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XR7 Dave
12-19-2006, 07:10 PM
I want to thank everyone for your participation in our previous poll and discussion regarding a new cylinder head for the SC. We have nailed down some specific details regarding this proposed new product and are ready to share some of the info with you.

For the most part the discussion of what to do, how to approach the project, what to expect, and what will sell the best, etc. is over. As I stated before the design details are best left to the pro's and our job was complete when we let them know what we thought we were looking for. Now it remains for us to drum up the support necessary to make it a reality.

If something we present doesn't sit well with someone please feel free to speak and we will explain the whys and wherefores here in this thread. I expect this thread to carry us into production so lets keep our thoughts and comments focused on the fact that this thread is going down in history. :D


So. Here it is.


In the beginning some of us where a little - ok a lot - optimistic about what to expect from the new ports "out of the box." After a detailed look at the stock head as well as a fully ported version, the designers are convinced that an out of the box intake port flow number would be responsibly targeted at about 240cfm. Before anyone gets a long face about that, a quick look at the AFR 165cc Street SBF head shows 245cfm and the AFR 180cc Street SBC head flows 260cfm out of the box. To shoot for 240cfm out of the box puts us within reach of some of the best street small block cylinder heads on the market.

It was brought clearly to my attention that there are several things that we need to consider when looking at flow numbers for our heads.

1) Because we have an injector port in the head directly above the intake port, it follows that port height is limited by the need to have gasket material between the injector and the port. This limits as-cast potential.

2) Our heads are on top of a small 3.811 bore. Big flow numbers need room to work and big valves to go with them. The AFR heads refered to above all run with 2.02 valves. We can run that big of a valve but it will create shrouding problems at higher flow rates. Out of the box our heads will run smaller valves.

3) Runner volume. It is comparatively easy to get a large flow number from a large port but the problem begins when you consider that these heads will also be targeted as part of the marketing mix, at NA 3.8L engines. A large port volume would make the head useless on a normal NA 3.8.

So for these reasons it was suggested to me that we stay on the conservative side with port volume and concentrate on an efficient port that maintains better velocity.

So what is involved in an efficient port? This is where it gets good. There are so many revisions to our existing design it's almost too much to put into words so I'll start with the basics.

1) Valve angles and alignment will be retained. There is no real need to relocate any valves or change the angles. This is good when considering the number of stout shortblocks already out there not to mention those contemplating new heads for a stock pistoned motor.

2) By altering piston to valve clearance slightly and increasing deck thickness it will be possible to increase the stock short turn raduis by nearly an inch. This is a critical aspect of flow efficiency on the head. By raising the port floor we can achieve a turning of the air before it hits the cylinder. As it is now the air/fuel is simply slammed into the cylinder wall opposite the injector. By raising the the floor and initiating a turn prior to hitting the back of the valve, the mixture in the cylinder will be much more homogenous and will burn faster with less tendancy to detonate. This is one of the greatest benefits of this port design and it doesn't show up in raw flow numbers.

3) Port configuration. We have all agreed that from a marketing perspective it would be simply be asking too much to move the center port to a symetrical location. For most applications a proper redesign of that port will be sufficient. By moving the pushrod over and straightening the port we will be able to achieve a close balance between all ports. It is conceiveable that at some point through extensive porting someone will come to a point that the center port will not keep up any longer. We have kept this in mind and we have asked for (and received) the option to have the center port made symtrical with the end ports. It is something that will be designed into the molds making the change a simple matter of ordering a production run of symetrical port heads.

4) It was not felt that there is any particular need to dramatically depart from the basic exhaust port design that we already have. The welded radius exhaust ports currently in use already reflect modern exhaust port design technology and will be incorporated into these heads. No significant changes are planned and the port should flow 200cfm as cast giving us an 83% IE ratio out of the box. Stock exhaust hardware will most definitely fit.

5) Expect smaller combustion chambers. A more efficient layout with dual quench pads and a relocated spark plug are the biggest differences. Expect to raise compression by about a point over what you would have had otherwise. We feel that with a more efficient combustion chamber and better flow that higher compression will not result in any increased octane sensitivity. Driveability, fuel mileage, and throttle response should be expected to be noticably improved.

6) Valvetrain will be completely different. The valves will be longer and larger (1.94 intake and 1.60 exhaust as cast), and the rocker arm geometry we now use will not be carried over. The rockers will be stud mounted and the base for them to attach to will be a solid bar accross the entire head. It will be made in such a way to allow for a custom shaft system like T&D to be made for extreme rpm and solid roller cam applications. The heads will accept readily available hardware for cost effectiveness and servicability.

7) Most likely due to increased deck height, overall stock intake manifold height will be raised some - target is less than 1/2" raise. Of course while it will accept a stock intake, these heads are intended for an aftermarket intake and in most cases an aftermarket hood for clearance. However that will not be required for those simply using a stock intake and an M90 for that stock look.

These heads will be truely bolt on although their dimensions may differ slightly from stock and may require some slight accomodations (such as increased intake manifold height). They are made from 356 aluminum and will be heat treated to maximum hardness making them MUCH stiffer overall than the stock head.

So that's what is on the table. This is what we have been offered by the designer/manufacturer and I feel it truely represents what we have been waiting for. It will allow us to bolt on the head as is, it will allow us to develop the port for maximum flow, and it will allow us to develop other parts to compliment the heads without worrying about over-running them. The designer assured us that with this head we WILL be finding the next weakest link.

What thinks you??

David

SCreamin
12-19-2006, 07:57 PM
how much and when will they be done?? will we have the option of purchasing a manifold that is already modified to fit?

AMD[H]unter
12-19-2006, 08:14 PM
So now, if we get new heads, the lower intake will be the weakest link, right?

CMac89
12-19-2006, 08:22 PM
As far as pricing goes, we are aiming to keep it lower than expected, but it is really too early to jump to a conclusion on pricing. He has a couple of projects in front of him, so depending on everything that goes well, we could possibly see some head castings third or fourth quarter of next year.

The stock intake will be usable and a better intake manifold is planned to become part of a package. Considering the stock intake is currently the weakest link.

bowez
12-19-2006, 08:44 PM
Sound good to me (actually perfect), now just cost?

What is the current Stock CFM of the heads?

Roadhawg
12-19-2006, 10:02 PM
Sound good to me (actually perfect), now just cost?

What is the current Stock CFM of the heads?


I believe they are something like this:

Intake-1.78 intake valve
.025-13.7
.050-27.1
.100-51.6
.200-81.5
.300-110.6
.400-144.3
.500-169.9
.600-181.0
.650-183.1

Exhaust-1.46 exhaust valve
.025-10.1
.050-20.3
.100-40.1
.200-71.4
.300-95.3
.400-113.4
.500-122.5
.600-127.3
.650-129.3

XR7 Dave
12-19-2006, 10:29 PM
Flow numbers vary a lot. I've seen numbers all over the map for stock heads and ported heads vary even more. Here is what I have compiled over time on my bench. This isn't to suggest that my bench is the last word, but it helps to use the same bench for comparison purposes.

I'll state flow at .500" lift only because that is the best indicator of what is really happening.

Intake:

Stock ---------- 170cfm
Normal ported -- 195cfm
Steig ---------- 232cfm

Exhaust:

Stock --------- 120cfm
Normal ported - 155cfm
Steig --------- 205cfm

Obviously results vary but you can now see where we are coming from with our 240/200 target #'s. We will beat the best ported heads out there straight out of the box and then with additional porting the possibilities are much greater.

Toms-SC
12-19-2006, 10:49 PM
Interesting to say the least but I am very concerned over the lower intake manifold. :o

Mike8675309
12-19-2006, 10:56 PM
Sounds like exactly what we can use. Let's go forward with this.

Ira R.
12-19-2006, 11:24 PM
Interesting to say the least but I am very concerned over the lower intake manifold. :o

never mind......asked and answered,,,,,,,,,,

XxSlowpokexX
12-19-2006, 11:38 PM
Sounds good to me Dave.>Exactly what I'd want..And would expect a majority of 3.8 owners to want as well making them very marketable

XR7 Dave
12-19-2006, 11:59 PM
Interesting to say the least but I am very concerned over the lower intake manifold. :o

The lower intake is not a big concern. The investment of time and money into a new head casting is many times what it takes to do an intake manifold. Once the heads are a reality there will likely come into being more than one manifold option. An intake manifold alternative will be available before the heads will be. Because these heads are going to be direct bolt in, it follows that there is no need to wait for the heads to begin design and production of an intake. It's already in the works.

:)

XxSlowpokexX
12-20-2006, 12:24 AM
Thats even better

David Neibert
12-20-2006, 10:33 AM
5) Expect smaller combustion chambers. A more efficient layout with dual quench pads and a relocated spark plug are the biggest differences. Expect to raise compression by about a point over what you would have had otherwise. We feel that with a more efficient combustion chamber and better flow that higher compression will not result in any increased octane sensitivity. Driveability, fuel mileage, and throttle response should be expected to be noticably improved.

6) Valvetrain will be completely different. The valves will be longer and larger (1.94 intake and 1.60 exhaust as cast), and the rocker arm geometry we now use will not be carried over. The rockers will be stud mounted and the base for them to attach to will be a solid bar accross the entire head. It will be made in such a way to allow for a custom shaft system like T&D to be made for extreme rpm and solid roller cam applications. The heads will accept readily available hardware for cost effectiveness and servicability

Dave,

Can you please post some pictures showing what the revised combustion chamber and valvetrain is going to look like. I'm a little confused about dual quench pads and the solid bar across the entire head. How do you do a solid bar with canted valves...I'm thinking shaft mounted rockers, but maybe your talking about something else.

Pics of similar design v8 aftermarket heads would make it much easier to understand.

David

XR7 Dave
12-20-2006, 11:05 AM
Dave,

Can you please post some pictures showing what the revised combustion chamber and valvetrain is going to look like. I'm a little confused about dual quench pads and the solid bar across the entire head. How do you do a solid bar with canted valves...I'm thinking shaft mounted rockers, but maybe your talking about something else.

Pics of similar design v8 aftermarket heads would make it much easier to understand.

David

Here is the TA Performance Buick V6 head.
http://www.taperformance.com/index_files/TA%203850SE.jpg

The structure on which the rocker attaches is a solid cast area machined flat to accept rocker studs. Since this surface is CNC machined it is a minor detail to incorporate the angles necessary to match the valve angles. The base would be flat and just the surface would be treated to the minor angles necessary to match the valves. Guide plates would be built in and are not shown on the example heads.

For a shaft rocker setup the surface is milled flat and then the rocker shaft setup has the angles built into it. Here is an example.
http://www.tdmach.com/images/page10.gif

And this is a dual quench pad.


http://popularhotrodding.com/tech/0606phr_15_z+pontiac_engine+combustion_chamber.jpg

doug93sc
12-20-2006, 11:48 AM
So far everything looks good Dave....Do you have any idea how long the design to production process will take? I understand that it will be awhile before any of this gets going...just curious.

seawalkersee
12-20-2006, 03:23 PM
So...I am guessing that this is just a bit different than I had read before? I thought this was going to be a top end package. Are you saying that these will be a bare head, a head loaded with valves and springs, or a "ready to bolt on" head with ALL of the rockers and correct valve geometry equipment?

(This is not a complaint. I am just wondering when/how to plan my next year.)

Chris

XxSlowpokexX
12-20-2006, 03:27 PM
Chris from what I get is they will be offering a fully put together head with a certain size valve. There will be options for larger valves and to run shaft type rockers.

Dave,

Can we bore our blocks out enough to utilize a 2.02 valve without shrouding?

CMac89
12-20-2006, 03:42 PM
The stud mounted rocker system is widely available through dealers such as Jeg's and Summit. If desired, we can supply them in some type of complete "top-end bolt-on" package.The heads will be available assembled or bare.

The largest safe overbore is about .040" and that really isn't enough to cure shrouding of the valve within the cylinder, but of course it would help.

It will take around 3-5 months, once it is started, to complete depending on how everything works out.

XR7 Dave
12-20-2006, 03:49 PM
The heads will be available as bare castings or complete assemblies much like any other head is offered by anyone else. There will also be a fully CNC ported version available for those who want that. However, it would be quite pre-mature to quote ultimate flow #'s considering that the heads haven't even been made yet.

Damon, the seats will accept a 2.02 valve. Whether or not it will perform effectively in our cylinders is something that would have to be tested on a finished product. There is a point in time during the development perhaps when we will know how it will work but that point will come after the committment to the project has already been made. We just can't make a definitive statement on that matter right now.

Micahdogg
12-20-2006, 05:01 PM
"There will also be a fully CNC ported version available for those who want that."

David Neibert
12-20-2006, 05:51 PM
7) Most likely due to increased deck height, overall stock intake manifold height will be raised some - target is less than 1/2" raise. Of course while it will accept a stock intake, these heads are intended for an aftermarket intake and in most cases an aftermarket hood for clearance. However that will not be required for those simply using a stock intake and an M90 for that stock look.






Dave,

I'm also confused how it will be possible to use the stock intake manifold if the height of the head is increased to allow for a thicker deck. When looking at this picture, it appears that increasing the height of the heads would also require a wider intake manifold. I suppose that could be addressed with some type of spacer plates or by making the head itself thicker on the intake side. Even then we would still need to address the gap on the ends (front and rear) of the manifold.

Just curious how you plan to address that issue ?

http://members.tccoa.com/dneibert/rockers110102.jpg


David

PS: I've got 1.94" intake valves and can't imagine being able to fit anything larger in these new heads.

Micahdogg
12-20-2006, 06:05 PM
I was thinking something like this?

XR7 Dave
12-20-2006, 06:41 PM
Dave,

I'm also confused how it will be possible to use the stock intake manifold if the height of the head is increased to allow for a thicker deck. When looking at this picture, it appears that increasing the height of the heads would also require a wider intake manifold. I suppose that could be addressed with some type of spacer plates or by making the head itself thicker on the intake side. Even then we would still need to address the gap on the ends (front and rear) of the manifold.

Just curious how you plan to address that issue ?

The heads will be wider and a small spacer will be required on the ends of a stock intake. Aftermarket intakes would incorporate the necessary design changes. The benefits of this far outway the minor inconvenience. This design difference is not required for a thicker deck, rather the design change is part of the effort to raise the intake port floor and increase the short turn radius. My explanation in the first post was worded in a way to help you visualize what we are doing so yes, your perception is correct.


I've got 1.94" intake valves and can't imagine being able to fit anything larger in these new heads.2.02" valves fit fine in the heads. The problem is when the valve is opened it comes very close to the cylinder wall which may or may not be a problem for flow at high lift. The canting of the valves does help with this phenomenon but just how much remains to be seen. Typically in a situation like ours a larger valve will flow more at low lift and choke a little at higher lifts. In the end it will be a matter of testing to find out which size better suits our motors. Since we tend to run shorter lift and duration compared to the NA guys, chances are that the bigger valve will be favored in most applications.

white95v6
12-21-2006, 12:00 AM
rock on. can't wait to see the finished product.


also a long know trick. is to clearance the block for big valve. just cut the first .30-.80 of the cylinder wall to allow for valve unshrouding(notch it).

Nettlesd
12-21-2006, 12:26 PM
Any chances of a new block in the future?

white95v6
12-21-2006, 01:15 PM
Any chances of a new block in the future?

call TA Performance. they will make you a block.

Toms-SC
12-21-2006, 06:08 PM
I'll personally be waiting on getting a set of handported heads until progress is made on this. I hate to be the first to try something again but... :p

Flex
12-21-2006, 07:24 PM
White 95 is right. Notching the cylinder block can easily be done by a good machinist and would greatly reduce valve shrouding by the bore.


All the talk of benefits etc. is fine but in the immortal words of Tuco "Yeah, yeah tell me about the dollars"

Toms-SC
12-29-2006, 12:29 PM
Dave is there such thing as flowing too much air? I also think you need to elaborate more on the lower intake manifold situation. :)

lilredstang
12-29-2006, 06:28 PM
Ok so will this aftermarket intake work with just these new aftermarket heads or will it work with oh say the hand ported factory heads I just got?? I am sure I am not the only person that has good ported heads already and are looking at an intake option. boss is telling me to leave early.. got to go

T-bird Tim
12-29-2006, 08:49 PM
I would definitely buy this if I could get it in a package deal. I think if I could get the heads fully assembled with matching intake, it would be perfect. I would want to be able to do the install in the driveway in an afternoon instead of having to give money to a shop to do it. It sounds great so far, I will be glad to see it come to fruition and see some dyno results.

Super XR7
12-30-2006, 01:14 PM
Ok so will this aftermarket intake work with just these new aftermarket heads or will it work with oh say the hand ported factory heads I just got?? I am sure I am not the only person that has good ported heads already and are looking at an intake option. boss is telling me to leave early.. got to go

The intake manifold under developement will work on the OEM heads with mulitiple supercharger configurations such as M90, AR (air to air), AR inverted, and AR (air to water). We are a few months away from completing the first prototypes.

Mike

Flex
12-30-2006, 04:09 PM
Mike,
While all this is welcomed in the way of potential huge gains in power, the bottom line is cost. It's not going to mean much to most of us if the heads are going to be $2000 and the intake is another $500 plus valves, springs etc. etc.

What is the projected pricing?

XR7 Dave
12-31-2006, 01:44 AM
Mike,
While all this is welcomed in the way of potential huge gains in power, the bottom line is cost. It's not going to mean much to most of us if the heads are going to be $2000 and the intake is another $500 plus valves, springs etc. etc.

What is the projected pricing?
Cost is not the bottom line. If cost were the bottom line we wouldn't be considering this project for a car that is out of production over 10 years and has no current aftermarket support. Performance is the bottom line and meeting the wants/needs of this community while achieving said performance is the goal of this effort. That being said, it is too early to announce pricing at this time. We have already been as specific as we can be on that subject.

XxSlowpokexX
12-31-2006, 04:12 AM
Dave...YA mind yelling at someone else besides me for mentioning price? :o)~

95pearlbird
01-02-2007, 01:35 AM
Just wanted to add in some thoughts on this.......
Price:
Antime you have a limited production run like this, pricing may be a little high, but it all depends on the volume produced and sold, and that is down the road from the prototype stage, which is where this project is currently at, and that is why it is too soon to even guess as far as price. But naturally, if you have a run of 250 sets, the cost will be less than if you do 50 sets.
Either way, compared to say, Mustang items, the volume is going to be low, and that is why it is really going to help if these fit all Ford 3.8 V6's, and not just SC's, because there are a lot of those out in circulation. Still, this is not going to be huge numbers, and as such, they may be a bit pricey, especially after adding in valves, springs, etc. Performance is not usually cheap, and making your own heads from scratch, is NEVER going to be a cheap item.

Thank You Dave, for your hard work on this! We SC'rs are extremely lucky to find a company willing to even undertake a project of this magnitude, and also very fortunate to have a person so dedicated to making it happen!
You are right on the mark. In any project like this, performance is the #1 priority, cost is the secondary objective.Lower the cost, the more you can sell, but they have to be better than anything else thats out there.

It's a great idea to have enough meat built into the ports for CNC machining/porting to be specific for a supercharged application vs. NA application.The flow velocities are too different to be common to both, I would think.
I won't get too much into the valvetrain here, but longer, chrome-moly pushrods may be in order.I'd go with anodized aluminum, roller-tipped rockers, possibly with needle-bearings, solid shafts.
Use grade 10 hardware, red loc-tite. Aluminum threads can be a pain.
Steel Inserts for the plug threads?
I know of a company that manufactures valve springs(dual-coil progressive-wound)(for NASCAR) if you need a reference for that.
Arias, Manley, Black Diamond, are a few valve manufacturers with high-quality, and a wide variety of sizes, in three-angle. Provide a thick,solid, brass-alloy guide. Doesn't have to be berilium-copper.
Note that seals from air-cooled MC engines will take a huge amount of heat. Edelbrock has a huge CNC facility in Hemet, Ca. They may take on side jobs for heads, manifolds, castings, etc.They have a complete foundry there.

Raising the compression ratio even slightly, knowing the HG problems, and hopefully avoiding them, should require the heads to be designed for their own specific headgasket. Copper sandwiched O-ring-styles would be my choice, for the best possible sealing properties.These would also come with new intake manifold gaskets included. ARP should be able to supply a taller stud kit, as well.If it holds up under a SC application, it will be fine for a NA application.

Regarding the lower intake;
1)stock heads vs. new heads, and heigth difference.
2)stock M90 vs. different blower applications.

Four, and more, different combinations here.....
It would seem to require two different castings, with the only difference being the air entry location.

Casting 1 - would fit either head, and be used in conjunction with the stock M90(also MPII, MPIII, etc.)using the stock intercooler return tube location and stock blower mounting.
You'd have Version 1-PF, which would have a very thick intake/head flange for use with the new performance heads, and also taller ends to fit the new heigth to the block. This would also require longer bolts.
Version 1-Stk would be the same casting, with the only difference being the thickness of the int/head flange area, and the end/block height. Depending on the thickness needed, it may be easier to use the same casting, and just mill it down to fit the lower heigth of the stock SC heads, if its not too thick.

Really, though, how many people would need just a manifold to fit stock/ported heads? Would there be enough to justify it? Or should the manifold be made to fit the new heads only, and thats it? Matched Set only?
It really would be better to just sell them as a set.Obviously, the port size would be different wouldn't it? Toss in the needs of a manifold going on a NA 3.8, adds in more unknowns. Easier just to sell a port-matched manifold, with heads, gaskets and all, included in one package, to bolt onto an M90 SC.
With clearance for the new raised heigth of the rear IC tube location, and a seperate "buildable" valvetrain assortment, depending on cam profile used.

Maybe the above manifold would be SC-specific for use with the new heads, and an M90 only, and the one below could be machined to fit the new, or the stock heads, since that is also the one the NA 3.8 guys would be buying.To use the manifold below on an SC with the stock heads, would facilitate a blower change from the M90.

Aside from the head height, though, you would still need two castings due to the air inlet/sc being used.......

Version 2-Would have the same port configuration, possibly different runners, and fit the new heads, but the inlet location would be changed. Instead of a rear IC tube location, it would have a large square middle air entry cast into it,much like a traditional 4-bbl. carb manifold. Then you would have a number of different adapters to fit various applications.
One bottom piece would then fit any number of different blowers being used, with various intercoolers,all with the new heads. For instance, one adaptor would bolt up to a stock NA 3.8 set-up.One would fit an air-to-air intercooler/ AR, one would fit a water-to-air IC/AR, etc., etc.
This way you can not only accomodate whatever blower choice one may have, but also, you add in a whole new possibility of increasing flow by placing the intercooler under the blower, like many of the Mustang kits do, and eliminating the forward mount IC, and all the IC tubes, if desired. You could also incorporate into these adaptors, a model with a spray bar for an alky or NOS kit, or both, for either an sc or na application......
It's far easier to make a variety of adaptors fitting one common manifold, than to make different manifolds specific to each one.
This way also makes it easier to match production to the demand.
One of the best sellers, would probably be for the heads, manifold, and adaptor for the 1.7 AR kit. ;-) Notice I didn't mention the price.

Obviously, this manifold ,with a different blower/adaptor/IC on top of it,
would not fit under a stock hood...Quite possibly, the top one wouldn't either due to the extra heigth of the new heads/manifold.

Whatcha think, Dave?
My bet is that you already have thought along these same lines.
No need to reply, just some food for thought...

Great project, Very Interesting, and a new HP step...Keep up the Good Work!

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL! ~D

Toms-SC
01-04-2007, 04:35 PM
For those of you that continue asking for a price on a product thats not done I would suggest looking at what current LS1 heads are at then add a small premium. You'll get an educated guess this way. Start saving.

Currently the heads from TA Performance for the Buicks are roughly $1600 US for the barecast and $2600 for the fully assembled

kws6000
01-04-2007, 06:46 PM
Mike,
While all this is welcomed in the way of potential huge gains in power, the bottom line is cost. It's not going to mean much to most of us if the heads are going to be $2000 and the intake is another $500 plus valves, springs etc. etc.

What is the projected pricing?

Dont hold your breath for complete heads being less than $2500-2700/pr.

BlackbirdSC
01-06-2007, 04:06 AM
Cost is not the bottom line. If cost were the bottom line we wouldn't be considering this project for a car that is out of production over 10 years and has no current aftermarket support. Performance is the bottom line and meeting the wants/needs of this community while achieving said performance is the goal of this effort. That being said, it is too early to announce pricing at this time. We have already been as specific as we can be on that subject.

Dave, if you need anything in this adventure, give me a shout. I'd also 'donate' my car for testing if you need one. I'm not all that far away. The heads that are on it have 60k miles and are showing signs of bad guides/seals as it is. And when I had them apart 50k miles ago, 1 exhaust wasn't sealing right, but I stuffed it back together anyway.

I've been kicking around the idea of spending next years tax return (Jan-Feb 2008 should be about $3500) on the SC anyway to put on a new set of heads and a solid roller cam setup, if linked lifters fit, pushing .650" lift or so. I'm in for a set of bare heads no matter what the cost anyway. Whenever you need $$$, a car, spare motor parts or whatever, just ask. Email me since I don't check the board much anymore.

XxSlowpokexX
01-06-2007, 04:50 AM
Currently the heads from TA Performance for the Buicks are roughly $1600 US for the barecast and $2600 for the fully assembled

1799.95 fully assembled

Throw some nifty all out shaft rocker setups and you add another 860.25 or 545 dependent on the head you purchased..And a slew of options

Bare castings are $1195

I thought we wernt going to mention pricing anymore?..Especially wrong pricing of other products

Starts at page 16
http://www.taperformance.com/PAGES%20PDF/2006F_1.pdf

This can give them a good idea of all of the different options that can be offered

kws6000
01-06-2007, 04:24 PM
1799.95 fully assembled

Throw some nifty all out shaft rocker setups and you add another 860.25 or 545 dependent on the head you purchased..And a slew of options

Bare castings are $1195

I thought we wernt going to mention pricing anymore?..Especially wrong pricing of other products

Starts at page 16
http://www.taperformance.com/PAGES%20PDF/2006F_1.pdf

This can give them a good idea of all of the different options that can be offered

1799.95 w/o any rockers.

AMD[H]unter
01-06-2007, 08:37 PM
I just thought of something, and I didn't see it mentioned in this thread anywhere. Will the stock head hardware fit up on this new head for those of us that have a limited(ish) budget?

Toms-SC
01-06-2007, 11:38 PM
unter;597460']I just thought of something, and I didn't see it mentioned in this thread anywhere. Will the stock head hardware fit up on this new head for those of us that have a limited(ish) budget?

These heads are designed for large valves, so I'd say no.

CMac89
01-08-2007, 11:31 AM
These heads are designed for large valves, so I'd say no.

The valves that are going to be used have the same stem diameter so the current aftermarket springs will be okay to use.

XxSlowpokexX
01-22-2007, 05:49 PM
1799.95 w/o any rockers.

If you read my post.....You would have seen that I mentioned to add another 860 or 525 for rockers....Depends on what type you want and is only that expensive because those are not average run of the mill rockers..You want a good shaft rocker system you will pay regardless of who you get it from

But the fact remains the bare cost is as I stated $1195

Having a choice of using standard roller rockers or shaft mounted rockers would be great.

Is this a consideration>?

I could see you guys offering

1) a bare casting
2) a fully assymbled casting (larger or smaller valves)
3) a fully assymbled casting with or without rockers(if going shaft rocker larger valve only as it would be more a high RPM race head)
4) CNC porting option
5) smaller/larger runner volume option

XR7 Dave
01-22-2007, 08:49 PM
If you read my post.....You would have seen that I mentioned to add another 860 or 525 for rockers....Depends on what type you want and is only that expensive because those are not average run of the mill rockers..You want a good shaft rocker system you will pay regardless of who you get it from

But the fact remains the bare cost is as I stated $1195

Having a choice of using standard roller rockers or shaft mounted rockers would be great.

Is this a consideration>?

I could see you guys offering

1) a bare casting
2) a fully assymbled casting (larger or smaller valves)
3) a fully assymbled casting with or without rockers(if going shaft rocker larger valve only as it would be more a high RPM race head)
4) CNC porting option
5) smaller/larger runner volume option

Basically what you are asking, is did we go to TA Performance and mirror their catalog offering? If that is indeed your question then no, we are not planning to copy TA Performance. We don't have the funding or the market to offer that kind of option package so it would serve us all well not to keep referring to something that isn't going to exist.

At the very best we may be able to offer a cylinder head that meets expectations on basic architecture and fitment, followed by performance in line with what we have already committed to. This means, relatively speaking, fairly large ports in an efficient configuration that will accept readily available hardware in the expected and reasonable size ranges as well as allow for extensive porting for those so inclined.

Cost will be reasonable based on our original poll but it will not likely be as "cheap" as TA Performance. Welcome to the joys of owning an SC. Want cheap heads? Put a 5.0 in it.

David Neibert
04-10-2007, 02:22 PM
Dave,

Have we made any progress on these new heads ?

David

XR7 Dave
04-10-2007, 03:37 PM
The company is ready to move when we are. We have to come up with the capital to make it happen. Currently I'm a little strapped. :cool:

XxSlowpokexX
04-10-2007, 04:28 PM
So they havnt done anything yet is what you are saying? What kind of capital are they looking at? The grandnational 3.8 was exactly made in huge numbers either. Perhaps time to look elswhere...Where they can actually see $$ to be made without expecting an investment on the racers behalf

XR7 Dave
04-10-2007, 06:26 PM
So they havnt done anything yet is what you are saying? What kind of capital are they looking at? The grandnational 3.8 was exactly made in huge numbers either. Perhaps time to look elswhere...Where they can actually see $$ to be made without expecting an investment on the racers behalf

Be my guest. I'm not looking elsewhere.

David Neibert
04-10-2007, 10:36 PM
The company is ready to move when we are. We have to come up with the capital to make it happen. Currently I'm a little strapped. :cool:

Dave,

How many sets have to be bought to make it happen ?

David

mywhite89
04-10-2007, 10:44 PM
I don't see any company just spending a crapload of time designing a head package for us without at least a decent amount of capital. Lets be honest.

I wish we could get enough capital for this to come through. Need to think of some way to come together and make it happen. I am at least a year or 2 away from buying a set of heads, but it definitely is a fact that I will buy a set once I have my car looking and running the way I want it.

I would think that everyone with a high performance engine would be all over this opportunity. Maybe you all are, I don't know:confused:

I would like to have a better understanding of what the club would need to come up with in order to get this going. I could fathom 30 head/intake packages that would sell in the next 6 years. I don't know from a business standpoint if that sounds like an entising offer, but to me it sounds like a pretty realistic number. I probably have $800 in my heads right now, I would be willing to spend a decent chunk of change on a good set of heads when I am ready.

Is it the prototype itself that we need capital for?? If so, how much money will it cost to develop a prototype? Results is what everyone has to see to feel better and want to buy.

I'll donate some money to the cause. If they produce the results people want, somebody will buy that set of heads for partial price of protoype and people who donated will get at least some of their donated money back maybe. If they don't perform, oh well. I wouldn't cry if I lost a couple bucks on a good cause. Everyone interested could donate at least a little money.

chris

CMac89
04-10-2007, 11:35 PM
Dave,

How many sets have to be bought to make it happen ?

David
The capital needed will be be determined by how many sets would need to be sold for reimbursement for contributions covering the tooling costs. The exact pricing of the heads hasn't been determined so estimations are only taken into considerations.

The amount of castings that need to be sold wouldn't be an unfathomable number. Henceforth, there would need to be "x" amount of heads sold to reimburse $50,000 worth of tooling costs.

Flex
04-11-2007, 12:20 AM
So in essence, any "contribution", "investment", "deposit" or whatever you want to call it is for a sight unseen theoretical product with no numbers or testing to let the purchaser know what they are paying for.

The money is to be used to create a product which would then be sold back to the "investors"?

The whole point of entrepeneurism is to come up with a product through your own efforts and money and then get rich selling it not use someone else's money to build a business and then get rich selling them what their money created.

I would like to hire this person or persons as salesman though cause it seems like an "investor" could get rich selling ice cubes to Eskimos with this kind of sales team.

XxSlowpokexX
04-11-2007, 12:28 AM
I don't see any company just spending a crapload of time designing a head package for us without at least a decent amount of capital. Lets be honest.

There are "huge" companies out there that have produced heads for engines without enthusiasts splitting the bill..Engines that arnt all that popular and some that arnt even produced anymore. If we as a group..And I mean all 3.8 single port owners were really serious about this and took this to several companies there may be an interest....

I personally wouldnt shell out 50,000 for a set of heads and an initial buy in to pay for those costs would be ridiculous...Then again if you sell 50 sets heads at 1,000 profit per set you cna get there

XR7 Dave
04-11-2007, 12:34 AM
So in essence, any "contribution", "investment", "deposit" or whatever you want to call it is for a sight unseen theoretical product with no numbers or testing to let the purchaser know what they are paying for.

The money is to be used to create a product which would then be sold back to the "investors"?

The whole point of entrepeneurism is to come up with a product through your own efforts and money and then get rich selling it not use someone else's money to build a business and then get rich selling them what their money created.

I would like to hire this person or persons as salesman though cause it seems like an "investor" could get rich selling ice cubes to Eskimos with this kind of sales team.

I think you are a little out of line with that assessment. No one here is selling anything. The question was asked what project was waiting on and I answered that funds are the holdup at the moment. Everything else is pure speculation.

FWIW, "entreprenureship" is very much about doing things with other people's money. Donald Trump sure as hell didn't finance everything he did. The responsible use of other people's money is what makes for long term success. But that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. We are not selling vaporware here.

XxSlowpokexX
04-11-2007, 12:34 AM
Be my guest. I'm not looking elsewhere.

Then you really arnt serious about this or there is something in this particular deal that is more benificial for you then you are letting on..Whatever it is I'm not interested at this point in time regardless....Just seems like alot of interest here from others and its a shame.

XR7 Dave
04-11-2007, 12:42 AM
There are "huge" companies out there that have produced heads for engines without enthusiasts splitting the bill..Engines that arnt all that popular and some that arnt even produced anymore. If we as a group..And I mean all 3.8 single port owners were really serious about this and took this to several companies there may be an interest....


I don't know what planet you live on but on this one no one wants to even talk to us about this. Manufacturers don't want to make parts for our engines. They have priorities and most are booked several years out making parts for currently produced engines and/or ones popular for hotrodding. For example, I talked to Pioneer about making a balancer for our cars. They said "sure no problem, but we have a waiting list and we have a minimum production run of 2000 units." On the waiting list in front of us for example was a balancer for a 428CJ, an AMC of some sort, and a tractor motor among others. Fact is we aren't even on the radar.

XR7 Dave
04-11-2007, 01:06 AM
Dave,

How many sets have to be bought to make it happen ?

David

That depends on price. If we are willing to pay $2500/set then maybe 50 sets. If we want to pay $1500/set then more like 250 sets.

Flex
04-11-2007, 01:07 AM
It is actually entrepreneurship so we both got it wrong. And Donald Trump played the role good with other people's money until he tripped and lost better than half of "his" money.

I have just gone (and still going) through 3 years of crap suing a former "partner" who took my families and another partners money (while pretending to invest an equal share), built a multi-million dollar company with no personal investment and then tried to screw us out of our investment all the while bleeding the company dry. So you will forgive me if I think funding some else's get rich project is a bad idea.

XR7 Dave
04-11-2007, 01:16 AM
It is actually entrepreneurship so we both got it wrong. And Donald Trump played the role good with other people's money until he tripped and lost better than half of "his" money.

I have just gone (and still going) through 3 years of crap suing a former "partner" who took my families and another partners money (while pretending to invest an equal share), built a multi-million dollar company with no personal investment and then tried to screw us out of our investment all the while bleeding the company dry. So you will forgive me if I think funding some else's get rich project is a bad idea.

Knowing where you are coming from I can understand the sentiment.

I personally don't have enough money to make this happen so it will definitely involve investment from other individuals but we are not selling vaporware, as I have previously stated. Anyone who invests money in this venture (if it happens) will do so with full knowledge of the risks and rewards.

Flex
04-11-2007, 01:21 AM
Again Dave forgive me for my "hostile" attitude but heavily burned in this manner makes a person wary. I guess my opinion is biased as a result.

ProComp in Australia is heavy into Fords and they have released several new heads for old "dead" fords. Might be a thought.

CMac89
04-11-2007, 10:41 AM
Again Dave forgive me for my "hostile" attitude but heavily burned in this manner makes a person wary. I guess my opinion is biased as a result.

ProComp in Australia is heavy into Fords and they have released several new heads for old "dead" fords. Might be a thought.

Maybe I should bring this up to make you more comfortable. Maybe it won't.

As a generalization, EVERY PENNY made in profit, with the heads, will be reimbursed to the investors until they ALL are paid off. Dave and I's focus is to have an aftermarket head available for the 3.8 and that's it. We've run into a wall with performance, and we want some 600rwhp SC's, dammit.:)

Pablo94SC
04-11-2007, 05:09 PM
We've run into a wall with performance, and we want some 600rwhp SC's, dammit.:)

Then install a big fargin' turbo and call it a day. :D

fturner
04-29-2007, 08:59 AM
Go figure, everyone wants something (especially VERY cheap), but now when funding is mentioned to get things started, its suddenly a "BAD" idea so forget it.....

Oh well, with attitudes like that, guess we're gonna be stuck where we are at with these cars :rolleyes: .

Randy N Connie
04-29-2007, 12:52 PM
There was a fully funded project to cast a new manifold and head combo.

When this head-manifold project was announced later.
The parent company pulled out from any further time or money investments.
And there would of been a new head-manifold for sale already.

Thanks RANDY

joshbea6
04-30-2007, 10:15 AM
I would love to help out on this. My funding is somewhat limited, but I too would love to see some 600 RWHP SC's out there, especially if one of them is mine....:D

Please feel free to contact me so that I can learn more about the venture.

XxSlowpokexX
04-30-2007, 11:25 AM
If there was something already in the works...Why was this pursued.

Because I heard exactly the same thing awhile back...From a pretty reliable source.

David Neibert
04-30-2007, 12:42 PM
Go figure, everyone wants something (especially VERY cheap), but now when funding is mentioned to get things started, its suddenly a "BAD" idea so forget it.....

Oh well, with attitudes like that, guess we're gonna be stuck where we are at with these cars :rolleyes: .

Nobody has actually started a group buy or came up with a plan on how to finance this venture. I seriously doubt that anyone is going to write a check for $50K to cover the tooling and design cost, so that leaves us with the need to sell 50 sets of heads at $2,500 a set.

Even though the poll showed something like 26 people who said they would buy now for $2,500...I'll bet that at least half of those people will not actually buy heads. It would be a hard sell even if the heads were proven to make an extra 100 HP over a set of Steigemier heads...It will be an even harder sell for a head that doesn't even exist yet.

So unless the company is willing to go out on a limb and hope to recover their investment over a longer period of time, I don't see how this project is going to move forward. Maybe Dave and Casey have a plan for how to address the money issue, if so I'd like to hear it.

David

PS: I would also like to know more about this other company that Randy mentioned.

Flex
04-30-2007, 01:49 PM
Does anyone have a link to the Steigemier heads? Keep hearing about them but have not had any exposure to them.

Flex
04-30-2007, 01:51 PM
Never mind. It was just mispelled by posters. It is Stiegemeier.

Flex
04-30-2007, 01:54 PM
I can't see anything in regards to SC heads, just cobra Mustang.

http://www.stiegemeier.com/

XxSlowpokexX
04-30-2007, 02:08 PM
He doesnt bother doing SC heads anymore as it isnt worth his time from what has been mentioned by some on here.

I'm sure when someone publicly confirms who is producing these heads someone else would gladly confirm who this other company is.

I have heard names for both but not from the horses mouth so I am noone to confirm either

BLOWN38
04-30-2007, 02:15 PM
He doesn't do SC heads anymore.

XR7 Dave
04-30-2007, 03:28 PM
It has become clear that discussing details of how/when/what for this project would be better covered in private rather than on the open forums. As usual people who have the least interest in making this a reality seem to have the most to say about those who are working to get it accomplished and the least to contribute to the technical aspects of this discussion.

For everyone else, all I have to say at this time is that the project has been delayed for an undetermined period of time and I don't anticipate any further comment on my part until such time as tooling is in progress and an expected introductory date can be estimated. Realistically that could be 6 months or it could be 3 years.

People who have negative things to say would do well to take it to some other thread. The insinuation (if that's what it was) that this discussion thwarted an already viable cylinder head program is far fetched. If "someone" has the capability of making a new cylinder head program a viable business proposition then anything we say or do here would be mostly irrelevant. I trust most of you understand and recognize this reality. If R&D had begun on a cylinder head application when this topic first came up, they could very well be on the market already giving the "company" the opportunity to cash in on all the efforts and discussions already undertaken. It would be like free advertisement. A sharp businessman would know this and would not have turned tail and run when these discussions began.

In closing I would like to say thank you to those who have contributed in a constructive manner to our discussion. Your input is appreciated.

Randy N Connie
04-30-2007, 03:53 PM
Nobody has actually started a group buy or came up with a plan on how to finance this venture. I seriously doubt that anyone is going to write a check for $50K to cover the tooling and design cost, so that leaves us with the need to sell 50 sets of heads at $2,500 a set.
It will be an even harder sell for a head that doesn't even exist yet.


David

PS: I would also like to know more about this other company that Randy mentioned.

The master heads , manifold, plenum,lost investments exist and ready
to cast.I have them setting in the shop.. And no pictures will never be
posted. So don't ask.

It was posted in the tec area that Charles Warner had been contacted.
For permission for the use of parts of his designs that he had worked on.
And if he would be interested in any further involvment,with the use of his dealer network..And ask if his casting cost would be less cost than my foundrey. I suspect this is why this head/manifold project was started after David D.reading the annoucement. To do another attact on Charles W.




The parent company is RBs PERFORMANCE TECH. And I can start
manufacturing any day I choose ,and pay cash. I have around
4 years in time ,$15000.00 in money, tooling invested . And it
no problem to throw another $25 to 30 grand at the project.

You may want to know if I will restart my project. Yes ,just to
let Dalke now how a freindly buisness investment back
stabbing feels, by way of buisness competition



Thanks Randy

David Neibert
04-30-2007, 04:41 PM
The master heads , manifold, plenum,lost investments exist and ready
to cast.I have them setting in the shop.. And no pictures will never be
posted. So don't ask.

It was posted in the tec area that Charles Warner had been contacted.
For permission for the use of parts of his designs that he had worked on.
And if he would be interested in any further involvment,with the use of his dealer network..And ask if his casting cost would be less cost than my foundrey. I suspect this is why this head/manifold project was started after David D.reading the annoucement. To do another attact on Charles W.




The parent company is RBs PERFORMANCE TECH. And I can start
manufacturing any day I choose ,and pay cash. I have around
4 years in time ,$15000.00 in money, tooling invested . And it
no problem to throw another $25 to 30 grand at the project.

You may want to know if I will restart my project. Yes ,just to
let Dalke now how a freindly buisness investment back
stabbing feels, by way of buisness competition



Thanks Randy

Wow...I never even knew you were working on heads. I knew about the intake manifolds and the testing you performed ect...but this is first I've heard about heads.

David

XR7 Dave
04-30-2007, 05:22 PM
Backstabbing? Please.

Randy, in case you just weren't aware, Charles and I are working together on many projects and the last thing on my mind is an attack on his business. I helped bring the MPX to market by doing testing and it was my idea and urging that got the 10rib, 25% JS kit going. I assisted Charles with that design. Charles and I have talked about many products for the SC, an intake manifold being one of them. However, with the negative attitudes floating around it is questionable whether or not any of the new exciting products will make it to market.

By all means, if you can make a new cylinder head then do it! I know you have the money to fund it if you want to, but if all you want to do is spite me then keep in mind that you will be taking out your bitterness on the other members of this club as well.

Flex
04-30-2007, 05:59 PM
Wow, I am having trouble following the behind the scenes action on this. i thought this was one group with product to offer but it seems that there are actually two.

Randy,

If you already have all the "prototypes" developed and have a foundry then why not put them into production and try to make some money? Why invest time, money and effort for nothing?


Dave,

I can see how you may feel that your efforts are unappreciated, but to doubt is human nature. You will remember that Thomas was one of Jesus' disciples and yet he still had to put his hand in Jesus side in order to believe.

Keeping discussions in the back rooms and private forums never wins causes but usually adds more suspicion and doubt. Let the critics rave bro, and let your product vindicate your effort once completed.

XR7 Dave
04-30-2007, 06:51 PM
It was posted in the tec area that Charles Warner had been contacted.
For permission for the use of parts of his designs that he had worked on.
And if he would be interested in any further involvment,with the use of his dealer network..And ask if his casting cost would be less cost than my foundrey. I suspect this is why this head/manifold project was started after David D.reading the annoucement. To do another attact on Charles W.

You may want to know if I will restart my project. Yes ,just to
let Dalke now how a freindly buisness investment back
stabbing feels, by way of buisness competition.

Thanks Randy

I feel sorry for you as you are a bitter man, just like Victor. I have never done anything to either of you yet you both have angry feelings towards me. Charles and I are friends and we are working on things together. Charles and I have had misunderstandings and dissagreements in the past but we have been mature enough to resolve those issues in private. To even suggest that this cylinder head project is an attempt to attack Charles Warner is absurd.

This cylinder head idea is one that was initiated in casual discussions over time with other SC enthusiasts at various SC meets and grew to an actual project as a direct result of Casey providing the contact to a reputable, long established cylinder head company with expertise in the field of extreme high performance engines and cylinder head design. It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else who has ever been in involved in SC's in any way shape or form.

I have never started anything to spite anyone or cause anyone trouble and I have offered to help you personally with anything I can on anything you wanted but you always turn me away and then say how I didn't do you right. How many other people would take the time at 2:30am to tune your car for the race the next day and not even charge you anything only to have you accuse me of detuning your car later? And I'd do it again if you asked me to.

David Neibert
04-30-2007, 10:51 PM
However, with the negative attitudes floating around it is questionable whether or not any of the new exciting products will make it to market.


Dave,

I hope you didn't take my comments as negative, because I would very much like to see this project get off the ground. BTW, I'm still in for a set. That is part of the problem...it's difficult to plan future mods if I don't know if and when the heads will be made.

David

XR7 Dave
05-01-2007, 08:31 AM
Dave,

I hope you didn't take my comments as negative, because I would very much like to see this project get off the ground. BTW, I'm still in for a set. That is part of the problem...it's difficult to plan future mods if I don't know if and when the heads will be made.

David

I do not find your comments or questions to be negative. My suggestion to everyone is to continue with existing plans. There is no drawback to using existing hardware to it's maximum potential. There was a day when people scoffed at me for claiming to make 300rwhp. Then there was a day when people said it was impossible for Jim to run 11's on the parts he had. Then we made 440rwhp with Gary's car and he quit the SC thing thinking that there was nowhere left to go. Now you have reached another rung in the ladder and people are tempted to think there is nowhere to go from there.

I am not convinced that we have reached the end of any road yet. I think instead some people have quit trying. If a new cylinder head becomes available it will be a weekend swap away from improving what you already have. It will not require a change of direction nor will it make planning future performance mods difficult at all so I say keep on going with your existing plans. That is what I am doing.

When the timing is right, the project will move forward.

Randy N Connie
05-01-2007, 11:03 AM
I have no need to even think about tring to defend myself.
So I don't know why I am even responding.

I have been totaly straight up about the path I am on.
I am following my companies long term plan. I have been
altering or scratch building heads ,valve train,intake systems
for getting close to 40 years.

I am not totaly ready to pore.I still need to perfect locating pins
for the water jacket mold peices. That will take maybe a day
or two worth of work.

Writing posts that contain my observation of the happinings
on this board. Are just that, observations .Its has been
standard quo to kill any and all projects that I and other fabbers
have tried to produce. Am I a bitter person,Some. BUT I due feel
sorry for SCers as a group. Because of the lack of parts being
made. Because of a very small group of control freaks that
attack projects just to feed there egos. Then do not have
the knowlege, tooling or money to follow up.

Dave D. Please do not compair me to Victor, I do not attack
others because they are working on projects. Victor use
to try to put me down when he first came around. You
in the past have been doing the same to others.Your the one
that acts & sounds like victor.You don't like Victor because of
your attacts, to him have not ran him off from the SC buisness.

Dave D. since you are unhappy about having competition for
sales of heads/manifolds.And you have no idea of what performance
level of heads I have been working on. I think you knew
what I was doing.By are conversation and by reading my posts
over the last few years.The only thing that you have accomplish,
is making me try that much harder to produce the very best I can.
I will not realease the parts that I have develop. I will just
show up at the track being the best I can be with them.

So this is my new announcement, that I have made for every
part that I have developed for SCs in the past 5 years or so.
I WILL NOT PRODUCE ANY NEW HEAD CASTINGS....
To sell to all SCers . But I will produce a pair of heads for myself.
And sell or give away to my best SC freinds.I am able to get
castings built, one pair to 100 pairs If I so choose.


I have always and will always voice my feelings when I feel
like I get my toes jumped on .Some times I wait a year
or two to do so (timing). I really do not care who likes it
or who do's not like it. I must amit ,I am holding back
trying to be nice. So at this time I will not respond to,
with my observations of some of the subjects you
have drug-up.

And my final statment. And the reason I made a
post on this thread. I beleive You were aware that
I was working on this project. I beleive that any investors
that your trying to obtain should have been made aware
of my project.

So they donot need to worry. I no longer have any
type intent to produce my superior head package
to the masses. So Dave you can pull your panties
out of your crack now. I will just use this project
for a tax write off.


Randy

XR7 Dave
05-01-2007, 11:41 AM
I have no need to even think about tring to defend myself.
So I don't know why I am even responding.

I have been totaly straight up about the path I am on.
I am following my companies long term plan. I have been
altering or scratch building heads ,valve train,intake systems
for getting close to 40 years.

I am not totaly ready to pore.I still need to perfect locating pins
for the water jacket mold peices. That will take maybe a day
or two worth of work.

Writing posts that contain my observation of the happinings
on this board. Are just that, observations .Its has been
standard quo to kill any and all projects that I and other fabbers
have tried to produce. Am I a bitter person,Some. BUT I due feel
sorry for SCers as a group. Because of the lack of parts being
made. Because of a very small group of control freaks that
attack projects just to feed there egos. Then do not have
the knowlege, tooling or money to follow up.

Dave D. Please do not compair me to Victor, I do not attack
others because they are working on projects. Victor use
to try to put me down when he first came around. You
in the past have been doing the same to others.Your the one
that acts & sounds like victor.You don't like Victor because of
your attacts, to him have not ran him off from the SC buisness.

Dave D. since you are unhappy about having competition for
sales of heads/manifolds.And you have no idea of what performance
level of heads I have been working on. I think you knew
what I was doing.By are conversation and by reading my posts
over the last few years.The only thing that you have accomplish,
is making me try that much harder to produce the very best I can.
I will not realease the parts that I have develop. I will just
show up at the track being the best I can be with them.

So this is my new announcement, that I have made for every
part that I have developed for SCs in the past 5 years or so.
I WILL NOT PRODUCE ANY NEW HEAD CASTINGS....
To sell to all SCers . But I will produce a pair of heads for myself.
And sell or give away to my best SC freinds.I am able to get
castings built, one pair to 100 pairs If I so choose.


I have always and will always voice my feelings when I feel
like I get my toes jumped on .Some times I wait a year
or two to do so (timing). I really do not care who likes it
or who do's not like it. I must amit ,I am holding back
trying to be nice. So at this time I will not respond to,
with my observations of some of the subjects you
have drug-up.

And my final statment. And the reason I made a
post on this thread. I beleive You were aware that
I was working on this project. I beleive that any investors
that your trying to obtain should have been made aware
of my project.

So they donot need to worry. I no longer have any
type intent to produce my superior head package
to the masses. So Dave you can pull your panties
out of your crack now. I will just use this project
for a tax write off.


Randy

:confused:

fturner
05-01-2007, 01:44 PM
WOW!!!! Me tinks a few chains got rattled this time round........:eek:

Ok, now this is when everyone is suppose to holler out....

GROUP HUG????????

Micahdogg
05-01-2007, 03:11 PM
Time is money. And for people to chime in this thread with no intentions of supporting this venture with their own money......all you are doing is wasting time. AKA, wasting other peoples money. You would be better off chatting elsewhere.

I would be willing to give $100 toward this project. Just give away. I know it's probably not going to amount to a hill of beans, but it's a start. And if 50 other people gave $100, I would begin to add up. I could very easily be talked into just buying a set for $2500. So if some of you insist on chiming in with your bits of wisdom, it would help considerably if you put your money where your mouth is.

Ira R.
05-01-2007, 03:39 PM
Time is money. And for people to chime in this thread with no intentions of supporting this venture with their own money......all you are doing is wasting time. AKA, wasting other peoples money. You would be better off chatting elsewhere.

I would be willing to give $100 toward this project. Just give away. I know it's probably not going to amount to a hill of beans, but it's a start. And if 50 other people gave $100, I would begin to add up. I could very easily be talked into just buying a set for $2500. So if some of you insist on chiming in with your bits of wisdom, it would help considerably if you put your money where your mouth is.

What he said. And one more thing - if you don't have anything to add to the conversation, stop trying to tell everyone else here why it won't work. Just go away.

Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

Ira

joshbea6
05-01-2007, 03:47 PM
Earlier I posted that I was interested in helping to fund this project, but was never contacted about the opportunity...:confused:

Toms-SC
05-01-2007, 03:55 PM
-------------------

XxSlowpokexX
05-01-2007, 05:31 PM
What he said. And one more thing - if you don't have anything to add to the conversation, stop trying to tell everyone else here why it won't work. Just go away.

Not trying to cause trouble because people are usually misunderstood on an internet forum.

But I feel this post is all about what we expect out of a package/head/manifold or whatever it is. Along with that we may add why we feel something may or may not work. And to be more exacting. What we would want.

I personaly want a head that I can bolt on in place of my factory heads and use factory bolt down rockers. A casting can easily accept both stud mount and bolt down rockers. Changing valve placement will effect potential cam lift with stock pistons so that can be an issue. Raising the intake port may be ideal for performance but not so ideal for overall SC user functionality due to needing a new intake. Raising the exhaust port a tad can usually still retain the same header/manifold.

So an ideal racing head which may change intake and exhaust port heights, valve placement and require custom headers, intake and valve covers along with at the very min a set of pistons makes a 2,500 head purchase into a 10,000 build (conservatively). Of course a hood and some paint may be needed as well.

I still dont know what will be produced if anything but I have some requirements to purchase

1. Fit under a stock hood. Even if a new manifold needs to be purchased the combo fit under a stock hood.
2. Be able to work with the typical "520" lift cam without changing pistons.
3. Not require custom headers.
4. Choice of bolt down or pedastal mount rockers

Its a give and take scenario but will produce far more buyers then an all out race head package.

Now as a econd option an all out rac ehead with supporting hardware would be nice as well. But I;d really like something for a daily driver moreso

XR7 Dave
05-01-2007, 09:25 PM
I appreciate the input. People who are interested in helping to fund the project will be given that opportunity personally when the time comes. Just how and to what extent that assistance is needed has not been fully determined, nor has the feasibility of the entire project been fully assessed so for the mean time all we can do is wait. When the timing is right we will move forward.

David Neibert
05-01-2007, 10:48 PM
Not trying to cause trouble because people are usually misunderstood on an internet forum.

But I feel this post is all about what we expect out of a package/head/manifold or whatever it is. Along with that we may add why we feel something may or may not work. And to be more exacting. What we would want.

I personaly want a head that I can bolt on in place of my factory heads and use factory bolt down rockers. A casting can easily accept both stud mount and bolt down rockers. Changing valve placement will effect potential cam lift with stock pistons so that can be an issue. Raising the intake port may be ideal for performance but not so ideal for overall SC user functionality due to needing a new intake. Raising the exhaust port a tad can usually still retain the same header/manifold.

So an ideal racing head which may change intake and exhaust port heights, valve placement and require custom headers, intake and valve covers along with at the very min a set of pistons makes a 2,500 head purchase into a 10,000 build (conservatively). Of course a hood and some paint may be needed as well.

I still dont know what will be produced if anything but I have some requirements to purchase

1. Fit under a stock hood. Even if a new manifold needs to be purchased the combo fit under a stock hood.
2. Be able to work with the typical "520" lift cam without changing pistons.
3. Not require custom headers.
4. Choice of bolt down or pedastal mount rockers

Its a give and take scenario but will produce far more buyers then an all out race head package.

Now as a econd option an all out rac ehead with supporting hardware would be nice as well. But I;d really like something for a daily driver moreso

Damon,

It sounds like your describing the heads we already have.

David

CarlisleLandOwn
05-02-2007, 03:31 AM
So, is valve placement moved or is it still in the stock location? It can't be both. And just who is this cylinder head company?

XxSlowpokexX
05-02-2007, 08:57 AM
Damon,

It sounds like your describing the heads we already have.

David

Funny I can get numerous aftermarket SBF heads that fit that description and produce way more power potentially then a ported stocker.....So no not really.

But I'm glad thats how you see it....Because besides being a much better performer..It should be JUST LIKE what we have..That would be the greatest selling point bar none of these heads.

XxSlowpokexX
05-02-2007, 09:00 AM
And Jason...For some reason pitbull performance rings a bell but I am unsure.

old_coot
05-02-2007, 10:17 AM
I have no need to even think about tring to defend myself.
So I don't know why I am even responding.

I have been totaly straight up about the path I am on.
I am following my companies long term plan. I have been
altering or scratch building heads ,valve train,intake systems
for getting close to 40 years.

I am not totaly ready to pore.I still need to perfect locating pins
for the water jacket mold peices. That will take maybe a day
or two worth of work.

Writing posts that contain my observation of the happinings
on this board. Are just that, observations .Its has been
standard quo to kill any and all projects that I and other fabbers
have tried to produce. Am I a bitter person,Some. BUT I due feel
sorry for SCers as a group. Because of the lack of parts being
made. Because of a very small group of control freaks that
attack projects just to feed there egos. Then do not have
the knowlege, tooling or money to follow up.

Dave D. Please do not compair me to Victor, I do not attack
others because they are working on projects. Victor use
to try to put me down when he first came around. You
in the past have been doing the same to others.Your the one
that acts & sounds like victor.You don't like Victor because of
your attacts, to him have not ran him off from the SC buisness.

Dave D. since you are unhappy about having competition for
sales of heads/manifolds.And you have no idea of what performance
level of heads I have been working on. I think you knew
what I was doing.By are conversation and by reading my posts
over the last few years.The only thing that you have accomplish,
is making me try that much harder to produce the very best I can.
I will not realease the parts that I have develop. I will just
show up at the track being the best I can be with them.

So this is my new announcement, that I have made for every
part that I have developed for SCs in the past 5 years or so.
I WILL NOT PRODUCE ANY NEW HEAD CASTINGS....
To sell to all SCers . But I will produce a pair of heads for myself.
And sell or give away to my best SC freinds.I am able to get
castings built, one pair to 100 pairs If I so choose.


I have always and will always voice my feelings when I feel
like I get my toes jumped on .Some times I wait a year
or two to do so (timing). I really do not care who likes it
or who do's not like it. I must amit ,I am holding back
trying to be nice. So at this time I will not respond to,
with my observations of some of the subjects you
have drug-up.

And my final statment. And the reason I made a
post on this thread. I beleive You were aware that
I was working on this project. I beleive that any investors
that your trying to obtain should have been made aware
of my project.

So they donot need to worry. I no longer have any
type intent to produce my superior head package
to the masses. So Dave you can pull your panties
out of your crack now. I will just use this project
for a tax write off.


Randy

Back when I was a school kid and someone didn't get their way they would pick up their toys and run home with them---this seems like what I am reading here----Well Randy if thats how you want it , ok by me, but since you either can't or don't want to produce them for the rank and file members at SCCOA, why put down others efforts to, I don't understand. Oh and about showing up with a set of them---I got to say to that what I say to others I have raced in the past----DON'T SING IT----BRING IT

Micahdogg
05-02-2007, 11:39 AM
Not trying to cause trouble because people are usually misunderstood on an internet forum.

But I feel this post is all about what we expect out of a package/head/manifold or whatever it is. Along with that we may add why we feel something may or may not work. And to be more exacting. What we would want.

Ahem....the introductory post to this thread.....


I want to thank everyone for your participation in our previous poll and discussion regarding a new cylinder head for the SC. We have nailed down some specific details regarding this proposed new product and are ready to share some of the info with you.

For the most part the discussion of what to do, how to approach the project, what to expect, and what will sell the best, etc. is over. As I stated before the design details are best left to the pro's and our job was complete when we let them know what we thought we were looking for. Now it remains for us to drum up the support necessary to make it a reality.

CarlisleLandOwn
05-04-2007, 05:12 AM
So, anyone willing to start giving out specs on this head is it all hype and games of a NA head for a SC?

white95v6
03-06-2008, 12:35 PM
soo whats the word on these?

Toms-SC
03-06-2008, 01:38 PM
Not going to happen :)

kws6000
03-06-2008, 10:03 PM
soo whats the word on these?

half past never.

victor malvar
04-07-2008, 12:24 AM
HELLO ALL SC'RS WE WILL BRING OUR HEADS TO THE COMMUNITY AS SOON AS I FEEL BETTER. I JUST SAW THIS BS AND COULD NOT HELP BUT LAUGH :rolleyes:

WHERE HAVE ALL THE HEADS GONE?? NO WHERE AS I SEE IT. WE WILL JUST BRING THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON AND SELLING TO THOSE WHO HAVE WAITED AND APPRECIATE THE WORK, TIME AND R & D. THE PRICE WILL NOT BE $2500.00 OR EVEN CLOSE WE HAVE ABOUT 30 SETS WAITING TO BE FINISHED AS THE TIME AND $$ ALLOW. THERE WILL ALSO BE A CORE FEE OF $175.00.

IF I CONTINUE FEELING & GETTING BETTER. IT WILL POSSIBLY BE SOONER THAN WHAT I HAD HOPED IN MY LAST POST OVER A YEAR AGO. IT WAS TO HAVE TEN SETS PER MONTH. IT MAY JUST BE SOONER NOW!! WE WILL KEEP EVERYONE POSTED HERE OR AT OUR STORE.

OH BY THE WAY RANDY AND DAVE D. PLEASE DON'T COMPARE ME TO EITHER OF YOU!!! I DON'T DO IT TO EITHER OF YOU!!! SO STOP I APPRECIATED:o


CHEERS TO EVERYONE.....WE WILL BE BACK SOON HAVE A REAL NICE SPRING FOLKS!!

WWW.SPINNINGWHEELS-SC.COM

REGARDS,

VICTOR AND DIANE

David Neibert
04-07-2008, 12:31 AM
Victor,

Are these reworked stock heads or new castings ?

David

CMac89
04-07-2008, 12:58 AM
Our guy has enough interest, as an individual, to develop a new production head. Only catch being the design would be concentrated on the Mustang guys, which isn't a refutable option for an SC guy. The heads are virtually identical in each make/model, as many know.

Introducing the idea for SCs, and without the whereabouts of Mustangs, would put a complete void in possibilities. Nobody understands the mentality of an SC guy and why, if anyone with sanity, would spend money on something like this. We have made it apparent to him, though. The more motors that can use these heads, the more potential sales. This is what has interested him. If he could sell 50, or more sets, it is worth it. Personally, between Mustangs, SCs, and whoever else uses these motors,there would be a couple hundred or more sets sold. Not everyone that has these cars use the forums.

Other head productions for various customers has created a dam for this project to commence. By the end of the summer, we will start looking into complete depth of details, design, and interest, for a winter project. That is; if rich people don't slap 50K on his table for another project, which is likely.

Time is all it ever takes.

victor malvar
04-07-2008, 01:55 AM
Victor,

Are these reworked stock heads or new castings ?

David

Hi David N.

Hope you and your family are doing real good!!

Stock reworked heads. Does the name Jason ring a bell??

I plan to do something with him as well as a very good associate in California. We sent him a set Friday. He is looking at some new findings he is working on.
As soon as I have all the Ducks back in order....I will post more and as needed only.

Nice to hear from you:):cool:

Victor.....

David Neibert
04-07-2008, 11:57 AM
Hi David N.

Hope you and your family are doing real good!!

Stock reworked heads. Does the name Jason ring a bell??

I plan to do something with him as well as a very good associate in California. We sent him a set Friday. He is looking at some new findings he is working on.
As soon as I have all the Ducks back in order....I will post more and as needed only.

Nice to hear from you:):cool:

Victor.....

Victor,

This thread is about having aftermarket heads built from new castings, that have thicker decks and several other things that are not possible when reworking stock heads. There are already a few places offering ported SC heads, and having an additional vendor for them, doesn't apply to what we are discussing in this thread.

I know several people named Jason, but none of them come to mind when thinking about cylinder heads. If your talking about Jason King, your sales are likey to suffer just from his association with the product.

David

kws6000
04-07-2008, 03:05 PM
Our guy has enough interest, as an individual, to develop a new production head. Only catch being the design would be concentrated on the Mustang guys, which isn't a refutable option for an SC guy. The heads are virtually identical in each make/model, as many know.

Introducing the idea for SCs, and without the whereabouts of Mustangs, would put a complete void in possibilities. Nobody understands the mentality of an SC guy and why, if anyone with sanity, would spend money on something like this. We have made it apparent to him, though. The more motors that can use these heads, the more potential sales. This is what has interested him. If he could sell 50, or more sets, it is worth it. Personally, between Mustangs, SCs, and whoever else uses these motors,there would be a couple hundred or more sets sold. Not everyone that has these cars use the forums.

Other head productions for various customers has created a dam for this project to commence. By the end of the summer, we will start looking into complete depth of details, design, and interest, for a winter project. That is; if rich people don't slap 50K on his table for another project, which is likely.

Time is all it ever takes.

Ill remain a sceptic until new production head castings are being installed on peoples cars.

Ive seen this happen too many times in the past where nothing happens with products that are supposed to be produced in the future.

XxSlowpokexX
04-07-2008, 03:12 PM
I'd buy em just to say I had em on my car :eek:

victor malvar
04-07-2008, 08:41 PM
I'd buy em just to say I had em on my car :eek:

Hi Damon,

No I'm not talking about Jason King if that is what your implying. I also did not read that these were NEW POWER HEADS. Mine are just stock heads done with a good port and polish plus stock or oversized valves etc.

I'll talk with you later. Thanks Damon.....

Victor....

victor malvar
04-07-2008, 08:51 PM
Victor,

This thread is about having aftermarket heads built from new castings, that have thicker decks and several other things that are not possible when reworking stock heads. There are already a few places offering ported SC heads, and having an additional vendor for them, doesn't apply to what we are discussing in this thread.

I know several people named Jason, but none of them come to mind when thinking about cylinder heads. If your talking about Jason King, your sales are likey to suffer just from his association with the product.

David

Hi David, Sorry It has been awhile since I have been here to the forums. I was just looking around and read some BS that sounded a little old but I should have looked at the whole thread....you know me I'm always on the wrong thread talking about another thread!!! Thanks and take care. David :D:D:D:confused::)

David Neibert
04-07-2008, 10:44 PM
Hi David, Sorry It has been awhile since I have been here to the forums. I was just looking around and read some BS that sounded a little old but I should have looked at the whole thread....you know me I'm always on the wrong thread talking about another thread!!! Thanks and take care. David :D:D:D:confused::)

Victor,

Yes it sure has been a while...hope you and Diane are doing well too. I'm still holding out hope that one day we will get some new heads, but if it doesn't happen soon I may have to look for a 4.5 SVO motor instead.

David

rapper33142
10-24-2009, 09:06 AM
It is now 2009 what happen with the heads

90blkbrd
10-24-2009, 10:35 AM
It is now 2009 what happen with the heads

Same thing as discussed in this thread. No one has $10k to fund starting this.

CMac89
10-24-2009, 10:40 AM
I have been talking with the pattern specialist about the project. My Pontiac stuff got in the way since he has spent most of his time on that, for the past few years. All he needs to do is make a pattern for the Pontiac intake manifold and he's done.

There will be more details about it over the winter. Agreeing to do the heads is different than coming up with funds for the cost. He himself stated he does not know what he would charge me (us) for the pattern/casting work.

XR7 Dave
10-24-2009, 03:32 PM
Same thing as discussed in this thread. No one has $10k to fund starting this.

If it were only $10K we would have had heads years ago. The cost is a lot more than $10K but as Casey said, there are other things to consider as well.

rapper33142
11-02-2009, 02:09 PM
Well I'm new to the forms I think any new parts that can help this car should be made. Intake and head would be great. I don't know how many members we have in all but if we all put in a Lil maybe we can get things going. And it can be a good thing for everybody from the track guy to the DD guy.

kws6000
11-02-2009, 02:39 PM
Well I'm new to the forms I think any new parts that can help this car should be made. Intake and head would be great. I don't know how many members we have in all but if we all put in a Lil maybe we can get things going. And it can be a good thing for everybody from the track guy to the DD guy.

With the limited number of members who actually have any money and would actually buy the heads/intake,you would likely be looking at $4000-$5000 for the combo...Are you willing to pay that?

rapper33142
11-02-2009, 03:07 PM
if it got me in the ten or high 9 yes but that's is a lot of money to pay I can afford it now but u can bet I will save for it or buy it tax time. just because I love this car

rapper33142
11-02-2009, 03:16 PM
If all the members put in $50 we could get them made right

seawalkersee
11-02-2009, 03:30 PM
If only it was that easy. I would have covered 10 people without blinking.

SWS

rapper33142
11-02-2009, 03:47 PM
We need more ppl like u and I wood put in a Lil more to . But we need to do something to get things moving

427Cammer
11-02-2009, 05:50 PM
As has been discussed in a previous thread (or much further back in this thread, can't recall) the issue is not merely the design of a "better head and intake manifold," but ALSO a packaging issue with regards to the potential for hood clearance problems caused by non-factory heads/intake sitting up HIGHER on the short-block, and causing interference with the factory hood-line.

How many folks wish to give up their factory hoods, in favor of a bubbled hood that can properly clear the non-factory head/intake combo?

Is it possible to sit the motor down further into the chassis (modify the K-frame and/or motor mounts?), thereby providing an additional inch or three overhead, and allowing a non-factory head/intake to clear the factory hood-line? What about transmission bell housing and oil pan-to-road clearance issues? Dry-sump oil pan that does not have a low-hanging sump bulge/hump?


Cammer

BLOWN38
11-02-2009, 06:19 PM
Oh snap we gettin heads made.... I'M IN!!!!!!:cool::D:eek: Put me first on the list... PLEASE!!!

Toms-SC
11-02-2009, 06:31 PM
but ALSO a packaging issue with regards to the potential for hood clearance problems caused by non-factory heads/intake sitting up HIGHER on the short-block, and causing interference with the factory hood-line.

Cammer

Can't have it all. Want a raised intake manifold? You need a raised hood. Just take a look at the nightmare MP Intake Manifold thread.

David Neibert
11-02-2009, 06:56 PM
If all the members put in $50 we could get them made right

We need about $50K front money...then more for the actual products.

If most of the people posting here won't even pay $15 to be a member, why do you think they would pay $50 for something they may or may not get a benifit from ?

David

bowez
11-02-2009, 07:36 PM
The only way this will happen is if we carried along on the coat tails of the Mustang crowd, and I'm not exactly sure if most at V6power are even aware of this project.

CMac89
11-02-2009, 08:18 PM
The only way this will happen is if we carried along on the coat tails of the Mustang crowd, and I'm not exactly sure if most at V6power are even aware of this project.

They were alerted that we (Dave and I) were working on it. There is a thread over at v6power.net about it. Whether or not they are consciously aware of it, or not, I'm not sure of, but they remember it.

David, he says he isn't sure what he'll charge us. He has a lot of the materials for water jackets (Grand National patterns) and intake/exhaust runner configurations (SBC). The project doesn't seem to have the need for starting from scratch.

Regardless of what the heads cost, the intake will still be 10K by itself.

Roadhawg
11-02-2009, 08:33 PM
They were alerted that we (Dave and I) were working on it. There is a thread over at v6power.net about it. Whether or not they are consciously aware of it, or not, I'm not sure of, but they remember it.

I think this has fallen off the Radar, on the V6power boards.

rapper33142
11-02-2009, 09:46 PM
We need to get someone to post a new one about the project

Roadhawg
11-02-2009, 10:04 PM
We need to get someone to post a new one about the project

Well this project has sort of stalled.
In fact when this originally started I thought the best route, would be a set of heads that where bolt on replacements. I now think the heads should have even intake port spacing, which would also require a new intake.

kws6000
11-02-2009, 10:04 PM
We need to get someone to post a new one about the project

What project?..This will happen a half past never.

rapper33142
11-02-2009, 10:27 PM
New heads for the v6 motor and if we all come together for this we can make it Happen. I love these car and it sad to see that ppl can't put $50 in for something that will help us all we spend more money then that on nothing we just need to get ppl interested . and as for the intake it does not have to be that thick maybe half a inch more will do

427Cammer
11-03-2009, 12:11 AM
This has likely been discussed before, but this thread seems to be an appropriate place to ask the question --

I am familiar with the 1989-90 3.0 V-6 SHO motor, in the sense that my brother owns one of these cars -- the induction system (heads, intake manifold) were designed by Yamaha for Ford, and feature a two-stage runner design (short and long tube intake runners, one set of long/short, each, per cylinder) and dual-overhead camshafts topping each head. His SHO motor is modified, and I know that he can easily bend the tach around to 7500+ RPM, though IIRC he shifts at around 7000+ RPM or thereabouts -- the SHO Yamaha induction system breathes VERY deep and freely, and he has surprised more than a few fire-breathing V-8s when stomping the gas pedal from a roll-start.

What, if anything, could be done to adapt the 3.0 V-6 SHO Yamaha heads to our 3.8 V-6 motors -- perhaps with some tweaking, coolant passages and/or other alignment points could be adapted over? Do the head bolt holes even align the same? Coolant passages need to be opened up on the SHO head or 3.8 block? Is there a deck height difference (likely) that causes an issue? Chamber size of SHO-Yamaha head vs 3.8 piston dome height/compression concerns? I know that the SHO computer controls when the dual-stage intake runners switch over from long runner (for low end torque) to short runner (for high RPM blast) at around 4200 RPM -- that would have to be considered, should the SHO intake manifold be used.

Long shot, likely -- curious what the details pro/con are with this swap.


Scott

CMac89
11-03-2009, 12:53 AM
That's off topic, really. I suggest starting another thread for that, por favor.

Greg Coleman
11-03-2009, 07:44 AM
The HEMI head design!:D:D

pro street rich
11-03-2009, 11:06 AM
[QUOTE=427Cammer;849466]

Is it possible to sit the motor down further into the chassis (modify the K-frame and/or motor mounts?), thereby providing an additional inch or three overhead, and allowing a non-factory head/intake to clear the factory hood-line? What about transmission bell housing and oil pan-to-road clearance issues? Dry-sump oil pan that does not have a low-hanging sump bulge/hump?

I had "AJE" build me a "K" member that dropped the engine down 1 1/2 " on one of my cars. THey said that this was the max that could be dropped. Keep in mind that when you drop the cross member you are also dropping the steering rack. This is where the trouble comes into play. You have to run a set of "bumb stops" in your steering linkage to offset the drop in the rack. The max you can run is 1 1/2 " and still have a car that will steer correct. Just some more food to think on with this idea. Also keep in mind that the Cobra "R" hood gives you about 2 1/2 to 3" of room. Now if you know a GOOD body guy he can add some more to it and still keep it looking like a stocker "R" hood. This can be done by adding to the outside lift on the hood. These hoods have that first lift, then give the big lift in the middle of the hood. You could step up that first raise by 1/2 inch and sloop the second flat to give you another 1/2" or so. This would give you over 4" of lift, but still look normal. The "DOT" says in most states that you can only go up 3" but if you do it right it will pass inspection as the big lift will be the one they check. Now if the hood is already raised before big lift they won't even look at it, as long as you don't get too crazy.....Rich

seawalkersee
11-03-2009, 02:53 PM
Regardless of what the heads cost, the intake will still be 10K by itself.

Errrrrrrrrrccchhhhh...Back the truck up...Is that "start to assy" or customer cost? If it is customer cost, I am OUT. I can buy a car as fast as I can make this one if I am going to have to spend an additional 20K just for the heads/intake. Now, if it was a COMPLETE upper setup for about 10k, I can see me stepping up for that.


SWS

Toms-SC
11-03-2009, 03:09 PM
New heads for the v6 motor and if we all come together for this we can make it Happen. I love these car and it sad to see that ppl can't put $50 in for something that will help us all we spend more money then that on nothing we just need to get ppl interested . and as for the intake it does not have to be that thick maybe half a inch more will do

What makes you think that $50 will be enough for people to put in to make this happen?

CMac89
11-03-2009, 04:47 PM
Errrrrrrrrrccchhhhh...Back the truck up...Is that "start to assy" or customer cost? If it is customer cost, I am OUT. I can buy a car as fast as I can make this one if I am going to have to spend an additional 20K just for the heads/intake. Now, if it was a COMPLETE upper setup for about 10k, I can see me stepping up for that.


SWS

You're silly, Chris. http://www.modularfords.com/forums/images/smilies/bottom.gif

That's the cost for the pattern work, tooling, casting, and machining. Customer cost wouldn't come anywhere close to manufacturing costs.

XxSlowpokexX
11-03-2009, 05:57 PM
I personally wouldnt buy a head intake package that wouldnt allow me to bolt on a stock m90, mpx or whatever

Head wise I wouldnt buy anything that wouldnt allow a stock intake/ SC setup to bolt on...Thats just how I roll. I liek my lil v6..But not that much

Its like me buying yates heads for my SBF..Not happening.

I could see however a raised exhaust port as anyone buying aftermarket heads should have some sort of a full exhaust upgrade

CMac89
11-03-2009, 06:20 PM
Those details will be worked out. We can build an M90 intake manifold, since retrofitting an AR to it is doable. Whatever material needs removed or added to a stock intake can be massaged pretty easily into/out of the pattern work.

The intake is the last of the worries right now, since it's application specific. The heads are first priority.

frdlvr30
11-03-2009, 07:54 PM
What, if anything, could be done to adapt the 3.0 V-6 SHO Yamaha heads to our 3.8 V-6 motors -- perhaps with some tweaking, coolant passages and/or other alignment points could be adapted over? Do the head bolt holes even align the same? Coolant passages need to be opened up on the SHO head or 3.8 block? Is there a deck height difference (likely) that causes an issue?
Long shot, likely -- curious what the details pro/con are with this swap.


Scott

Im extremely familiar with both the 3.0L and 3.2L SHO engines. Along with the later 3.4L V8 SHO engine. None of this is even close to possible or worth being discussed in this thread my friend....Two completely different animals...DOHC vs. OHV.

Slysc
11-03-2009, 08:13 PM
I've got a data file of a 3.8 split port head.
A friend of mine did a cat scan of my casting using layers .5mm thick.
It is currently an 500 MB "stl" file which is a stereolith file but I can get it translated into IGES or CATIA or UNIGRAPHIX or whatever quite easily which would be a 3d surfaced model.

I will be working on modifying the ports, water passages, deck thicknessses, etc. in the model to make it into the aftermarket SC head that everyone is dreaming of.

It's a step in the right direction eh?

rapper33142
11-03-2009, 08:18 PM
What makes you think that $50 will be enough for people to put in to make this happen?

maybe that can get the heads started

bowez
11-03-2009, 09:10 PM
I've got a data file of a 3.8 split port head.
A friend of mine did a cat scan of my casting using layers .5mm thick.
It is currently an 500 MB "stl" file which is a stereolith file but I can get it translated into IGES or CATIA or UNIGRAPHIX or whatever quite easily which would be a 3d surfaced model.

I will be working on modifying the ports, water passages, deck thicknessses, etc. in the model to make it into the aftermarket SC head that everyone is dreaming of.

It's a step in the right direction eh?
The one I'm dreaming of would be Direct Injected. I know dreaming.

XxSlowpokexX
11-04-2009, 12:12 PM
Actually.

May be worth talking to Dan if he has done that type of work upfront.

If you could do a splitport head with an m90 pancake type intake allowing the use of lets say AR and m90 setups currently out there..That would be GREAT FOR US.

I still think a nice aftermarket single port head that can use a factory type intake would potentionally cater to many more people thus reducing overall costs in the end

rapper33142
11-04-2009, 12:21 PM
The one I'm dreaming of would be Direct Injected. I know dreaming.

That would be nice

XxSlowpokexX
05-11-2013, 01:11 AM
bow chicka bow bow

SCDan35thANV
05-11-2013, 01:06 PM
I would be in even if I had to use a cowl hood since plan on going that route anyways:p

90tbirdsc
05-22-2013, 02:48 AM
I don't care how/if it fits under any hood out there. if there is big gains then I will worry about covering the motor later :)