Turbo cars

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Not only can turbo cars launch at the track against all opinions, they do so very well. In addition to this you will notice that it is a good thing this vehicle has SAFETY equipment. By the way, that is a 7 sec car, so while you may think he isn't going fast, he is MOVING when he lets go. Easily 100+mph lets thank god he wasn't further down the track doing 200mph when all this happened.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/Orlando/FastEd.wmv

http://content.godragracing.com/vids/orlando/2006/timbalflip.wmv

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I think its very important for people to understand what they want out of thier cars. A 12 sec street car can just as easily crash and burn as a 9 sec race car when not properly setup. Safety requirements are minimal from the factory. These videos attest to how a properly certified cage can protect the driver. How many of us will ever have one on a car we drive on the street?...Not many if any...How many will have a non certified cage or roll bar setup...A few more perhaps...How many nothing at all?..A majority of us

With factory cars in the 12's..11's..Heck a Ford GT ran in the 10's with good tires only....Its downright scary

EVen for the casual racer with a high powered street car you are always taking a risk everytime you run....For teh everyday street racer it may just be a matter of time. There is a reason NMRA, NHRA, IHRA ect ect all have safety provision rules...You never know when something like that can happen...And it does

[tim]

As my slow car get faster I think about this alot. I will be putting a S+W roll bar in my car with a saftey harness. My look silly in a 12 second car but in will look real good if the car is upside down.

[David Neibert]

I think its very important for people to understand what they want out of thier cars. A 12 sec street car can just as easily crash and burn as a 9 sec race car when not properly setup. Safety requirements are minimal from the factory. These videos attest to how a properly certified cage can protect the driver. How many of us will ever have one on a car we drive on the street?...Not many if any...How many will have a non certified cage or roll bar setup...A few more perhaps...How many nothing at all?..A majority of us

With factory cars in the 12's..11's..Heck a Ford GT ran in the 10's with good tires only....Its downright scary

EVen for the casual racer with a high powered street car you are always taking a risk everytime you run....For teh everyday street racer it may just be a matter of time. There is a reason NMRA, NHRA, IHRA ect ect all have safety provision rules...You never know when something like that can happen...And it does


Damon,

Recently I've been hearing a lot of chatter about it being very dangerous to drive a car equipped with a 6 point roll bar or a full cage when not wearing a helmet and a harness. Most of the issue has to do with the driver or the other occupants hitting their unprotected head against the bars during a collision/accident.

David

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

David very true thats why they make the roll bar padding..And a car with a bar is not made for back seat drivers..Also why they use harnesses with a rollbar and not factory seat belts

[David Neibert]

David very true thats why they make the roll bar padding..And a car with a bar is not made for back seat drivers..Also why they use harnesses with a rollbar and not factory seat belts

Damon,

From what I understand the padding is intended for softening the contact with a helmet, and will provide very little protection for a bare noggin.

Do you think it's safe to drive on the street while wearing a 5 point harness ? Do you also think it's safe to drive a car with a roll bar/cage and not wear a helmet ?

David

PS: I'm not trying to start an argument, just want to get all the info possible before deciding if a roll bar or cage makes sense in a street car.

[Miller]

nevermindddddd

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Actually David being you are asking me directly.

I would not drive a race car on the street (cage, harness, helmet)

I specifically mentioned one needs to know what they want out of their cars..Meaning (being I didnt explain myself) a race car or a street car.

Would I feel comfortable driving a car with a full certified cage and a harness on the street without a helmet..Yes I would..Because if I was impacted hard enough to actually rip free of my seat in order to bang my head on the cage..I'd be dead in a reg automobile without a doubt. Also ther eis a huge difference between roll bar and cage.....Again if I were to get into an accident in which I somehow broke free from my seat/harnes setup and slammed my head into the hoop of a rollbar I would certainly be dead in a non bared automobile.

Judgement comes into play here....Should one be even driving a 500 plus rwhp car on the street..The real answer is probably not..

Having many street cars with that power level I can say I have...With skinnies mind you..Smart no...But I can admit it isnt a smart thing to do :O)

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

One more thing.....You should see the padding I had used on the cage in my street driven caged and tubbed mustang back in the day..I hated crawling out of that jungle jim and banging my head every time;O)..But you know..It wasnt a race car....

[Ira R.]

The helmet is worn to protect your head. The harness keeps you from being thrown around. The cage is installed to keep the car from crushing in on you. Although mutually beneficial, no one item is meant to replace another. In fact, they rely on each other to provide as much driver safety as possible.

There is little point to using one without the others. Yes, I know that anything can happen and you may be more vulnerable at 50 mph with all the idiots on the roads today, but we're not talking about things that might happen going to the supermarket here.

Generally, we all know you are pretty safe just driving around town, regardless of what engine you have. If we are splitting hairs though, then if your car is that fast, you need everything.

Ira

Sorry, I see that while I was typing this the direction of the conversation changed. Oh well........

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

And of course...Going to the track and doing a full out run with no safety equipment is not driving normal.

And again..I have done that as well. Like the saying says...Dont do the crime..If you arnt willing to do the time..

In this case...Is the risk greater then the reward? Odds are youll be ok...But it can happen.......My cougar has no cage...No bar.....No nothing.....

[CarlisleLandOwn]

22 sec before anyone got to the car … empty handed
42 sec before he got OUT of the car … specially built for quick exits
50+ sec the ambulance wasn't there yet … where is the fire truck?

Do you need safety equipment in a properly built chassis? Nope, but I bet your going to WANT safety equipment if you value your life. By the way, did anyone else notice the fire suppression system going off? What about the fire suit he is wearing? Talk of cages is fine; Ira is 100% correct cages are only PART of safety equipment.

And yes, I believe that a harness is safer to drive around on the street then a 3 point belt. It spreads load across a wider portion of your body making the "blow" less harmful. AKA you’re not going to break ribs/collar bone, submarine, or generally flap around in the car. Remember, proper restraint devices have shown that the human body can survive higher G force crashes then ever though before ... roughly double what we though was previously a MAXIMUM.

So, him crashing before the 1/8 mile and a 12 sec or 11 sec or 10 sec car crashing at the top end of the track is fairly similar. Only difference is he walked away from the accident because he had the proper safety equipment. Just something to think about the next time you brag about going to the track and getting kicked out OR complain about getting kicked out. The rules are there for a reason. And if you drive at high speeds on the street imagine what it’s like when you don’t have a load absorbing rail, properly contoured walls, and grass with the proper grade to it. Exactly how long does it take the ambulance and fire truck to get to you on the street? I’m guessing a lot longer then 60 sec, and I’m certain most street cars have nice interiors made of some synthetic fiber SOMEWHERE in them that drips, sticks, and burns through you … plastic dashes, headliners, door panels … safety is what you make of it.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Oh, and to all the people that say roll bars aren't safe in a street driven vehicle I have one word for you ... Jeep

[Dahoopd]

Oh, and to all the people that say roll bars aren't safe in a street driven vehicle I have one word for you ... Jeep

Your not comparing apples, you picked a poor example if you ask me. Unless you mean bumping your head getting in and out. The jeep falls into the SUV category and they all have a higher risk rate for rollover because of shorter wheel base and higher center of gravity. The jeep was given a roll bar because it doesnt have a steel roof and pillars or doors. Its there for a tip over, not rollover. A four point roll bar? Flip a jeep and an SC at 50 mph hour and see what the outcome is. I bet the SC driver has a better survival rate.

[Kevin Leitem]

Damon,

Recently I've been hearing a lot of chatter about it being very dangerous to drive a car equipped with a 6 point roll bar or a full cage when not wearing a helmet and a harness. Most of the issue has to do with the driver or the other occupants hitting their unprotected head against the bars during a collision/accident.

David

a full cage is alot more dangerous on the street. a 6 point bar is pretty safe. and with use of seat belts the 6 point is real safe.

[David Neibert]

22 sec before anyone got to the car … empty handed
42 sec before he got OUT of the car … specially built for quick exits
50+ sec the ambulance wasn't there yet … where is the fire truck?

Do you need safety equipment in a properly built chassis? Nope, but I bet your going to WANT safety equipment if you value your life. By the way, did anyone else notice the fire suppression system going off? What about the fire suit he is wearing? Talk of cages is fine; Ira is 100% correct cages are only PART of safety equipment.

And yes, I believe that a harness is safer to drive around on the street then a 3 point belt. It spreads load across a wider portion of your body making the "blow" less harmful. AKA you’re not going to break ribs/collar bone, submarine, or generally flap around in the car. Remember, proper restraint devices have shown that the human body can survive higher G force crashes then ever though before ... roughly double what we though was previously a MAXIMUM.

So, him crashing before the 1/8 mile and a 12 sec or 11 sec or 10 sec car crashing at the top end of the track is fairly similar. Only difference is he walked away from the accident because he had the proper safety equipment. Just something to think about the next time you brag about going to the track and getting kicked out OR complain about getting kicked out. The rules are there for a reason. And if you drive at high speeds on the street imagine what it’s like when you don’t have a load absorbing rail, properly contoured walls, and grass with the proper grade to it. Exactly how long does it take the ambulance and fire truck to get to you on the street? I’m guessing a lot longer then 60 sec, and I’m certain most street cars have nice interiors made of some synthetic fiber SOMEWHERE in them that drips, sticks, and burns through you … plastic dashes, headliners, door panels … safety is what you make of it.

Jason,

I understand the dangers of wrecking the car at the track and how the proper safety equipment can make the differince between walking away and being carried away in a bag.

What I'm asking about is the dangers associated with improper use of the safety equipment and if it's safe to drive around with that stuff on the street.

Do you really think people are going to wear a fully cinched down 5 point harness while driving their 11 second car to the office ? Would they even be able to drive correctly if they did ? Things like shoulder checks before changing lanes or turning around to back out of a parking space would be very difficult if not impossible.

Even if you wanted to wear a helment in the car, most states have laws against anyone wearing anything that covers their ears while operating an automobile. Again...I'm not arguing against the use of a rollbar, harness or helmet on the track, just questioning how much sense it makes for street use.

David

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Another thing to mention. The addition of things such as subframes, bars and bracing and roll bars affect the crumpling effect disigned into a vehicle. In other words the dampning affect of the crumpling action is inhibited and teh car no longer functions as designed.

A hit with a car having a cage is alot harder then one without

[XR7 Dave]

A properly designed 5 point or 6 point NHRA roll bar can be downright dangerous on the street. Chris Wise was driving his low 11 second SC on the street when it was rear ended and totalled. Had the car had a properly designed NHRA legal roll bar he would have most likely been killed. An NHRA rollbar is supposed to prevent the head from whipping backward and resulting in whiplash. Think about that one.

You also have to think for a moment what types of crashes are likely to occurr on the drag strip. I don't have statistics, but most likely, the vast majority crashes occur from loss of traction and the resulting terrible handling characteristics of most drag cars. If you were to stack up all the wrecks that occurred on real street tires (drag radials) on cars slower than 9.99 I think you would find a very small number.

As some people have started to point out, safety is part of an overall program and not the result of one part or another. Running tires that are not safe on the street on a street car is risky. That's pretty much a no-brainer.

So IMO if you have an ultra fast street car, you might want to think about keeping it on street tires. I've had my SC sideways at 80mph before and it was no big deal. Putting a car sideways at 80mph with skinnies and slicks is a whole different story.

And yes, Jeeps are dangerous on the street too. My sisters both got very serious concusions from hitting the roll bar in a Jeep CJ just going over some moderate bumps. Both girls were launched straight into the roll bar, all it takes is the right momentum and bump frequency and it's all over.

I still think drag racing in a fast street car is a lot less dangerous than using the same car on the street. What I mean is making a car fast is inherently dangerous and that taking the car to a drag strip isn't creating any additional danger.

[Kevin Leitem]

i really don't care when i see fast cars on the track without roll bars/cages. if they wreck they will only harm themselves. I don't like seeing cars on the track that don't have safety equipment that can cause dangers to the guy in the other lane. example: drive shaft safety loop, extended wheel studs, better axles, I am going to a solid axle for one main reason, Safety. last week when i pulled the 1.47 60' and the front tires where off the ground.(i have video proof) I really don't want to break an axle at that moment. i know i will get negative remarks about mine not being a real street sc because of it. but i would rather be safe. I still think a properly installed bar is safe. Mine is about 6 inches behind the head and is tight to the roof. with a high back seat. with belts on i can not see how the head could ever come close. If you want to play on the street with a fast car, i say put the 6 point in, keep it as far behind the head as possible NHRA says maximum 6" behind head in normal driving seating, keep it tight to roof and install sfi approved padding. Get a good high back seat with provisions for a 5 point harness and wear it on the street. just my opinion!

[CarlisleLandOwn]

i really don't care when i see fast cars on the track without roll bars/cages. if they wreck they will only harm themselves. I don't like seeing cars on the track that don't have safety equipment that can cause dangers to the guy in the other lane. example: drive shaft safety loop, extended wheel studs, better axles, I am going to a solid axle for one main reason, Safety. last week when i pulled the 1.47 60' and the front tires where off the ground.(i have video proof) I really don't want to break an axle at that moment. i know i will get negative remarks about mine not being a real street sc because of it. but i would rather be safe. I still think a properly installed bar is safe. Mine is about 6 inches behind the head and is tight to the roof. with a high back seat. with belts on i can not see how the head could ever come close. If you want to play on the street with a fast car, i say put the 6 point in, keep it as far behind the head as possible NHRA says maximum 6" behind head in normal driving seating, keep it tight to roof and install sfi approved padding. Get a good high back seat with provisions for a 5 point harness and wear it on the street. just my opinion!


Someone that actually understands ... wow. Kevin is 100% correct. As for Dave and Dave, its actually scary that you guys BELIEVE what you are preaching. You guys need to talk to a good chassis builder, and sit in a properly built car. You have been brainwashed by junk and hocus pocus. Yes, junk and hocus pocuse goes fast too ... but as I have said in the past, there is a way that "works" and a way "that is right". I think everyone would agree that a safe cage is better then no cage. Also a safe cage on the street is VERY possible, so what is the problem? As far as not being able to drive on the street in a harness, again, you guys really need to experience a well built car before you start throwing around this gospel that you are preaching.

Dave D still think turbo cars don't launch? Or are you just hanging around junk? :eek:

[91supacoop]

If you want to play on the street with a fast car, i say put the 6 point in, keep it as far behind the head as possible NHRA says maximum 6" behind head in normal driving seating, keep it tight to roof and install sfi approved padding. Get a good high back seat with provisions for a 5 point harness and wear it on the street.

this seems like the best option. I will be doing something like this in my bird.

[CMac89]

On all of my cars I have the seat set lower so it keeps my head away from the upper halo part of the cage. This is just a prevention method that I use while building the cars because I don't want my head banging anything at all. Yes the helmet will save you, but how much better do you think you will feel when your head doesn't hit anything after a wreck? Wearing the correct harness should keep you away from the door bars.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Just your average everyday 2,500hp street car that we are building. Notice the cage, how it is safe, and out of the way.

http://www.racersden.net/gallery/d/716-1/DSC01309.JPG

http://www.racersden.net/gallery/d/718-1/DSC01310.JPG

http://www.racersden.net/gallery/d/720-1/DSC01311.JPG

http://www.racersden.net/gallery/d/730-1/DSC01302.JPG

http://www.racersden.net/gallery/d/740-1/DSC01307.JPG

The car is much further along then the pics I have, I'll try and snap some fresh ones with most of the interior in the car.

[XR7 Dave]

Kevin is 100% correct. I'm sure Kevin appreciates your 100% endorsement, however he is not 100% correct. NHRA states that the bar is to be designed to prevent whiplash. High and tight against the roof doesn't do that. Please explain if you can.

As for Dave and Dave, its actually scary that you guys BELIEVE what you are preaching.
First of all David and "I" are not preaching anything. Do us both a courtesy and address us individually. What David has to say is in no way related to what I have to say.

You have been brainwashed by junk and hocus pocus. Yes, junk and hocus pocuse goes fast too ... Instead of resorting to childish insults, why not first comment about what causes most drag racing accidents? Is that because it would require you to actually do some research instead of just waste your employers time and money bashing people on SCCOA?

I think everyone would agree that a safe cage is better then no cage. Also a safe cage on the street is VERY possible, so what is the problem? You are using very loose terms to try to turn an argument in your favor. Adding any kind of "roll cage" to a street car "safely" requires a whole range of design and engineering considerations. Why not go preach to all the 10 second street Mustang or Honda guys about safety. You'd have a much bigger and much more receptive audience.

I find it really funny how a guy who likes to brag about his street racing escapades and all the stupid stuff that he does is suddenly Mother Tereasa looking out for the well being of us poor hapless and deluded SC owners.

As far as not being able to drive on the street in a harness, again, you guys really need to experience a well built car before you start throwing around this gospel that you are preaching. Since when is one person's opinion or comments considered gospel and preaching??? Or is that you look up to us so much that you consider us prophets of God? Or is it that you are frustrated that even with all your knowledge and experience no one values your opinions? :eek: Personally I think it's the latter. :cool:

Dave D still think turbo cars don't launch? Or are you just hanging around junk? :eek: You have no idea what I think and I'm not about to confide in you. Yes, I hang around junk. Junk that the rest of the performance world forgot (SC's, for the special ones who don't catch on very quickly *cough*Jason King*cough*).


I love you too Jason, in a special non-homosexual kind of way. You are my hero and secretly I worship everything you have ever said. What would I do without you? :Love and Smoochies for you today!!:

[CarlisleLandOwn]

I'm sure Kevin appreciates your 100% endorsement, however he is not 100% correct. NHRA states that the bar is to be designed to prevent whiplash. High and tight against the roof doesn't do that. Please explain if you can.


First of all David and "I" are not preaching anything. Do us both a courtesy and address us individually. What David has to say is in no way related to what I have to say.

Instead of resorting to childish insults, why not first comment about what causes most drag racing accidents? Is that because it would require you to actually do some research instead of just waste your employers time and money bashing people on SCCOA?

You are using very loose terms to try to turn an argument in your favor. Adding any kind of "roll cage" to a street car "safely" requires a whole range of design and engineering considerations. Why not go preach to all the 10 second street Mustang or Honda guys about safety. You'd have a much bigger and much more receptive audience.

I find it really funny how a guy who likes to brag about his street racing escapades and all the stupid stuff that he does is suddenly Mother Tereasa looking out for the well being of us poor hapless and deluded SC owners.

Since when is one person's opinion or comments considered gospel and preaching??? Or is that you look up to us so much that you consider us prophets of God? Or is it that you are frustrated that even with all your knowledge and experience no one values your opinions? :eek: Personally I think it's the latter. :cool:

You have no idea what I think and I'm not about to confide in you. Yes, I hang around junk. Junk that the rest of the performance world forgot (SC's, for the special ones who don't catch on very quickly *cough*Jason King*cough*).


I love you too Jason, in a special non-homosexual kind of way. You are my hero and secretly I worship everything you have ever said. What would I do without you? :Love and Smoochies for you today!!:


Quoted for posterity, and for me to edit later and reply to ...

[Dahoopd]

Quoted for posterity, and for me to edit later and reply to ...

OUCH! Awww, thats gonna leave a mark!

[91supacoop]

i just feel that a 6pt bar will help in the unlikely event of a roll over, that is why i think what kevin said makes perfect sence, in that configuaration it would prevent the roof directly over your head from being crushed. As for the primary function being to prevent whiplash...i have no input on that.

Modern cars are designed to prolong an impact. By prolonging the decceleration time your body is protected from even greater shock than there would be otherwise. Headon collisions, or running headlong into a tree (who does that??) with a car that has a full cage can very well be much more dangerous than doing it without a cage. Cages are all well and good on the track because those types of collision just don't happen. As can be seen in that video, you're going to hit a flexible guardrail deisgned to absorb and prolong the impact. A full cage does not seem like a good idea for something that will be a daily driver IMHO.

Attached is a quick little chart just showing the time it takes for total decel Vs. the effective force felt by a 1000kg car with an initial velocity of 32MPH. Obviously prolonging the decel. in an accident out to 100 or 200 seconds is just absurd, but the main point to get from this is that with an exponential function like this one the most change occurs when the decel time is prolonged even by only a little bit.

[Kevin Leitem]

dave, i am actually going off the IHRA book, since all tracks around here are IHRA. but they want the bar a minimum 3 inches above the helmet. and no more than 6 inches behind the helmet. hence the name "roll bar" to prevent chrushing in a roll over, a good seat will prevent whiplash. I do believe NHRA is the same on bar/cage rules. i read the book over and over and nowhere did i find anything about the bar and whiplash.

[David Neibert]

Jason,

For a car making 2500 HP, the cage should look more like this 25.2 cage.

http://members.nuvox.net/~nosstang/Brandon/rollcage/PICT0072.JPG

I'm not preaching or brainwashed or driving junk...I'm just asking a few questions that are on topic and relevant to this post. I even explained my resoning for asking them. Please save the insults an accusations for someone else.

David

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Jason,

For a car making 2500 HP, the cage should look more like this 25.2 cage.

http://members.nuvox.net/~nosstang/Brandon/rollcage/PICT0072.JPG

I'm not preaching or brainwashed or driving junk...I'm just asking a few questions that are on topic and relevant to this post. I even explained my resoning for asking them. Please save the insults an accusations for someone else.

David


I think you need to take a good look at the pictures again, AND realise its a street car. Take a glance at the frame ... thats not a unibody car, and thats not a stock frame.:D

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Children.....Behave

[XR7 Dave]

As for the primary function being to prevent whiplash...i have no input on that. I never said it was the primary function. I was reading the NHRA rules last night and they state specifically more than once that a properly designed roll bar should prevent whip lash. That's all. If we are going to use the roll bar to prevent whip lash, then we have to think about how your head is going to deal with that. That's all I was saying.
Modern cars are designed to prolong an impact. By prolonging the decceleration time your body is protected from even greater shock than there would be otherwise. Headon collisions, or running headlong into a tree (who does that??) with a car that has a full cage can very well be much more dangerous than doing it without a cage. Cages are all well and good on the track because those types of collision just don't happen. As can be seen in that video, you're going to hit a flexible guardrail deisgned to absorb and prolong the impact. A full cage does not seem like a good idea for something that will be a daily driver IMHO.

Attached is a quick little chart just showing the time it takes for total decel Vs. the effective force felt by a body. As you can see, the most change occurs when the decel time is prolonged, even by only a little bit.

I never "preached" anything about cages or roll bars vs. safety. I have attempted to bring up concerns that should be addressed before slapping a roll bar into your car. I *believe* this is also the approach that David Neibert is coming from as well.

There are several kits available for roll bars in an SC and it should be seriously considered how the safety of such kits will affect daily driveability of the cars. Personally, I feel that the SC is a fairly safe vehicle to be in if you are going to crash. The fact that those cars in those video's and pictures entirely discintgrated other than the cage is partially a testament to the integrity of the cage but also a large statement about the fragile nature of everything else on a race car.

When people remove bumper padding and other items in the name of weight reduction they must also remember that they are altering the safety factors that were designed into the car in the first place. There is sometimes a fine line between when a car is a street car and when it becomes a race car.

I also very much feel that CLO is way overdramatizing the "danger" of running an SC at 10.xx seconds. Perhaps he has forgotten just how stable and docile the cars are at speed. There is no comparison between an SC (with OE type tires and suspension) and even a Fox body Mustang in terms of stability. A 13 second Honda Civic is more dangerous than an 11 second SC for that reason alone.

[David Neibert]

I think you need to take a good look at the pictures again, AND realise its a street car. Take a glance at the frame ... thats not a unibody car, and thats not a stock frame.:D

Oh...I think I understand now. It's not NHRA or IHRA legal for the ET and MPH the car is capable of running on the track, it's just for the driver's safety in case something goes wrong while racing it on the street.



David

[XR7 Dave]

RUNNING 11.49 to 11.00
Driveline – All RWD cars running 11.49 or quicker on street tires must have a
driveshaft loop.
Driver restraint systems – A quick release, 3 inch shoulder harness meeting SFI 16.1
spec is mandatory in all cars in competition required by the rules to have a roll bar or roll
cage.
Roll Bars – 5-point NHRA-legal roll bar is mandatory in any car running 11.49 or
quicker.
Head protector – In any car where a roll bar or roll cage installed, a padded head
protector must be provided at the back of the drivers head and construction in an
attempt to prevent whiplash upon impact.
Protective clothing – Jacket meeting SFI 3.2A/1 spec mandatory
RUNNING 10.99 to 10.00
Roll Cage/Roll Bar – NHRA legal roll bar is mandatory in all cars without a factory
firewall. Roll bar is permitted in vehicles with factory firewall.
Head protector – In any car where a roll bar or roll cage installed, a padded head
protector must be provided at the back of the drivers head and construction in an
attempt to prevent whiplash upon impact.
Window net – A SFI 27.1 spec, mesh-type window net is mandatory on any car
required by the rules to have a roll cage.
Transmission, automatic – All vehicles running an automatic transmission must be
equipped with a transmission shield meeting SFI 4.1 spec.
Harmonic Balancer –harmonic balancer meeting SFI 18.1 spec mandatory.
Aftermarket Axles / Axle Retention Device – All RWD cars must be equipped with
aftermarket axles and a satisfactory means of drive axle retention: minimum .120 inch

Sorry, read it wrong. Must have "Padded head protector" to prevent whip lash. So, if you have a roll bar, you need to have something to prevent whip lash. From this it seems a stock seat with headrest or aftermarket race seat would be sufficient.

[XR7 Dave]

Oh...I think I understand now. It's not NHRA or IHRA legal for the ET and MPH the car is capable of running on the track, it's just for the driver's safety in case something goes wrong while racing it on the street.



David

I think he was referring to his own pictures which show the roll bar/cage contoured around the doors for easy ingress/egress as opposed to the one you showed with a full wrap around cage.

It's hard to tell what car he's actually referring to.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

I never said it was the primary function. I was reading the NHRA rules last night and they state specifically more than once that a properly designed roll bar should prevent whip lash. That's all. If we are going to use the roll bar to prevent whip lash, then we have to think about how your head is going to deal with that. That's all I was saying.


I never "preached" anything about cages or roll bars vs. safety. I have attempted to bring up concerns that should be addressed before slapping a roll bar into your car. I *believe* this is also the approach that David Neibert is coming from as well.

There are several kits available for roll bars in an SC and it should be seriously considered how the safety of such kits will affect daily driveability of the cars. Personally, I feel that the SC is a fairly safe vehicle to be in if you are going to crash. The fact that those cars in those video's and pictures entirely discintgrated other than the cage is partially a testament to the integrity of the cage but also a large statement about the fragile nature of everything else on a race car.

When people remove bumper padding and other items in the name of weight reduction they must also remember that they are altering the safety factors that were designed into the car in the first place. There is sometimes a fine line between when a car is a street car and when it becomes a race car.

I also very much feel that CLO is way overdramatizing the "danger" of running an SC at 10.xx seconds. Perhaps he has forgotten just how stable and docile the cars are at speed. There is no comparison between an SC (with OE type tires and suspension) and even a Fox body Mustang in terms of stability. A 13 second Honda Civic is more dangerous than an 11 second SC for that reason alone.

Man, noting will EVER go wrong with a MN12 going down a track ... they should be racing these things rather then every other chassis out there, NOTHING WILL EVER GO WRONG ... huh ... and I suppose the IHRA and NHRA are over dramatizing their rules.:confused:



Oh...I think I understand now. It's not NHRA or IHRA legal for the ET and MPH the car is capable of running on the track, it's just for the driver's safety in case something goes wrong while racing it on the street.



David

And you have a Turbo 347 with 1,000+hp potential that you said would hardly ever get out to the track and is a 100% pure street car because??:confused: And turning the car sideways, smoking tires when you come on boost etc that you post about isn't street racing how?:eek: Not that I'm judging, I'm sure you went turbo 347 for the fuel economy ... ;)

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

geessshh..

[XR7 Dave]

Man, noting will EVER go wrong with a MN12 going down a track ... they should be racing these things rather then every other chassis out there, NOTHING WILL EVER GO WRONG ... huh ... and I suppose the IHRA and NHRA are over dramatizing their rules.:confused:




Nope, I said *you* are overdramatizing things. Posting video's and pictures of 1000hp+ race cars on 33" slicks doing loopies isn't really all that relevant for a 10 second street SC. Instead of preaching that we all need to install roll cages in our cars, maybe you could offer some insight as to what would actually be beneficial to real world applications here.

If you really wanted to be helpful you might have talked David into not aiming for a HP figure that was unreasonable for a street car without a roll bar. Nope, didn't hear that argument from you back then. It's only now that you have made your committment NOT to help David out that you have come out with all this "wisdom". You obviously have no intention of helping David but rather you want to try to make him look foolish. Sad.

[442guy]

I like Pie!:eek:

I do not like cream filled horns!


Pickled pigs feet are nasty!


Pickles however are a tasty treat!


This thread is going the way of the pickled pigs foot.

Lets get back to the pie.
Yes that Turbo car sure launched hard.
Saftey equipment is good, but the addition of it to a street driven car is debatable (cages and roll bars).
Anytime you stiffen the frame or chassis you defeat some of the crumple zones designed into the cars to sofeten the blow and allow occupants to survive. the real weakness of the MN12 is the rear seat from side impact.
You could probably kill someone in that backseat getting hit buy a moped.
If you were not on the MN12 design team, I doubt that you could give an educated and informed opinion on what actual impact the cage will have on overall drivers safety from all types of likely accidents.
What may be helpfull in a rollover , could stiffen the car so thay a front impact would push the tranny/engine into the driver instead of crumpling out the bottom as designed.

And I did stay at a holdiay Inn Express last night,,,, really no ~~~~!

[Dahoopd]

I like Pie!:eek:

I do not like cream filled horns!


Pickled pigs feet are nasty!


Pickles however are a tasty treat!


This thread is going the way of the pickled pigs foot.

Lets get back to the pie.


And I did stay at a holdiay Inn Express last night,,,, really no ~~~~!

LMFAO! These arguements never go any where with CLO. Its only to get a rise out of you guys. Ya gotta be like 442guy and laugh.

[442guy]

life is short.....shorter if yur stoopid!

[David Neibert]

And you have a Turbo 347 with 1,000+hp potential that you said would hardly ever get out to the track and is a 100% pure street car because??:confused: And turning the car sideways, smoking tires when you come on boost etc that you post about isn't street racing how?:eek: Not that I'm judging, I'm sure you went turbo 347 for the fuel economy ... ;)

I have it for personal amusement, and to impress the guys at the local Jiffy Lube :rolleyes: .

No it's not street racing, mainly because I'm not racing anyone. 1000 HP just sounded like a nice round number, and I needed it to be well above the power potential of the 3.8 to convince my self it was a worthwhile project.

BTW, If you really wanted to put me on the spot, why didn't you ask something like "Why does a street car need a trans brake? "

David

[Pablo94SC]

Just my $.02, but I don't think a stock SC seat's headrest would provide good enough whiplash protection unless you sit completely upright. Even then, I think it's limited at best. I'd go ahead and get seats and a 5-point harness if I was at the 11.99 point. Surprisingly enough, some of those seats are really comfortable.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Nope, I said *you* are overdramatizing things. Posting video's and pictures of 1000hp+ race cars on 33" slicks doing loopies isn't really all that relevant for a 10 second street SC. Instead of preaching that we all need to install roll cages in our cars, maybe you could offer some insight as to what would actually be beneficial to real world applications here.

If you really wanted to be helpful you might have talked David into not aiming for a HP figure that was unreasonable for a street car without a roll bar. Nope, didn't hear that argument from you back then. It's only now that you have made your committment NOT to help David out that you have come out with all this "wisdom". You obviously have no intention of helping David but rather you want to try to make him look foolish. Sad.

sooo, a 10second street sc doing 129 mph at the traps and having a problem on the big end is nothing like a 1,000+ hp race car on 33" slicks capable of 200mph traps rolling before the 1/8 mile at around 100mph ... because like you said mn12's never have problems in the real world. Sounds like a case of it will never happen to me.

Didn't say this was for Dave, just said you shouldn't be preaching that roll cages are useless in street cars. If David doesn't want to put a roll cage in his cars and wants to get himself killed, fine, his problem, I said that EARLY on in this thread (see post #12) (http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showpost.php?p=579283&postcount=12) but saying a roll cage isn't nesicary in a street driven car that runs 11.49 and faster is one of the most retarded things I have ever seen you type (and believe me, you have typed some dumb stuff before). The NHRA and IHRA set up MINIMUMS for safety equipment ... minimums. Just because you don't value your own skin doesn't mean others don't value theirs, and they should have the unbiased information of "what if" not "it will never happen to me". Do I think an 11.49 car needs a 12 point cage? No, I never said that, I simply said that the proper safety equipment use is important, and that cages are only PART of a system of multiple pieces. I also said that a cage and street driving can and do go together. Now, who is dramatizing and who is speaking the truth? If the truth that I speak of is too dramatic for you, then I suggest a good diet of stock slow vehicles.

life is short.....shorter if yur stoopid!

I like this one.

[David Neibert]

The NHRA and IHRA set up MINIMUMS for safety equipment ... minimums. Just because you don't value your own skin doesn't mean others don't value theirs, and they should have the unbiased information of "what if" not "it will never happen to me". Do I think an 11.49 car needs a 12 point cage? No, I never said that, I simply said that the proper safety equipment use is important, and that cages are only PART of a system of multiple pieces. I also said that a cage and street driving can and do go together.

And yet you post pictures of a cage your shop is building that doesn't meet those same NHRA and IHRA minimum standards for proper safety equipment.

Sounds like a double standard.

David

[XR7 Dave]

sooo, a 10second street sc doing 129 mph at the traps and having a problem on the big end

Of course the car can have a problem at 129mph. So can a stock SC running 129mph. They DO go that fast. Does that mean that everyone needs to put a roll bar in their cars? Apparently so.

There is more in common with an SC running 129mph at the end of the 1/4 mile and a stock one running on the street than there is with an SC running 129mph in the 1/4 vs. a 1000hp+ car running 129 mph in the first 100 ft with tires like balloons and being on the verge of losing traction or picking up the front tires at all times. Sorry, your connection is very weak.

because like you said mn12's never have problems in the real world. Nice how everything is always interpreted in a way that supports your argument. Can we say INTERNET WARRIOR???? I didn't say that MN12's don't have problems. Please don't misquote me if you want your argument to hold water. I said that MN12's are inherantly stable and provide better than average protection in accident situations. These are facts that are backed up elsewhere in the REAL WORLD if you care to check.

Didn't say this was for Dave, just said you shouldn't be preaching that roll cages are useless in street cars.

Never said they were useless. I said they could be dangerous. Just like your reference to the Jeep, there are situations where a roll bar can be dangerous. People should be informed of all the safety aspects of a roll bar before slapping one in their street cars. Sorry if that doesn't agree with your argument.
saying a roll cage isn't nesicary in a street driven car that runs 11.49 and faster is one of the most retarded things I have ever seen you type (and believe me, you have typed some dumb stuff before). Thanks for the compliment. At least it proves what I suspected all along - that you closely follow my posts and that you read them. :D Too bad you have such short memory about what it is you read because this time, just like the last time you called me retarded, you have misquoted me and created an official "The World According to David Dalke" credo that doesn't exist.

Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?? So all GT's and Z06's require roll cages? I mean if you really think about it both are capable of 11 sec passes with the right tires and driver. Or are you saying that they require roll cages only when driven by people competent enough to actually accomplish an 11 second pass? Please do clarify if you will.

I also said that a cage and street driving can and do go together. Now, who is dramatizing and who is speaking the truth? If the truth that I speak of is too dramatic for you, then I suggest a good diet of stock slow vehicles.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll remember it and try to follow your advice.

Hold on. Didn't a wise man once say that there are 3 sides to a story? You know, your side, my side, and the truth? Hmmm, maybe he was an idiot too. Either that or you are some prize, having the exclusive right to declare what is true and what is false upon the rest of us.

Who would have guessed that I was such a great preacher. I never considered that as an occupation but here you say I'm preaching naturally without even knowing it. My my, I amaze myself. :D

[XR7 Dave]

Dave, I think you have more than most proven yourself with your car. Why even waste a breath explaining or even debating a subject with a knucklehead. It doesnt matter how much money you spent, who did the wrenching or if it was safe or sane getting there. You pulled off a 10.68 and thats the final word. Let the landowners and their be it fart can exhaust, race stickers, or stolen videos of someone elses car move on. Why would you let someone get you aroused when they dont belong to the club or have never proven themselves worthy.

David is not on trial here. No one is questioning Jason's qualifications either. Despite his arrogance and pointless attacks on the efforts of others he brings a certain balance to the SCCOA. You know, the kind that helps us appreciate things we often take for granted.

Anyway, as much as a pain Jason likes to be I have learned some stuff from him. Even though he despises that and the idea that he might have actually helped David Neibert, he has in fact done so in his round-about way.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Either that or you are some prize, having the exclusive right to declare what is true and what is false upon the rest of us.

I thought I would just point out that the above statement describes my role around here :O)

[Kevin Leitem]

actually late model fast cars do not need to follow the rule book, as long as they are fairly stock. no major engine mods. the NHRA and IHRA decided that with the airbags, and all the factory safety equipment, that they are safe without the added bar/cage.

[Kurt K]

Not that I really want to get involved, but I do know someone that got a ticket for driving around with a 5 point harness because it wasn't approved for street use.

[XR7 Dave]

actually late model fast cars do not need to follow the rule book, as long as they are fairly stock. no major engine mods. the NHRA and IHRA decided that with the airbags, and all the factory safety equipment, that they are safe without the added bar/cage.

So what you are alluding to, and what I have been saying all along, is that there IS a difference between an 89 Geo Metro with a turbo Buick V6 running 10's and and fairly sedate SC running 10's and a mostly showroom stock Viper running 10's. Everyone seems to be able to see that including NHRA. Granted SC's are not exempt from NHRA rules but the point remains that there are degrees of safety built into the design of the car that cannot be universally applied meaning that a 10 second SC just might be safer to ride in than a 10 second 69 Nova.

The fact that David's car ran a 10.xx time suddenly made it dangerous in what way? I seem to recall Mr. King calling my dyno numbers "inflated EGOjet" numbers before. Now when the car actually runs the numbers suddenly it's dangerous. The car was just as fast the first day we put the AR on it as it is now, it just took that long to get the timeslip. Jason should have been able to do the math and realize that the car was capable of 11.49 or quicker with the power it made 9 months ago (on pump gas, no nitrous). Where was all the safety advice then? Jason has come along trying to paint a picture of himself as our saviour protecting us from imminent doom but in reality if he really had anyone's best interests in mind he would have been "preaching" safety a long time ago.

A discussion on safety is a great idea but the trainwreck that this thread has become is more like pure entertainment at this point.

[CMac89]

Nobody is really wrong here. Putting a cage in a car that traps 130 mph is completely plausible for drag racing, but it doesn't mean that the car needs it just as a safety factor off of the track.

NHRA/IHRA make the rules to keep all racers as safe as they can. What you want to do off of the track is entirely up to you, but the rules are all for the better.

[Dahoopd]

(Removed by Admin.)

[XR7 Dave]

(Removed by Admin)

That wasn't nice.

Jason is an accomplished race car tuner. He is a teacher at EFI university where he teaches the pro's how to tune their race cars as well as people who run stand alone systems on the street.

He holds a university degree as well as other certifications, he has built many race cars and has tuned more high HP cars than I have probably even seen in real life.

He also works for or participates in the building of race and high performance cars at a reputable fabrication shop and directly assists more than one race team at the track in real life.

Jason used to own an SC and has owned at least one other car that was SC 3.8L powered and has been involved in working with members and their SC's in an ongoing basis for several years. He admits to have having corrected some of my mistakes as well.

Jason has attended many SC meets (primarily Carlisle) where I met him and even had the opportunity to bash him around some on the go-kart track whenever I wasn't running like hell from Dennis. There is no questioning his place in the SC community or his right to be here.

Jason also hold membership in Mensa which as you should know is a fellowship of people who's IQ seriously exceeds yours and mine. He's also a self proclaimed {edit} rude person {edit} and proud of it.

So as long as everybody realizes where he is coming from with his condescending attitude we really all should be ok with it. Variety, it's the spice of life. :D

[VicRattlehead]

my car will have at least a 6 pt roll bar. it will be installed by jeff at the link posted below.

as far as the 5pt harness goes, to be safe the shoulder harness needs to be attached level with the top of the shoulders. only way to do that is on the crossbar of the roll bar.

from dave d
Driver restraint systems – A quick release, 3 inch shoulder harness meeting SFI 16.1
spec is mandatory in all cars in competition required by the rules to have a roll bar

so not only does dave need the bar he needs the harness to go with it.


now here is the link to the guy doing my bar install. he just did 2 friends fox stangs, tony the green top one and dales grey one. tony's car will be a mid 10 sec car. it will see the street but about 75% of the time it will be a track car, nmra pure street, the original bar is a S&W 12 pt cage with some addons.
dales car hasnt run a 9 yet, but 10.0-10.1 is where its at, that thing wont see much if any street duty.

http://www.pakmanmotorsports.net/customers.html

http://www.pakmanmotorsports.net

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Nobody is really wrong here. Putting a cage in a car that traps 130 mph is completely plausible for drag racing, but it doesn't mean that the car needs it just as a safety factor off of the track.

NHRA/IHRA make the rules to keep all racers as safe as they can. What you want to do off of the track is entirely up to you, but the rules are all for the better.

I was going to go back and answer everything Dave brought up, but this is the true story here, its also exactly what I had posted here on the first page post count #12. (http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showpost.php?p=579283&postcount=12)

That wasn't nice.

Jason is an accomplished race car tuner. He is a teacher at EFI university where he teaches the pro's how to tune their race cars as well as people who run stand alone systems on the street.

He holds a university degree as well as other certifications, he has built many race cars and has tuned more high HP cars than I have probably even seen in real life.

He also works for or participates in the building of race and high performance cars at a reputable fabrication shop and directly assists more than one race team at the track in real life.

Jason used to own an SC and has owned at least one other car that was SC 3.8L powered and has been involved in working with members and their SC's in an ongoing basis for several years. He admits to have having corrected some of my mistakes as well.

Jason has attended many SC meets (primarily Carlisle) where I met him and even had the opportunity to bash him around some on the go-kart track whenever I wasn't running like hell from Dennis. There is no questioning his place in the SC community or his right to be here.

Jason also hold membership in Mensa which as you should know is a fellowship of people who's IQ seriously exceeds yours and mine. He's also a self proclaimed {edit} rude person {edit} and proud of it.

So as long as everybody realizes where he is coming from with his condescending attitude we really all should be ok with it. Variety, it's the spice of life. :D

100% True, can't say any of this is false Dave. I know I come accross as a rude person over the internet, but anyone that has met me in person (and you have Dave) knows I'm good people, I just leave all the plesantries and tip toe out of posting on the internet and stick with the info. Keep track of the info, and forget the plesantries as I have poor internet manners and probably will never change that.

I also want to add, that no one needs to worry, the Dave's and I are NOT at odds. As Dave D stated we have no problem taking laps on the go cart track together, drinking frosted barley pops, or simply shooting the bull, we simply don't agree on a lot of topics. Leave it at that, cars, not personal BS that doesn't need to be brought up. So all the PM's from un named people getting some sort of satisfaction on me "beating up" on the Daves, its not that at all, its just info.

[David Neibert]

Keep track of the info, and forget the plesantries as I have poor internet manners and probably will never change that.


Jason,

That's some funny stuff.....keeping track of the info, that is....please stop your killing me.

David

PS: I have no clue what Dave thinks you helped me with :rolleyes: .

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Jason,

That's some funny stuff.....keeping track of the info, that is....please stop your killing me.

David

PS: I have no clue what Dave thinks you helped me with :rolleyes: .

something something, pm asking about what a sequential, batch fire ... something something, Jerry something SCT something something low impedance injectors something factory ecu something not a good idea, something something now car runs. I have no idea either David, lets ask Dave?:rolleyes:

[David Neibert]

something something, pm asking about what a sequential, batch fire ... something something, Jerry something SCT something something low impedance injectors something factory ecu something not a good idea, something something now car runs. I have no idea either David, lets ask Dave?:rolleyes:

Jason,

I clearly recall you saying that you could have made my car run just fine with the factory ECU and an SCT chip. Prior to that you said the FAST XFI that I wanted to use as plan B and using now was GM based junk and you would only use Motec or Haltech. I ask some questions about how to spool the turbo quicker off the line, you say anti-lag device, I insist on more timing and a trans brake, then later you say anti-lag is really for race cars and can easily cause engine damage if not done just right.

See what I mean about keeping track of your info, it just keeps changing and changing:rolleyes:

David

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Jason,

I clearly recall you saying that you could have made my car run just fine with the factory ECU and an SCT chip. Prior to that you said the FAST XFI that I wanted to use as plan B and using now was GM based junk and you would only use Motec or Haltech. I ask some questions about how to spool the turbo quicker off the line, you say anti-lag device, I insist on more timing and a trans brake, then later you say anti-lag is really for race cars and can easily cause engine damage if not done just right.

See what I mean about keeping track of your info, it just keeps changing and changing:rolleyes:

David

ACTUALLY, this is WAY off topic, and if you would like to start your own thread about this subject or take it to PM's that would be best.

[David Neibert]

ACTUALLY, this is WAY off topic, and if you would like to start your own thread about this subject or take it to PM's that would be best.

Okay...lets talk more about the proper safety equipment for a 10 second track driven and an 11 second street driven SC.

David

[BikerSC]

Start a thread with no other reason than to get people fired up, and then claim that it is off topic and take it to PMs. (Edit by Admin)

-Steve

[David Neibert]

Really...I've read a ton of info about the NHRA safety rules, and the more I read the more confused I'm getting.

What I want to know, is what all would be required to make my over 4000# 93 SC NHRA legal at 136 mph. I know at that speed it's supposed to meet the same requirements of a car running 9.99. It seems the cage requirements vary with the weight of the car. I've also read some stuff about SFI bell housings, but the AOD I'm using does not have a removable bell housing. Window nets and axle retention are other areas of confusion. How do you retain the axles with IRS...is IRS even permitted ?

David

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

One thing that hasnt been mentioned (I keep saying that)..A high HP car will load the suspension and keep loading it way into the 1/8 mile mark. With an 11 sec sc or street car for that matter for the most part the suspension has settled at that point and by the 1/4 mark yoru pretty stable. Of course parts break and suspension may be set up improperly which can lead to a problem.

Personally I feel the most dangerous thing one can do is give a car power and not have the car to handle it. As with anything (I was a safety engineer for awhile)..You design something to not fail period under nomral to a certain level of extreme conditions...You also design in a safety factor for when you surpass the normal design criteria...(crumple zones, structural supports airbags for accidents)(strenght of mechanical parts for forces applied)

When modifying with more power you come closer or even exceed these safety factors...Things break,,twist..fall off...Loose control....

Some cars have more of a safety factor built into ther design..Newer cars are MUCH better then older ones..SO this safety factor built into the car for accidents lets say is much greater. The same can be said for other componants as well.(or not)

The problem comes when you modify a vehicle...Through trial and error we find out the breaking point of lets say mechanical items.....However how do we find out when we surpass the design criteria of lets say suspension components. When do they fail?...How much force can they deliver properly to the ground without becomming dangerous. When does the chasis itself become unstable..At what power level?

How does the addition of a rollbar, subframes struct bracing affect the original design intent of the vehicle. How does it affect its safety performance?..Who knows really......

So we can do all this crud to our cars...Not really knowing what we are doing in fact or if we are compramising the safety built into our vehicles.

As far as safety is concerned....

The only REAL proven engineered safety enhancement is a full certified cage. You are basically saying....Build me a new safety factor....And with this cage as has been mentioned, a harness MUST be used. The forces that will be applied to your body if you do indeed get into an accident with a fully caged car are MUCH greater then if you had no cage at all..No more crumple zones..None of that..But you will survive..And it will be MUCH SAFER when properly used(as a designed system) then lets say...No cage..

Soooo.....Any modifications you do to your car...subframes...new seats....a cage.... braceing.......You are on your own....

This is reality

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

David they gave scatter sheilds and tranny blankets to make up for the lack thereoff an SFI bellhousing...There was (may still be) limitation as to how fast with IRS you are allowed to go..I have seen vettes with axle loops.

If you want to be NHRA legal with a fast car 9.99 or quicker...It gets better and better

[VicRattlehead]

if i remember correctly 10.00 is the bottom you can go with irs. at 9.99 it becomes illegal.

[Randy N Connie]

Arent you suppose to have straps or a blanket on after market blowers?
Randy

[bowez]

Damon, so I guess you have never done any destructive lab testing. A simple torsion test will tell us at what force level our Half-shafts will fail, or can just look of the value for our respective diameter. As for finding the limits by trial and error that becuase we don't want to take the time or the money to go to a lab, or see if Ford (or someone else) will give us the info.

[CMac89]

Really...I've read a ton of info about the NHRA safety rules, and the more I read the more confused I'm getting.

What I want to know, is what all would be required to make my over 4000# 93 SC NHRA legal at 136 mph. I know at that speed it's supposed to meet the same requirements of a car running 9.99. It seems the cage requirements vary with the weight of the car. I've also read some stuff about SFI bell housings, but the AOD I'm using does not have a removable bell housing. Window nets and axle retention are other areas of confusion. How do you retain the axles with IRS...is IRS even permitted ?

David

Faster than 135mph you are to have a full 25.2 spec cage. Roll bar must be no farther than 6" back from the head and 3-5" max above. A window net is mandatory with a lower link providing a permanent attachment. Seat must be bolted to the cross bar from no farther than 4" from the top of the seat. I can give you tube size requirements, but I doubt you're interested in that.

In a car 9.99/ 135mph or quicker there is to have a flexplate shield along with an SFI approved flexplate. 10.99 or quicker you are to have a transmission shield following 4.1 spec. I've never been caught for not having a flexplate scatter shield and I've always run a stock flexplate in my race cars. I don't recommend that and I now have a scatter shield, but I still have a stock flywheel. It is the cast iron flexplates that are outlawed so I think that's why I'm never thrown out. I don't see why I would ask a tech official why I haven't been thrown out for running a stock flexplate:D .

This is the shield that I use: http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&Ntt=csi+transmission+shield&x=0&y=0&N=+115&searchinresults=false
They are nice because you don't have to buy two seperate shields. It is all as one unit and SFI approved.

As far as axle retention goes, all C-clip rear ends are prohibited. There must be bearing retainer plates being either .120" aluminum or .090" steel. They don't mention IRS in any rulebooks, but that's considering that everybody knows that isn't allowed. Not to mention they are all thinking "Who the hell would use IRS in a drag car anyways?" LOL

[David Neibert]

Casey,

Thanks for the info. I wonder how the Supras, Vettes and Vipers going over 135 are getting around the no IRS rule. I think I also need a full fire suit, and an NHRA license.

At what speed or ET is a fire suppresion system required ?

David

PS: Didn't see an AOD scatter sheild listed on that link...figures.

[CMac89]

You don't need a full fire suit until 8.50. I run 9.0's in my SuperStocker and all that is required is a helmet, fire jacket, and long pants.

Fire supression is required at 8.50 or 160mph and faster.

Checking a rear end setup involves getting on the ground and looking under the car. Since most tech officials are fat, lazy, and/or old then they won't look. Part of the reason why I never got thrown out for no flexplate scatter shield or SFI flexplate.

[83GT460]

Faster than 135mph you are to have a full 25.2 spec cage. Roll bar must be no farther than 6" back from the head and 3-5" max above. A window net is mandatory with a lower link providing a permanent attachment. Seat must be bolted to the cross bar from no farther than 4" from the top of the seat. I can give you tube size requirements, but I doubt you're interested in that.

In a car 9.99/ 135mph or quicker there is to have a flexplate shield along with an SFI approved flexplate. 10.99 or quicker you are to have a transmission shield following 4.1 spec. I've never been caught for not having a flexplate scatter shield and I've always run a stock flexplate in my race cars. I don't recommend that and I now have a scatter shield, but I still have a stock flywheel. It is the cast iron flexplates that are outlawed so I think that's why I'm never thrown out. I don't see why I would ask a tech official why I haven't been thrown out for running a stock flexplate:D .

This is the shield that I use: http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&Ntt=csi+transmission+shield&x=0&y=0&N=+115&searchinresults=false
They are nice because you don't have to buy two seperate shields. It is all as one unit and SFI approved.

As far as axle retention goes, all C-clip rear ends are prohibited. There must be bearing retainer plates being either .120" aluminum or .090" steel. They don't mention IRS in any rulebooks, but that's considering that everybody knows that isn't allowed. Not to mention they are all thinking "Who the hell would use IRS in a drag car anyways?" LOL

I don't have the latest NHRA rule book but the one I have from a couple of years ago does mention IRS rear ends, they state that you must have axle loops both inner and outer. There is also mention of different rules dependent on whether the car is set up with both upper and lower control arms.

Charles

[CMac89]

I may have missed out or read over IRS rules throughout the years. I really didn't see why they wouldn't mention anything. Since it comes in production cars it would be a general regulation.

I forgot to mention the driveshaft loops. A .250" thick steel, 360* loop has to be placed no farther than 6" from the FRONT U-Joint. If the front breaks with no loop then it jabs into the ground and your ~~~-end goes in the air. If it breaks off of the back then the driveshaft just drags.

[83GT460]

I may have missed out or read over IRS rules throughout the years. I really didn't see why they wouldn't mention anything. Since it comes in production cars it would be a general regulation.

I forgot to mention the driveshaft loops. A .250" thick steel, 360* loop has to be placed no farther than 6" from the FRONT U-Joint. If the front breaks with no loop then it jabs into the ground and your ~~~-end goes in the air. If it breaks off of the back then the driveshaft just drags.


I think front and rear loops for the driveshaft are a good idea on the T Bird because if your driveshaft breaks front or rear your pretty much screwed if you are still running the stock fuel tank.

Charles

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

The tbird has rather lame factory loops to prevent gas tank destruction....The IRS rule I remeber was with the loops as I mentioned..But there was a time limit...Mayeb it was 9.99 cuz thats when things happen..My buddy just put a 9 inch in his supra and that took care of that

And no I actually havnt gone to a lab and applied torsional loads to a halfshaft to see when and how it fails...1 because that is only 1 part of the system that can fail...2 because applying a torsional load would not nearly be enough to even guess at when breakage would occur due to torsional loading being only a part of the equation..And 3 because I dont care:O)..I'm one of those break it fix it guys..I may be an engineer but I just dont need to boggle my mind down with things that I dont want to or need to know..:cool:

[91supacoop]

i kinda agree with damon here. It would be very easy to find the torsional load that critical shear stress would be attained. and that would give us a good representation of the torsion would could place on our 1/2shafts. However there are so many element in the real world and at the track that just wouldn't allow us to judge exactly what power level that would occur at. The main things being engine launch RPM, how the driver chooses to engage the clutch, and even more unpredictable and IMO most influential, how well the tires grip off the line.

[CMac89]

i kinda agree with damon here. It would be very easy to find the torsional load that critical shear stress would be attained. and that would give us a good representation of the torsion would could place on our 1/2shafts. However there are so many element in the real world and at the track that just wouldn't allow us to judge exactly what power level that would occur at. The main things being engine launch RPM, how the driver chooses to engage the clutch, and even more unpredictable and IMO most influential, how well the tires grip off the line.

What you can find in durability and what NHRA accepts are two different things. Once they say your out they won't even allow you to argue. They just walk away.

[bowez]

i kinda agree with damon here. It would be very easy to find the torsional load that critical shear stress would be attained. and that would give us a good representation of the torsion would could place on our 1/2shafts. However there are so many element in the real world and at the track that just wouldn't allow us to judge exactly what power level that would occur at. The main things being engine launch RPM, how the driver chooses to engage the clutch, and even more unpredictable and IMO most influential, how well the tires grip off the line.

Thats when you do like any good eningeer and take assumptions (educated ones though). Though yes it is impossible to know at what point and instantous critical force would be applied but test would give a general range given tire size (since mu is basiclly constant) and torque. Clutch engangment well at best could assume speeds of an AOD, but thats when a torque curve comes very handy.

Damon, I totally respect your points espically 3, but as far as the IRS system goes we know the Diff is not an issue (least not the 8.8), the other items to most likely fail are the C-clips or spline fractures followed by the hub bareing.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I would definitely say the splined areas are weakest. If we could have a properly machined 31 splined peice it would be sweet. Most failures I hav eseen have been at the spline with evidence of twisting of the splined areas themselves..More splines stronger materials...

Being we as enthusiest dont have the time or money to do the research or what not...I always tend to go with something over engineered if I possably can...However...As we replace certain parts with stronger ones...The next in line i sbound to fail...And hopefully that failure will not be something that will affect the safety of the vehicle. Which is what this was about...I think

[CarlisleLandOwn]

I read through this post again, and noticed that there was a LOT of talk about changing how the crumple zone reacts. A NHRA or IHRA cage for 11.49/11.99 will not get into the crumple zones on a MN12. Remember, crumple zones are at the front and back of the car, NOT in the passenger compartment where a cage would be fitted. The passenger compartment is reinforced not to crush. The passenger compartment’s ability not to crush up is marginal at best on a factory car IMHO. This is not to say that the MN12 is not one of the safest cars in its class, it is, but nothing production oriented is without flaw or room for improvement.

http://members.nuvox.net/~nosstang/Brandon/rollcage/PICT0072.JPG

I’m sure something as extensive as this has more cage in front of the fire wall, and behind the backseat that closely resembles what can be seen in the picture. THIS type of cage will alter the crumple zone.

http://xtr2net.dnsalias.com/images/ae86/88.jpg

However, something like this does NOT get into the crumple zones yet is sufficient protection for a majority of the vehicles on this board. Please check rules/regulations of what your vehicle needs and talk with a chassis builder before you put an AE86 cage in your MN12. :D

[David Neibert]

Jason,

I can't see why anyone would install that jungle jim looking mess in a mid 11 second car, when all you need is a 5 point roll bar.

David

[CMac89]

If you're going to install a cage you might as well get with the idea in building next to a full cage so you can run faster times legally. The only bars added are ones that go along the A-Pillar and the front windshield cross bar.

Jason, why no main cross bar?

[BT Motorsports]

with all this talk about cages and street driven vehicles, I would like to hear some feedback on John Garner's 9 second street driven stang setup which is certified to 8.50:
http://www.superstang.com/cage.htm
http://www.superstang.com/Cage/Done/pass-rear2-800.jpg

Paul

[442guy]

Not bad if you dont mind breaking T 8-10 in a rear end collision. Not a fan of the steel bar behind the bendable buddy ford drivers seat.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I think he shoulda got a coupe..Thats what I think

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Jason,

I can't see why anyone would install that jungle jim looking mess in a mid 11 second car, when all you need is a 5 point roll bar.

David

That is a cage for an AE86, aka toyota rally car. As I said, you need to talk to a good chassis builder not depend on that picture. And honestly, I would rather have the added roll over protection.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Not bad if you dont mind breaking T 8-10 in a rear end collision. Not a fan of the steel bar behind the bendable buddy ford drivers seat.

That, and notice the harness is fastened below where his sholders would be located. Compression fractrues do hurt.

I think he shoulda got a coupe..Thats what I think

I was thinking the same thing lol

[XR7 Dave]

That, and notice the harness is fastened below where his sholders would be located. Compression fractrues do hurt.


Me, I just noticed the welding. :eek:

[David Neibert]

That is a cage for an AE86, aka toyota rally car. As I said, you need to talk to a good chassis builder not depend on that picture. And honestly, I would rather have the added roll over protection.

Jason,

The only reason I would put a roll bar or cage in one of my cars is so it would be legal to race on an NHRA track. After looking at what type of cage is required for my turbo car to run faster than 135, it's just not going to happen. It's not a race car....it's street car with a race car motor. I wouldn't even be able to drive it safely on the street with a 25.2 chassis. To be safe with that kind of cage, I would have to be strapped down with a 5 point harness and wear a helment everytime I pulled out of the driveway.

I don't need a cage for personal safety, because I'm not racing on the street. According to NHRA rules the 91 is only quick enough to need a roll bar if I use the nitrous and since I only use nitrous on the track, there is no need for a roll bar the other 99.9% of the time.

If these were cars that were raced on a regular basis and were always trailered to and from the track, it would make sense to do it. They aren't, so I'm not doing it.

David

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Me, I just noticed the welding.

and its certified....Yah I'd like to test those welds....

[CMac89]

Mild steel cages are the only ones that can be MIG welded. Chromoly cages can ONLY be TIG-Heliarc welded.

You should see the welds on my TA. They are nice nasty welds from Jeg's whenever they built the car in 1988. I don't see how it is approved either, but it is to 6.50. I just don't want to have the cage cut out and a new one put in for $15,000.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

As far as I know they dont test the welds..At least I have never seen them test welds..Perhaps they do..I can tell you though without proper welds the cage itself means nothing

[XR7 Dave]

As far as I know they dont test the welds..At least I have never seen them test welds..Perhaps they do..I can tell you though without proper welds the cage itself means nothing

I wouldn't say it means nothing, it could still smack you pretty hard on the noggin.

[CMac89]

The welds may look crappy, but they fully penetrate. MIG welds don't penetrate or hold Chromemoly well so you have to TIG weld them. They start to overlap the welds from side to side, but it's only visual. I was just saying it's hard to believe that they would allow that, but they DO testing to each NHRA certified shop that does the cages.

The cage works as one whole unit. If one bar or weld breaks than many go, not one alone.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

This guy doesnt build cages or is a shop..He did it as an individual with no mention of weld testing...

In my buissness you need to be a certified welder and go through a series of tests to assure you know what you are doing. I even have thier welds tested to confirm soundness. How can you tell if a weld fully penatrates if its not tested?...How do you know if it was welded to hot thus making the metal around the weld weaker then the weld itself....Was the metal properly preheated? Who knows?

Than again..You should see how I weld:O)

[bowez]

The welds may look crappy, but they fully penetrate. MIG welds don't penetrate or hold Chromemoly well so you have to TIG weld them.

With proper setup MIG will penetrate just as far as TIG, but since the Tungsten is not consumed the weld is cleaner, beyond that with a good welder (on that knows what he's doing and has experience) they are capable of doing the exact same metals/alloys.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Jason,

The only reason I would put a roll bar or cage in one of my cars is so it would be legal to race on an NHRA track. After looking at what type of cage is required for my turbo car to run faster than 135, it's just not going to happen. It's not a race car....it's street car with a race car motor. I wouldn't even be able to drive it safely on the street with a 25.2 chassis. To be safe with that kind of cage, I would have to be strapped down with a 5 point harness and wear a helment everytime I pulled out of the driveway.

I don't need a cage for personal safety, because I'm not racing on the street. According to NHRA rules the 91 is only quick enough to need a roll bar if I use the nitrous and since I only use nitrous on the track, there is no need for a roll bar the other 99.9% of the time.

If these were cars that were raced on a regular basis and were always trailered to and from the track, it would make sense to do it. They aren't, so I'm not doing it.

David


I totaly agree. Any time I get into a car that doesn't have front and side air bags I just don't wear a seat belt at all. :rolleyes:

Dave, as I said before, do what you want, but quit complaining that you have to find a new track.

[BikerSC]

I totaly agree. Any time I get into a car that doesn't have front and side air bags I just don't wear a seat belt at all. :rolleyes:

Dave, as I said before, do what you want, but quit complaining that you have to find a new track.

I think Dave is more proud that he has to find a new track. Quite acting like a two year old.

-Steve

[David Neibert]

I totaly agree. Any time I get into a car that doesn't have front and side air bags I just don't wear a seat belt at all. :rolleyes:

Dave, as I said before, do what you want, but quit complaining that you have to find a new track.

Jason,

You just don't seem to get it, so I'll spell it out one more time.

In order to race my turbo car at an NHRA track with MPH over 135, I will need a cage like this.

http://members.nuvox.net/~nosstang/Brandon/rollcage/PICT0072.JPG

If such a cage were to be installed in the car, it would no longer be safe for driving on the street unless wearing a helmet and being strapped in with the 5 point harness at all times. Even if I wanted to do it (I don't), wearing a helmet while driving a car on the street is against the law in MO.

It's not a race car....it's a street car.
David

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

It's not a race car....it's a street car.

Actually its probably illegal to be on the street anyways if we want to get technical.

And with that cage, a properly setup seat, a 5 point harness and no helmet you should be pretty dam safe..Because if you fly out your seat hard enough during an impact to hit your head on the cage....Youde be dead anyway

[442guy]

Actually its probably illegal to be on the street anyways if we want to get technical.



REALLY how so???

What particular laws is he violating?
Maybe emissions laws maybe not.Thats about all it looks like a normal car to me. Just faster!

[Micahdogg]

Plently of "street cars" that you can buy brand new with more power than David's (for now). As long as emissions are met, tires are DOT, etc...shouldn't matter about power. I'm sure he won't be driving 135mph on the street anyway...whereas any kid with no brains and a mildly modded ecobox can do 135 (and some probably do)

Micah

[David Neibert]

It passes MO safety inspection, and has a valid MO title, plates and insurance. There are exceptions and exclusions that have allowed me to get around the emissions testing. That will no longer be necessary, because before the current tags expire, emissions testing will no longer be required on anything older than 1996.

Unlike some states, I can not be ticketed for having go fast mods on the car.

David

[BikerSC]

According to the EPA any "engine switch" that is not a "certified configuration" is not legal. Certified configuration meaning, emissions, design parameters, calibrations. But who are we to care. All those JDM motors are a no no, poor ricers.

That can all be read here: EPA Engine Switching Fact Sheet (http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf)

-Steve

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

David et al...Youre all wrong if you agree that the car is even remotely street legal regardless of passing safety or emmisions tests or being exempt of them. When state law and federal laws clash you must always follow the more stringent of the two. If by chance you ever got into an accident with that car you would be fully made aware of the situation by the injured persons lawyer if they have even half a brain. We arnt even talking a factory modified motor at this point.

I'm not pullinghairs here because we all modify our cars..But you should at least understand the basics that the car is not LEGAL.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Also you can take any car and add an engine that was installed in that particular chasis from a later year so long as it retains all of the factory emmisions equipment for that year..

Great swap..79 stang with 03/04 cobra motor:O)

This is one of those things that if someone didnt like you and wanted to bust ya...They could make a call.

I used to work for the EPA BTW

There are ways to get around this..And it requires the setup to be put through a series of tests and be certified...

Who does that?..Not many!

[Micahdogg]

David et al...Youre all wrong if you agree that the car is even remotely street legal regardless of passing safety or emmisions tests or being exempt of them. When state law and federal laws clash you must always follow the more stringent of the two. If by chance you ever got into an accident with that car you would be fully made aware of the situation by the injured persons lawyer if they have even half a brain. We arnt even talking a factory modified motor at this point.

I'm not pullinghairs here because we all modify our cars..But you should at least understand the basics that the car is not LEGAL.

I, and I assume David too, don't really care about the semantics of terms like "street legal." I think the crux of the argument revolves around ticketable offenses. If you worried about how a lawyer could form a case against you after the fact, well...it's your sanity to lose.

Micah

[David Neibert]

David et al...Youre all wrong if you agree that the car is even remotely street legal regardless of passing safety or emmisions tests or being exempt of them. When state law and federal laws clash you must always follow the more stringent of the two. If by chance you ever got into an accident with that car you would be fully made aware of the situation by the injured persons lawyer if they have even half a brain. We arnt even talking a factory modified motor at this point.

I'm not pullinghairs here because we all modify our cars..But you should at least understand the basics that the car is not LEGAL.

Okay Damon....I'll agree it's not legal by federal law. It may even violate some state laws, and my insurance company would most certianly cancel the policy if they knew the extent of modifacations to the car.

So how does adding a cage and the other NHRA required safety equipment, make that situation any better or more legal for driving it on the street ?

David

[BikerSC]

Okay Damon....I'll agree it's not legal by federal law. It may even violate some state laws, and my insurance company would most certianly cancel the policy if they knew the extent of modifacations to the car.

So how does adding a cage and the other NHRA required safety equipment, make that situation any better or more legal for driving it on the street ?

David

It doesn't. So CLO needs to shutit. I don't know how someone can keep arguing, and arguing.

-Steve

[XR7 Dave]

Also you can take any car and add an engine that was installed in that particular chasis from a later year so long as it retains all of the factory emmisions equipment for that year..

Great swap..79 stang with 03/04 cobra motor:O)

This is one of those things that if someone didnt like you and wanted to bust ya...They could make a call.

I used to work for the EPA BTW

There are ways to get around this..And it requires the setup to be put through a series of tests and be certified...

Who does that?..Not many!

I don't follow. David's car did have a complete engine swap done from another Thunderbird and it was fully emmissions legal when completed. It was a bone stock 5.0L Tbird motor including the air box and exhaust system. What happened to it after that is no different than sending your Ford GT to Heffners for a turbo upgrade. Please do explain if I am missing something.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

So how does adding a cage and the other NHRA required safety equipment, make that situation any better or more legal for driving it on the street ?

Never said it does..If anything I have stated I wouldnt either being I drive my cars on the street without that equipment as well..However it would be safer

I don't follow. David's car did have a complete engine swap done from another Thunderbird and it was fully emmissions legal when completed. It was a bone stock 5.0L Tbird motor including the air box and exhaust system. What happened to it after that is no different than sending your Ford GT to Heffners for a turbo upgrade. Please do explain if I am missing something.

It would have to be in Davids case from a 93 and up Tbird. And if that is the case then at the 215hp level it was a legal swap considering you swapped out every and all peices. The minute youmnodified it ..It no longer is.

And sending your GT to Heffners for a turbo upgrade unless CARB approved would not be legal either....Anyhow being everything from the block to the engine management system at this point is different youde have a hard time arguing it to be a legal swap.

We shouldnt even be discussing this..I just merely said it wouldnt be legal. This is something that all of us hotrodders are faced with. What the question at hand was the cage itself.

Something mentioned by Jason awhile back that should be expanded upon is that the passenger compartment is not made to crumple in an impact (of course it can and does depending on the force. The use of any type of cage will lessen the chance of the passenger compartment being effected at the loss of shock impaction via crumple zones....That is why it smandatory to have a 5 point harness. A hit with a full caged car is much greater in force then that of a car with crumple zones

[ben m]

hey damon, have you ever heard of SEMA?

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Yes Ben..Being I worked in the high performance auto world for approximately 5 year sI had privy to attending thier annual shows as well...And they do fight for teh rights of us hot rodders to be able to get parts available for vehicles..If it wasnt for thier combined strenght there would be no aftermarket..Ist the very reason why you can bolt on a vortech..saleen sc etc etc and still be 100% legal..

However not all aftermarket parts are legal for onroad use..a majority arnt

Your point being?

[David Neibert]

However it would be safer

Damon,

You keep saying it would be safer, I keep saying it would be more dangerous. Since we aren't likely to reach agreement on that point, let's just drop it and move on to something else.

David

[CarlisleLandOwn]

This thread isn't about David or his half way car, it is about safety regulations setup by a national racing sanction and why the rules are there. It is also a beginning point on how to choose the proper amount of safety equipment for your particular vehicle. Point blank, I said in jest earlier that when I get into a car without front AND side air bags I simply don't wear a seat belt at all ... for those of us that were not smart enough to get it, it was a side comment about safety. How many MN12’s meet 2007 safety standards? Yet most of us still put on a seat belt every time we get into a car. So, putting a 6 point cage in a car is better then no cage as it is SOME protection where there was none. Do I recommend that everyone goes partial way on safety equipment? NO! But I do believe we should add as much safety equipment to our cars as possible. I could honestly care less if David hits a telephone pole tomorrow and splatters his colon all over the highway, however, the information on what can and will save your life is still brought to the other hundreds of members. Neibert, stop taking this as if it were a personal attack on you, and start looking at it as the information it truly is. The same goes for the rest of your sack hangers.

[BT Motorsports]

Damon,

You keep saying it would be safer, I keep saying it would be more dangerous. Since we aren't likely to reach agreement on that point, let's just drop it and move on to something else.

David
Ok, I have to ask, David, do you normally wear your seatbelt whenever you are in a moving vehicle? If so, the next question I have is do you feel that a standard 3 point seat belt would not keep you from hitting your head on a rollbar/cage which if I understand it correctly is what you feel is unsafe about a caged street driven vehicle? Since this topic has been brought up and since I am in the midst of building a vehicle (MN12 SC) that will require safety equipment into the 10s, I need to make a decision about how I will treat the rollbar/cage issue for myself.

BTW, does anyone know if it states anywhere that round tubing must be used to build a rollbar/cage or can box tubing be used instead? I don't have a rulebook and will not be acquiring one till '07 comes out.

Paul

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Paul,

From what I recall it has to be round and of a certain wall thickness.

David,

I still cant see how having a cage and a harness would be more dangerous./..Just tell me under what conditions you would hit your head on a bar during a collision when properly strapped in...

Because I will say it again...If you get hard enough to be torn from your harness to smash your head on the bar of the cage.. Youde be dead in a car with no cage..I can 100% garuntee that.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Ok, I have to ask, David, do you normally wear your seatbelt whenever you are in a moving vehicle? If so, the next question I have is do you feel that a standard 3 point seat belt would not keep you from hitting your head on a rollbar/cage which if I understand it correctly is what you feel is unsafe about a caged street driven vehicle? Since this topic has been brought up and since I am in the midst of building a vehicle (MN12 SC) that will require safety equipment into the 10s, I need to make a decision about how I will treat the rollbar/cage issue for myself.

BTW, does anyone know if it states anywhere that round tubing must be used to build a rollbar/cage or can box tubing be used instead? I don't have a rulebook and will not be acquiring one till '07 comes out.
Paul


Yes, depending on the organization you race with will determine cage design. Size, shape, and placement are all in the rule book.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Paul,

From what I recall it has to be round and of a certain wall thickness.

David,

I still cant see how having a cage and a harness would be more dangerous./..Just tell me under what conditions you would hit your head on a bar during a collision when properly strapped in...

Because I will say it again...If you get hard enough to be torn from your harness to smash your head on the bar of the cage.. Youde be dead in a car with no cage..I can 100% garuntee that.

The conditions are people don't know what a proper cage looks like. Simple as that.

[91supacoop]

i've never been in a roll over, but with two 45MPH (one into a tree[VW], and one t-boneing another car[Saturn]) and one 50 MPH (into a gaurd rail [sc])crash the 3 point factory harness never allowed me to hit anything. Maybe i just got lucky. In a rollover in the VW i would want 5 pt. Convertibles are scary.

[Kurt K]

Are you guys missing the point that in some states it is illegal to drive around wearing 5-pt harnesses? I'm sure that most of the time you wouldn't get stopped for it.

As for a cage being safer or not on the street, until a car with a cage goes through the same 5-star crash testing that OEM's go through, there is no way of knowing if a cage is safer in a traffic accident. I have no doubt that at the track a cage can be safer than no cage. There is no proof of a car with a cage on the street being safer than the same car without, just theories.

Neibert, stop taking this as if it were a personal attack on you...

from the same exact post:

This thread isn't about David or his half way car...

seems like a personal attack to me :rolleyes:

[ben m]

lets everyone just take a big breath and chill! damon, i was just pionting out that there are ways to modify a car and it still be 100% legal, and that i don't think it is our place to be argueing about it, besides many of these are state issues, and most of us live in different states!

[David Neibert]

Ok, I have to ask, David, do you normally wear your seatbelt whenever you are in a moving vehicle? If so, the next question I have is do you feel that a standard 3 point seat belt would not keep you from hitting your head on a rollbar/cage which if I understand it correctly is what you feel is unsafe about a caged street driven vehicle? Since this topic has been brought up and since I am in the midst of building a vehicle (MN12 SC) that will require safety equipment into the 10s, I need to make a decision about how I will treat the rollbar/cage issue for myself.

BTW, does anyone know if it states anywhere that round tubing must be used to build a rollbar/cage or can box tubing be used instead? I don't have a rulebook and will not be acquiring one till '07 comes out.

Paul

Paul,

Yes I always wear the factory supplied belts and insist that any passengers wear the belts. I don't think that a properly designed 5 or 6 point roll bar presents any additional danger to the driver or passengers riding in the front seat when driving on the street without a helmet. I do think they present a danger to anyone riding in the back seat.

My issues concerning safety are not with a roll bar on the street, they are with a full blown 25.2 NHRA certified chassis/cage. Had the NHRA rules not been changed a couple years ago to require any car going 135 or faster, to meet all rules for a 9.99 second car, I could just use a basic 5 or 6 point roll bar. I suppose I could install a 6 point bar, scatter sheild and a 5 point harness and head back to the track and see how long it takes to get kicked out again.

The problem with that plan is, I'm 100% certian that it will go faster than 135 mph with the boost turned up. At the 2005 Shootout it ran 129 and then on it's second pass it was on track for 131 when it blew the HG. That was at 20 pounds of boost (oops !) with the turbo not spooling up until about 90 ft down the track. The sweet spot on this turbo and engine combo is 24 pounds, but it will go as high as 30 pounds. When doing some recent testing at 14-15 pounds, launching the car off the footbrake with no boost yeilded 12.7 @ 118 mph......launching with 1.5 pounds off the trans brake yeilded 11.7 @ 125....launching with about 3 pounds off the trans brake yeilded 11.4 @ 125. Thats a gain of 7 mph on the same tune at the same boost level and still the car was leaving the line soft (1.9 60ft). Based on that info...what do you think it's going to do with 24 pounds and launching with about 6 pounds off the brake ? So now I'm stuck with a roll bar in a car that still isn't legal to race.

The picture of a 25.2 chassis/cage I posted earlier was for a car weighing about 3200 lbs, for a car weighing 4000 lbs even more bars would be required. IMO...at the point of adding a cage it becomes a full blown race car and should no longer be driven on the streets. In my case it would be a very fat race car, not well suited for racing in any class and it will never be competitive, and that was never the intent for this car anyway. IMO, It's also no longer safe for driving on the street without a helmet because my head would be surronded with bars.

David

[Micahdogg]

I just want everyone to know that I feel a lot better about David's car now. Thanks for the contributions and keep them coming. If anyone has pictures to accompany their replies, that would be killer! And please leave a tough questions for me to ponder along with the picture. That gets my creative juices flowing.

Micah

[CarlisleLandOwn]

I just want everyone to know that I feel a lot better about David's car now. Thanks for the contributions and keep them coming. If anyone has pictures to accompany their replies, that would be killer! And please leave a tough questions for me to ponder along with the picture. That gets my creative juices flowing.

Micah

I just want everyone to know that I feel better about micah feeling better.

[CarlisleLandOwn]

Are you guys missing the point that in some states it is illegal to drive around wearing 5-pt harnesses? I'm sure that most of the time you wouldn't get stopped for it.

As for a cage being safer or not on the street, until a car with a cage goes through the same 5-star crash testing that OEM's go through, there is no way of knowing if a cage is safer in a traffic accident. I have no doubt that at the track a cage can be safer than no cage. There is no proof of a car with a cage on the street being safer than the same car without, just theories.



from the same exact post:



seems like a personal attack to me :rolleyes:

I think you are missing the point. Allow me to explain, this is a general thread, ment to point out a few (Edit by Admin) facts. I have CLEARLY stated time and time again that if you are serious about protecting your self to GO TO THE LOCAL CHASSIS BUILDER! They will have all the local laws, regulations, and rules. If you disagree go start your own thread, if you have a question this is the place to ask, I'm certain someone else is probably thinking the same question and I'm sure someone here will have ACTUAL experience and be able to answer that question (Edit By Admin).

Sooo, your saying that the safety that a cage can provide on a race track will not provide safety on the street ... where does the safety go? Is this part time safety transferable? Did it stay at the track? Can I somehow rent your safety that you left at the track when you are not at the track?

[VicRattlehead]

dont forget at 9.99 you need a nhra license and a physical.

[Kurt K]

I think you are missing the point. Allow me to explain, this is a general thread, ment to point out a few (Edit by Admin) facts. I have CLEARLY stated time and time again that if you are serious about protecting your self to GO TO THE LOCAL CHASSIS BUILDER! They will have all the local laws, regulations, and rules. If you disagree go start your own thread, if you have a question this is the place to ask, I'm certain someone else is probably thinking the same question and I'm sure someone here will have ACTUAL experience and be able to answer that question....

Sooo, your saying that the safety that a cage can provide on a race track will not provide safety on the street ... where does the safety go? Is this part time safety transferable? Did it stay at the track? Can I somehow rent your safety that you left at the track when you are not at the track?

No, what I'm saying is that the safety of cages have been proven time and again at the track, but is there PROOF of a caged car being safer (or even more dangerous) than the same non-caged car on the street. I think is reasonable to presume that a caged car has not been subjected to NHTSA testing, so where is the proof? I'm just looking for FACTS, not conjecture.

...instead of this useless (Edit by Admin) bickering that you are doing.
Hmmm, pot calling the kettle black?