Its a gonner. The old aluminum buick v8's has alchy injection from teh factory back in the 60's....They stopped using it because of ISSUES with motors blowing up.

As far as people running lower numbers with the mpIII. If your car was originally dynoed on a dynojet you cant really compare the numbers as teh mustang dyno will give you lower number just by design...Also different dyno operators set up (mess with) their dynoes to give certain gains that may not reflect actual numbers. And again the altitude of where you are located would automatically lessen numbers extensively so to compare your #'s to that on teh MP website just isnt fair.

Regardless I hope everyone gets thier stuff straightened out as I want to see some good numbers from teh shootout@!

Damon

[Phillio99]

dalke, how do you tune for meth injection especially this "nitro" injection? Are you adding a lot of global spark or are you adding spark in the spark vs. ACT? Im no expert tuner, i was under the impression that with water injection minimal tuning would be needed because the ACT sensor would pick up the lower ACT temps and add timing accordingly. I guess you could add a lot more timing in the "optimal" ACT temp range, Im just wondering.
Thanks,
phil

[SCaddict]

I mentioned this problemawhile back. Mustang guys were having issues blowing uo due to faulty alcohol injection systems. Our cars will be no different. If you tune in more timing for a power increaseand something goes wrong...Its a gonner. The old aluminum buick v8's has alchy injection from teh factory back in the 60's....They stopped using it because of ISSUES with motors blowing up.

As far as people running lower numbers with the mpIII. If your car was originally dynoed on a dynojet you cant really compare the numbers as teh mustang dyno will give you lower number just by design...Also different dyno operators set up (mess with) their dynoes to give certain gains that may not reflect actual numbers. And again the altitude of where you are located would automatically lessen numbers extensively so to compare your #'s to that on teh MP website just isnt fair.

Regardless I hope everyone gets thier stuff straightened out as I want to see some good numbers from teh shootout@!

Damon

The alky is working fine. I may have just lifted a head with the 19psi I was seeing. My car is always dyno'd at the same place with the same guy. The reason my numbers may be a little down is the new Lentech with a non-locking converter.

Marty

[vgfedor]

XR7 Dave D.;
Just want to say "Thanks" for making the effort to come out West and tune my car (as well as others). I know flying across two time zones is tiring and working late into the night is tiring so I want to say thanks for the effort.

[Dirk SC]

Chocolate Rolo cake anyone?

Ha, Only if there are about 10 people to share a peice. Dont say i didnt warn you guys :eek: And thanks again Dave.

[XR7 Dave]

If your car was originally dynoed on a dynojet you cant really compare the numbers as teh mustang dyno will give you lower number just by design...Also different dyno operators set up (mess with) their dynoes to give certain gains that may not reflect actual numbers. And again the altitude of where you are located would automatically lessen numbers extensively so to compare your #'s to that on teh MP website just isnt fair.


Damon

Dave Sabados dyno'd 265rwhp at the SC Shootout and then 259rwhp this weekend with no changes other than a TB so the numbers aren't all that far off. We ran a stock 95 SC with stock blower and stock 89 drive pulley on the street against Tom's car with the MPIII at 15% OD and were able to pull about a fender on a solid second gear pull. The 95 dyno'd 225rwhp and Tom dyno'd about 240rwhp so the results seem about right. The car feels like 240rwhp but then again altitude plays into that. The car would probably make 265 at sea level.

[SCaddict]

I will have my car together in the next day or 2 and I will race both of them!:D

Marty

[Toms-SC]

Take a guess how much that vender cost me :D

[Big Cat Davo]

Oh Dave, I made a couple of other changes, not sure how much of a differance it would make, I kind of overlooked it . . . I removed the AC compressor, so it is no longer spinning that pulley, and I added 5% more overdrive with the jackshaft inaddition to the already mentioned MP TB . . . with any luck we will see what the car lays down at the Shoot Out.

Dave

[SCaddict]

Here are some pics of some more damage I found this HG job.

[SCaddict]

Funny thing is I was looking at some old pics of my last HG job and I found that the damage on #3 was already there. I must have forgot there was damage. The damage in #1 happened some time in the last year and a half. I don't know if the alky was spraying or not, but I think the HG's went mostly because of the heads lifting. Here is an older pic of #3 and 1,2,3.

Marty

[sizemoremk]

Do you think monitoring the ACT would be sufficient to prevent this, or would it be too late?

How long was the pull before she blew?

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

how did the gaskets look?

[Toms-SC]

worst pop I've ever seen

[SCaddict]

worst pop I've ever seen

I thought they looked pretty sweet.:p I will post pics tomorrow.


Marty

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Do you think monitoring the ACT would be sufficient to prevent this, or would it be too late?

How long was the pull before she blew?


Tuning properly on a proper load beaing dyno would have prevented this. Dyno "PULLS" are not tuning, they are guessing, hopeing, and praying that you don't run into detonation. If you do run into detonation its too late the deed is done. There are "other" methods of tuning that give you a nice SAFE warning BEFORE you run into detonation. Proper method + Proper Tools = Proper and Safe Tuning.

[XR7 Dave]

Tuning properly on a proper load beaing dyno would have prevented this. Dyno "PULLS" are not tuning, they are guessing, hopeing, and praying that you don't run into detonation. If you do run into detonation its too late the deed is done. There are "other" methods of tuning that give you a nice SAFE warning BEFORE you run into detonation. Proper method + Proper Tools = Proper and Safe Tuning.

No, you have missed the point once again. The headgasket failure was not the result of the tuning process. The trigger that popped the gaskets was the failure of the Snow system to activate. The car was already tuned safely before that happened. It could just as easily have happened on the street or at the track.

Instead of using every chance possible to bash what I do, you could have just as easily taken the time to answer the question. "Would monitoring ACT's help prevent the situation that led the the blown headgasket?"

My answer is that it may help if you have a lot of datalogging with the car on the street so that you know exactly how the IC reacts under real conditions. For example, on the dyno my car may only see 85deg at the onset of WOT, and at the end of pull see 95deg, but on the street I might see 100 deg at the start and 130 deg before the end of the track. Without the alcohol I might see the same 100 deg at the beginning and 160 deg at the end. But then if it were cold vs. hot out I'd see different numbers again.

The biggest thing is that when the alcohol hits you see an instant drop in temps of about 5-10 deg from whatever they were when you started. The hard part is knowing where they are going to start. If you can visually monitor this then you would know it's working. In Marty's case, no one saw the fact that ACT's did not drop at the onset of load.

[Randy N Connie]

Why are the MPIII having detonation problems?
With or without a snow system.

Would it be because of belt slip. making the boost go up and down
and causing rapid ACT temp change.

Isnt there a way to hook a voltage monitor to the knock
sensor to veiw the rise in the knock voltage? or just a
LED light.

CarlisleLandOwn You remind me of some of the teachers I had.
Talk all day and not say anything. Have you ever given any
thought to being a politician. You can BAL-BAL-BAL- all day
long, and cut thoat and be payed with great benifits. How
abought some meat & taders in your post to help others in
your next post.This would be a great help to us lowly laymens.
We all know dave do's not know every thing there is to know.
But a least he tries to help out. To make the SC world better.
It would be nice of you to try and help out here. You can
PM dave and belittle him, doing it this way you can say any
thing you want..And leave the rest of us out of the meat
contest.

What brand name or type dynos would be the best to use?
I have lost a head gasket every time I have been on a dyno.
So what dynos with data log acc. are good to use. And the
ones to stay away from?

Thanks Randy

[SCaddict]

Does it mean anything to any of the critics, that I said that it may have happened before the dyno tuning. I ran it lean, I bagged on it not knowing I was missing about 12psi of fuel pressure at idle so running real lean up top. I raced it a few times after I fixed the FP problem and it was still lean. It could have been like this for a while. I think we may have had a problem with the snow kit, but it is working perfectly. So, before ANYBODY jumps down Dave's throat for something I did, then they need their head examined. Even if it did have something to do with the tune, which it didn't, it was ME again who wanted Dave to get some power out of it.

Marty

[XR7 Dave]

Why are the MPIII having detonation problems?
With or without a snow system.


Thanks Randy

I would not say that it is the MPIII that is having detonation problems. ACT's were not abnormally high. In Marty's case I don't believe that belt slip was an issue either. He had the MP 10% crank pulley, a 5% JS pulley and a 10% blower pulley along with the new heavy duty tensioner springs. We logged boost and saw no reason to believe there was belt slip. He was achieving about 19psi on the top end. If we believe that the 247rwhp (with alcohol) is 11% low then we could guess that 272rwhp would be closer to the truth.

[Randy N Connie]

I would not say that it is the MPIII that is having detonation problems. ACT's were not abnormally high. In Marty's case I don't believe that belt slip was an issue either. He had the MP 10% crank pulley, a 5% JS pulley and a 10% blower pulley along with the new heavy duty tensioner springs. We logged boost and saw no reason to believe there was belt slip. He was achieving about 19psi on the top end. If we believe that the 247rwhp (with alcohol) is 11% low then we could guess that 272rwhp would be closer to the truth.

272rwhp sounds like a good rwhp number .for maybe having seaping
head gaskets. And running a non-loc convertor. But having
ported heads I would think the rwhp should be higher,like
more than 300rwhp. With the non-lock convertor it may be.

After reading about the Canada tuning.And seeing the low
rwhp coming from the MPIII ,again. I was going to swap
out my MPIII for my A/R blower, for the shootout. But
now I may just run the MPIII. Will not need any extra
power from the A/R for the win.:) just jokin with you all.

[mywhite89]

What does ACT stand for? Air Charge Temperature, right?

I am wondering what tuning changes typically are made when using methanol injection. I know you are able to advance the timing. This would then require more fuel or higher pressure?

[SCaddict]

What does ACT stand for? Air Charge Temperature, right?

I am wondering what tuning changes typically are made when using methanol injection. I know you are able to advance the timing. This would then require more fuel or higher pressure?

Methanol is fuel so there is no need for extra fuel or pressure. Some use it for protection against detonation and others add timing for more power. I have 2 tunes one with methanol as a safe guard and the other for more power. I really like the kit.

[Phillio99]

dalke, how do you tune for meth injection especially this "nitro" injection? Are you adding a lot of global spark or are you adding spark in the spark vs. ACT? Im no expert tuner, i was under the impression that with water injection minimal tuning would be needed because the ACT sensor would pick up the lower ACT temps and add timing accordingly. I guess you could add a lot more timing in the "optimal" ACT temp range, Im just wondering.
Thanks,
phil

I was wondering the same thing about alc/water injection
Phil

[XR7 Dave]

I was wondering how do you tune for meth injection especially this "nitro" injection? Are you adding a lot of global spark or are you adding spark in the spark vs. ACT? Im no expert tuner, i was under the impression that with water injection minimal tuning would be needed because the ACT sensor would pick up the lower ACT temps and add timing accordingly. I guess you could add a lot more timing in the "optimal" ACT temp range, Im just wondering.
Phil

Using ACT's to infer that the alcohol is spraying would not be a valid method of adding timing. The alcohol inceases the octane rating of the fuel but the EEC would not know the difference between a cold day without alcohol and a hot day with, meaning that a specific ACT would not necessarily mean a specific amount of alcohol was present.

Adding timing is not a power adder. Being able to run optimal spark without detonation is they key. SC's typically have stock timing that is near optimal and rely on the knock sensor and ACT sensor quite heavily to compensate for less than optimal conditions. Many SC's run into detonation even in stock form before it becomes audible which means that many people on any given day are running with their engines hovering around borderline knock all the time. Few people understand this.

So when we have a properly functioning alcohol system there often isn't a lot to be gained through added timing. Chances are the stock timing is very close to where you need to be anyhow. If you have an OD pulley, you really should have pulled timing just to be safe. Running the alcohol on 90% of the SC's out there with no tuning at all would be a good thing.

Most people will not make more power with alcohol because like I said, they are already at or near optimum spark. What they don't know is that they are flilrting with detonation, and possibly HARD up against the knock sensor the whole time they are at WOT! I absolutely guarantee that pretty much anyone with an OD pulley on a 94/95 SC that has not been tuned (and tuned to REDUCE commanded timing) is running 100% against the knock sensor under boost.

Many times the mistake is made when dyno tuning to add timing until the motor stops making more power and/or audible knock is heard. This is a mistake that can be costly. A motor will make more power with small amounts of knock occuring vs. a motor running at optimal timing. When a motor actually loses power from detonation, then it has become severe at that point and damage is imminent.

[Toms-SC]

Quick side note: XR7 Dave, when it comes to cams on our cars do you prefer regrinds or new blank cores? :confused:

[ss_scuba]

Blank cores! they've never been stressed yet, and there's no chance of grinding too much in a previous heat treatment.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Always a new grind...