A better cylinder head.....

We all know that the cylinder head/intake manifold arrangement on the SC is a major achilles heel for us. So what is the interest in a NEW cylinder head package and matching intake manifold?

Up to 400rwhp and 6000rpm the OE heads do "ok" perhaps but what if you could make more power with less boost and not have to worry about cracking heads or lifting due to flexing between the bolts? What if you had the ability to run 8500rpm without worrying about valvetrain stability and had the ability to run high boost all the way up to that level and beyond? 700-800hp is not out of the realm of possibilites if we can flow enough air.

Is the SC community ready for such a product? Would you be interested in a cylinder head that would flow 300cfm out of the box and have the potential of flowing 380+cfm with professional porting? It could happen.

There is a cylinder head casting company looking seriously at the 3.8L Ford market right now that has the ability to create a "clean slate" cylinder head for our motors. If we can show the kind of interest that would make this a legitimate offering for this company then let me know. It can happen if there is enough interest.

Vote on the poll and post any comments below.

Hell yea we need some head's

I put yes but the time frame for this must not be 'years'. I would like to see something concrete in the coming months.

An added concern I would have is the water passages lining up. From my understanding only a select year of V6 Mustang heads will work on our application.

Though I applaud the effort, I have to seriously wonder about Damon's price references. Kenny D. and TA Performance were able to cast a whole new head AND block and sell them at what I believe racers consider to be a reasonable cost. David have you or those involved investigated why their retail cost is so much lower than the current proposed cost? I realize the quoted price is just an estimate, however, a 30% spread is a bit much.

It would be easier to adapt a 3.8L Buick head than the 4.5L SVO head.

Click to expand...

Have you investigated doing just that and then concentrating R&D efforts into an improved manifold design to compliment? It appears to me from the R&D you posted earlier regarding our current head and intake manifold options that perhaps our efforts should be directed a bit different. You presented that we are not currently taking advantage of the heads that we do have available so I have to wonder where we would be if a manifold was developed first that could later be implemented to use with an aftermarkt head?

If such a head is developed, in addition to a better deck, will there be provisions for additional bolts like the TA heads? It has been said that Morana has developed a way to add additional holes to stock heads and blocks, has this been evaluated?

Paul

BT Motorsports said:

Though I applaud the effort, I have to seriously wonder about Damon's price references. Kenny D. and TA Performance were able to cast a whole new head AND block and sell them at what I believe racers consider to be a reasonable cost. David have you or those involved investigated why their retail cost is so much lower than the current proposed cost? I realize the quoted price is just an estimate, however, a 30% spread is a bit much.

Click to expand...

The poll is a question intended to judge interest. It is not an offering for sale. Don't get too carried away with questions of price at this point. The offer, when made will represent the actual cost with factors built in very much the same as the TA heads. Any manufacturer looks at anticipated volume, R&D costs, and production costs and then sets up their prices accordingly. What the projections were for those heads vs. the projections for ours - I cannot say because I do not know.

Have you investigated doing just that (using the Buick 3.8 head)and then concentrating R&D efforts into an improved manifold design to compliment? It appears to me from the R&D you posted earlier regarding our current head and intake manifold options that perhaps our efforts should be directed a bit different. You presented that we are not currently taking advantage of the heads that we do have available so I have to wonder where we would be if a manifold was developed first that could later be implemented to use with an aftermarkt head?

Click to expand...

As stated above, a new intake is part of the plan. It would be logical to first create a better manifold for our existing heads, but then when we found the limits of that combination we would look for something more..... Some of us feel that the SC community is tired of incremental improvements. I think what we want is the best that we can do and perhaps now is the right time to make that step. So instead of developing a manifold that works better with our existing heads, why not concentrate on a product that simply antiquates our current hardware?

Ultimately the actual route to go in regards to the actual cylinder head design, whether it borrows from the SVO or the Buick head is not an issue that I will be involved in. The choice will be left to those who are actually designing the head and most likely the final choice will be dependant on the physical layout of the valvetrain, coolant passages, and port shapes. This is not something that I claim to have enough knowledge to be able to make any decision on. That will be left up to the manufacturer/designer.

If such a head is developed, in addition to a better deck, will there be provisions for additional bolts like the TA heads? It has been said that Morana has developed a way to add additional holes to stock heads and blocks, has this been evaluated?

Paul

Click to expand...

Tom Morana tapped the outer edge of the cylinder bore for a small bolt which would function similar to a head clamp. I am not aware of this being part of the plan for the new head. I'm not sure that it would be necessary or even beneficial with a properly designed deck. As often as not our headgaskets blow in other areas than just around the spark plug where the extra bolt would be.

Toms-SC said:

An added concern I would have is the water passages lining up. From my understanding only a select year of V6 Mustang heads will work on our application.

Click to expand...

Water passages are a function of the cylinder heads, not the block. All blocks are the same so a new cylinder head would not be affected by the different water passage designs. The new heads would not necessarily be the same as any previous design.

Where the intake bolts on and the crossover passage is is universal for all 3.8's. But again, the new heads may or may not follow that lead.

As for a timeline, the first step is to show sufficient interest for us to be able to present the designer with a viable business opportunity for which to go ahead with the R&D. As CMac89 mentioned, it is possible to go from idea to blueprints in a matter of a few months. How long the rest of the process takes I do not know.

I'm interested in how the new manifold is to be designed.

I'm working on my own manifold right now, and the biggest thing that I can see as an issue for more than mine is hood clearance. I've got plenty of clearance, but what I'm looking at, a 1.5" cowl isn't tall enough. I'm sure that hood clearance has been thought about, but I also know that there's not a lot of room under there.

As for new heads, that would be great, so long as they can work with the stock set-up. I'd hate to have to drop additional money for custom exhaust headers because it's different than stock. That adds a lot more to the cost. If they're bolt on heads, great!

XR7 Dave said:

Where the intake bolts on and the crossover passage is is universal for all 3.8's. But again, the new heads may or may not follow that lead.

Click to expand...

I've got a set of 3.8 heads right now that 2 of the mounting bolt holes for the manifold are different than the SC. Not sure what 3.8 heads they are, but 2 definitely don't line up, so they're not all universal.

I saw your post on the V6power boards. You have sparked my interest. I know from what you said keeping the intake ports in the stock location is not going to happen. The custom intake manifold issue concerns me, I have watched the drama with the splitport Mustang guys and the quest for a M112 splitport intake. Also I guess with canted valves a new piston design will most likely be required.

A direct bolt on head woyld be most bennificial to all as well as to teh developer. As much as a NASCAR type head would be nice..From a production standpoint it will sell in only small numbers....I'd want one but I feel the profit is not there for the developer. Something that can use factory intakes I think is key. Raising the exhhaust port slightly not as much of a problem...

To date the best power making heads I have ever had were a set of old TFS high ports in Iron.

This is what should be discussed before spending money on R&D

A set of really good heads that use factory parts...Or a set of race oriented heads that NEED non factory parts. I'm sure a guy with a v6 stang or an SC would love a direct bolt on head that could give them an honest 40rwhp and better head gasket sealing characteristics...

Price and compatability are key to any successful product....

007_SuperCoupe said:

I'm interested in how the new manifold is to be designed.

I'm working on my own manifold right now, and the biggest thing that I can see as an issue for more than mine is hood clearance. I've got plenty of clearance, but what I'm looking at, a 1.5" cowl isn't tall enough. I'm sure that hood clearance has been thought about, but I also know that there's not a lot of room under there.

As for new heads, that would be great, so long as they can work with the stock set-up. I'd hate to have to drop additional money for custom exhaust headers because it's different than stock. That adds a lot more to the cost. If they're bolt on heads, great!



I've got a set of 3.8 heads right now that 2 of the mounting bolt holes for the manifold are different than the SC. Not sure what 3.8 heads they are, but 2 definitely don't line up, so they're not all universal.

Click to expand...

We aren't worried about the mounting bolts. We are talking only about water passages to the block. The heads will require a new intake manifold. I don't believe there is enough gain to be had with the existing intake manifold to make this a worthwhile venture keeping that as it is. By retaining the dogleg center port you limit the potential of the head and furthermore with the stock manifold the benefit of a better flowing port would not be seen. The stock intake will not flow more than 210cfm.

I realize that the Mustang community has been through hell trying to get an intake for their motors, but this is different. We have a company with the very real capability of making a manifold along with the heads, not a speed shop or an individual trying to make something that is beyond their capabilties.

Something that can also be addressed is the thermostat housing itself. The housing is a problem for many larger blower applications. By removing it or moving it or at least changing it's configuration we can then make use of larger blowers like the M112 - M122 as well as larger AR's without people having to give up their air to air IC's. There is no reason why we can't fit the blowers under a stock hood for those who want it all with the use of a new manifold.

For those who don't want a stock hood then a short runner manifold with air/water IC built in can be fitted, or a long runner top can be used for turbo, NA, or centrifugal applications.

Yes, the intake manifold is a big part of this, but as I said before, do we really want a new intake for our substandard head design? Why not get both items at once. I think that a good head/intake package will give life to these motors that far exceeds anything any of us envisioned. These old OE heads have a limited lifespan and we may be nearing the end of it. I should know, I port these heads for part of my living. Many castings have to be scrapped or undergo expensive repairs to be used. Even then, the castings are very porus and some are highly fatigued. How long will they last? Anybody's guess.

I cannot commit to any type of time frame, but I don't see why I wouldn't buy a set....heck I've bought just about everything else.

Now were talking....I'd be all over that.

This sounds great. And will save me a few grand not casting
any manifolds up. I had been in talks the last few mounth
about casting some new manifolds for the 3.8 SC.. And
announce this few weeks ago.

I was just getting ready to ship a copy of my new designed
manifold for inspection and final casting prices. To Charles of MP.
Glad you posted this now I can back off on this part to.
And save me time and money.

The guess-stament start up price for a manifold casting was around $15,000.00.
I asked about heads, Its double price for the heads.
This is with all parts designed and first master built.

Randy

I would also post this information on the Mustang V6 boards. They may not be able to use the intake manifold but I bet they would be all over the heads if they are made.

you could pattern it after the 4.5 nascar motor heads, they have huge, strait ports and a flange i don't think anybody could lift! or cut off two cylinders of the twisted wedge sbf heads and weld em up!

The information has been posted on the V6 Mustang boards. The head design would most likely include a modular intake base that would accept a variety of tops based on application from a standard SC configuration to a long runner N/A design as well as an air/water integrated design for inverted blower setups with large blowers like the M122 and AR designs. This intake would be at additional cost (most likely in the $500 range).

Determining if there is sufficient interest to warrant the R&D that would go into such a head is the purpose of these posts. This is something that could easily take the SC motor to a whole new level if we can come together as a community and support the development of a new product such as this.

This is not a 'vendor for profit' arrangement. It would be manufacturer direct for all of us. While the costs are higher than for what is currently available, the costs listed would be direct parts and labor to the manufacturer.

Personally, If I was to buy a set of ~$2000 heads I would not take kindly to still needing to get them ported, espically when a good porting job seems to run near $1000.

ben m said:

you could pattern it after the 4.5 nascar motor heads, they have huge, strait ports and a flange i don't think anybody could lift! or cut off two cylinders of the twisted wedge sbf heads and weld em up!

Click to expand...

Due to the process of designing a cylinder head and the # of changes required this is not a practical solution. Those heads mentioned employ a 4.0" bore and therefore completely different bolt spacing, etc. It would be easier to adapt a 3.8L Buick head than the 4.5L SVO head.

If we go with that head design, how will it effect the cranks on our engines.....

Will our stock cranks be capable of handling that kind of HP #s that these heads will give us?????

Or will we end up like the Mustang at the shoot out......