Paul's Fugged Up Blower thread

[Car2n]

So's I don't thread crap in the Dyno thread with my blower issues, I'll start a new thread.
I've had a few hours of thinking time now and used our friendly sccoa search button to see just what may be up with my blower and the noises it makes.
The knocking sound it's had for the past short while sounds like it may be the coupler going bad. The growling sound that just started sounds exactly like one would expect bad bearings to sound like. Very much like the sound you hear from bad wheel bearings.
The fluid is low (no leakage) and is black as coal. The last time I had the plenum on the rear of the blower off, I noticed a lot of oily residue on the exposed ends of the rotors. After seeing the fluid today, it looks like the same fluid I noticed on the rotor ends and inside the case when I had the plenum off. (It's not blow-by oil as I have a pcv filter).
1) I'll try replacing the fluid to see if there is any change in the noise.
2) I'll contact Magnum Powers first thing Monday to see what he thinks and what can be done by him or myself keeping the dyno date in mind.

The blower has about 1000 k on it at most.
Would the fluid be black?
Would a bad coupler or bearings break apart and damage anything (engine)?
I've never had the front end of a M90 open so I don't know what any of these parts look like.
If I was able to get rebuild/replacement parts overnighted, could I or whit help from someone that's been there/done that get the blower back into operation before friday?

[92strokedbird]

I sent you a pm Paul.:rolleyes:

[Car2n]

Got you PM Steve.
Thanks

[SeanMatteson]

Paul,

If you're seeing supercharger oil inside the blower on the rotors, then the seals in the rotor pack are leaking. They're supposed to keep the fluid in the snout of the blower and not let it bleed past into the blower itself.

I know some of us have looked at what it might take to replace those seals, but basically you have to break away material that was crimped over the bearings and seals to drive them out, unless the blower was previously rebuilt by MP and they modified this setup to include snap-ring retainers and different bearings and seals.

If the issue was the snout (bearings and/or seals), or the needle bearings in the rear of the case, I know we could get you back up and running quickly. However, if it's the bearings and/or seals in the rotor-pack that have failed then I think it's going to need to go back to MP.

Perhaps Steve N. knows where/how you can get this done faster?!

Cheers,

Sean

[Car2n]

On a bright note,,,, the car was running like crap because Steeda never got a decent tune into it before I pulled the car out of their shop. It would completely cut out and die at 3 grand. I got a tune file from VMP Tuning in Floridia. He does alot of V6 Mustang tunes and has done a few for guys like myself that have put the M90 into their stangs.
I loaded the file into the car today and it runs really good. Pulls like a mofo.
2 thumbs up to VMP :)

[Jason Wild]

I'm going to say it's the coupler same sound as I had and bill when the spring load coupler goes and starts to rub the gears.

Sean no need for snap rings there just do what ESM does to kept them in.:D

[Car2n]

[QUOTE=SeanMatteson]

If you're seeing supercharger oil inside the blower on the rotors, then the seals in the rotor pack are leaking. They're supposed to keep the fluid in the snout of the blower and not let it bleed past into the blower itself.
> Well that sure looks like the case here.

unless the blower was previously rebuilt by MP ,,
> It the MPIII

if it's the bearings and/or seals in the rotor-pack,,,
> I'm a little stuck on the terminology. The rotor pack would be the front end of the blower between the snout and the case itself? Is this where the coupler is?

[SeanMatteson]

[QUOTE=SeanMatteson]

If you're seeing supercharger oil inside the blower on the rotors, then the seals in the rotor pack are leaking. They're supposed to keep the fluid in the snout of the blower and not let it bleed past into the blower itself.
> Well that sure looks like the case here.

unless the blower was previously rebuilt by MP ,,
> It the MPIII

if it's the bearings and/or seals in the rotor-pack,,,
> I'm a little stuck on the terminology. The rotor pack would be the front end of the blower between the snout and the case itself? Is this where the coupler is?

Actually, the coupler is situated between the input shaft on the snout, and the one gear in the rotor-pack. It's these two things that it 'couples' together providing drive to the rotor-pack. And, yes, the rotor-pack is how I refer to the center plate of the blower, which has the rotors mounted on one side, and the gears that drive the rotors mounted on the other. Between these parts are a set of bearings, and seals.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Sean

[Car2n]

I topped up the fluid. It only took half a bottle. No change in the noise level.
The thing sounds real bad. It sounds like it's ready to disinigrate. Not a marble sound,, more like rocks. It sounds like it more than a bearing or coupler problem. I'm going to pull the blower off later today and break it down.

Does anyone have a blower and inlet plenum I can borrow for the dyno tune?????????

[Car2n]

I took the blower off and broke it apart.
The coupler looks fine.
If I rotate the pulley by hand I can feel the coupler working and it seems normal to me. The rotor on the drivers side has some slop to it and actually touches/grinds against the passenger side rotor at the back end.
The drivers side rotor is grinding against the case back. If I had to guess what the problem is, I'd have to say it's the bearing at the back case on the drivers side rotor but I really don't know because of the fluid in the case the problem may be at the front end of the rotor..
There is a black residue of supercharger fluid present inside the case. (you'll see plenty of fluid in the pics but I got it all over the place when I removed the snout)
If you follow this link http://www.bromell.com/blower.htm you will see 4 pictures. 2 are the back end of the drivers side rotor and 2 are inside the case at the same location. REALLY LARGE PICTURES. DIALUP BEST NOT EVEN TRY!!!!!

[tbirdsc357]

Damn that sucks.....

Have you called MP?

[Car2n]

Damn that sucks.....

Have you called MP?

Yes, Charles believes the blower is scrap because of the rear bearings and the stock (MPIII) case aluminum. He is willing to take care of me and send out a MPX case which I'd have to assemble here. The MPIII is no longer supported and he cannot rebuild them. Time is the factor here. If he were to send out a new MPX case, it would not be polished. I want my case to be polished and that means a couple weeks wait time. I want to let Charles know of my decision by beddy-bye time tonight.
Ideally, I'd like to wait and have MP send out a polished case and borrow a supercharger for the dyno tuning. I'd need to pick up a blower by Wednesday night and could return it on Sunday.

[XR7 Dave]

Why did you have such a thick layer of sealant around the top? The top and blower are supposed to be sealed together with anerobic sealer which is extremely thin and actually forms a bond to the case that allows the top to reinforce the case. I've seen where people try to install a top that is not 100% true and it distorts the case causing the rotors to contact the case and/or each other.

Don't know if that had anything to do with this but I know that can be a big issue. What top were you using?

[Car2n]

Why did you have such a thick layer of sealant around the top? The top and blower are supposed to be sealed together with anerobic sealer which is extremely thin and actually forms a bond to the case that allows the top to reinforce the case. I've seen where people try to install a top that is not 100% true and it distorts the case causing the rotors to contact the case and/or each other.

Don't know if that had anything to do with this but I know that can be a big issue. What top were you using?

Makes sence with the top reinforcing the case. It has a MP raised top.
Yeah, the sealant was on there kinda thick. It's RTV. It was a bead about 1/8" and let to sit overnight to cure up before bolting the cap down. I've seen pictures of guys tops and RTV oozing out the edges. I thought I was getting a good seal.

[SeanMatteson]

Paul,

Assuming the rear case bearings are the same as stock, I may have a couple of spare brand new bearings that I could sell you. This may eliminate the slop in the rotors, but I'm not sure what damage may have already been done to the rotors and/or the case. I'll have to dig up my receipt to know what a reasonable price to charge would be.

...I'll try to post up here again later tonight.

Regards,

Sean

[ALS35]

Looking at those pictures made me feel bad for you. It made a lot of metal while it was eating itself. I would recomend that you inspect downstream of the blower to find out where the rest of your rotors ended up. My recommendation would be to not try to rush for the tune day but make sure your engine or your intercooler haven't swallowed a bunch of metal flakes.
Just my two cents but better to be safe than risk bigger damage.
Alan

[lazybird4pt6]

If it were me, Paul, i'd say screw the p'n'p and just get something else in there.

I'm more concerned, along with Alan, about where those bits of metal are now.

Trust me, Paul, if ANYONE here can talk about blowing up ~~~~ it's me and after ALL of the BS you've been through (and I can talk here, too) ..... do I need to say more? Okay .....

If I could spend my $15K again i'd have a very, VERY different car after learning from mistakes.


p.s. - i'm sorry to hear about all the BS you're going through, really. Been there, done that, not a fun trip. Don't know if sympathy means anything here, but i'm pullin' for ya'. ;)

[Car2n]

I don't think metal shavings are a real concern. The pictures may look bad but it's more of a "wear" rather than a "gouge". The rotor edges look fine. What makes me wonder is how you would go about finding any stray metals downstream. The only place that I can think of looking is where the air exits the front mount IC.
If I don't find a lender blower, I'm strapping this thing back on for the dyno runs. I'll get it fixed up afterwards when time isn't an issue.

[Car2n]

The top and blower are supposed to be sealed together with anerobic sealer

Got some (now) :rolleyes:

[lazybird4pt6]

If I don't find a lender blower, I'm strapping this thing back on for the dyno runs. I'll get it fixed up afterwards when time isn't an issue.

I'd gladly offer you my blower, but i'm not sure it's in any condition to be used the way it is. Sorry, really wish I could help, really I do. :o

SOMEONE GIVE HIM A BLOWER ALREADY! Please. :)

There, NOW you'll get one for sure - LOL!

[tbirdsc357]

If I don't find a lender blower, I'm strapping this thing back on for the dyno runs. I'll get it fixed up afterwards when time isn't an issue.

Sweet.....thats the way real men do it.:D

[SeanMatteson]

Actually, Paul, you'll need a blower and plenum. You can't use your MPIII plenum with a stock early or late style blower.

Are you running an EGR?

If you want to look at trying to salvage your MPIII for the tuning day, I would suggest you at least replace the rear case bearings and see if that fixes your clearance issue between rotors.

If you want to try getting the bearings from a local supplier, you need the following:

Type: Needle Bearing
Manufacturer: INA
Manuf. Part Number: FC65477.1

I currently have 4 pairs of the needle bearings left. I could sell you a pair for $30 and hand them to you on Friday morning at Ed's, or Saturday morning at the dyno, but I'm betting you'll want to get this fixed before then.

I hope this helps. I was really hoping to see your car in action, Paul!

Regards,

Sean

[Car2n]

That may be an option. I'll see if I can get some locally within a day or so. If not, I'll get a hold of you and take a drive to Hamilton tommorrow night.

I put the blower back together and although I didn't "fix" anything it spins smoothly. I'm sure that if I put it on the car and spun it as speed it would still be the same. It only takes me 20 minutes to put the thing on so I'll try it out.

[SeanMatteson]

That may be an option. I'll see if I can get some locally within a day or so. If not, I'll get a hold of you and take a drive to Hamilton tommorrow night.

I put the blower back together and although I didn't "fix" anything it spins smoothly. I'm sure that if I put it on the car and spun it as speed it would still be the same. It only takes me 20 minutes to put the thing on so I'll try it out.

Well, I was chatting with Dave Dalke online, and he tells me the MPIII's actually use a different rear case bearing, so the part number information I provided is probably useless to you. ...As is the fact that I've got some OEM type bearings on hand.

Sorry, Paul. I wonder if you can get the part number for those bearings from Charles? ...Then you could try to source a pair of them locally tomorrow.

Good luck!

Sean

[Car2n]

Well, I was chatting with Dave Dalke online, and he tells me the MPIII's actually use a different rear case bearing, so the part number information I provided is probably useless to you. ...As is the fact that I've got some OEM type bearings on hand.

Sorry, Paul. I wonder if you can get the part number for those bearings from Charles? ...Then you could try to source a pair of them locally tomorrow.

Good luck!

Sean

I thought they were different. That was one of the selling points of the MPIII. Bigger/stronger/longer lasting bearings. I did email Charles about the bearings. Haven't heard back yet.

[Car2n]

Paul, yes they are.
Charles

Paul Bromell wrote:
>
> Charles
>
> Are the rear bearings on the MPIII the same size as a stock M90?
>

[fturner]

I've got an extra blower and plenum you can borrow if you need it from a '90 auto I've got here, but keep in mind its stock. The last time it was running it wasn't making any funny noise so it should hold up ok for the dyno run I figure.

I'm off all week, but I can't travel too much due to being on call :cool:

You'd have to wonder out here to Hagersville. Its about 30 minutes south of Hamilton on Hwy 6 south.

If your interested PM me.

[SeanMatteson]

Paul, yes they are.
Charles

Paul Bromell wrote:
>
> Charles
>
> Are the rear bearings on the MPIII the same size as a stock M90?
>

Interesting... So do they use improved bearings in the MPIII or don't they???

Perhaps Charles means that they are the same dimensions as stock, but perhaps MP puts a better than stock quality bearing in???

Anyway, if the bearings I mentioned above with work for you, Paul, then we could try swapping a set in and checking the clearance of the rotors again.

Let me know.

Sean

[Car2n]

I've got an extra blower and plenum you can borrow if you need it from a '90 auto I've got here, but keep in mind its stock. The last time it was running it wasn't making any funny noise so it should hold up ok for the dyno run I figure.

I'm off all week, but I can't travel too much due to being on call :cool:

You'd have to wonder out here to Hagersville. Its about 30 minutes south of Hamilton on Hwy 6 south.

If your interested PM me.

:) I'll call you "plan B"
If I can't get my ~~~~~ together, could I come and see you Thursday?
Do you know if it has the EGR or not? (I can work it either way)

[Car2n]

Interesting... So do they use improved bearings in the MPIII or don't they???

Perhaps Charles means that they are the same dimensions as stock, but perhaps MP puts a better than stock quality bearing in???

Anyway, if the bearings I mentioned above with work for you, Paul, then we could try swapping a set in and checking the clearance of the rotors again.

Let me know.

Sean
I'll phone Charles and talk to him in person about the bearings.

[fturner]

:) I'll call you "plan B"
If I can't get my ~~~~~ together, could I come and see you Thursday?
Do you know if it has the EGR or not? (I can work it either way)

I'll be home all day Thursday so thats not a prob. I also have a blower and plenum from a '90 5 spd so EGR setup isn't a prob.

[T1Bird]

Paul,

I dont know how far you are from Ed's current place, but I left my 90 blower at his house, ran just perfect 13 pounds of boost when I took it off the car, minus the pulley that Ed and I fugged up good!, it has the plenum already bolted to it, and the top, but you can change that, only thing is one of the bolts for the top we noticed was a bit stripped but I had no boost issues, just put some steel wool in there before putting the bolt in maybe, it has EGR, but there are 2 block off plates sitting on the table in Ed's garage, your more then welcome to get you up and going, then ill sell it after.

Bruce

[Payton]

Great to see how people are willing to help out!
I love SCcoO!

[Greg Coleman]

I have the mp2 set up here that wont be on my wifes car for at least 3 more weeks so if you want to borrow it call me and it has the egr adaptor.It is all bolted together except the egr adaptor so you just need to take the egr blocking plate off and clean up the sealer and put on the egr tube seal it to it and away you go.I also have my new pully set with hub and 3 1/2% 7% and 10% pullies. 416-402-8005

[Car2n]

Way to step up to the plate guys!!! That's the club we all can love.
I'll use Gregs blower as it's the closest to my setup as far as pushing air is concerned. Since the dyno tuning is all about getting the proper A/F ratio, I think it's best if I use the blower closest to what I'll be running myself.
Thanks Fraser
Thanks Bruce
Thanks Greg
I can't express how good it makes me feel that the dyno day for me is not in jeprody. I've lost a bit of sleep the last couple days.

[Ryan A Harris]

I wish I had that help when I PM a member to get back a trans I needed. spent a grand and the cars still crap.....:o :(


Anyways, I hope you're luck is better than mine is.

[my95sn95]

if all fails i can run up or meet u half way with a stock m90 that ive got here if u need it

[SeanMatteson]

I wish I had that help when I PM a member to get back a trans I needed. spent a grand and the cars still crap.....:o :(


Anyways, I hope you're luck is better than mine is.

Oh crap!!! Ryan, I don't know why but I didn't think of calling you about the trans. Greg bought it for what I paid you for it. Maybe contact him and see if he's fully committed to it, or whether he can flip it back to you.

I apologize. I hope you didn't part your '94 out on account of that. Heck, I've got another spare early style M5R2 that you probably could have swapped in. I'm not sure, but it came out of a wreck, not out of a car because it was worn out. May be it is fine to just bolt in and use.

Again, I'm sorry.

Sean

[Greg Coleman]

Ryan what is wrong with yours? Both the 94 and my spare trannies are at my buddy's place all torn down so he can put the 94 together for me.He is dam good with trannies maybe he can take on another one,call me Ryan.:eek:

[Car2n]

OK guys, I have Gregs blower here. I'll swap out anything off of mine that needs to go on his tonight and I'll get the thing on my car tommorrow. Lets see if I do it while it's snowing,,,,,,
There is a new MPX with coated rotors in my near future. I will be sending my snout and plenum to Charles and he will port match the plenum and check out the snout and assemble the blower.

[tbirdsc357]

OK guys, I have Gregs blower here. I'll swap out anything off of mine that needs to go on his tonight and I'll get the thing on my car tommorrow. Lets see if I do it while it's snowing,,,,,,
There is a new MPX with coated rotors in my near future. I will be sending my snout and plenum to Charles and he will port match the plenum and check out the snout and assemble the blower.


Nice!

Good Karma for you Greg.:)

[Greg Coleman]

Gota help a brother out!!;) :D

[Jason Wild]

I will tell you what I think happened with the blower that is the Gears on the front of the rotor pack moved a little letting the rotors walk I have had this problem with 2 sets of GTP rotors.

[Car2n]

When I return Gregs blower to him we are going to open mine up and the two of us will take a better look at it to see what happened to it.

[Car2n]

I will tell you what I think happened with the blower that is the Gears on the front of the rotor pack moved a little letting the rotors walk I have had this problem with 2 sets of GTP rotors.

You going to be at Ed's or the dyno tuning? I've been carrying your throttle body around with me to all the meets in hopes of meeting up with you.

[Jason Wild]

I should be at the dyno