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SVT_BIRDSC
03-06-2007, 04:16 PM
anyone kno were to get one

nickleman60
03-06-2007, 04:19 PM
dave dalke, aka xr7dave

SVT_BIRDSC
03-06-2007, 04:22 PM
How much will it cost and how do i get in touch with him

thunderkid84
03-06-2007, 04:42 PM
send a private message to XR7DAVE and ask him how much.

ur gonna run when u hear how much :eek: , but its by far the best "bang for the buck" mod.

SRT-4
03-06-2007, 04:46 PM
I have been told they are $2,500-$3,000

Randy N Connie
03-06-2007, 05:39 PM
I have been told they are $2,500-$3,000

I forgot right off hand how much my A/R cost.
It was more than listed above.I ordered one
that was polished,That was an extra $500.00.
I polished The plenum ,$ 150.00. The blower kit
came with a modified fuel rail, jackshaft pulley,
brass fittings, allen bolts, SCT chip, it was a
well thought out blower kit with just about
every thing you need for the A/R blower swap.

I had not been able to install mine when I first
received it,sick,. I have had it for less than two years.
I now don't have the money or dyno/tuner in my area
to get a tune. If I could do the A/R blower install.

And I may need bigger injectors than the #42
I am running now. Because I have a MP 85mm TB,
C&L tuner MAF, 3.5 cold air tube to install with
the A/R blower. And every part has been polished
or chrome.

All the parts Dave made for my A/R blower kit look
great.

Randy

David Neibert
03-06-2007, 05:41 PM
Randy,

Are you thinking about selling your kit ?

David

Mike8675309
03-06-2007, 09:49 PM
See this thread for his contact information
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79678&highlight=autorotor

XxSlowpokexX
03-06-2007, 10:43 PM
I believe last time mentioned the kit was closer to $3,000 however it may now use the 2.0 AR not teh 1.7. Just contact him as mentioned above

XR7 Dave
03-06-2007, 11:17 PM
I believe last time mentioned the kit was closer to $3,000 however it may now use the 2.0 AR not teh 1.7. Just contact him as mentioned above

And the cost has risen significantly since then. AR has increased their prices by over 20% for 2007.

Mike8675309
03-06-2007, 11:30 PM
you're ears must have been ringing.

But you got the ones for the program shipped to you before then...right?

FineLineMtrSprt
03-06-2007, 11:46 PM
Why is it so much...i wish Kenne Bell offered a blower for the 3.8. Hmmmm I wonder if Stiegemeier does SC blower porting.

XR7 Dave
03-07-2007, 12:08 AM
you're ears must have been ringing.

But you got the ones for the program shipped to you before then...right?

No, but they are here now. Your prices are already set so the only thing that happened there is my hourly rate went down. There are many things that will be affecting the future of the twin screw in respect to the SC. It's too early to really comment.

Why would anyone want a Steigemeier ported M90 even if he did them? Magnum Powers already has the T-bird version of the M90 nailed. Just get ahold of Charles.

I asked Kenne Bell several years ago to make a kit for the SC. I even offered to do the R&D for them but they weren't interested.

Why is it so much you ask? Perhaps you should take a look at the cost of a KB kit.....They START at $3000 and go up from there.

FineLineMtrSprt
03-07-2007, 12:12 AM
OK cool...i didnt know that. Its a mod thats pretty far down the road for me anyway.

racecougar
03-07-2007, 08:19 AM
Why is it so much you ask? Perhaps you should take a look at the cost of a KB kit.....They START at $3000 and go up from there.

Exactly what I was going to point out. If KB did make a kit for the SC, you can bet it wouldn't be cheaper.

-Rod

Randy N Connie
03-07-2007, 10:47 AM
Randy,

Are you thinking about selling your kit ?

David

David N.

I do not think anyone would pay near what I have in the
blower with related parts. I dout that a SC person would
even give me the price of the polishing, or porting of a
A/R blower. I am looking at having the A/R blower ported by KB.
I am sure that I will own the most costly A/R that has
been built by Dave D. for a SC-Bird. Its no longer a standard
A/R 1.7 blower kit that Dave sold to others.

I look to have $6000.00 in it maybe more,not sure yet.
I bought it for another motor that I had been collecting parts for.
Every part has been finish with a high polish. Parts
include K&N air filter, C&L 85MM tuner, 3.5 chrome cold-air tube,
MP 85mm TB, 1.7 A/R blower, blower intake plenum, custom blower hat,
larger intake manifold plenum, raised intake manifold, blower pulley,
jackshaft pulley, modified fuel rail, innovate LM-2, SCT Racers
tuning harware, Dell laptop computor, etc. And the A/R has
the updated breather system that KB uses.
(NO HOSES OR AIRTANK ON SIDE OF BLOWER)
So I do not think anyone will want to pay what the blower kit I
have is worth. As I am sure it will be the best performing 1.7
A/R blower that Dave has put out.

And if I would sell it, Kurt K., Tony, have asked to buy so they
would be first on the list if I do sell. I am sure they both are no
longer interrested. As they most likley purchased a 2.0 A/R from
Dave D.. I think that a ported 1.7 may perform just as well as
as stock ported 2.0 A/R in different RPM ranges.

Thanks Randy

XxSlowpokexX
03-07-2007, 11:00 AM
Exactly what I was going to point out. If KB did make a kit for the SC, you can bet it wouldn't be cheaper.


Regardless of how much it cost him to produce it most likely wouldnt be sheaper..Its a shame they never wanted to do anything but what are ya gunan do..Just as an example swapping out an o3/04 cobra blower with the Kenne bell 2.6L A/R (14-24 PSI) will run you 3,899 bucks. In that form the kit will include a switch chip, boost a pump, Inlet and all the other stuff to make it work. You can minus $550 from the price if you get rid of the switch chip and boost a pump still bringing the price in at $3,349..And this is direct from Kenne Bell...So Dave has priced the kit to be comparable to what kenne bell would offer price wise if he were ever to make a kit

XR7 Dave
03-07-2007, 11:13 AM
Regardless of how much it cost him to produce it most likely wouldnt be sheaper..Its a shame they never wanted to do anything but what are ya gunan do..Just as an example swapping out an o3/04 cobra blower with the Kenne bell 2.6L A/R (14-24 PSI) will run you 3,899 bucks. In that form the kit will include a switch chip, boost a pump, Inlet and all the other stuff to make it work. You can minus $550 from the price if you get rid of the switch chip and boost a pump still bringing the price in at $3,349..And this is direct from Kenne Bell...So Dave has priced the kit to be comparable to what kenne bell would offer price wise if he were ever to make a kit

The sad thing is that at the same price KB is making a ton more money. His acquisition is so much lower it's ridiculous.

Toms-SC
03-07-2007, 11:17 AM
You mean, it's like not $200? Oh dang! :rolleyes:

David Neibert
03-07-2007, 12:18 PM
David N.

I do not think anyone would pay near what I have in the
blower with related parts. I dout that a SC person would
even give me the price of the polishing, or porting of a
A/R blower. I am looking at having the A/R blower ported by KB.
I am sure that I will own the most costly A/R that has
been built by Dave D. for a SC-Bird. Its no longer a standard
A/R 1.7 blower kit that Dave sold to others.

I look to have $6000.00 in it maybe more,not sure yet.
I bought it for another motor that I had been collecting parts for.
Every part has been finish with a high polish. Parts
include K&N air filter, C&L 85MM tuner, 3.5 chrome cold-air tube,
MP 85mm TB, 1.7 A/R blower, blower intake plenum, custom blower hat,
larger intake manifold plenum, raised intake manifold, blower pulley,
jackshaft pulley, modified fuel rail, innovate LM-2, SCT Racers
tuning harware, Dell laptop computor, etc. And the A/R has
the updated breather system that KB uses.
(NO HOSES OR AIRTANK ON SIDE OF BLOWER)
So I do not think anyone will want to pay what the blower kit I
have is worth. As I am sure it will be the best performing 1.7
A/R blower that Dave has put out.

And if I would sell it, Kurt K., Tony, have asked to buy so they
would be first on the list if I do sell. I am sure they both are no
longer interrested. As they most likley purchased a 2.0 A/R from
Dave D.. I think that a ported 1.7 may perform just as well as
as stock ported 2.0 A/R in different RPM ranges.

Thanks Randy

Randy,

I'm sure there is someone who would be willing to take it off your hands, if you really want to sell it.

If the tuning is your main hang-up with the install of the kit, I would be willing to trailer the car up to Dave's place to get that taken care of. Once it's tuned you can handle tweaks thru e-mail. Just hate to see all that go-fast hardware gathering dust, when it could be used to make your car one of the fastest in the club.

David

Randy N Connie
03-07-2007, 12:38 PM
Randy,

I'm sure there is someone who would be willing to take it off your hands, if you really want to sell it.

If the tuning is your main hang-up with the install of the kit, I would be willing to trailer the car up to Dave's place to get that taken care of. Once it's tuned you can handle tweaks thru e-mail. Just hate to see all that go-fast hardware gathering dust, when it could be used to make your car one of the fastest in the club.

David

DAVID N.

Thats a great offer,Thank you very much. But I can't travel that far
or afford it right now.

Here is a picture that you and Dave D. may be have interest in.

David Neibert
03-07-2007, 01:43 PM
DAVID N.

Thats a great offer,Thank you very much. But I can't travel that far
or afford it right now.

Here is a picture that you and Dave D. may be have interest in.

Randy,

Is that a picture of the new KB big bore 2.1 that is supposed to be a direct replacement for the 1.7 AR ? Since reading about the 2.1 in the most recent issue of MM&FF, I've been wondering what it would take to make the swap.

David

XR7 Dave
03-07-2007, 02:21 PM
That is definitely a big bore unit but I can't tell what displacement it is. Unfortunately getting technical data from AR is just about impossible. Only way to really find out how it will work would be to simply purchase one. That is what I've had to do in each case.

Nettlesd
03-07-2007, 02:35 PM
David,

From my understanding of the newer blowers from KB is that they are a direct swap for the older blowers. The width and height are the same but the length is different.

Scott Long
03-07-2007, 02:36 PM
I read about the big bore blowers in MM&FF and Ford Builder and I was wondering as well how much more power a 2.0 or 2.1 would make in place of a standard port 1.7L. I don't have the cash or a car with the right stuff to find out, but I do have the curiosity. I guess we'll see if anyone steps up and gets a big bore and dyno's it and tracks it compared to there 1.7L numbers.

David Neibert
03-07-2007, 04:12 PM
After getting a quote earlier today to repaint my 91 :eek: :eek: .....I think I'll keep the blower I've got.

David

nickleman60
03-07-2007, 04:24 PM
After getting a quote earlier today to repaint my 91 :eek: :eek: .....I think I'll keep the blower I've got.

David

paint is one of the most expensive upgrades you can do.:rolleyes:

Randy N Connie
03-07-2007, 05:55 PM
Randy,

Is that a picture of the new KB big bore 2.1 that is supposed to be a direct replacement for the 1.7 AR ? Since reading about the 2.1 in the most recent issue of MM&FF, I've been wondering what it would take to make the swap.

David

Yes Its from MM&FF.

I don't think that I would be interested in a big bore blower.
But I would be interested in a 1.7 ported version of the A/R
blower.

I am interested in machining a new back plate that
would be a ported version for the 1.7 A/R, with larger bearings.
I do not know about how the timing placment of the openings
should be yet. I do not see the timing to be a big problem to
figuar out. Since I can machine a new back plate. And If its
timing would be wrong I can toss in the scrap pile,and do
another one until I get it right.

In The picture the rotors look the same with the same amount
of vains on the rotors. plus the bearing boss are flush,unlike
my 1.7 stock A/R blower. So besides opening the blower up
some with a new back plate, I think removing the protruding
bearing boss's would help flow.

I posted the picture and made these posts so maybe Dave D.
could look into machining a CNC version of a new ported back
plate for the 1.7 A/R. If he don't look into it I will be blowing
his stocker off in the weeds . :)

It looks to be a very simple & cheap upgrade to fab.I thought
David N & Dave D. may be interested .

Sorry for the highjack of this thread. I just thought I would
bring up the cost's and upgrades for the 1.7 A/R from a different angle.

I am out of here, thanks Randy

FineLineMtrSprt
03-07-2007, 07:07 PM
OK i havent run prices in awhile...KB's blower upgrade for the Lightning used to be like 2500 bucks. Oh well....Steigy's just got back to me adn said they do porting for 395 bucks....has anyone had one of thiers done?

Jason Wild
03-07-2007, 09:44 PM
I'm willing to step up and try a 2.1 autorotor and fab up the parts need to make it fit

Ira R.
03-07-2007, 09:47 PM
I'm willing to step up and try a 2.1 autorotor and fab up the parts need to make it fit

I think Jason's got the right approach. I too volunteer. When they come in ship me my test kit as well and I will provide a step by step commentary with pictures on the whole process. :rolleyes: :D

Ira :p

FineLineMtrSprt
03-07-2007, 10:43 PM
Randy i didnt think you were hijacking the thread at all...im digging what you're posting.

XR7 Dave
03-07-2007, 11:10 PM
I'm willing to step up and try a 2.1 autorotor and fab up the parts need to make it fit

Let us know how it turns out, ok?

David Neibert
03-07-2007, 11:45 PM
OK i havent run prices in awhile...KB's blower upgrade for the Lightning used to be like 2500 bucks. Oh well....Steigy's just got back to me adn said they do porting for 395 bucks....has anyone had one of thiers done?

Stiegemeier ports more Lightning and Cobra blowers that anyone else I know, but they very seldom do M90s and I haven't seen any impressive performance numbers from the ones they have done.

IMO, your better off going to Magnum Powers.

David

XxSlowpokexX
03-08-2007, 12:39 PM
Just get an MPX and inlet and call it a day..Of course 400-1200 is a huge difference in price

XR7 Dave
03-08-2007, 01:42 PM
Just get an MPX and inlet and call it a day..Of course 400-1200 is a huge difference in priceFor $1200 you get the blower case and the plenum. If all you want is a ported blower MP charges under $300. :rolleyes:

XxSlowpokexX
03-08-2007, 05:00 PM
Well even charles is cheaper then Steig in the porting blower buissness

FineLineMtrSprt
03-08-2007, 07:42 PM
Thanks for the info....thats why i came joined the site in the first place. Might as well get it from all the folks who know. Cheers to all who chimed in.

Payton
03-08-2007, 08:42 PM
Thanks for the info....thats why i came joined the site in the first place. Might as well get it from all the folks who know. Cheers to all who chimed in.

Well, you haven't quite joined the club yet:rolleyes:

FineLineMtrSprt
03-08-2007, 10:41 PM
lol...yeah i realized that....but im working on it right now. I wanted to try and find out more about the SC i just picked up but the owner who had it before the guy i got it from hasnt answered my pm's.

Randy N Connie
03-08-2007, 10:55 PM
Well even charles is cheaper then Steig in the porting blower buissness

I bought me a peice of aluminum for $10.00 today.
I hope to be able to make a new bolt-on
ported A/R back plate.

So far A/R blower porting is $10.00 :p

Randy

XxSlowpokexX
03-09-2007, 11:48 AM
haha nice...

So Randy..You will be mimicking the big bore back plate?

Randy N Connie
03-09-2007, 08:20 PM
haha nice...

So Randy..You will be mimicking the big bore back plate?

Yup thats the plan! If I find the time.

Then I will be able to biaaach about A/R belt slippage. :)

Thanks Randy

ricardoa1
11-19-2009, 06:12 PM
Reading thru this. Is this advisable to do on a 1.7l AR? I assume that the new blowers from KB with the large bore have wider rotors. Can one port a 1.7L for more performance? Or is this a really bad idea and playing with porting is a safe bet to ruining a good working blower? I know eaton would have said the same with our SCs but look at where we are now with the M90.

I just want to know since porting a 1.7l sounds cheaper then buying a larger displacent blower? I know im not alone there has to be a few 1.7l AR owners that want to make some progress with their set ups.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25278&d=1173285413

ricardoa1
11-19-2009, 06:37 PM
Here is what we have.


http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i10/ricardoa1/AR.jpg

David Neibert
11-20-2009, 01:26 PM
Ricardo,

I haven't heard of anyone porting a twin screw for improved performance. I have however, read plenty about improving the performance of the twin screw by optimizing the air inlet to reduce restrictions. If the existing system is shown to be pulling a vacuum on the inlet plenum or at any other point between the air filter and the blower inlet, then we are leaving efficency/power on the table.

I recently read an article where they were showing 5 plus inches of vacuum at the blower inlet on a GT500, and after reducing that to zero by installing a bigger inlet plenum, TB, MAF and air intake tube, I think they gained 81 rwhp at the same blower speed. They gained 63 rwhp, just by changing the air filter and mass air meter (reduced inlet vacuum from 5.3 to 3.3 inches)

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_0906_gt500_supercharger_tests/index.html

I have no idea if the existing inlet system on my car is restrictive or not. I suppose the easiest way to find out is to install a vacuum gauge on the inlet plenum and see what it shows.

David

ricardoa1
11-20-2009, 02:04 PM
Ricardo,

I haven't heard of anyone porting a twin screw for improved performance. I have however, read plenty about improving the performance of the twin screw by optimizing the air inlet to reduce restrictions. If the existing system is shown to be pulling a vacuum on the inlet plenum or at any other point between the air filter and the blower inlet, then we are leaving efficency/power on the table.



David

Thanks for the read. I am pretty positive that the inlet on my car might not be the correct size for my set up. I suppose I can also install the vac or boost vac gauge there and see where I stand. Im afraid of what I might find. See my inlet on my car was from an early kit and it was meant to be used with a 75mm TB well I have a 85mm and although the transition was reworked I have a less then ideal inlet on the kit. The bottle neck is still with 75MM in mind. Unfurtunatelly I dont know if this can be fixed unless a new intlet is made. I have a hunch that my set up less then optimal because of this inlet. That article supports my thoughts. Also note that there is so little room back there because of the return elbow being in the way. Inlet needs to be sqashed to clear it. I am not sure how to rectify my problem without making a new inlet. I dont have the tools or skills to get that done so I guess Ill sit back on this for a little. And maybe run the test instead.

Maybe the 2.0l blowers are also having an even harder time and thats why we are not seeing new records broken with them as we all expect.

David Neibert
11-20-2009, 02:28 PM
Thanks for the read. I am pretty positive that the inlet on my car might not be the correct size for my set up. I suppose I can also install the vac or boost vac gauge there and see where I stand. Im afraid of what I might find. See my inlet on my car was from an early kit and it was meant to be used with a 75mm TB well I have a 85mm and although the transition was reworked I have a less then ideal inlet on the kit. The bottle neck is still with 75MM in mind. Unfurtunatelly I dont know if this can be fixed unless a new intlet is made. I have a hunch that my set up less then optimal because of this inlet. That article supports my thoughts. Also note that there is so little room back there because of the return elbow being in the way. Inlet needs to be sqashed to clear it. I am not sure how to rectify my problem without making a new inlet. I dont have the tools or skills to get that done so I guess Ill sit back on this for a little. And maybe run the test instead.

Maybe the 2.0l blowers are also having an even harder time and thats why we are not seeing new records broken with them as we all expect.

Ricardo,

Not saying that the inlet is indeed a problem, but if it was shown to be a significant restriction I think there is a way to improve it for those people using a 1.7 kit. I'm thinking the blower could be positioned further forward, the same as the 2.0 AR is. Then use that extra space at the rear of the blower for a larger inlet plenum. This would require fabricating a new inlet plenum and a new method to secure the rear of the blower. I think the rear of the inlet plenum could be bolted to the front of return plenum similar to how the most recent 2.0 kit is secured.

This would also require additional rework to the intake manifold and a different style blower pulley (same as current 2.0 AR kit ). Clearly this would not be cheap and would require some custom fabrication, so I seriously doubt that anyone will do it without first seeing proof of big HP gains. Even if it was showing a restriction....before doing all that stuff, I'd rather invest in a whole new kit that also includes a larger blower.

David

ricardoa1
11-20-2009, 03:00 PM
Ricardo,

Not saying that the inlet is indeed a problem, but if it was shown to be a significant restriction I think there is a way to improve it for those people using a 1.7 kit. I'm thinking the blower could be positioned further forward, the same as the 2.0 AR is. Then use that extra space at the rear of the blower for a larger inlet plenum. This would require fabricating a new inlet plenum and a new method to secure the rear of the blower. I think the rear of the inlet plenum could be bolted to the front of return plenum similar to how the most recent 2.0 kit is secured.

This would also require additional rework to the intake manifold and a different style blower pulley (same as current 2.0 AR kit ). Clearly this would not be cheap and would require some custom fabrication, so I seriously doubt that anyone will do it without first seeing proof of big HP gains. Even if it was showing a restriction....before doing all that stuff, I'd rather invest in a whole new kit that also includes a larger blower.

David


Also add a shorter snout and new pulleys to realign the belt. Sounds very expensive already. Anyone have a 2.0l for sale?

Toms-SC
11-20-2009, 03:15 PM
There is a reason why both KB and Whipple have launched kits with larger inlet plenums :) Sadly we are limited due to the intake manifold housing the return plenum.

David Neibert
11-20-2009, 03:30 PM
Also add a shorter snout and new pulleys to realign the belt. Sounds very expensive already. Anyone have a 2.0l for sale?

Ricardo,

I don't think the snout length is an issue, pretty sure it only requires the use of the 2.0 style pulleys that wrap around the snout and probably a revision to the front A frame snout support bracket mounting to move it a little closer to the face of the motor. Accessory and jackshaft pulleys should remain in the same location.

David

kenewagner
11-20-2009, 03:33 PM
Ricardo,

I'm thinking the blower could be positioned further forward, the same as the 2.0 AR is. Then use that extra space at the rear of the blower for a larger inlet plenum. This would require fabricating a new inlet plenum and a new method to secure the rear of the blower. I think the rear of the inlet plenum could be bolted to the front of return plenum similar to how the most recent 2.0 kit is secured.

This would also require additional rework to the intake manifold and a different style blower pulley (same as current 2.0 AR kit ). Clearly this would not be cheap and would require some custom fabrication
David

Not knowing anything about the AR blowers, Ill ask anyway, do they have a choice of snout length? Can a shorter snout be added to the blower allowing it to be moved forward and still line up with the J/S pulley. The rest is just fabricating stuff.

Ken

rzimmerl
11-20-2009, 03:41 PM
Yes there are different drive lengths available. They get rather pricey though if they are not stocked in the states....been thru that ordeal last year when I had to get a new drive imported from Sweden for my 1.7 that Dave is working on. Attached is a drive chart.

David Neibert
11-20-2009, 03:54 PM
According to info contained in this post, the 2.0 is 1.11" longer than the 1.7. Not sure how much further forward the blower was positioned with Dave's 2.0 AR kit. The raised top/outlet also has to move forward which may cause clearance problems with some hoods, it may also interfere with the coil pack mounting location.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?p=789633#post789633

The more I think about it, the less it sounds like a good idea.

David

XxSlowpokexX
11-20-2009, 03:57 PM
Kenne bell and others saw huge gains by increasing the size of thier inlet plenums. I had mentioned it years ago but the 1.7 inlet plenums are puny especially in comparison to what they have out now. There is most likely much left on the table because of that. But what can you fit? Seems Dave did the best job he could squeezing it together squeezing what he could in there.

As far as Porting KB had different backing plates with different port configurations which affected the way the boost came on. You may want to look at that. I dont recall right now but there would be two part #'s for the same size blower dependant on port configuration/sizing.

Less restrictive inlet would mean more boost at less blower rpm potentially

ricardoa1
11-20-2009, 04:41 PM
So not talking about the inlet although that is a very important subject. Kenne bell replaced the 1.7L on the mustant GT kit with a big bore 2.1l MM&FF claim that the blower has the same physical dimensions or it was close enough where it replaced the unit with the 1.7L and bolted right up. I assume the rotors are larger for them to increase the displacement and maintain or similar exterior dimensions. If one was to find one in ebay can one be sure it will fit in place of the AR just like MM&FF claim?

If so. David N. Could it be lucrative to buy a mustang GT kit and sell it back to the mustang crowd used with the 1.7L Head unit in place. That way getting the blower will not be an ordeal.


http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0704_ford_kenne_bell_supercharger/index.html

David Neibert
11-20-2009, 05:24 PM
So not talking about the inlet although that is a very important subject. Kenne bell replaced the 1.7L on the mustant GT kit with a big bore 2.1l MM&FF claim that the blower has the same physical dimensions or it was close enough where it replaced the unit with the 1.7L and bolted right up. I assume the rotors are larger for them to increase the displacement and maintain or similar exterior dimensions. If one was to find one in ebay can one be sure it will fit in place of the AR just like MM&FF claim?

If so. David N. Could it be lucrative to buy a mustang GT kit and sell it back to the mustang crowd used with the 1.7L Head unit in place. That way getting the blower will not be an ordeal.


http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0704_ford_kenne_bell_supercharger/index.html

Funny you mention it, because figuring out how to adapt a 2.1 big bore to the kit I already have is excatly what I've been looking into. Biggest problem with using a 2.1 big bore is getting KB to sell me the supercharger. I might consider buying a kit or trying to get them to sell me the blower to upgrade a fictious kit, but I don't know what the application is for the KB 1.7 with the same snout length as we are currently using, or if the same blower configuration was even used in any of their kits.

Then there is the upward facing discharge issue....everything I've seen on KB kits had a bottom discharge except the Blowzilla or Flowzilla for a 5.0 that was equipped with the super long snout. I wouldn't care if the KB logo was upside down, but I would like to be able to check the oil level.

To further complicate matters, if I did the 2.1 big bore, I'd also want to increase the inlet plenum size by moving the blower forward and doing the stuff I mentioned earlier. Does that change the snout length ?? At this point I don't even know what to ask for, let alone how to get it.

David

XxSlowpokexX
11-20-2009, 05:24 PM
Not knowing anything about the AR blowers, Ill ask anyway, do they have a choice of snout length? Can a shorter snout be added to the blower allowing it to be moved forward and still line up with the J/S pulley. The rest is just fabricating stuff.

Ken

Ken the 2.2 I have actually had a longer snout on it. The current one is shorter..

XxSlowpokexX
11-20-2009, 05:29 PM
David & Rico

It would appear the lower intake would have to be modified at the thermostat housing to move the blower any more forward (if you wanted to fit a larger unit). You may also run into hood clearence issues if using a stock hood..And they are prety modular so the oil fill wont be an issue if flipping it over

ricardoa1
11-20-2009, 05:37 PM
Funny you mention it, because figuring out how to adapt a 2.1 big bore to the kit I already have is excatly what I've been looking into. Biggest problem with using a 2.1 big bore is getting KB to sell me the supercharger. I might consider buying a kit or trying to get them to sell me the blower to upgrade a fictious kit, but I don't know what the application is for the KB 1.7 with the same snout length as we are currently using, or if the same blower configuration was even used in any of their kits.

Then there is the upward facing discharge issue....everything I've seen on KB kits had a bottom discharge except the Blowzilla or Flowzilla for a 5.0 that was equipped with the super long snout. I wouldn't care if the KB logo was upside down, but I would like to be able to check the oil level.

To further complicate matters, if I did the 2.1 big bore, I'd also want to increase the inlet plenum size by moving the blower forward and doing the stuff I mentioned earlier. Does that change the snout length ?? At this point I don't even know what to ask for, let alone how to get it.

David

The mustang GT kit, SN95 and the new edge ones 99-04 were the kits that used the 1.7l HU. I know people upgrade when the 1.7L blow up KB supplies them with new 2.1L but they require the 1.7L as a core. I am almost sure the ficticious kit idea will not work with them. They dont want to sell to shops. It a pretty big process. But buying a used 2.1l kit or a new kit and then replacing it with the 1.7L then it will still have pretty good resale value, i would imagine. Those kits only push 6-9PSI non IC and I think the 1.7L is all they need anyways. its just that it was easier for KB to make the switch to the 2.1L so they can cater to other applications with the larger blower.

ricardoa1
11-20-2009, 05:43 PM
David the only problem I see if the sizes are the same. Is the snout drive. They need to interchange, the mustang snout will need to stay with the snout and the SCU snout will need to stay with the SCU snout, they are different sizes. So do they interchange?

David Neibert
11-20-2009, 05:49 PM
David the only problem I see if the sizes are the same. Is the snout drive. They need to interchange, the mustang snout will need to stay with the snout and the SCU snout will need to stay with the SCU snout, they are different sizes. So do they interchange?

From what I've read the big bore blowers use a different snout and they are not interchangable with the Opcon/Autorotor snouts.

David

XR7 Dave
11-20-2009, 05:54 PM
Several tidbits for you guys to ponder.

1) The AR's are not all the same length. The first batch were longer cases.

2) The 2.0's have more room at the back of the blower than the original 1.7's did.

3) Yes, the blower can move forward, but it will require custom modification of your intake manifold and very possibly (depending on how far you go forward) a custom blower cap. Then you'll have to modify or make a new plenum to fit anyway.

4) There are custom length snouts available but it will be cheaper to have custom pulleys made instead.


As for blower inlet plenum size, I agree that the size is a compromise, but I'm not convinced as to the "massive gains" to be had through a bigger one. It would be simple enough to install a vacuum port into the back of the plenum and measure it. I always based my assumption that the plenum was big enough on the fact that no one had experience boost fall off. I am sure you are all aware of the boost fall off phenomenon on the M90's when inlet plenum capacity is exceeded. I assume that the twin screw would respond similarly when that limit is reached. That may or may not be a reasonable way of concluding that plenum size is or isn't sufficient, but nonetheless, if boost is continuing to climb (as it was on my car) I just felt that plenum volume probably wasn't the biggest issue.

Not to downplay anything, but if anyone thinks there is a magic 50rwhp waiting to jump out of a new plenum, I think you'll be disappointed. The "massive gains" that the Cobra boys have been seeing have been at a much higher cfm rate and are representative of much higher power levels in the first place. 60rwhp on a 100rwhp car is more like 40rwhp on a 400rwhp car. Granted, 40rwhp is huge still, but it can only be available if we are indeed over-running our inlets as badly as the Cobra guys were. Time will tell the tale I suppose. :)

XR7 Dave
11-20-2009, 06:05 PM
Also, as Damon said, the blowers can be flipped upside down, that is not an issue.

I believe that the 1.7L NA Cobra kits used the 141mm snout. You'll have to use the snout that comes with the blower. If you want to do Ricardo's idea, I think that would work, but only if the snouts are the same length.

Due to the design of the inlet and the space you have to work with, making a larger inlet is going to be a rather major re-construction effort on the inlet. I'm sure you could have someone do it for you but no idea how effective that would ultimately end up being. I'm not going to volunteer to do the work because frankly I have about 6 kits still to build and I think those who are waiting on said parts would lynch me if I considered it. Then there is the fact that the new plenum's I'm working on are much better than the old style so as to where I really don't think when you see the new ones you'll even want your old ones reworked.......

I think if you have a kit now you probably should just use it and if/when something better comes along, just upgrade. If I had known some would pay the prices they did for used or shelf worn kits, I'd have charged $5000 the first time around (and put more money into a nicer inlet). But who knew? :confused:

XR7 Dave
11-20-2009, 06:06 PM
Oh, and Ricardo, the 2.1L is about 3/4" shorter than yours so it will not be a direct bolt in.

Ghost
11-20-2009, 06:38 PM
I have a brand new big bore 2.1 KB sitting in the garage, I can take some measurements later so you can confirm whether it's bigger or not. The one issue I observed from the photos of the various AR kits is that the 1.7L is "indented" on the sides (for lack of a better word) whereas the 2.1 is a smooth radius. This causes an issue with the fuel rail, that one had me scratching my head when I was mocking things up.

I bought the snout directly from KB, I just told them that I bought a 96-98 Cobra kit second hand and that my snout was damaged. It took some convincing, but they did sell it to me. IIRC I paid ~$530 shipped for the spider, sealing ring, 8 rib pulley, vented pulley bolt, blower oil and pulley installation tool. The snout length is 141mm from the blower side flange to the center rib of the pulley. You can get a shorter snout (71mm IIRC) if you specify a snout for the Mustang Bullitt kit.

The older snouts are different than the newer snouts. I had an older 1.33L Autorotor from a Chevy kit and tried to use the snout from that on the 2.1L. It was a no-go due to the fact that the drive coupling which contains the plastic "spider" sticks out of the blower on the old units whereas it is completely inside the housing on the 2.1L (the coupling "fingers" stick out of the newer KB snouts).

I guess I'll never find out how it would've worked since I canceled my 3.8SC swap project, but I'm onto better & bigger things...

Hope this helps!
Jacek

PS Here's some pics of the mocked up 2.1L:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/jacekp/SC%2038%20Project/SC38Swap_06-1.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/jacekp/SC%2038%20Project/SC38Swap_09-1.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/jacekp/SC%2038%20Project/SC38Swap_11-1.jpg

Mike8675309
11-20-2009, 06:56 PM
I have a brand new big bore 2.1 KB sitting in the garage, I can take some measurements later so you can confirm whether it's bigger or not.


From your pictures I would be concerned that you don't have enough room at the back of the blower to fit both the intake plenum from the throttle body and the intake manifold plenum.

Note on the 2.0 kit, the intake manifold was modified, and you can see how much of that room was used. manifold plenum mount was left as is, though the plenum in the back of the blower is much bigger (I'll find a picture somewhere) and work was done on the intake manifold plenum to fit the bypass valve.

Fitment of the fuel rail can be a challenge and I had to offset the coil pack a bit to allow everything to clear with how I changed the fuel rail.

http://media.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_2009_work/4a230cf1c3f21/tn_full_DSCF2793JPG_Thumbnail1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/417821)
http://media.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_2009_work/4a946eef81190/tn_full_driverssidefuelrailjpg_Thumbnail1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/446536)

It also caught the intake manifold coolant temp sensor tower and some of my aftermarket intake manifold bolts (heads too tall). Both of which needed to be adjusted.

http://media.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_2009_work/4a230cdb15265/tn_full_clearancemanifld3jpg_Thumbnail1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/417819)
http://media.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_2009_work/4a230cce39fba/tn_full_clearancemanifld2jpg_Thumbnail1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/417818)

Here is a picture of the rear of the 2.0l blower plenum. Not real easy to see due to the color and angle, but you can first see how much larger in width it is then the stock one. Also the greater size from the throttle body on. This picture was taken when I was figuring out what fitting went where. the hole is for access to the 5th bolt holding the plate to the back of the blower. A plug goes there after it's all mounted.
http://media.motortopia.com/files/3211/album_2009_work/4b07652ae74a2/tn_full_holeinplenum.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/472481)

Toms-SC
11-23-2009, 02:42 PM
Interesting photos. Thanks for sharing! I was expecting the AR Inlet Plenum to be way choked off. Nice job Dave!

ricardoa1
11-23-2009, 03:09 PM
Interesting photos. Thanks for sharing! I was expecting the AR Inlet Plenum to be way choked off. Nice job Dave!

You should see my Inlet :( Not even close to the size of that. Still not much to do witht he avail room back there. Lets get some Vac reading guys should not be too hard. My car is stored so I cannot help for a little while.