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View Full Version : M112 Hybrid Group Buy Interest.



ricardoa1
06-07-2007, 04:35 PM
I have been working with Wade at Embree/High speed lab and he is willing to make me several M112 hybrid kits if enough interest is out there. This could be another great step in performance for us SCrs. And hopefully get close to the performance of the hard to get A/R Blowers.
All that is needed from the customer is the rotor pack and front snout assembly, along with your intake manifold. In return you will get a modified M90 extended to the size on an M112, shortened snout to line up to factory belt and modified intake manifold. This blower is expected to exceed 400rwhp if backed up by an MPX or MPIII. But others will see great gains from the bigger rotors size in a stock or MPI or MPII.

The price is not set. But guesstimates will be in the range of $1400-$1600. Coated rotors would be another $100. Note that you are getting an almost complete rebuild on your blower; all you need is the rear needle bearings. But with the MPX you will get new bearing anyways. Fuel rail modifications are up the user, but not hard to do.


Ok so let’s hear some feed back guys.

XxSlowpokexX
06-07-2007, 06:22 PM
what mods will be done to intake and what inlet will be used?

ricardoa1
06-07-2007, 06:27 PM
You are using whatever M90 case you have. You dont have to send it. The intake modifications will be moving the main SC bolt boss forward and the tstat housing forward to give clearence to the longer blower. the rest of the mani is untouched and will use the remaining bolts for the SC. Inlets will be whatever you have.

It is all bolt on no welding or anything like that. You will have longer bolts to make up the spacer lenght.

tim-g
06-07-2007, 08:15 PM
Its sounds like a good idea. I pmed you.

92bird
06-13-2007, 01:03 PM
Pics? prototype or otherwise?

ricardoa1
06-13-2007, 01:05 PM
Soon...Along with some dynos of it on my car.

XxSlowpokexX
06-29-2007, 04:18 PM
Soon...Along with some dynos of it on my car.

Speaking of which...........................................

ricardoa1
06-29-2007, 04:59 PM
Soon.;)
Wade is working on the mani now, he recently got it. He just moved to a new house so things are not going hyper speed. He has the pictures to send me but he has not had internet connection lately.

nanatothesixth
06-29-2007, 10:56 PM
i may be interested, i will wait to see the pics! Tom

92bird
07-08-2007, 03:24 AM
~yawn~

:p

ricardoa1
07-09-2007, 10:58 AM
I apologize for those waiting for results. They will come I promise. Half the reason why I did not give up and delete this thread is because I want the see what this thing will do on my car. This last month has been hell for me, for those that don’t know, my car broke down in Carlisle PA. From what I though was the head gasket. Mind you I had just spent 2years on jack stands and almost 3k on a second rebuild, first one costing me about the same and the same down time after a Steig head swap and cam swap and no tuning.

Back to Carlisle, after a $1000 in tow expenses the engine was torn down only to find out that the cam bolt came loose broke the cover and again the cam walked and trashed the engine a third time, the block is now useless and cam is junk, pistons are scored and so on……I was face with the decision to say screw it last week and put stock parts on the car and throw in the towel….Guess what I made the dumb decision to rebuild it again and results will come, but in due time.
I spoke to Wade about my kit and it’s supposed to be complete and ready to ship today…..Pictures are up to him until he releases it and gets to its destination.
That’s all I got for now.

Note: That bolt was torque to specs, I believed my torque wrench is junk and spitting out crap #s “Note to self get a new torque wrench.”

ricardoa1
07-22-2007, 02:21 AM
I got some pics to give you an idea of the set up.

mywhite89
07-23-2007, 12:51 PM
Hey i'm not sure what the actual m112 casing looks like, but I wonder if it would be possible to enlarge the blower top towards the front a little further? Looks like the small area for where top sits may become restriction at some point.

Other then that, looks like your on the right track to a nice improvement for sure. Not something I in the market for at this time, but i'll be checking on the results for future reference.

chris

XxSlowpokexX
07-23-2007, 02:44 PM
Ill test it out fer ya:O)

ricardoa1
07-23-2007, 03:43 PM
Hey i'm not sure what the actual m112 casing looks like, but I wonder if it would be possible to enlarge the blower top towards the front a little further? Looks like the small area for where top sits may become restriction at some point.

Other then that, looks like your on the right track to a nice improvement for sure. Not something I in the market for at this time, but i'll be checking on the results for future reference.

chris

Air will make its way out of the front tru the stock M90 opening. It will be no issue. Enlarging the top and extra machine work on the M90 Case will bring cost up for minimal gains. This will allow you to sell the MPX or any M90 case if you chose, without hacking it. Trying to make this as "bolt on" as possible.

My car should be ready in about 2 weeks and dyno will follow.

mywhite89
07-23-2007, 03:46 PM
Air will make its way out of the front tru the stock M90 opening. It will be no issue. Enlarging the top and extra machine work on the M90 Case will bring cost up for minimal gains. This will allow you to sell the MPX or any M90 case if you chose, without hacking it. Trying to make this as "bolt on" as possible.

My car should be ready in about 2 weeks and dyno will follow.

Sounds good, I'm looking forward to seeing the numbers. That is just what I noticed, so I thought I would point that out for good measure.

Chris

THE BIRDMAN
08-05-2007, 03:52 AM
Any new info?


Jay

ricardoa1
08-07-2007, 04:58 PM
Engine is still being put toghether. Should go in this week.

THE BIRDMAN
08-07-2007, 08:01 PM
Engine is still being put toghether. Should go in this week.


Sweet interested how it turns out.

Jay

Sampo
08-15-2007, 02:27 PM
Is it possible to use 25% od pulley set with that supercharger?


I quess it's ok...?

And the pulleys' position will remain same...

ricardoa1
08-20-2007, 08:52 PM
Quote From the person responsible for tuning. If its not ok for me to post your quote please let me know I will take it down and leave just #s. I just did not want to reiterate what you have said.

"Here are the results.

360rwhp @ 5000rpm

445rwtq @ 3400rpm



On a Mustang Dyno with crap air (93% humidity). On a cool, dry day on a
dyno jet it probably would have done 380rwhp with no problem. Maybe a tad
more.



Boost is still falling off about 1psi above 4500rpm, peak is 21.5psi @ about

3500. It doesn't look like belt slip but I'm not sure.



Air temps are pretty high which is causing it to pull timing. I think that
with alcohol injection 400rwhp might be possible and practical to maintain.

Keep in mind also that the motor is new and not really broken in yet. You
might be able to add another 10rwhp after break in.



Car runs great, so I thought maybe this would be some good news for you."

Quote, after me asking if a little overdrive would help"

"The blower makes peak boost at 3500rpm and falls off after that. This means
that the motor is already over running the blower unless it's belt slip
which I have been unable to verify. In either case the blower is making over
20psi throughout the range which is about max for pump gas and no additives.
Adding more OD is going to make more boost down low and may or may not
improve things on the top end. You are already making a very high torque
number which puts cylinder pressure at those rpms at a dangerous level. "


"
The weather is also a big factor right now. It's raining which means
90-100% humidity and is expected to continue as such for most of the week.
Add that to the fact that this was a Mustang Dyno and running a car with
3.08 gears in 4th gear puts a lot of heat and load on the motor. "

The M112 seems to make about the same power as the MPx at the same boost
levels. If it is capable of more power it will be only through more OD and
boost which will mean a 10% crank pulley and race fuel or alcohol. "

This blower definitely comes on quicker than the MPx. It makes boost at a
very low rpm giving instant response whereas the MPx you have to wait for
just a little.

You will have to take the car and break in the motor. Then when weather
improves and you have a chance to put it on a Dyno Jet I think the numbers
will improve significantly. To achieve this power level through cats and a
nice exhaust system given the conditions is very commendable."

Thats the story with my car. If the tuner chooses to add to this by all means you are welcomed. I took on this project to try to help myself but also to pave another road to achieving HP on our cars. Opinions are welcomed. I hope to have my car soon, it should be a very mean street car which is my intended use. I would have loved a little more but maybe my expectations were too high. Maybe at the shootout I can have a better understanding of how the car performs against others.

sinhumane
08-20-2007, 09:08 PM
wait..... WHAAAAA?!?!?!?!?!? so what is the total setup here?

ricardoa1
08-20-2007, 09:10 PM
Cam is
218 Dur and .057 lift.
Stigermier Heads
And Built bottom end Stock compression.
Manifold and return is enlarged.
OD is 15%
All of the other mods are in my signature.

Ira R.
08-20-2007, 09:27 PM
Cam is
218 Dur and .057 lift.
Stigermier Heads
And Built bottom end Stock compression.
Manifold and return is enlarged.
OD is 15%
All of the other mods are in my signature.

Those are great numbers Ricardo! Did I read the mod list correctly, this is with nitrous??

Ira

ricardoa1
08-20-2007, 09:29 PM
Those are great numbers Ricardo! Did I read the mod list correctly, this is with nitrous??

Ira

No power adders.

Ira R.
08-20-2007, 09:34 PM
No power adders.

Au natural!! I love it!! :D
Can't wait to see it in OH.

Ira

Toms-SC
08-20-2007, 11:11 PM
What M112 core did you use?

ricardoa1
08-20-2007, 11:16 PM
What M112 core did you use?

All M112 rotors are the same size, except for the bearing shafts.
But I used the ones out of the lightning, for my set up.

mannysc
08-20-2007, 11:32 PM
I was womderimg what the enlarged return plenum and lower were going on

cool i did a m112 spacer but it was a waste on the early model m90 i did it on .

good to see someone is making a kit of it . price sounds right on maybe a bit low but great price did you open up vee towaRDS THE spacer? to get better air flow ?

anywho looking good nice job

THE BIRDMAN
08-21-2007, 04:36 PM
So all that is used is from the 112 is the rotors and the front snout (after it's modified) then with the spacer it bolts into whatever m90 blower housing you currently have.Or am I missing something.


Jay

XxSlowpokexX
08-21-2007, 05:04 PM
Using MPIII housing

ricardoa1
08-21-2007, 05:22 PM
I was womderimg what the enlarged return plenum and lower were going on

cool i did a m112 spacer but it was a waste on the early model m90 i did it on .

good to see someone is making a kit of it . price sounds right on maybe a bit low but great price did you open up vee towaRDS THE spacer? to get better air flow ?

anywho looking good nice job


The V is not there it matches the MPIII where its also deleted.

ricardoa1
08-21-2007, 05:32 PM
So all that is used is from the 112 is the rotors and the front snout (after it's modified) then with the spacer it bolts into whatever m90 blower housing you currently have.Or am I missing something.


Jay

I used the rotors out of a lightning for MY set up.

Wade, if enough interest is generated will enlarge the M90 Rotors to the size of M112 rotors. Dont have to worry about getting an M112 supercharger or anything from it. Unless you have some laying around and persist on using them.
The snout is from a stock M90 shortened, and the spacer is added. The manifold is enlarged at the Tstat housing/ SC bolt boss, to accomodate the larger housing.

XxSlowpokexX
08-23-2007, 11:05 AM
Ok now how is he going to go about lenghtening the stock m90 rotors is what I want to know..

And what would final pricing be with extended rotors?

Seriouisly...Extend rotors??

ricardoa1
08-23-2007, 12:37 PM
Not sure on the exact details, or process. But he would add a new piece to the ends or end of the M90 rotors. Epoxy the mating surfaces and screw them together. Picture cutting up a rotor into smaller pieces like bread and using the cut up piece to add lenght to the M90. Then balanced.
There has not been too much interest to present Wade with a group buy that will take him away from his mainstream work of rebuilding blowers. So please voice your interest.

XxSlowpokexX
08-23-2007, 02:15 PM
I am working on getting miller to go m112. He wants to shell out for an mpx however he already has an sport and MP inlet..So Im thinking a m112/m90s hybrid should outperform the mpx which is what he wants. If he can get 21 psi hell be doing real good power wise

Quickerthanu
08-23-2007, 04:18 PM
ricardoa1 and DamonSlowpokeBaumann,

Not to Hijack your thread or anything, but you may want to extend this application to AED owners on the TCCOA as well. I know there are many on there that are looking for more power without shelling out the extra 2K for the A/R race kit. I myself have been wanting to do this to my AED supercharged 4.6.

It would probably be less work due to the lower intake manifold is not in the way like it is on an SC.


Just my .02

Thanks
Andy

XxSlowpokexX
08-23-2007, 04:36 PM
I didnt even think of that for my AED car..Hmmmmmmm..Yad still have to do something about that peeshooter inlet it comes with though

ricardoa1
08-23-2007, 04:42 PM
That might be a good idea, but I am not familiar with the kit. I know Damon has one. But Wade nor I have this kit to mock up. Should be no problem but not sure if its doable in terms of clearence.

XxSlowpokexX
08-23-2007, 05:05 PM
Well Rico....If Wade wants to work a lil something out with me I;d gladly let him borrow my AED kit to mock up. It's currently off my car. Hed just need a 4.6 to use for clearance issues. The blower itself actually sits in the valley pan of the engine. He'd be able to make a few bucks for sure as many of teh AED guys would die for it. Personally noone has reached over 400rwhp with the m90S....My engine as it sits with a vortech made over 600rwhp....With the AED.....Probably not 400 as is with m90.

I think he owes me anyway (he doesnt realize it though) becuse that toasted autorotor he got a few years back...to play with....originally came from me! And I never did get it back:eek:

Quickerthanu
08-24-2007, 09:40 AM
Damon,

I currently have my AED kit apart too and I see that you live in NYC and I live in central Illinois and it's not to far for me to drop my kit off there for him to mock it up if you would want to do that?

I understand he owes you a favor but being there first hand always helps.

As for my kit I have already ported and polished the inlet on mine to accept a 75mm throttle body and have ported and polished the blower itself.

If that works for you let me know.

Andy

XxSlowpokexX
08-24-2007, 04:56 PM
Andy by all means go for it. If you live there. It be much more of a hassle for me to do any of that with shipping and all. My plans for the AED inlet included removing the EGR and completely reworking it to make it much larger. Its a definite bottle neck.

Go for it see what happens and let me know!

Quickerthanu
08-24-2007, 09:50 PM
Actually I'm ahead of ya on removing the EGR. I removed that back when I was N/A and just need Dalke to tune the car.....after I get it back and running again.

Like I said I'll try and get in touch with him and see what he says. I dont have a whole lot of scratch to throw at something like this but if he wants to mock it up at a discount that would work for me.

I'm pretty well in touch with alot of the STL guys and I know they talk to Wade every now and then.

XxSlowpokexX
08-27-2007, 12:55 AM
Actually I want to remove the EGR to widen the inlet. WHat did you use to block off the Header>>>???? I just putmy new motor in yesterday and I need something to plug the header with

Quickerthanu
08-27-2007, 09:36 AM
Actually I want to remove the EGR to widen the inlet. WHat did you use to block off the Header>>>???? I just putmy new motor in yesterday and I need something to plug the header with

Widen the inlet?? Are you wanting to make a custom inlet then?


As for the header I found a stainless plug from the hardware store for my JBA headers and put that in the EGR's place. On the inlet I machined a blockoff plate.

XxSlowpokexX
08-27-2007, 05:12 PM
I have the JBA headers as well..Any idea on what the plug was as the headers are in my car now :O)

And yes a custom inlet...That one is sooo small

Quickerthanu
08-27-2007, 05:43 PM
Couldn't tell ya the size because that was like 2 years ago. If I can get a min I'll try and take a picture and show ya.

really a custom inlet.....what are you doing about the DARN heater core tubes that run out of the pass. head that seems to always get in the way?


P.S. PM me about the EGR and AED stuff..... I think this thread is getting off track and not saying on the m112 rotor upgrade. Which which will be super cool if we can do it!!!:D

sinhumane
08-29-2007, 08:09 PM
would this be able to be run on a stock car, with an opened up exhaust, and bigger intake, maf, tb? at lower boost, i would imagine, like 15-16 psi? would still see pretty big gains, ya? :)

XxSlowpokexX
09-05-2007, 12:08 PM
No reason why not

panic
09-05-2007, 06:05 PM
Sorry, pointless.

XxSlowpokexX
09-06-2007, 12:10 AM
This may be something to be looked into. The GTP guys have had good success with this swap however it doesnt mean its ideal.

Have Wade look into it

panic
09-06-2007, 10:06 AM
Sorry, pointless

sizemoremk
09-06-2007, 11:07 AM
http://victorylibrary.com/graphics/M90-2nd port.jpg

Wouldn't that create a huge restriction of the exit? Perhaps the underside could be tapered to help guide the air back out...

panic
09-06-2007, 11:55 AM
Sorry, pointless.

ricardoa1
09-06-2007, 01:03 PM
I dont think this is an issue if Wade is using extended M90 rotors. The only one that might suffer from what you are saying is my set up with the actual M112 rotors. These could be reasons to my unexplained need for for extra OD. We will have to see what kind of boost #s the real M112 will produce in Kens car with the same OD. But I have a feeling it will be similar to my set up, meaning that this is only a minor issue.

panic
09-06-2007, 01:45 PM
Sorry, pointless.

XxSlowpokexX
09-06-2007, 03:15 PM
Start a thread its very interesting. I dont like the idea of extended m90 rotors however

ricardoa1
09-06-2007, 03:51 PM
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26047&d=1176740524

Here is a picture showing the angle you are talking about. Mind you neither one as been ported. To the naked eyes they seem to be almost no difference in angle aside from the larger opening. The only reason for the twist is so that the air is scooped from the rear of the charger and out the top. If this was a normal blower top and bottom openings then there would be no twist. So the opening could be round and air would still make its way out, although not ideal it would work.

panic
09-06-2007, 04:51 PM
Sorry, pointless

panic
09-06-2007, 05:25 PM
Sorry, pointless.

sinhumane
09-06-2007, 05:47 PM
*subscribing, with popcorn.... :)

ricardoa1
09-06-2007, 06:48 PM
Those were just my observations, I stand corrected on the Helix design. I am not an Eaton engineer. But it could also have to do with the strength of the rotor to lessen the chance of the rotors colliding with each other. As you can see the from the two older models that you showed the opening is not rectangular its simply wide open for air to move in any direction, so what I was trying to say is that the opening variances are not extremely important.

You are more then welcome to add things to the set up, but as it stands there is not enough interest for its current form, where cost is the main problem with custom parts for the SC.

XxSlowpokexX
09-07-2007, 03:32 AM
I think whats killing people is the price...Besides the cost of lets an mpx inlet and case there is the cost of a set of m112 rotors and Wades costs to make an adapater and convert the rotors for use in the m90 case. Off course price has never stopped people from buying things however I think everyone is waiting on you to make some big numbers:O) If you hit that magic 400rwhp number everyone is talking about I think this will definitely take off, Because you have to at least surpass the highest m90 number out there in thw same trim level (meaning no nitrous and alcohol or no alcohol injection)

Any updates on that?

XR7 Dave
09-07-2007, 08:21 AM
The M112 conversion does make better numbers than an M90. It brings on more boost sooner and creates more torque. As for a peak HP number I believe Ricardo already said that with a brand new motor with less than 50 miles on it the tuner didn't feel it was responsible to attempt to wring out the top end. 360rwhp on a Mustang dyno is very respectable. One of the problems with making more power than that on pump gas is the accompanying boost level. It is going to be very difficult to make a lot more power or boost than what he did without something to increase octane levels.

Remember, this is not a stock motor and the 20-21psi that was observed came through Steig heads and headers. There is a big difference between that 20psi and 20psi being recorded on a stock motor.

On the other spectrum consider the cam in use on this car. The car is said to idle smooth as stock with no noticeable lope. It may not make a big difference in HP but I'm sure it makes some. I think if you really consider the package you will agree that even though he didn't yet eclipse the 400rwhp number, he has attained power levels that are not common in any sense of the word. I think a little race fuel and some good weather is all that would be needed to hit 400rwhp on a Dynojet.

ricardoa1
09-07-2007, 10:31 AM
"Panic"
I did not mind your comments on the subject, not sure why you deleted your threads, you brought up some interesting observations on the matter, that would make for further discussion. I am not trying to misrepresent this kit cause I am the only one using it. If that was the case I would just keep it a secret and be happy with it. It is what it is. I think I will be happy with it since my main consern was getting drivability back on my car that I was not able to get with bigger cams, regardless of tune.
Although I am still waiting for the real M112 kit that one of our previous vendors still making me. Again we will have to see what Kens kit does but I have a feeling it will not be magic and not that far from my results. Its not easy to get to 400Rwhp supercharged on 93 octane. When we get into turbos then we will start to see that 500RWhp with ease.

90SC BIG BLOCK
11-09-2007, 05:49 PM
1.P.M me to get that set-up .
2.Can you put the smallest pulley you can find on it for me ?
3.May be your tune is wrong , and you didn't start with a stock engine , and tuning it to the cam shaft not ,the old one . A pro racer here was pissed at himself because he had been doing that to his car and now he makes alot of power .
4.Wil you warrenty the blower and intake ?
5.Will it fit under the stock hood ?

ricardoa1
11-10-2007, 01:42 AM
PM, sent......

getblown
04-03-2008, 07:35 PM
I know its been awhile and Ive searched on the subject, but any update on the m112 kit?

jOe