shootout rule change

Kevin Leitem

Registered User
just wanted to see what people thought about this. here is last years prostreet rules:

5) Pro Street This class is for the car that pushes the definition of an SC. A race car that makes no excuses.

Engine. 3.8/4.2L based Ford V6 engine.

Body. Any MN12 body allowed.

Tires. Unrestricted

Suspension. Unrestricted.

Interior. Must meet NHRA/IHRA safety rules.

Index. None.

this year the committee decided to not allow a solid axle rear suspension. kinda funny as I am the only one with a solid axle. safety is a main concern of mine since my car sees track duty weekly. but they seem to think I have an unfair advantage with this. and changed the rules to keep me out. but i don't run an AR, nitrous, nor alky injection as others, but i am the one with the advantage. as people start to go faster they will realize the IRS just won't do the job. i just got to that point sooner.

so i just want to see what eveybody thinks. is it fair to change the rules to keep out one car out of a class that was supposed to be for, and i quote "Pro Street This class is for the car that pushes the definition of an SC. A race car that makes no excuses"?
 
I think a solid Axle SHOULD be allowed, it just seems to me that the rules are getting adjusted yearly for no real reason.

Although I dont know much about that class, just my opinion.

Mike
 
if its the all out class it should be allowed. Not only that but for people that may have been building cars to fit witin a certain class a last minute rule change is far from fair. This is for fun afterall. Right??
 
Agreed Pro Street

"A race car that makes no excuses."

I agree that you should be allowed in Pro Street.

Scott
 
I would like to see the current Pro-Street to remove the suspension limitation. When I look at the rules I'm seeing the only alternative if you have a 3.8 sc block but a non irs rear is Outlaw. That puts into a path with all out v8 nitro-methane spewing equipment. (not that any show up)

I'd like to see a place for the guys that take the 3.8sc to the limit that keeps the v8 based vehicle out of the group.

Now outlaw may have originally intended to be specifc to the SC cars, but as we have seen, v8 cars have been helping the event stay full. Is the Pro-street the natural progression of the Mod 3 class? If so, after what Mod3 allows, isn't open suspension the natural progression for the Pro Street?

Now there could be more to the term Pro Street that fits more with racing than I'm familiar with. I know the key to these types of alignments of rules it to provide groupings for people to build towards. Do we assume a non IRS suspension is going to give an unfair advantage? Or do we wait to see that happen?
 
Personally I dont think its a case of "pushing the definition of an SC". Truly an M90 3.8 based MN12 modded to the limit of technology is pushing the "Definition" in my mind. But I am not a racer, tuner, fabber of the sorts.

Now " Prostreet" ? Thats " A Race Car That Makes No Excuses" Thus converting an IRS car to a solid axle.

The shoot-out is really based around an SC or XR7, an SC equipped MN12 platform. Does the "Official Site" Not provide the history of that. Do the T-shirts not re-iterate that? Doesn't The huge amount of members of the SCCOA enforce that?

Whats the differance between an SC with a 347 Turbo Stroker, and an SC with a M90 and a solid axle? Nuttin, Nodda, Zilch!

Is a Cobra with a solid axle the same as a Cobra with an IRS? Ford Thinks So!
 
I think a solid Axle SHOULD be allowed, it just seems to me that the rules are getting adjusted yearly for no real reason.

Mike

Mike, you raise a good question.

Why have the rules changed each year?

In 2003 we had "mod counts". Each mod had a point value and once you got past a certain point you were bumped up a class. Obviously opinions vary about the effectiveness of each mod. This made some people very upset. We had to change.

In 2004 we thought we had a great set of rules with classes that were clearly defined on what you could or couldn't do. We found out at the event that it wasn't so easy to determine who had what. We ended up penalizing people who shouldn't have been because they didn't know what mods they really had and we ended up letting people with illegal mods in classes and didn't find out till afterwards. It was then that we realized we needed to have simple, easy to enforce rules.

In 2005 we thought once again we had things sorted out. To this day I think we did a pretty good job that year but we ended up with some classes that had no participants and other classes were very large. Apparently our divisions weren't as good as we'd hoped.

In 2006 we stayed with mostly the same rule set but there were some things we still were having trouble enforcing (like weight restrictions). How Tim Keiss ended up having to run against Kevin was ridiculous and we (the committee) vowed not to let that happen again. We also saw an unnecessarily large Mod 1 class with people skirting both edges of a wide index range.

So this year we tried not to change much but we did see that the index process was working well, we just seemed to need more divisions. That basically sums up the 2007 rules. Same as last year, ditched the restrictions that put a 13 sec car against an 11 sec car and added an index to spread out the cars more. With more classes the competition will be closer together and more people will have a chance to win. We feel that is good for everyone.

We don't want to keep changing the rules. But, we are attempting to do something that no other car club has ever done successfully - promote a heads up racing venue for the entire club! I think we have something very special and unique, much like our cars. We are trying very hard to keep that together.

Clearly there is a lot more that goes into making up rules than just tossing darts. We are doing what we can and we are listening to what people say.
 
Dave, you didn't address Kevin not being able to run in Pro Street. The rules state "Suspension. Unrestricted." That should mean solid-axle cars are allowed. Either you need to list suspension as IRS only or let Kevin in.

IMO, if you decide to not allow solid-axle cars, you should also not allow people with coil-overs in the front or tubular k-members, as these are also major suspension modifications and should be classified similarly to swapping to a solid rear axle.
 
Dave, you didn't address Kevin not being able to run in Pro Street. The rules state "Suspension. Unrestricted." That should mean solid-axle cars are allowed. Either you need to list suspension as IRS only or let Kevin in.

pablo,

The 2007 rules explicitly state:
Pro Street: All rules from preceding class apply except as noted.
Engine:
Same as Mod 3
Body:
Same as Super Stock
Tires:
Same as Super Stock
Suspension:
Any fully independent 4 wheel suspension design.
Interior:
Same as Super Stock
Index:
None

This is the issue that has Kevin bent out of shape. He built his car to be safer with an expectation that it would fit in certain rules. The rules changed, causing his decisions to place him outside of where he wanted to be.

Now there are valid points to making restrictions within a class to enhance competitiveness. You don't want races to be one sided and pre-ordained if it's clear up front.

Due to the low numbers (relatively speaking) this is a fairly young event, so working out the rules to ensure a competitive event is likely to continue to be an ongoing effort.
 
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Question

I have my battery in the trunk of my car, do have to have some kind of switch outside the trunk or can it be inside the trunk? Since it's going to be NHRA/IHRA hardcore I'm guessing yes. Is there Summit Racing kits for this mod or do it yourself hardware write up any where? Any help would be great!

Thanks guys!

Josh
 
Just an idea... if the commitee is trying to prevent cars which are limited to 11.50 by not having a roll bar from having to compete with cars that can legally go faster, the next highest Mod class could have an ET cut-off of 11.50. This would keep Kevin in Pro-Street (which I think is appropriate) and give the high 11 to mid 12 second cars a place to battle.
 
I have my battery in the trunk of my car, do have to have some kind of switch outside the trunk or can it be inside the trunk? Since it's going to be NHRA/IHRA hardcore I'm guessing yes. Is there Summit Racing kits for this mod or do it yourself hardware write up any where? Any help would be great!

Thanks guys!

Josh

Josh, To be NHRA legal, you have to have a shut off switch if your battery is in the trunk. It's a pain in the but, yet if you buy the Moroso switch and follow the directions, you should be able to do it fine.
 
Josh, To be NHRA legal, you have to have a shut off switch if your battery is in the trunk. It's a pain in the but, yet if you buy the Moroso switch and follow the directions, you should be able to do it fine.

I did a search on Summit and there it is, thanks!
 
Mike, you raise a good question.

Why have the rules changed each year?

In 2003 we had "mod counts". Each mod had a point value and once you got past a certain point you were bumped up a class. Obviously opinions vary about the effectiveness of each mod. This made some people very upset. We had to change.

In 2004 we thought we had a great set of rules with classes that were clearly defined on what you could or couldn't do. We found out at the event that it wasn't so easy to determine who had what. We ended up penalizing people who shouldn't have been because they didn't know what mods they really had and we ended up letting people with illegal mods in classes and didn't find out till afterwards. It was then that we realized we needed to have simple, easy to enforce rules.

In 2005 we thought once again we had things sorted out. To this day I think we did a pretty good job that year but we ended up with some classes that had no participants and other classes were very large. Apparently our divisions weren't as good as we'd hoped.

In 2006 we stayed with mostly the same rule set but there were some things we still were having trouble enforcing (like weight restrictions). How Tim Keiss ended up having to run against Kevin was ridiculous and we (the committee) vowed not to let that happen again. We also saw an unnecessarily large Mod 1 class with people skirting both edges of a wide index range.

So this year we tried not to change much but we did see that the index process was working well, we just seemed to need more divisions. That basically sums up the 2007 rules. Same as last year, ditched the restrictions that put a 13 sec car against an 11 sec car and added an index to spread out the cars more. With more classes the competition will be closer together and more people will have a chance to win. We feel that is good for everyone.

We don't want to keep changing the rules. But, we are attempting to do something that no other car club has ever done successfully - promote a heads up racing venue for the entire club! I think we have something very special and unique, much like our cars. We are trying very hard to keep that together.

Clearly there is a lot more that goes into making up rules than just tossing darts. We are doing what we can and we are listening to what people say.


Dave I dont know much about any of the other shootouts. Im only looking at last years rules, and didnt think anything needed changed.

Im not saying that I dont agree with you in the fact that it wasnt even a "race" between Tim and Kevin. I understand that too. I too must say, that I do like the Index, and that it worked great last year. Mod 1 was pretty big last year, and think it was fitting to add more classes.

Im just going to stay out of this one and leave it up to you guys to figure out, all I was saying is that he should be allowed to race with all of the other V6 cars.
 
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How about a non-prize bragging rights only class for tow vehicles? that could get interesting.... Only restriction being you had to tow your supercoupe there with it..
 
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