Alright - What;s the official word on Copper Spray for head gaskets?

DrFishbone

DrFishbone

SCCoA Member
I'm getting ready to put plain ole Felpro head gaskets on my car - the ones that come with the "upper engine gasket kit". I haven't been able to find a straight answer on whether or not using copper spray (such as that offered by Permatex) on these headgaskets is a good or bad idea.

This engine should be in the 300-350hp range, and I will be using ARP head studs. Not thinking of power adders, but maybe an alky injection system in the future.
 
If using the composite gaskets, I would put two coats of Permatex copper spray on each side of the gasket and allow it to dry enough to become tacky before installing.

David

PS: Why aren't you using the MLS Permatorque gaskets ?
 
I only used copper spray on copper gaskets to help seal them. What is the reasoning behind using it on standard felpros..Not saying ist wrong I;ve just never doen it before
 
I used copper spray when I did mine last month, on standard composite Fel Pros. Followed the same instructions given by Dave, also did the torque sequence he has posted also.
 
I'm not planning on using MLS gaskets because:

1) Additional price
2) I've already got the crank, pistons, camshaft, etc in the block. I read that you're supposed to have an ultra-smooth deck - the block I'm using has already had the deck milled from a previous rebuild- not that it should matter. Is this true? Certainly that finish cannot be attained with the pistons, etc. already in.
3) I've already got the standard ones.

Now...if I had it to do over again, I probably would... and I probably should. I don't plan on racing the car and revving it like crazy. Mainly just daily-driving and possibly the occasional shoot-out race. :D

Is it a totally bad idea?
 
I sprayed the copper on the head and deck and set the gaskets in while it was still tacky. The theory being the copper spray will allow sealing any rough surfaces in the deck or head, as well as give some flexibility to head movements.

Stock gaskets are fine if you are just gonna drive the car like it was a stock car. You'll likely have to replace the gaskets again down the road, but you'll get another 80k or so miles out before you need to again. Keep on top the the cooling system and you may even go longer.
 
DrFishbone said:
I'm not planning on using MLS gaskets because:

1) Additional price
2) I've already got the crank, pistons, camshaft, etc in the block. I read that you're supposed to have an ultra-smooth deck - the block I'm using has already had the deck milled from a previous rebuild- not that it should matter. Is this true? Certainly that finish cannot be attained with the pistons, etc. already in.
3) I've already got the standard ones.

Now...if I had it to do over again, I probably would... and I probably should. I don't plan on racing the car and revving it like crazy. Mainly just daily-driving and possibly the occasional shoot-out race. :D

Is it a totally bad idea?
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I'm using the late model F-150 4.2 MLS gaskets (uncoated) on my motor and haven't had any problems keeping them sealed against a block that was resurfaced for use with conventional composite gaskets (visable milling serations) when rebuilt back in 2001. I use a couple coats of copper spray on the block side of the gaskets to help them seal. But if using the Mustang 3.8 Permatorque gaskets with the rubber like coating, I would install them dry and wouldn't be worried about them leaking.

The good thing about the MLS gaskets is they don't get weak over time from heat and corrosion like the conventional gaskets do. It's not a bad idea to use the composite gaskets, but I think the MLS gaskets would be a lot better.

David
 
The 4.2 MLS gaskets are the ones that need coolant holes cut out to fit our cars, right? Are they as expensive as the rubber coated Mustang MLS gaskets?

Well, I'm probably just going to give the plain ole composite gaskets with some copper spray a try. Maybe I'll have a definitive answer on whether or not it was a good idea in a few years. :rolleyes:
 
David Neibert said:
I'm using the late model F-150 4.2 MLS gaskets (uncoated) on my motor and haven't had any problems keeping them sealed against a block that was resurfaced for use with conventional composite gaskets (visable milling serations) when rebuilt back in 2001. I use a couple coats of copper spray on the block side of the gaskets to help them seal. But if using the Mustang 3.8 Permatorque gaskets with the rubber like coating, I would install them dry and wouldn't be worried about them leaking.

The good thing about the MLS gaskets is they don't get weak over time from heat and corrosion like the conventional gaskets do. It's not a bad idea to use the composite gaskets, but I think the MLS gaskets would be a lot better.

David
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I also have the late model f-150 4.2 gaskets and wouldn't think of using composites again.I have the complete magnum powers setup and have had it for 4 yrs and no trouble.I'm putting the MPX setup on when it arrives.They cost more but the peace of mind is worth it.
 
DrFishbone said:
The 4.2 MLS gaskets are the ones that need coolant holes cut out to fit our cars, right? Are they as expensive as the rubber coated Mustang MLS gaskets?

Well, I'm probably just going to give the plain ole composite gaskets with some copper spray a try. Maybe I'll have a definitive answer on whether or not it was a good idea in a few years. :rolleyes:
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I bought the right and left side for a 97 f-150 and they were identical to the ones for my 90 SC except for what they are made of,of course.Didn't have to cut anything.For the 100.00+- that it cost it's worth it.
I still have the composites that came with the kit I bought before I knew MLS gaskets were available.I threw them away.
 
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The only rework required to the F-150 4.2 gaskets was the removal of one of the brass rivets for one side of the motor. Several of the coolant ports are differint sizes, but don't need to be changed.

David
 
NettlesD used the black duct tape on just the head instead of head gaskets. He cut out the holes for his coolant. To cover the lines between the strips of tape, he used scotch tape short ways across the head. It did not work...he was sad:(

Chris
 
He should have used white cloth tape instead of Scotch. Scotch tape will snap when a small amount of force is applied. :)
 
Well...the funny thing is that we ended up popping the clear tape when we were trying to do this...http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49991 and when it was all said and done, we ended up with this...http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82176&highlight=shot+peen. All I can say is that I am glad that Duane is made of solid gold. You would think he would be mad and all. But, we just pushed it up on the trailer and moved it to the shop down the street. I think they are putting some kind of big block in it now. The numbers 4, 5, and 4 come to mind.

Chris
 
Matt i'd just get the perma-tourque's... I picked the whole perma tourque uper gasket set up from Orielly for $90! everybody else wants $120+ for the same thing! I can get you a part # if you want.. Let me know if you need an extra set of hands when you go to put that motor in! Mine was a PITA with 2 people...
 
Jacob_Royer said:
Matt i'd just get the perma-tourque's... I picked the whole perma tourque uper gasket set up from Orielly for $90! everybody else wants $120+ for the same thing! I can get you a part # if you want.. Let me know if you need an extra set of hands when you go to put that motor in! Mine was a PITA with 2 people...
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Just to be clear, "Perma-Torque" doesn't mean "MLS". That $90 kit was just the standard SC gasket set. MLS gaskets do not come in sets.

I don't know why anyone would use copper spray on a composite gasket. That makes no sense at all. On an MLS gasket if you are putting them on a non-machined block then it should be beneficial but I would not use spray on a block that has been properly machined.

But everyone has an opinion so take that for what it's worth.
 
XR7 Dave said:
Just to be clear, "Perma-Torque" doesn't mean "MLS". That $90 kit was just the standard SC gasket set. MLS gaskets do not come in sets.
Click to expand...

That is very correct. Perma-Torque has become Federal-Mogul speak for any gasket that is effectively reusable due to their expanded use of a special thermoplastic substance to either coat, or place compression rings on gasket surfaces. The advantage being that once the torque is set, it effectively is unnecessary to re-torque it as the gaskets don't compress over time like a standard gasket does.
 
Mike8675309 said:
That is very correct. Perma-Torque has become Federal-Mogul speak for any gasket that is effectively reusable due to their expanded use of a special thermoplastic substance to either coat, or place compression rings on gasket surfaces. The advantage being that once the torque is set, it effectively is unnecessary to re-torque it as the gaskets don't compress over time like a standard gasket does.
Click to expand...


Not quite. Perma Torque gaskets are not re-useable. It just means they don't need re-torquing.
 
I had a set of dana gaskets and they were crap graphite gaskets.. The perma tourque set was ALOT nicer than the other set that Orielly had from felpro... They had another felpro set for SC's and it quality wise was not alot better than the dana graphite ones...
 
Jacob_Royer said:
I had a set of dana gaskets and they were crap graphite gaskets.. The perma tourque set was ALOT nicer than the other set that Orielly had from felpro... They had another felpro set for SC's and it quality wise was not alot better than the dana graphite ones...
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All Felpro gaskets for the SC are either graphite or MLS. There is no confusing the two as the graphite ones have a soft gasket like layer on top with visible stainless steel fire rings and the MLS gaskets are simply 4 layer embossed stainless steel held together with brass rivets. Graphite is actually the BEST composite material for aluminum head motors. There are other 3.8 V6 gaskets but the good ones are all graphite.
 
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