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Kevin Leitem
10-23-2006, 04:22 PM
I have been trying to talk charles from Magnum Powers into making a cog belt system for our cars. I am asking how many people would be interested in this if they would never have to worry about belt slip again?

Nettlesd
10-23-2006, 04:28 PM
I tried this several years ago with Rich (prostreetrich). At a cost of $700, only Rich and I were willing to buy a set. It was dropped when I couldn't get the required 5-7 people to buy in.

Micahdogg
10-23-2006, 04:33 PM
VW 2.0L engines come with really nice looking cogged pulleys for the crank, cam and water pump in varying sizes. I'm sure with some machining and adapter pieces (quick change style) you could do something cogged for far less. I know timing belts are usually $35 a pop. You could probably get some of the pulleys for free or next to nothing (lot of dead water pumps and stock cam gears laying around).

Just a thought if you want to go cogged, but not pay for custom machined stuff. Just looking at a water pump pulley off the 2.0L VW motor, it looks pretty close in size to a blower pulley.

Micah

Ken Seegers
10-23-2006, 04:35 PM
Kevin,
It would be nice, but what would the price for the pulley set. Also could they be used on the street?

Thanks
Ken

Kevin Leitem
10-23-2006, 04:50 PM
Kevin,
It would be nice, but what would the price for the pulley set. Also could they be used on the street?

Thanks
Ken

I don't know on the cost, a little more due to extra machining time, but i think it can be reasonable. as for the street, yes they are streetable, probably will have a little whine to them.

Kevin Leitem
10-23-2006, 04:55 PM
why did this get moved? It is not a definate group buy. just wanted to see if there was interest before we move forward.

Toms-SC
10-23-2006, 04:58 PM
I would be concerned with snapping the input shaft in the supercharger snout.

Kevin Leitem
10-23-2006, 05:19 PM
I would be concerned with snapping the input shaft in the supercharger snout.

i don't think that should be a concern, it would be easier on the snout bearings, idler bearings and even crank bearings. you wouldn't need a ton of tension, Just a little.

Toms-SC
10-23-2006, 05:29 PM
How? as far as I understand this won't allow for any play in the pulleys/belts. :eek: This is an interesting subject and I'd like to learn about it some more. :)

Kevin Leitem
10-23-2006, 06:06 PM
How? as far as I understand this won't allow for any play in the pulleys/belts. :eek: This is an interesting subject and I'd like to learn about it some more. :)

there won't be any slip, but since it uses cogs, it doesnt need tension to make it grip. really just need an idler to prevent it from skipping a cog

supercatxr7
10-23-2006, 07:04 PM
Interested for sure.

mark

sizemoremk
10-23-2006, 08:21 PM
Certainly, but at nowhere near $$$700...

I think the timing gear idea may be a direction to look at as well.

I am polishing tensioner pullies, so I know I save at least some belt slip...

I was thinking of putting some track bite on it the belts for strip use, but some cogged pullies if affordable would be awesome!

Ken Seegers
10-23-2006, 08:24 PM
I don't know on the cost, a little more due to extra machining time, but i think it can be reasonable. as for the street, yes they are streetable, probably will have a little whine to them.

Kevin,
I will not mind the whine. What will the OD options be?

Thanks
Ken

Mike8675309
10-23-2006, 08:59 PM
I would be interested, but what I'd want is a changeable system. I.e. I would want it straight pulley for the street and then use coggs for the track or for shows.

I guess that means just make the blower pulley quick change. Ideally too the blower pulley would be a little larger to look closer to the ominous image of a 671 pulley.

BTW - thread would be better in the new products area where most new discussions of vapor hardware exists. But it'll work here.

bowez
10-23-2006, 09:24 PM
We have a non-geared belt to help prevent detenation by allowing slippage.

Jason Wild
10-23-2006, 09:27 PM
Cool Idea I had looked at this in the past but the cost is high to make just one set.
If MP does not make a set I might know someone thats willing to make some.

Kevin Leitem
10-23-2006, 09:33 PM
Kevin,
I will not mind the whine. What will the OD options be?

Thanks
Ken

we haven't gotten that far yet, but i know charles talked about a quick change blower pully design to be able to change OD

Kevin Leitem
10-23-2006, 09:35 PM
BTW - thread would be better in the new products area where most new discussions of vapor hardware exists. But it'll work here.

This is where it was moved by the sccoa, i started it in non tech forum.

Mike8675309
10-23-2006, 11:21 PM
This is where it was moved by the sccoa, i started it in non tech forum.

Oh, I know... the moderator just doesn't read enough threads here to know where it fits best, only where it doesn't fit apparently.

but heck yeah, cogged pullies please, just make the blower one quick change or easy to move around.

Super XR7
10-24-2006, 12:19 PM
I just bought a Mori Seiki NL2500YMC lathe with milling capability but will not recieve until the end of Decemeber. I am interested in making a cog pullies if you can wait until the first of 07. It would have to be a group buy of at least ten sets (jack shaft and SC pully). The jack shaft pully could also have the 8th rib added for those with a 8 rib crank pully.

We could also design in the quick change capability.

Mike

CMac89
10-24-2006, 12:32 PM
Couldn't you offer a machining service with pullies provided, or would you have to start from scratch?

Nettlesd
10-24-2006, 12:59 PM
Wouldn't you also need a crank pulley and tensioner pulley to make it all work? I mean, if you don't want any belt slip then you would want a crank pulley, jackshaft pulley, blower pulley and tensioner pulley.

90blkbrd
10-24-2006, 01:07 PM
You wouldn't need a tensioner pulley because it rides on the smooth side of the ribbed belt. Right?

Nettlesd
10-24-2006, 01:09 PM
I could be wrong but I would think you would need a tensioner pulley with sides to keep the belt true. Same thing as the 6-71 blowers use.

victor malvar
10-24-2006, 03:57 PM
Hi Kevin, Guys,

I, also spoke to Charles about this I feel it would be a good solution to belt slippage

I am working on using two Superchargers at one time. I am talking to Charles about this possibility/probability. I am Planning a 4.2L engine with double S. Chargers to run in the Salt next year. This project has already started. I hope I will be able to reach this goal. I think this is a great idea.

Kevin, I am sorry I could not get with you before the shoot out. I had some medical issues that could not be put on hold. Congrats on a great run to you as well as all the other participants that ran so well!!!. Hope to see you next year. I will try to give you a shout as soon as I get a few minutes!

Regards,
Victor....

sizemoremk
10-24-2006, 05:21 PM
Hi Kevin, Guys,

I, also spoke to Charles about this I feel it would be a good solution to belt slippage

I am working on using two Superchargers at one time. I am talking to Charles about this possibility/probability. I am Planning a 4.2L engine with double S. Chargers to run in the Salt next year. This project has already started. I hope I will be able to reach this goal. I think this is a great idea.

Kevin, I am sorry I could not get with you before the shoot out. I had some medical issues that could not be put on hold. Congrats on a great run to you as well as all the other participants that ran so well!!!. Hope to see you next year. I will try to give you a shout as soon as I get a few minutes!

Regards,
Victor....

Keep it out of the salt man, you don't want to rust yer SC do ya???

90blkbrd
10-24-2006, 05:47 PM
I could be wrong but I would think you would need a tensioner pulley with sides to keep the belt true. Same thing as the 6-71 blowers use.

Your right, at least one of the pulleys need sides.

Super XR7
10-24-2006, 06:06 PM
Couldn't you offer a machining service with pulleys provided, or would you have to start from scratch?

It would be best to start from scratch, especially if one would want to make it changeable with a standard rib design.

Mike

The_Ghost
10-24-2006, 09:02 PM
I am working on using two Superchargers at one time. I am talking to Charles about this possibility/probability. I am Planning a 4.2L engine with double S. Chargers to run in the Salt next year. This project has already started. I hope I will be able to reach this goal. I think this is a great idea.
Victor....

victor, you are an evil man. +5 points for you.

How big of a problem is belt slip? I dont notice any, but I guess that's because I am stock.

-Ghost

sizemoremk
10-24-2006, 09:22 PM
victor, you are an evil man. +5 points for you.

How big of a problem is belt slip? I dont notice any, but I guess that's because I am stock.

-Ghost

As XR7 Dave pointed out to me, is it polishing the tensioner pulley(s)????
Assuming you have the painted metal ones, and not the stock plastic'ns...

Mike8675309
10-24-2006, 10:16 PM
Note, our belts won't need to be as wide as those beasts they run on the 671. For a cogged setup, you'll need at the very least a new jackshaft and blower pulley. A new crank pulley to top it off.

I would really prefer to see aluminum pullies be hard anodized, at least on the wear surfaces.

I wouldn't want a cogged setup for every day driving, but I would like it for the track and for shows.

Kevin Leitem
10-24-2006, 10:18 PM
thanks guys for the interest, hopefully charles will help us out. keep the request comming

pro street rich
10-25-2006, 12:13 AM
thanks guys for the interest, hopefully charles will help us out. keep the request comming

Kevin, as was pointed out at the top of this, we looked into this a couple of years ago. The homework was already done, but no one was willing to step up for the price.
Now as for the noise, this is something that can be made to go away. There is an old "street rod trick" for that. When it gets ready to be done I will pass that one on to you....Feel free to pick my brain on this if you want.....Rich

Jim Demmitt Jr
10-25-2006, 12:18 AM
I run Cogged Pullies

Mine was made by CMRE at a cost of $1500.00 with special rachet tensioner pullies with special high speed berrings trick setup. (Note) they are not real streetable Cogged Pullies are hard on the blower the tensioner dont have no spring give like the stock type.Thus putting a load on the snout as the aluminum heads grow. You have to treat it like a blown race car I am building a blower support for the snout to help this problem. I hope Charles build's a Cogged setup but it wont be real cheap to do. If you can sell a setup less than $900.00 I will be surprized there is a lot in them that meets the eye my new ones will be at 35% overdrive

Jim Demmitt Jr
10-25-2006, 12:23 AM
Kevin, as was pointed out at the top of this, we looked into this a couple of years ago. The homework was already done, but no one was willing to step up for the price.
Now as for the noise, this is something that can be made to go away. There is an old "street rod trick" for that. When it gets ready to be done I will pass that one on to you....Feel free to pick my brain on this if you want.....Rich


Cogged noise

They make very little whine the Cogged belt's and pullies are so small on a little V6 compared to a Blown V8 big differaince no worrie there

David Neibert
10-25-2006, 12:33 AM
I just bought a Mori Seiki NL2500YMC lathe with milling capability but will not recieve until the end of Decemeber. I am interested in making a cog pullies if you can wait until the first of 07. It would have to be a group buy of at least ten sets (jack shaft and SC pully). The jack shaft pully could also have the 8th rib added for those with a 8 rib crank pully.

We could also design in the quick change capability.

Mike

Mike,

Mori Seiki is the fo shizzel my nizzel of lathes....nice pick.

David

Super XR7
10-25-2006, 06:21 AM
Mike,

Mori Seiki is the fo shizzel my nizzel of lathes....nice pick.

David

David, I couldn't agree more. I have several that are used exclusively on another project and I must say they set the bench mark for machine tools. This will be the first Mori for me with live tooling and a Y axis. If no one picks up and does the cogged pullies, this would be a great machine to do them on.

Mike

Micahdogg
10-25-2006, 10:41 AM
Since we are just generally discussing cogged pullies, I could swear Coy commented that the belts don't last long. For some of the reasons Jim mentioned, there is no give (no spring loaded tensioner) and there is no slip. Seems like he was going through belts quickly. Not that they didn't work, but just a higher maintenance item.

Micah

Randy N Connie
10-25-2006, 12:09 PM
When I talked to Charles about hireing him to help cast a manfold/plenum.
We talked about cogged pullies during one of the calls. I ask if he would
build any. He called back around 3 weeks later. And stated he was just
then machining some pullies. His last machine step was cutting the belt groves.
And he would sell me a blank set of pullies,not groved.
And I would need to machine my own cogges in the pullies.

So this may be an way some can get cogged pullies. If you have a mill
and index table, give Charles a call. And next time he has a run on
machineing pullies. Maybe he will pull you a set of unfinish pullies and
sell them to you. With just the straight belt groves machined in just
half of the crankshaft pulley.

I needed a aluminum crank shaft pulley. I could not find a scrap peice
to buy with the diameter or thinkness needed to machine a crank pulley.
I have material for the smaller jackshaft and blower pullies,and machined.
So this is why I called Charles,crankshaft pulley, I could not afford to buy
a twenty foot peice of aluminum for one crankshaft pulley..

I had planned to use the stock type belt tentioners.

I posted a picture of one of my first blower cogged pulley I machined.
I think it was in pro-street Richs post on making cogged pullies a
couple years ago.

Thanks Randy

Kevin Leitem
10-25-2006, 05:08 PM
Kevin, as was pointed out at the top of this, we looked into this a couple of years ago. The homework was already done, but no one was willing to step up for the price.
Now as for the noise, this is something that can be made to go away. There is an old "street rod trick" for that. When it gets ready to be done I will pass that one on to you....Feel free to pick my brain on this if you want.....Rich

drill relief dimples to relieve air pressure?

Kevin Leitem
10-25-2006, 05:12 PM
I had planned to use the stock type belt tentioners.

Thanks Randy

thats how i figured it out also, i think keep everything the same, just change the ribs to cogs.

Super XR7
10-25-2006, 05:34 PM
When I talked to Charles about hireing him to help cast a manfold/plenum.
We talked about cogged pullies during one of the calls. I ask if he would
build any. He called back around 3 weeks later. And stated he was just
then machining some pullies. His last machine step was cutting the belt groves.
And he would sell me a blank set of pullies,not groved.
And I would need to machine my own cogges in the pullies.

So this may be an way some can get cogged pullies. If you have a mill
and index table, give Charles a call. And next time he has a run on
machineing pullies. Maybe he will pull you a set of unfinish pullies and
sell them to you. With just the straight belt groves machined in just
half of the crankshaft pulley.

I needed a aluminum crank shaft pulley. I could not find a scrap peice
to buy with the diameter or thinkness needed to machine a crank pulley.
I have material for the smaller jackshaft and blower pullies,and machined.
So this is why I called Charles,crankshaft pulley, I could not afford to buy
a twenty foot peice of aluminum for one crankshaft pulley..

I had planned to use the stock type belt tentioners.

I posted a picture of one of my first blower cogged pulley I machined.
I think it was in pro-street Richs post on making cogged pullies a
couple years ago.

Thanks Randy

Randy, try Ebay or a local metal scrap company for your aluminum stock for a crank pully. That is where I got a piece. Just be sure it is Tempered.

Mike

Jim Demmitt Jr
10-25-2006, 11:17 PM
Since we are just generally discussing cogged pullies, I could swear Coy commented that the belts don't last long. For some of the reasons Jim mentioned, there is no give (no spring loaded tensioner) and there is no slip. Seems like he was going through belts quickly. Not that they didn't work, but just a higher maintenance item.

Micah



Micah

Your right the belts are hard to get and are high priced I was getting 5 runs one a set of belts that Coy had we where getting but found more high speed Cogged belts now I get at least 15 hard runs on a set at $60 ea. You have to have tensioners stationary no movement mine are bullet steel with teeth to adjust with special made ideler pullies its a real neat deal. The belt teeth are half round this by far no street deal drag race only the main problem is the blower snout the load it has on it tryes to pull the rotors down in the case real hard on them this is why stock they use spring loaded tensioners

Jim Demmitt Jr
10-25-2006, 11:32 PM
thats how i figured it out also, i think keep everything the same, just change the ribs to cogs.



Kevin & Randy

You cant use stock type tensioners on a cogged belt setup Cogged like mine half round teeth you have to make tensioners that are stationary no movement any slack and it skipps shreads the teeth right off. And the ideler pullies have to have sides to hold the belt in place when you set the tension it cant be real tight cold when hot the heads intake expand thus making a real load on the belt and snout of the blower. My tensioners are bullet steel two pice with teeth between the halfs to make the smallest adjustements. I might pull them off take close up pictures to get some ideas for others. This solved my shredding belts back in 2003 but tell you from a user of this Cogged setup its not by far a street setup drag race only the blower's are not setup to handel the cogged load with no spring loaded tensioners like stock. I am fabing a snout support to help this area

Randy N Connie
10-26-2006, 05:46 PM
I think a properly engineered/machined pulley system with the proper
belt sizing. That it would be no propblems running cogged belt
blower drive system on the street or track..

I don't know why anyone with a daily driver would want this type
belt drive system.Why even bring it up. I have been going in the
direction of wanting to, & collecting the parts for a cog belt drive
for show/bling purposes.And later down the road for performance.

I just need a cogged crankshaft pulley, I can machine the jackshaft
and blower pullies. I have MPIII and a 1.6 A/R blowers,so I need
two different jackshaft pullies,one for the MPIII and a different
offset jackshaft pulley for the A/R blower. And the blower pullies
are different.

A little farther off subject.But I have two motors, one in my car 1990
SC Bird that is stock. The other motor I have been collecting and
making parts for, And plan to get together someday.I have been
giving a lot of thought to trying to put my modifided 3.8SC motor
in a rail car,Like a baby top-fuel car. I think I would do it if I could
get a rolling chassis for dirt cheap. I notice that NOPI has a class
for smaller motors that are in a rail chassis. I wonder what would be
the best drive system? Lock-up clutch or some sort of two speed
trans ?



Thanks Randy

Kevin Leitem
10-26-2006, 07:49 PM
randy, i also thought that a well machined system should have no ill effects, The centrifigal charged people have been running cogs for a while. i have heard of no ill effects of the cogs.

Mike8675309
10-26-2006, 08:59 PM
The main issue with stock use of cogged pullies is simply going to be a function of what happens if something takes a powder and throws a backfire into the mix or a bearing in the blower or jackshaft fail. Stock belts will slip. A cogged belt will rip the heck out of something.

XR7 Dave
10-26-2006, 09:22 PM
randy, i also thought that a well machined system should have no ill effects, The centrifigal charged people have been running cogs for a while. i have heard of no ill effects of the cogs.

It's all about the rpms. You can't reliably spin a cog belt at the speeds necessary for the MPIII. Centrifugal blowers do not spin anywhere near as fast. There is no way that a cog system will be practical for a dual purpose SC and since 99% of all SC's see dual purpose I think that a different solution will have to be thought of.

pro street rich
10-26-2006, 10:04 PM
When I last looked into this there were the guys that said it would not work. Some of those guys were already running a system on their cars. There are a few things to keep in mind about this system.
1] the pullies if they are made of a bigger size will help the belts last.
2] the tighter you bend the belt, the sooner it will break.
3] Harley has been using a cog belt for years, they last on that design.
4] If you backfire any engine, it could hurt parts.
5] Same goes for the bearing that stops working.
these are just a few reasons that some people don't want to see this system out there for everyone.... so what do you think???????????.........Rich

victor malvar
10-26-2006, 10:37 PM
There is a company in South Florida that has been making these for a few years. They also use the quick release set up. It is called South Florida Performance pulley. I think Charles knows him and so do I. I agree if something goes wrong such as a bearing or something freezes up it could do some damage to the system somewhere. It should not wear the belts to quick but a little quicker possibly. I have used a cogged belt set up before it worked well against slippage. Also It can tear up your rear needle bearings on the Supercharger prematurely. I can see benefit to cogged pulley (s) I have thought of doing this on my pulleys but after talking to a few people I decided against it at the time. I use a different set up that works pretty well overall. Cogged pulleys work good for the track and high torque engines but they can also have some draw backs. I think it depends on the individual ultimate goal and the needs of that particular individual (s).

XxSlowpokexX
11-06-2006, 06:42 PM
A cogged belt will fail if lets say the blower seizes well before anything else would..Cogged belts designed for that time of racing environment..high RPM do not last long on the streets...A few gun it and stop real quick can do wonders to a cog system.