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rtebeau
12-10-2007, 07:43 PM
freezing rain, does it get any better then this?? haha
thought i would be able to at least drive around a little today but i couldn't even get off my street it was like i was driving around a frozen lake...(guess my town forgot about my street when they were salting haha) hopefully tmm is a better day

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-11-2007, 05:14 AM
thursday gonna suck

the-big-e
12-11-2007, 10:21 AM
Come on GLOBAL WARMING......:D

They are calling for 80 today in NC.....

I knew this drought would be good for something.....:p

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-11-2007, 12:09 PM
no no no global warming bad lol, i'm taking a class where i learn all about greenhouse gases and global warming and crap like that. And to see what is going on is ludacris to hear. 11 hottest years in earths 4.6 billion years of history have occured in the last 12 years. you can't tell me thats not scary. Sea level is increaing every year and land glaciers are melting at increasing paces. In 60 years at the average pace earth is going now, we will be run completely dry of drillable oil and gas. Get ready for gas prices to get worse and worse and to see less and less snow. This stuff if for real and its kinda scary if you think about it. :eek:

txsc
12-11-2007, 11:39 PM
no no no global warming bad lol, i'm taking a class where i learn all about greenhouse gases and global warming and crap like that. And to see what is going on is ludacris to hear. 11 hottest years in earths 4.6 billion years of history have occured in the last 12 years. you can't tell me thats not scary. Sea level is increaing every year and land glaciers are melting at increasing paces. In 60 years at the average pace earth is going now, we will be run completely dry of drillable oil and gas. Get ready for gas prices to get worse and worse and to see less and less snow. This stuff if for real and its kinda scary if you think about it. :eek:

Man, I feel bad for you guys in the Mid-West and up North. Just talked to a buddy in Illinois, and they're getting hammered. It was 82 here today. We're looking for a warmer, dryer winter this year. After the wet summer we had, that's music to my ears! "Global warming" is junk science. Look for the hidden agenda...

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-12-2007, 12:07 AM
hidden agenda?

I guess that makes just as much sense, you never know....

V8Supercoupe
12-12-2007, 12:37 AM
"Global warming" is junk science. Look for the hidden agenda...

Glad someone else said it. I've read and heard there's as much evidence for the earth getting colder as it is getting warmer.

Although I don't have any resources to back it up....as I am trying to get the info, but.....I was speaking to someone the other day who was listening to a show that actually explained that pollution DOES NOT cause our ozone layer harm and in fact has closed in some areas. The program targeted the sun and solar flares as to what is effecting our ozone.....

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-12-2007, 01:16 AM
So you wanna talk ozone eh, well if you are really interested than read this...
First off, ozone depletion is an increasing risk at his point. In present time ozone depletion is at a greater rate than ozone formation.

Ozone is a compound located in the stratosphere that absorbs ultraviolet radiations (UV's), without it, we would not be able to go outside during the day becuase short wavelengthed UV rays are extremely deadly, not even plants would survive.

Ozone formation:
ozone is produced naturally in the stratosphere by the breakdown of oxygen from the absorption of UV radiation and the recombination of atomic oxygens (O) and diatomic oxygen (02) Basically, where light shines, ozone is being produced.

Ozone Destruction:
ozone is destroyed naturally by a process called UV photolysis (won't go into it, long process, just go with it) Ozone is also destroyed naturally by reactions catalyzed (a spiral) by other compounds - Chlorine, which is the main ingredient for ozone breakdown. This reaction has a net result
= O3 (ozone) + O (atomic) forms -- 2O 2... Because of the catalyst, this reaction repeats over and over again.

The reason for the large hole in the ozone layer is because ozone depletion occurs over the antartic where we see direct closest UV rays, we see formation near the tropics where we see a consistent light....


In conclusion all these reactions are seriously effected by CO2 concentration on our planet. 11 of the hottest years in our planets 4.6 billion year history have occured in the last 12 years. Since the industrial revolution began, CO2 concentrations have rised 100 parts per million (aka ALOT) methane concentrations have doubled, N20 concentrations have risen 40 ppm (aka ALOT). Earth's global average surface temp. has been on a constant rise and hasn't shown any sign of stopping rising 1.42*C, this may not seem like a lot buy compared to earths history, this is extremely abnormal.

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-12-2007, 01:46 AM
you are correct pollution has absolutely nothing to do with ozone depletion, but changes in the solar constants meaning SUNSPOTS do have an effect on our ozone depleting but this just goes back to UV output.. There is way more details and crap i didn't metion but i could write a 200 page book on it and its just too much...if you have any questions though i pretty positive i could answer

V8Supercoupe
12-12-2007, 09:22 AM
good reading. I really know nothing about it. I still need to find out the resource that my brother in law was speaking of, cause I would like to read that as well.

the-big-e
12-12-2007, 11:15 AM
One thing you have to consider is the fact that we have only been keeping detailed records of weather for just a few hundred years of earths 4.6 billion year history.......

There really isn't enough information and data to suggest that what we are going through isn't just normal fluctuations in earths climate......

However, I do believe that that we could be accelerating an event that would have occurred naturally........

There are just too many things that are out or our control that can have an influence on global weather......

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-12-2007, 11:42 AM
One thing you have to consider is the fact that we have only been keeping detailed records of weather for just a few hundred years of earths 4.6 billion year history.......

There really isn't enough information and data to suggest that what we are going through isn't just normal fluctuations in earths climate......

However, I do believe that that we could be accelerating an event that would have occurred naturally........

There are just too many things that are out or our control that can have an influence on global weather......

Actually big e that is incorrect. Glaciers in the antartic and north pole are miles deep and millions of years old. Ice cores in these glaciers that are drilled contain bubble pockets in them. The farther they drill, the farther they go back into history. Inside these bubbles in the ice cores scientists drill contain certain levels of CO2 concentrations, O2 concentrations, dust particles, aerosols, and 100's of others. Measuring these concentration levels gives all the information we need including the average surface temp at that time, average precipitation rates and evaportaion rates, type of weather we were seeing... Although we have only been directly studying and analyzing weather conditions on our planet for the last 200 years, we have all the information we need from drilled ice cores in glaciers.

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-12-2007, 11:47 AM
you are however correct when you said we are accelerating an event that would have occured naturally. but like txsc said "Hidden Agenda" everything has away of balancing out--- At the increasing pace of our global average intake of oil and gas, Earth will be completely dry of drillable oil within the next 60 years. And that is a FACT, not an estimate. when this happens CO2 emissions from humans will be almost cut from the equation and eventually we will need a new less harmful way to provide energy...

V8Supercoupe
12-12-2007, 12:09 PM
Technically......not certain if we'll ever run out.


For one....I am sure there is an abundance that we wil never be able to even extract
Two...Geologically speaking....some, over time will be generated
Three, given that the price is going up like it has, chances are it will be replaced with alternatives before we ever exhaust all of it.
How exactly do we know what's available globally? I have heard that what we have up in Alaska is a huge resevoir that we can't touch..(yawn, another ridiculous topic in itself)

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-12-2007, 12:31 PM
Technically......not certain if we'll ever run out.


For one....I am sure there is an abundance that we wil never be able to even extract
Two...Geologically speaking....some, over time will be generated
Three, given that the price is going up like it has, chances are it will be replaced with alternatives before we ever exhaust all of it.
How exactly do we know what's available globally? I have heard that what we have up in Alaska is a huge resevoir that we can't touch..(yawn, another ridiculous topic in itself)


i said.... DRILLABLE oil, of course there is plenty of other oil but the cost to extract this oil from rock sedements is ridiculously expensive and will just not be possible to process without an emense budgit.. i'm sorry i'm just going with what i've learned about in school i don't know about where it is or how they know how much we have but i do know what he said and this guy knows his stuff lol

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-12-2007, 12:38 PM
here are some policies our government and other countries around the world have considered:

A DIRECT REGULATION OF EMISSIONS:
This will provide a predictable level of emissions everywhere. However doing this will cause no incentive for technological innovations. Very cumbersome and can also lead to high overall compliance costs.

CARBON TAXES:
Set price for fossil fuels. A tax that pays for the true enviromental costs of emissions of fossil fuels. However, this would be politically difficult to establish but as a whole can be made revenue-neutral.

TRADABLE PERMITS:
Permits issued and sold to emitters. Permit prices will fluctuate as demand varies. Efficient companies can sell their excess permits which provides incentive to create more efficient technology. The success rate of these depends on cap, participation, and compliance.

INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS:
A schedule of reduced emissions between all countries. Very unlikely to work. We would have to coordinate reductions, and make sure every country is following regulations. No competitive advantage here as well.

V8Supercoupe
12-12-2007, 01:21 PM
Im being argumentative Eric. Don't take anything I say too personally like I am trying to prove you wrong.

Im one of these Azzholes who believes colleges educate based on opinion and personal agenda. It's rare I believe anything I hear unless it's based on a mathematical equation.

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-12-2007, 01:33 PM
Im being argumentative Eric. Don't take anything I say too personally like I am trying to prove you wrong.

Im one of these Azzholes who believes colleges educate based on opinion and personal agenda. It's rare I believe anything I hear unless it's based on a mathematical equation.

o no i'm not lol i didn't mean to make it seem like i was taking it personal hahaha..... but everything i'm talking about is scientific fact and if you really are interested in it everything i have mentioned can be read into way more in depth detail by looking at: The Earth System 2nd Ed. by Kasting, Crane, and Kumb. i personally am not interested in this stuff at all lol i just know so much about it cuz i had to take theses stupid classes as gen ed requirements.

txsc
12-12-2007, 01:36 PM
There are oil reserves located, mapped and reachable that will extend us waaaaaaaaaay beyond 60 years. In the Gulf of Mexico, in Alaska, in the Western US, and that's just the begining. It's just that political agendas get in the way of us actually being able to get at it.

And, supply isn't really the biggest constraint anyway. It's refining capacity. We haven't built a new refinery in 30 years. It's time to increase capacity, and upgrade the plants we have for safety and efficiency. This would directly corrolate to reduction in fuel prices. If we could drill our own oil, and refine it efficiently here at home, we wouldn't need to buy it from less-than-desireable sources.

When one volcano eruption can dump more trash into the atmoshpere than anything we've done since the industrial revolution, I'm not buying that we're the root cause of "global warming". And, as stated, there's just as much evidence that we're in the middle of "global cooling".

Just discussing; not arguing : )

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-12-2007, 02:26 PM
There are oil reserves located, mapped and reachable that will extend us waaaaaaaaaay beyond 60 years. In the Gulf of Mexico, in Alaska, in the Western US, and that's just the begining. It's just that political agendas get in the way of us actually being able to get at it.

And, supply isn't really the biggest constraint anyway. It's refining capacity. We haven't built a new refinery in 30 years. It's time to increase capacity, and upgrade the plants we have for safety and efficiency. This would directly corrolate to reduction in fuel prices. If we could drill our own oil, and refine it efficiently here at home, we wouldn't need to buy it from less-than-desireable sources.

When one volcano eruption can dump more trash into the atmoshpere than anything we've done since the industrial revolution, I'm not buying that we're the root cause of "global warming". And, as stated, there's just as much evidence that we're in the middle of "global cooling".

Just discussing; not arguing : )

i'm not to sure about the first two paragraphs don't really know what ur talking about lol :D but what you said about volcano eruptions is extremely true. Volcanic eruptions with enough force eject an emense amount of aerosols and sulfuric acids into the stratosphere. this in turns puts an abundance of sulfate particles into the stratosphere which in turn reflects nearly all of the suns rays back into space giving us no heat. Not good for ozone not good for earth. This has nothing to do with global warming but it does have an effect on earths temperature and carbon cycle. If you have ever heard of the year 1816: The Year Without Summer was caused because of the volcano Tambora releasing so many aerosols into the stratosphere.

And we are not the root cause for global warming by any means. Its a natural even that we are just making worse...let me see if i can get a graph for you to make you see what i mean..

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-12-2007, 02:29 PM
found it:

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff251/ericlacivita/global-blended-temp-pg.gif" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

txsc
12-12-2007, 09:43 PM
i'm not to sure about the first two paragraphs don't really know what ur talking about lol :D but what you said about volcano eruptions is extremely true. Volcanic eruptions with enough force eject an emense amount of aerosols and sulfuric acids into the stratosphere. this in turns puts an abundance of sulfate particles into the stratosphere which in turn reflects nearly all of the suns rays back into space giving us no heat. Not good for ozone not good for earth. This has nothing to do with global warming but it does have an effect on earths temperature and carbon cycle. If you have ever heard of the year 1816: The Year Without Summer was caused because of the volcano Tambora releasing so many aerosols into the stratosphere.

And we are not the root cause for global warming by any means. Its a natural even that we are just making worse...let me see if i can get a graph for you to make you see what i mean..

Well, what I was refering to was your statement that we'd be out of drillable oil in 60 years. My point is that we KNOW where ample oil reserves are right now. And we have more than adequate technology and equipment to extract it. What we don't have are cooperative laws to allow us to recover said reserves. The constraint is not technological, it's political.

Regarding your graph; statistically, there's really not enough data there to draw any conclusion. However, at a high level, what I'm able to see is a short segment of a long-term cyclical trend. It appears that the graph would have crossed zero about 1860. It cycled through -.4 around 1910, 0 in 1960, .4 in 2005, will cross zero again around 2050, and to -.4 around 2100. I don't see anything there except a long-period cycle. If, by 2050, it hasn't statistically trended down as predicted, then there'd be reason to change the assumption.

The flaw in the graph is that they're trying to equate a corrolation to cause-and-effect. A corrolation is just an observation of two or more things that happen simultaneously. A cause-and-effect relationship is one that statistically proves that an "x" (input) directly causes a change in a "Y" (output or result).

It's like saying that since roosters crow at dawn (x), then crowing roosters cause the earth to rotate, or the sun to rise (Y). There IS a corrolation, but the cause-and-effect logic is obviously flawed.

Same thing with trying to force a cause-and-effect relationship of man-made emissions to "global warming". Some think they have found a corrolation, but they have not proven the cause-and-effect statistically or scientifically. There are other things that are known and unknown to cause the cyclical effect, such as sun phenomena, etc.

Anyway, this thread has gone waaaaay off track, and we'd better wrap it up; I have enjoyed the discussion, however! Just beware of skewed, fabricated or mis-interpreted data, always question the source, and let your common sense guide you.

Thanks!

JD

Want2LearnTBIRD
12-13-2007, 12:52 AM
ya this has gotten pretty extensive lol there is so much crap about this crap that we could go on for days.... i guess i just have a biased view because i was taught for a year about carbon cycles, green houses gases, ect. and what these things do to our atmosphere. and everything i have seen and was taught all leads up to the progress of global warming and thats all i know so i just believe it you know? its hard to explain but thats just what i know so its what i believe...

anyway, i really reccommend this book, it is extremely interesting: The Earth System 2nd Ed. by Kasting, Crane, and Kumb