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View Full Version : FINISHED!! '92 5 speed to 4R70W conversion and PCS controller project started! (PICS)



92bird
01-22-2008, 01:22 AM
I'm starting this thread to document my conversion. I am replacing the M5R2 5 speed manual transmission with a modified electronically controlled 4R70W automatic transmission, and the Powertrain Control Solutions stand alone transmission controller. Info on the controller can be found here: www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com

Here is the controller and pre-made 1998+ 4R70W plug in harness:

http://home.comcast.net/~jschall1/4r70w/PCS.JPG

I am starting with a 38,000 mile 1998 v6 mustang 4R70W transmission. I have disassembled the entire transmission and will be completely overhauling/modifying it with the table full of parts below.

I decided to go with a late 2004 (updated) Mach 1 torque converter, Mach 1 flexplate, bolts and nuts. For the record, the 6 bolt cobra flexplate to crankshaft bolts are the same as the SC, so you could use the ARP bolt kit if you wanted. I test fit the flexplate and bolts to my spare SC engine on the stand and all fits well.

The 98 valve body will get a mild j-mod with accumulator springs left in, as well as all Sonnax updates/upgrades.

Friction count will be updated to OEM v8 specs, adding 1 intermediate clutch and 1 direct clutch over what the v6 trans came with by using v8 pressure plates. I feel this will be adequate for the 450 rwtq I plan to make with the new motor down the road, I could fit more direct frictions but don't feel its necessary.

All new solenoids, including a 5.4L truck high pressure EPC solenoid.

5.4L wave plate installed in forward clutch too.

2.7" OD servo with high load return spring (more apply force)

Shortest reverse servo to reduce drag, and a 3 plate reverse clutch instead of 4 to also reduce forward drag.

Solid one piece teflon rings for the direct clutch feed, had to buy a special tool to install and resize them, but these should work much better than the factory "scarf cut" seals.

All new torrington bearings, pump and tailshaft bushings, and metal clad seals.

Doesn't get any more thorough than this for the expected power level.

http://home.comcast.net/~jschall1/4r70w/rebuild.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~jschall1/4r70w/rebuild 2.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~jschall1/4r70w/rebuild 3.JPG

For now, I found this tan leather 1994 Lincoln Mark VIII shifter assembly and cable in a junkyard. I also snagged the shift arm from inside of the transmission as the mustang one is shorter and won't work properly with the t-bird/Mark VII shifter. Nothing like laying in a cold muddy puddle with trans fluid dripping in your face on a 12 degree day :mad: The tan shifter actually sorta matches the titanium tweed/leather interior, but I can always find a black leather knob down the road. This will get me started.

http://home.comcast.net/~jschall1/4r70w/shifter.JPG

For a driveshaft, I snagged a 1994 Mark VIII aluminum driveshaft from the junkyard for $15. Its the less desired 2 piece unit, but will work for now until I can get something better.

For a cooler, I went with the Derale Atomic Cool unit with fan. It is their largest stacked plate unit available, with 6an fittings (I will still be using my griffen 5 speed radiator, so this will be the only cooler for the trans). I also got 20ft of Aeroquip Socketless AN hose and fittings, including the special inverted flare fittings to adapt the AN line to the transmission case. Not shown in the picture below is a 180 degree fluid thermostat for the trans cooler circuit, with AN fittings. This will bypass the cooler until the fluid reaches 180 degrees, then will start flowing fluid through the cooler.

http://home.comcast.net/~jschall1/4r70w/cooler.JPG

Currently I am in the middle of the transmission rebuild (waiting on ford for some snap rings to get clearances right) The trans should be completed 1/28/08, and ready for install in the car. The actual swap will take place Feb 16-24 (taking vacation time from work to work out all the bugs!).

What is interesting is this controller does not use a VSS sensor, it only uses the output shaft speed sensor, which actually allow me to customize a speedo output for whatever rear end gears and tire size I run. Right now the car has 3.27 gears, but 3.55 gears are on the shelf, with a detroit true track diff planned as well.

Stay tuned for more pics and updates.

Jeramie

Toms-SC
01-22-2008, 01:54 AM
You work for a well known computer company, yet you know all of this transmission stuff? I demand to know how! Thanks for documenting it!

92bird
01-22-2008, 02:07 AM
You work for a well known computer company, yet you know all of this transmission stuff? I demand to know how! Thanks for documenting it!

Khaki pants and collared shirts by day, overalls and work gloves by night ;)

Still trying to figure out why I'm dumping 3 grand into a car I drive maybe 800 miles a year :confused:

and I keep doing it :confused: year after year for the past 10 years I've owned this thing. You would think I'd be done by now.

I actually spent LESS money when I had a girlfriend :eek:

Jeramie

chadder1313
01-22-2008, 07:06 AM
Good article. Looking forward to see your results.

David Neibert
01-22-2008, 09:10 AM
Khaki pants and collared shirts by day, overalls and work gloves by night ;)

Still trying to figure out why I'm dumping 3 grand into a car I drive maybe 800 miles a year :confused:

and I keep doing it :confused: year after year for the past 10 years I've owned this thing. You would think I'd be done by now.

I actually spent LESS money when I had a girlfriend :eek:

Jeramie

Jeramie,

It's a sickness....take comfort knowing your not alone.

David

joshbea6
01-22-2008, 09:40 AM
Jeramie,

What are you doing with the clutch pedal, etc? I've been toying with the idea of putting the M5R2 Trans from my 1990 Project car (about to get a T-56 hooked to a 4.6L DOHC) into my 1997 Daily Driver.

Nice Documentation so far. I'm planning on doing similar things when I start putting my project car back together.

Josh

Kurt K
01-22-2008, 12:15 PM
Looking good.

92bird
02-19-2008, 04:29 AM
Update 2/18/08

The 4R70W is in the car, and the 5 speed is removed.

Trans cooler and aeroquip lines are installed.

No electronics hooked up yet, but the car does go into reverse and 2nd gear (default when no electronics are present)

I will have to refit the exhaust, its close, but the downpipes don't clear the big transmission pan since I built it with a 5 speed originally. Stock auto pan would have fit. I was gonna drive it around the block, but its damn loud with open headers. :eek:

See updated pics. The trans cooler has a fluid thermostat that opens at about 180* since we have lots of drivable, but cold weather here in colorado. I also fitted the fan with a Delphi GT series weatherpack connector. These connectors are very nice for anyone looking to do a wiring project. I also had to move the horn to the side, it was in the way.

More updates later this week.

Jeramie

Kurt K
02-19-2008, 09:00 AM
hmmm, thats exactly where I installed my tranny cooler. I actually mounted my horn in the front bumper :)

Looking good.

seawalkersee
02-19-2008, 10:15 AM
Nevermind...Having computer problems kept me from seeing the answer to my question.

Chris

David Neibert
02-19-2008, 11:58 AM
Jeramie,

It looks great...I'm very impressed.

David

92bird
02-19-2008, 01:02 PM
Thanks guys, its been a fun project despite the extra work (such as exhaust re-fitting)

For the record, the Mark VIII driveshaft does NOT properly fit a 3.8L car. The transmission brackets are also differnt from a 4.6 vs 3.8 car. The whole 3.8 trans/engine setup sits about 1" further back than the 4.6.

When I did a search there were some people who said yes and some who said no. So, for $15 I bought it and tried it. You could probably shove it into place if you tried, but then it would have no room to move on the slipyoke (still necessary for IRS cars, as the body does flex a bit)

I ended up getting a driveshaft, crossmember, and brackets out of a '97 3.8L T-bird base model, and it all bolted together perfectly. I will likely upgrade the driveshaft later when I do gears and install the forced lube mod, and when $$ is more plentiful.

More updates to come. And Kurt, I got the idea for the trans cooler from your pictures on your homepage. Thanks for that, if you're ever in Colorado I'll buy you a beer or something, haha :)

Jeramie

seawalkersee
02-19-2008, 03:55 PM
You orta chitcan the the shifter and get the paddle setup that you can get with the steering wheel.

Chris

92bird
02-21-2008, 03:09 AM
Update 2/20/08

Got the mig welder out today and was planning to re-work the exhaust downpipes to fit around the new 4R70W. Found out that my passenger side catalytic converter was partially melted and almost completely blocking the flow of exhaust. I'm sure this was from this summer when the fuel pressure regulator went out and I had to drive it home running rich as hell..

So I got rid of the cats and just welded some pipes on. Wow, the exhaust is a lot louder and crappier sounding without the cats.. :(

Put the front bumper back on (had it off to install trans cooler and t-stat.)

I have yet to finish installing the TCU.. Will finish tomorrow.

I did drive the car around without a computer. It defaults to max line pressure and only has reverse and 2nd gear as a "limp home" feature if your computer ever goes out.. Everything works, no fluid leaks. I lowered the idle for this test so the car wouldn't smack into gear too hard.

I wanted to drive it and make sure it was ok since we are supposed to get snow tonight.

Tomorrow afternoon I expect to have the car running with the computer controlling the transmission. I'll post updates and eventually a video.

Jeramie

92bird
02-22-2008, 05:09 AM
Car is DONE!! WOO HOO

I absolutely freakin love having a fully controllable automatic in the car!!

Everything right down to the TCU turning on the auxilary trans cooler fan works PERFECTLY!!!

Shifts are VERY comfortable and soft at part throttle, unnoticable unless you looked at the tach or listen to the exhaust.

Full throttle almost put me in the ditch on the 2-1 downshift, and then again on the 1-2 upshift. It shifts very quick and firm at WOT, but not hard enough where things are gonna break.

Still no traction in 1st gear, even with 3.27 gears.

It took me all of 5 minutes of playing with the pulses per mile function to get the speedo DEAD on.

This is a success for me in two ways. First, this was my first high performance 4R70W I've ever built (built a few stockers).. Everything mechanhically, hydraulically, and electronically turned out flawless. No leaks, no slipping, just a perfectly functioning specimen..

Second, was the wiring. I am a neat freak, like to solder and heatshrink every connection if possible.

It was a fun project, but I've got well over 200 hours of my own labor into everything including the transmission rebuild. Much much more if you count all the trips to the junkyard and time spent researching and buying the parts.

I've owned this car for nearly 10 years, and this is by far my MOST favorite thing I've ever done to it.

Jeramie

THE BIRDMAN
02-22-2008, 05:40 AM
Glad to hear everything worked out everything looks pretty sweet.Nice job.



Jay

Kurt K
02-22-2008, 09:32 AM
Sounds great. Do you have anymore pictures of the process? I don't need them now, but I may in the future.

92bird
02-22-2008, 12:17 PM
Yes, I have a few pics that I need to upload, but I left my camera over at the garage.

Kurt, you had mentioned before that the baummanater that you tried to use was slipping due to the low rpm tq of the SC motor, right?

NOT the case with this setup. I even commanded shifts at 3,500 rpm, no slip..

This transmission's valve body is pretty mild. I set it up similar to the "mild" j-mod seperator plate hole sizes, but left the factory 3.8 mustang 1-2 springs in.

On the TCU, the main line pressure is measured in duty cycle. 0% duty cycle is full line pressure, 100% duty cycle is minimum line pressure (kinda opposite of what you would expect) The car gets sideways, even considering the mild valve body, at only 33% duty cycle. I have much more each way to play with.

Kurt, if you decide to do this, don't be hesitant to give me a call. I can save you a LOT of time. If I had to do this again, I could do it in much less time.

Jeramie

Micahdogg
02-22-2008, 12:25 PM
SELLOUT!!!!!!!

Seriously, mad props man. You've got some talent.

SCgraphics guy
02-24-2008, 02:58 AM
Glad it all worked out.
You lets go for a ride.............

TwoToneThunder
02-24-2008, 03:06 AM
thats for the info id like some detailed pics as well

im thinking about doing the swap into my car as well


but behind my 347 :rolleyes::D

92bird
02-24-2008, 01:23 PM
let me know what you guys want pics of, and I'll take them/post them.

I haven't been on the computer much because I've been out driving the car, and tuning the transmission.

Lots to play with. part throttle shift points, part throttle shift firmness, tq converter schedule per gear, and torque converter lock firmness, etc..

Then I get to do it all over again in a "performance" mode for calibration "B" which I can switch to. I'm using my firm ride switch as calibration B. When in firm ride mode, I have the firm ride light in the dash cluster illuminating. I disabled my ARC shocks years ago, so this is a good use for this switch.

I also pulled the lower cluster tabs out of a newer T-bird that has the O/D OFF indicator. So when I push the factory 4R70W O/D off button, the TCU will cancel overdrice and light up the O/D off indicator.

I'll try to do some datalogging today, and post the log if I can figure out how.

Jeramie

Flex
02-25-2008, 02:54 AM
Thanks guys, its been a fun project despite the extra work (such as exhaust re-fitting)

For the record, the Mark VIII driveshaft does NOT properly fit a 3.8L car. The transmission brackets are also differnt from a 4.6 vs 3.8 car. The whole 3.8 trans/engine setup sits about 1" further back than the 4.6.

When I did a search there were some people who said yes and some who said no. So, for $15 I bought it and tried it. You could probably shove it into place if you tried, but then it would have no room to move on the slipyoke (still necessary for IRS cars, as the body does flex a bit)

I ended up getting a driveshaft, crossmember, and brackets out of a '97 3.8L T-bird base model, and it all bolted together perfectly. I will likely upgrade the driveshaft later when I do gears and install the forced lube mod, and when $$ is more plentiful.

More updates to come. And Kurt, I got the idea for the trans cooler from your pictures on your homepage. Thanks for that, if you're ever in Colorado I'll buy you a beer or something, haha :)

Jeramie


Jeramie,

The Mark VIII driveshaft works fine but you have to replace the front slip yoke with one that has a Mark size u-joint with a 3.8 spline. The Mark VIII's had a beefier output shaft so the slip yoke from one will not work in an AOD or 4R70W from a Stang.

92bird
02-25-2008, 12:05 PM
Jeramie,

The Mark VIII driveshaft works fine but you have to replace the front slip yoke with one that has a Mark size u-joint with a 3.8 spline. The Mark VIII's had a beefier output shaft so the slip yoke from one will not work in an AOD or 4R70W from a Stang.

The slip yoke is the exact same as the '97 3.8L T-bird shaft I ended up using.

The yoke wasn't the problem, the mark 8 shaft was about 1" too long vs the '97 3.8L t-bird shaft that is in the car and working.

Jeramie

Flex
02-25-2008, 10:12 PM
Well that's different. I had to change bothe slip yokes and the shafts fit fine. One car was a 90 LX and the other was a 93 SC.

92bird
02-26-2008, 11:24 AM
It worked on your AOD with the corrected slip yoke because the AOD sits further forward and requires a slightly longer driveshaft than the 4R70W does with the same engine.

I put a '98 mustang 4R70W in my '92 SC, so the transmission is longer than an AOD. The mark driveshaft won't fit, but the slip yoke slides right in.

All AOD splines are the same, and all 4R70W splines are the same. No such thing as a 3.8 specific slip yoke spline. Between our group in colorado, we've put every combo together just about.

We have a '95 SC with an AOD (temporary until we replace synchros on its original 5 speed), a '92 SC with a 4R70W.

Also, all 98+ 4R70W's supposedly have hardened output shaft.

Hope this helps.

Jeramie

Flex
02-26-2008, 02:22 PM
I forgot you were dealing with the 4R70W. It is not the spline that is different but the yoke is thicker on the Mark shaft. The tail housing is supposed to be stronger as a result. I had to get a slip yoke ordered that had the same u-joint end as the Mark VIII shaft with a thinner splined end. Cost me $80 for the piece.

2TonCat
02-26-2008, 02:27 PM
Needs more stall :)

92bird
04-17-2008, 04:01 PM
Just a quick update.

I now have 500 miles on this transmission, and have the shift points, shift firmness, and tq converter lockup tuned just the way I like. It continues to work perfectly. Not even a hiccup.

The mach 1 converter doesn't stall as high as I would like for the track, but its a good street converter. With drag radials at the track, it was pushing the car (sliding the front tires) on full brakes applied at about 2,200 rpm.

The car is consistantly faster with the 4R70W than I could ever get it to run with the 5 speed, despite a 20mph headwind, poor track prep, and easy launches due to poor track prep. 60' times were on par with 5 speed at 2.07-2.1. Had track prep been better I think those could have come down to a 1.95 or so.

Best 5 speed time was 13.99 @ 99.3 mph

Best 4R70W time is 13.79 @ 98.9 mph

Both configurations had 3.27 gears, same track (6,000 ft altitude), slightly cooler weather.

I have two calibrations. Calibration A is "gentle, can't even feel it shift" mode with WOT shifts at 5,200 rpm. Calibration B is "~~~~~ and get sideways" mode with WOT shift at 5,700 rpm

Two completely different characteristics at the touch of a button.

Haven't tried locking the converter at WOT, I don't think the stock mach 1 converter is up to it, and I'd rather not chance it.

I have 3.55 gears on the shelf, but I'm not sure if I want to install them yet. I really like the way the car runs with 3.27 gears on the street. I also have a brand new set of 3.31 gears in a box, so maybe I'll toss them in since I need to rebuild the track lok anyway.

Jeramie

CaifanSC
04-17-2008, 08:25 PM
For the record, the 6 bolt cobra flexplate to crankshaft bolts are the same as the SC, so you could use the ARP bolt kit if you wanted.

Does this mean that those new bolts were the same as the old flywheel bolts from your 5speed?

SCgraphics guy
04-17-2008, 09:29 PM
Just a quick update.

I now have 500 miles on this transmission, and have the shift points, shift firmness, and tq converter lockup tuned just the way I like. It continues to work perfectly. Not even a hiccup.

The mach 1 converter doesn't stall as high as I would like for the track, but its a good street converter. With drag radials at the track, it was pushing the car (sliding the front tires) on full brakes applied at about 2,200 rpm.

The car is consistantly faster with the 4R70W than I could ever get it to run with the 5 speed, despite a 20mph headwind, poor track prep, and easy launches due to poor track prep. 60' times were on par with 5 speed at 2.07-2.1. Had track prep been better I think those could have come down to a 1.95 or so.

Best 5 speed time was 13.99 @ 99.3 mph

Best 4R70W time is 13.79 @ 98.9 mph

Both configurations had 3.27 gears, same track (6,000 ft altitude), slightly cooler weather.

I have two calibrations. Calibration A is "gentle, can't even feel it shift" mode with WOT shifts at 5,200 rpm. Calibration B is "~~~~~ and get sideways" mode with WOT shift at 5,700 rpm

Two completely different characteristics at the touch of a button.

Haven't tried locking the converter at WOT, I don't think the stock mach 1 converter is up to it, and I'd rather not chance it.

I have 3.55 gears on the shelf, but I'm not sure if I want to install them yet. I really like the way the car runs with 3.27 gears on the street. I also have a brand new set of 3.31 gears in a box, so maybe I'll toss them in since I need to rebuild the track lok anyway.

Jeramie

Reminder: I back those 13.9 times at 6000 plus feet elevation, where a C5 vette ran a 14.0 the same day! I didn't expect Jeramies car to run that good.
The (Micheles??) 92 ran a best of 12.79 at 108mph the same day, waxing a modded supra....
Jeramies ET with that trans is pretty sweet!
Maybe....some day.... I'll do the same setup...maybe....

David Neibert
04-17-2008, 10:45 PM
Nice job Jeramie....I'll be taking your old 93 back to the track in a couple weeks. Can't wait :D

David

Kurt K
04-17-2008, 11:14 PM
Sounds good Jeramie. This news almost makes me want my AOD to fail again :rolleyes: Well, not really, but if it does, I almost definitely go this route.

Toms-SC
04-17-2008, 11:19 PM
Sounds good Jeramie. This news almost makes me want my AOD to fail again :rolleyes: Well, not really, but if it does, I almost definitely go this route.

:cool:

Shoot out, it's toast

Kurt K
04-17-2008, 11:38 PM
:cool:

Shoot out, it's toastThanks for the vote of confidence:rolleyes:

92bird
04-18-2008, 11:00 AM
Does this mean that those new bolts were the same as the old flywheel bolts from your 5speed?

No, sorry I should have clarified. The 4.6L flexplate bolts are identical to the 3.8L flexplate bolts. My OEM 5 sp flywheel bolts were longer than the flexplate bolts.

If anyone wants ARP bolts for their automatic flexplates, you want ARP # 254-2901
They are M10x1.0 .500 length..

Do NOT confuse with ARP # 254-2801. These are meant for 4.6L flywheels and are M10x1.0 1.0 length (too long for the thinner auto flexplate) I'm unsure if the 254-2801 are the correct length for a 5 sp SC flywheel.

Since ford offered the 4.6L flexplate models with both 6 bolt and 8 bolt crank, this kit comes with 8 so you will have 2 extra bolts for spares. No biggie.

I am truley happy with this conversion. I'm now working on the fluid temp based adjustments, which allow you to modify all parameters based upon trans fluid temp. As the fluid gets warmer, shifting characteristics change slightly, and this allows you to adjust for that. I do have to admit, that its still pretty darn consistant even without any adjustments. Cold WOT vs hot WOT shift points only vary about 40-50 rpm on the 1-2 shift, and virutally no change on the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts. MUCH MUCH more consistant than any AOD I've driven.

Oh yea, full throttle upshift into 4th gear is fun too, no worries about it downshifting accidentally into 3rd like the AOD does.

Jeramie

CaifanSC
04-18-2008, 06:21 PM
No, sorry I should have clarified. The 4.6L flexplate bolts are identical to the 3.8L flexplate bolts. My OEM 5 sp flywheel bolts were longer than the flexplate bolts.


Gotcha, thanks for the clafication...when I read this i thought you had stumbled upon the solution for new flywheel bolts...would have made alot of people (including me) happy. In any case, good set up my friend!

Scott Long
04-19-2008, 04:00 PM
cool beans man.

I think the 4R70W trans is a better deal than the AOD. I like my AOD because with the lentech valve body it shifts harsh, but it shifts when it wants to for the most part and I hate the 3rd gear lockup. I really wish I could control some of it's parameters. The swap you did seems to be the best option.

Did you break your 5-speed and say screw it, or did you just want to get the car better suited for drag racing?

92bird
04-19-2008, 09:02 PM
Scott, I trashed the 5 speed. Broke all but 3 teeth off of 2nd gear and the countershaft gear.

I wanted the car to be more comfortable to drive on the street. I got spoiled by driving my GTP all day (automatic of course). I really like just tossing it in gear and going.

Plus, I've built a few AOD's and 4R70W's now, I really wanted to do one for myself. I can't stress enough how happy I am with the outcome of the whole project. It looks and functions like a factory install.

Jeramie

DMX
06-07-2008, 12:09 AM
wow, not sure how I missed this thread, nice work!

I finally sent the engine off to the shop yesterday for the bore/balance/etc. Going to go with the MLS gaskets when I get everything back.

Any idea if that PCS controller will work on an AX4S? I *really* want to go the megasquirt route but so far it has no trans functions..., SCT is an option too but I want complete flexibility.

92bird
06-07-2008, 04:52 PM
Craig,

It could work for any electronic transmission. They don't have a temlate for the AX4S, nor the AX4N, but it is programmable. Once you know the frequency of the PWM solenoids, and few other things, you can make it work.

Jeramie

Phillio99
06-07-2008, 05:08 PM
isnt megasquirt working on electronic auto trans control?

Toms-SC
06-07-2008, 05:53 PM
isnt megasquirt working on electronic auto trans control?

Yes :) I'll talk to Mr.Megasquirt next time I see him.

DMX
06-09-2008, 01:35 PM
A MS update would be excellent, there's all this talk about megashift alpha code but the msgpio section is a ghost town, nothing much has been said in a couple of months. =\

PCS may be the ticket, would you mind taking a pic/scanning the tech instructions? Also do you have to pull timing during shifts?

If I *have* to i'll leave the ford PCM in to control the trans temporarily, i'm just now sure how it will react when it no longer has fuel+spark control.

Either way with a new trans controller i've got the option of running v8SHO trans or perhaps windstar trans, or whatever beefy unit will bolt up. -- hell even a GTP trans if thats even possible :-)

I'll keep an eye out for updates, thanks.

DMX
06-15-2008, 07:26 PM
Craig,

It could work for any electronic transmission. They don't have a temlate for the AX4S, nor the AX4N, but it is programmable. Once you know the frequency of the PWM solenoids, and few other things, you can make it work.

Jeramie

I've got some info on the AX4N shift solenoid operation, not sure where to locate the pwm frequency for the EPC and TCC (and the shift solenoids if they operate that way)

I'll hookup an oscilloscope if I have to but i'm hoping you point me in the right direction to save the trouble