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View Full Version : 30% OD pulleys for MPIII/X blowers



XR7 Dave
02-14-2008, 09:51 AM
Gaging interest in a quick change pulley setup for M90 blowers that would allow you to run the MP 10% crank pulley and 10% JS pulley along with your choice of either a stock blower pulley or a 10% OD pulley. Other ratio's would be possible but those two would allow for the best choices. A 20% total ratio would provide 16-17psi on the street for safety with pump gas and then the 30% ratio would provide close to 20psi for track use. Other ratio's could be easily made after the hub/pulley setup is installed.

Drive ratio's higher than 30% have been tried with success for those who might want to try it. These pulleys would feature revised rib design, media blasted drive surfaces, and hard anodizing for maximum grip and long life.

Please post if you'd be interested in purchasing. If there is enough interest we will bring back a cost estimate. Looking for an initial run of 10 units for cost projections.

rzibilske77
02-14-2008, 10:50 AM
Subscribed.....im in:p

frdlvr30
02-14-2008, 11:29 AM
Sign me up too Dave...

XR7 Dave
02-14-2008, 11:48 AM
This setup could be used with the stock crank or JS pulley but it will be 10 rib in design. This is something that Mike Tuck (Super XR7) would be making if there is enough interest.

Roadhawg
02-14-2008, 01:31 PM
Dave,
The 5% Magnum Powers 10 rib pulley requires you to clearance some on the supercharger snout, how will the 10% 10 rib supercharger pulley clear?

XR7 Dave
02-14-2008, 03:15 PM
Dave,
The 5% Magnum Powers 10 rib pulley requires you to clearance some on the supercharger snout, how will the 10% 10 rib supercharger pulley clear?

Same deal. Just shave down the ribs for clearance.

XxSlowpokexX
02-14-2008, 05:38 PM
Will these ten rib pulleys have the same spacing as the old ESM ten rib quick change kits? Will you also be offering the 10 rib jackshaft and potentially an 8 rib on that to the crank?

XR7 Dave
02-14-2008, 05:51 PM
Will these ten rib pulleys have the same spacing as the old ESM ten rib quick change kits? Will you also be offering the 10 rib jackshaft and potentially an 8 rib on that to the crank?

The spacing is the same as the ESM kits. MP already offers the JS and crank pulley so we are not considering duplicating an already available product but they are all designed to be interchangeable with each other. However, this hub system will not interchange with the ESM hub system.

If this product comes to be we may consider an UD/OD crank pulley but that is another product which is independent of this one.

XxSlowpokexX
02-14-2008, 06:52 PM
I didnt realize they had a ten rib setup. Thanks

Mike8675309
02-14-2008, 08:41 PM
Will something like this work on the A/R blowers?

chadder1313
02-14-2008, 11:12 PM
Im also interested.

XR7 Dave
02-14-2008, 11:36 PM
Will something like this work on the A/R blowers?

No, this would only be for the M90.

XxSlowpokexX
02-15-2008, 01:01 AM
they make ten rib AR pulleys. I converted my kit to a ten rib. Just not sure if the offset will work with the standard setup

pablon2
02-15-2008, 01:28 AM
Count me in. Question, will the existing 5% MP SC pulley work with the new MP hub?

XR7 Dave
02-15-2008, 09:37 AM
they make ten rib AR pulleys. I converted my kit to a ten rib. Just not sure if the offset will work with the standard setupI'm not sure who you are referring to as "they". AR certainly doesn't make 10rib pulleys. You can make 20 rib AR pulleys if you want to, but the maximum rib count on the AR kits that I make (have made) is 8. This product has nothing to do with the AR. Everything is wrong, diameter, alignment, rib count, etc. Furthermore, the AR doesn't require a quick change pulley because the pulleys are not pressed on in the first place.


Question, will the existing 5% MP SC pulley work with the new MP hub?These are not MP parts. As I said, Mike Tuck is thinking about making these because MP does not offer 30% OD pulleys. The proposed design would have a press on steel hub to which the replaceable pulleys attach with bolts which is what makes this a quick change setup suitable for track and street use with minimal effort. The MP pulley is a one-piece press on pulley which requires a puller to remove and should not be repeatedly removed and replaced as the aluminum will deform and the pulley eventually become loose. It simply isn't designed to be removed and installed multiple times.

pablon2
02-15-2008, 09:52 AM
The next question that should be on most people's minds IS.....will the 30% OD require a shorter belt compared to the one used with the 25% OD setup? Perhaps the answer is, "dunno, wait and see if belt slip occurs", but would be nice to be prepared beforehand if possible.

Regardless, this will be a great and very welcomed addition to the MPx arsenal. :)

XR7 Dave
02-15-2008, 10:04 AM
Belt selection is a challenge with M90's. In 10 rib the only belt available is the 12 rib 400. This belt is too long for the 10% setup. You'll have to get creative to run it. This means raising the blower slightly and/or slotting your accessory bracket bolt holes to lower the JS bracket.

pablon2
02-15-2008, 10:12 AM
This means raising the blower slightly and/or slotting your accessory bracket bolt holes to lower the JS bracket.

Yeah, and when doing it, make sure to slot it in the right direction. :p

sail7seas
02-15-2008, 01:31 PM
Would a 15% or 20% OD crank pulley be feasible?

XxSlowpokexX
02-15-2008, 02:31 PM
Furthermore, the AR doesn't require a quick change pulley because the pulleys are not pressed on in the first place.

I realize that Dave but someone mentioned 10 rib for AR and I had bought a few ten rib pulleys for my AR kit. Im not saying they will work but there were a few companies that made them at least 2 years ago for the cobra and or lightning kits. I cant recall offhand who I got them from but I redesigned the AR I had for the ten rib setup. Its off topic but thought i'd mention it. If anyones interested in the info just PM me I'll see if I can find it

XR7 Dave
02-15-2008, 06:42 PM
I realize that Dave but someone mentioned 10 rib for AR and I had bought a few ten rib pulleys for my AR kit. Im not saying they will work but there were a few companies that made them at least 2 years ago for the cobra and or lightning kits. I cant recall offhand who I got them from but I redesigned the AR I had for the ten rib setup. Its off topic but thought i'd mention it. If anyones interested in the info just PM me I'll see if I can find it

Ooookkkkk dokkkkiieieeiieieieee. Since we HAVE to take this off topic. The AR kits being referenced in this discussion (remember Mike asked the question originally) will NOT accommodate a 10 rib belt. It won't fit. Go look at Miller's kit to get the idea.

Anyone can get 10 rib pulleys made if they want to but that doesn't mean they will work. As a matter of history, AR only ever offered 6 rib pulleys. KB offers 10 rib pulleys as do others but they aren't going to work on the AR kits that I build/have built/am building. I have access to any size pulleys someone might want in any offset that might be necessary but that really isn't the question here. The MPX requires the use of 3.0" and smaller pulleys. The AR kit requires the use of 3.0" and bigger pulleys. It's just not feasible or practical to have interchangeable parts nor is there any reason to.

Now, if AR owners want a quick change system (even though the pulleys are semi quick change anyway, they can get with me and we can work out the details. However, unless you (or someone else) has engineering data as to the offset and hub diameter of the pulleys used in the AR kits (yes they are custom) then making pulleys is probably going to be hit and miss and cost significantly more than contacting me (and/or Mike Tuck) to have some custom made.

I realize this response is long winded and besides the point but I'd really like it if when a thread is started for a particular part, or let's say someone wants to sell a car or part, that people would simply stick to the topic at hand instead of using the thread as a place to voice off about whatever interests them.

Thanks. :)

So, anyone want pulleys for their M90? :D

XR7 Dave
02-15-2008, 06:52 PM
Would a 15% or 20% OD crank pulley be feasible?

Possibly but there are problems with that. Increasing drive ratio at any given pulley requires changing diameter as a % of the pulley's diameter. A .3" decrease in size would equate to a 10% change in drive ratio at the blower, but to increase the drive ratio 10% at the crank would require a .75" increase in diameter. The crank pulley gets so big it runs into clearance issues not to mention it starts to get rather heavy. Also, billet aluminum stock 8.5" or more in diameter is expensive and hard to get in small quantities.

One of the goals of this effort is to make the MPX a little more livable on the street. Under normal circumstances it makes so much boost so quickly that it can be pretty hard on parts. Your parts will thank you for running a little less OD on the street and saving the serious boost for situations when you need it without making life difficult.

There are many approaches to making high boost but the changeable blower pulley is the least expensive and easiest way to change OD ratio's quickly and easily. If a 15% crank pulley or JS pulley were made at some point it would not outdate the functionality of these pulleys.

patragz22
02-16-2008, 06:05 PM
0kay I am at 25% so I will go another 5%, thank you, count me in.

Hock
02-16-2008, 08:26 PM
Will someone find me a sponsor so I can get all this cool sheet before it all goes away? PLEASE!!!:D:D:D

XR7 Dave
02-17-2008, 11:21 AM
Ok so far we have interest from:

pablon
patragz22
rzbilske77
frdlvr30
chadder1313
XR7 Dave

Looking for 10 minimum to consider production.... I know there are more of you out there who could benefit from this. Need more feedback before we can get pricing data together.

Mike8675309
02-17-2008, 03:44 PM
Ahhh, heck... I'll buy one. Not sure what I'll use it for, but eventually my 93 will be done and I'll need something new to play with.

Add me to the list.

pablon2
02-18-2008, 11:43 AM
Ahhh, heck... I'll buy one. Not sure what I'll use it for, but eventually my 93 will be done and I'll need something new to play with.

Add me to the list.

Atta boy. :D

Who's next? :) Birdofprey97?

Mercutio
02-20-2008, 09:55 AM
Dave, is this something that you think might work well for my setup once we get the exhaust sorted out, or am I already at the limit on boost?

XR7 Dave
02-20-2008, 10:28 AM
Dave, is this something that you think might work well for my setup once we get the exhaust sorted out, or am I already at the limit on boost?

In your case with a stock bottom end I don't think more boost is a good idea. With the reduction in back pressure from a better exhaust system your car will perform better with the drive ratio you have. I do think that for road course use 15-20% OD would be better but I don't know if the motor would really handle 30%.

nickleman60
02-20-2008, 04:22 PM
what the heck, I'm installing just about everything but the kitchen sink and I will have a built bottom end to handle 30% od so put me on the list and let's see what kinda price is this thing is going to cost......:D

XR7 Dave
02-20-2008, 08:38 PM
Total is up now to:

pablon
patragz22
rzbilske77
frdlvr30
chadder1313
XR7 Dave
Mike8675309
nickleman60

I know there are at least a couple others interested who have not posted so when Mike gets back we will put together a proposal to see what it would cost.

Anyone else interested, put your name down so we know who we are talking to here.

David

Roadhawg
02-20-2008, 09:15 PM
Need more feedback before we can get pricing data together.

Dave, you have sparked my interest, but I have reservations.
To me a 10% 10 rib pulley would have clearance issue with the M90 snout. Also a quick change pulley system, should be a simple change of a pulley, belt and an EEC reflash. I tend to think out of the box and I am far from being mechanically challenged, but the following quote has me doubting the "Quick" part of the quick change pulley system.


Belt selection is a challenge with M90's. In 10 rib the only belt available is the 12 rib 400. This belt is too long for the 10% setup. You'll have to get creative to run it. This means raising the blower slightly and/or slotting your accessory bracket bolt holes to lower the JS bracket.


__________________
2003 Mustang Mach1
1995 Thunderbird LX 4.6 4R70W w/Jmod, 8.8 3.27 Tracloc
1995 Mustang 4.2; MPX 25%OD, 4R70W w/Jmod, 8.8 3.73 Tracloc

XR7 Dave
02-20-2008, 09:25 PM
Dave, you have sparked my interest, but I have reservations.
To me a 10% 10 rib pulley would have clearance issue with the M90 snout. Also a quick change pulley system, should be a simple change of a pulley, belt and an EEC reflash. I tend to think out of the box and I am far from being mechanically challenged, but the following quote has me doubting the "Quick" part of the quick change pulley system.

Well, these are issues that come with trying to get the most out of your M90. The mods described there are things that would be done during installation and not each time you want to change pulleys.

We are limited by belt selection. You can't run a larger JS pulley because it runs into the bracket unless you want to modify it, but then you need a different JS pulley. We are trying to avoid replacing everything that MP just came out with. Even with the 25% MP setup you still have problems with tensioner travel and belt size. I've fought this issue on every car I've worked on that has the 25% drive kit. MP chose the 25% system because it *just* fit in many ways. If we go beyond that we are going to have to make some compromises.

I haven't personally raised a supercharger or slotted bolt holes but it seems to me that this would be a relatively painless solution that is going to plague anyone with a 10rib blower pulley system (yes even the current 25% system).

Roadhawg
02-20-2008, 09:59 PM
We are limited by belt selection.

What about a Gates K120390?

XR7 Dave
02-20-2008, 10:29 PM
What about a Gates K120390? That might work but you'd be extremely tight. I haven't tried it. Normally I use that size belt for someone with a stock JS and 10% pulley. The MP JS is bigger than stock so I don't know if it would work.

Sxar
02-21-2008, 10:16 AM
Add me to the list of those interested. :)

Matt

pablon2
02-21-2008, 10:29 AM
Well, these are issues that come with trying to get the most out of your M90. The mods described there are things that would be done during installation and not each time you want to change pulleys.

Are you sure about that? I could see having to loosen the RH accessory bracket and move it back to the stock location (in the modded slot) when putting the 5% OD SC pulley back on. Changes we make to the setup to go to 10% I would think would have to be reversed when going back to the 5%. If we are not swapping belts each time then won't we have to move something else EACH TIME? Unless I am missing something. :confused:

Sampo
02-21-2008, 11:02 AM
Dave, will those pulleys work with my coming set up?

If yes, then add me to the list...:cool:

Sami

BirdofPrey97
02-21-2008, 07:55 PM
Count me in.

(@#%&* pablon2) :mad:;)

Of course price is the final determining factor here. Wish I could get in on the Piston, Rod combo, but right now with the MPX setup purchase and nobody buying the MPII with a baby on the way it's a stretch for more than just the wife now. :D

XR7 Dave
02-21-2008, 08:10 PM
Paul, the 400 belt is a little long for the 25% setup. I have had problems with belt to belt contact at high rpm. Doing the things I stated would help out under all circumstances and would not be altered during quick change operations.

Sami, this would work well on your setup but maybe you should be thinking about forged pistons/rods.....

chadder1313
02-21-2008, 08:19 PM
Same here. Price is determining factor.

Sampo
02-24-2008, 12:03 PM
Sami, this would work well on your setup but maybe you should be thinking about forged pistons/rods.....


Hmmm....I think I'm running out of the money...:o

So don't add me to the list. :(

patragz22
02-29-2008, 01:19 PM
any news on this subject

XR7 Dave
02-29-2008, 04:53 PM
We are working on cost estimates.

BirdofPrey97
02-29-2008, 06:32 PM
We are working on cost estimates.

Sample free to a good home works for me:D Greatly appreciate your work on the MN12 platform Dave.

jludorf
03-10-2008, 01:06 AM
Dave,
Add me to the list.
John

bigpoppa822
03-10-2008, 01:49 AM
That might work but you'd be extremely tight. I haven't tried it. Normally I use that size belt for someone with a stock JS and 10% pulley. The MP JS is bigger than stock so I don't know if it would work.

I use a 38" belt with a stock JS and 10% SC pulley, fits fine.

BLOWN38
03-10-2008, 04:20 PM
Add me to the list! Not sure how I missed this thread a month ago now???:confused:

Thanks Chad for not telling me about this. You must be tryin to pass me on the track?

chadder1313
03-10-2008, 05:29 PM
Man Chris i thought you would have known before i would of.

mannysc
03-21-2008, 04:28 PM
ya know the bigger belt could be used if you make a tensioner like the mustangs use / my buddys cobra has a tensioner bolted to blower case and snout that pinches belt around blower pully it could be used to take up the slack and give better belt grip on blower pully ill try to get a picture of it

XR7 Dave
03-24-2008, 10:33 AM
This was a post to gauge interest at this time. It has also prompted some good discussion as to what ultimate drive ratio should be targeted. We had originally hoped that the 25% kit currently offered by MP would be all anyone would need but look what happened there. :rolleyes:

The best ultimate solution would be to convince Charles Warner to produce the overdrive gear snout that he has designed. With an overdrive built into the snout you could simply run stock pulleys and belts. How crazy would that be??? :eek:

By the time you add up the cost for all the pulleys and belts that you have to buy to run 25% OD now, a sizable investment in a new nose drive would not be as expensive as it sounds. :cool:

BLOWN38
03-24-2008, 02:23 PM
This was a post to gauge interest at this time. It has also prompted some good discussion as to what ultimate drive ratio should be targeted. We had originally hoped that the 25% kit currently offered by MP would be all anyone would need but look what happened there. :rolleyes:

The best ultimate solution would be to convince Charles Warner to produce the overdrive gear snout that he has designed. With an overdrive built into the snout you could simply run stock pulleys and belts. How crazy would that be??? :eek:

By the time you add up the cost for all the pulleys and belts that you have to buy to run 25% OD now, a sizable investment in a new nose drive would not be as expensive as it sounds. :cool:

well damn there's an idea! why didn't i think of that:confused:... cause i'm not an expert on blowers. But that would require pressing the rotors off then retiming them, wouldn't it?

chadder1313
03-24-2008, 02:27 PM
Maybe not Chris if its just in the snout. That would be great if Charles would work on that for us!!:D

Micahdogg
03-24-2008, 04:12 PM
I'm assuming it would be a two piece shaft that ramps up speed when you hit the rotor pack. Maybe something like a two or three piece nose drive that can sandwich two shafts inside. Kinda like this:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z84/Micahdogg/nosedrive.jpg

The purple and blue shaft would be two piece. Then the side shaft would link the two. Just like a transmission. You could put bearing supports in the front, rear and middle. Then it would just be a bolt on piece.

edit- just realized, I think i messed up by keeping it direct drive by the rotor pack. I think that green gear could be much larger on the outlet side to get even more overdrive on the way out. Then again, the difference in size between those two gears at the front would probably constitute a 35% overdrive by itself.

XR7 Dave
04-02-2008, 07:42 AM
Micah, that is exactly the design. It would be 100% bolt on. :)

midgetchaser
04-02-2008, 11:28 AM
now thats pretty cool.

there would need to be some kinda oiling system to the front then. or just a different place for a fill. so you can fill the whole snout.

Hock
04-03-2008, 09:15 PM
Would there be any possible way to have mutiple gear sets for different ratios?

I think that could make it more of an option for the main stream.

fturner
04-03-2008, 09:33 PM
Would there be any possible way to have mutiple gear sets for different ratios?

I think that could make it more of an option for the main stream.

Instead of thinking that way, what about setting the gearing up say for 20% with no OD pullies... then start adding in pully changes.

The only thing is, I would still think that belt slip could be a problem.

Frit

XR7 Dave
04-03-2008, 10:54 PM
Belt slip would not be a problem any more. Belts are capable of transmitting plenty of power to run the blower. The problem is surface area on the smaller pulleys and more importantly belt speed. We are exceeding maximum belt speed by so much that Gates engineers laugh at us for even trying to do what we are currently doing. By reducing belt speeds and allowing gears to do the final OD we eliminate many problems. This really would be the "ultimate solution".

fturner
04-03-2008, 11:41 PM
Belt slip would not be a problem any more. Belts are capable of transmitting plenty of power to run the blower. The problem is surface area on the smaller pulleys and more importantly belt speed. We are exceeding maximum belt speed by so much that Gates engineers laugh at us for even trying to do what we are currently doing. By reducing belt speeds and allowing gears to do the final OD we eliminate many problems. This really would be the "ultimate solution".

I wasn't thinking of the smaller pully size, but the amount of power needed to turn the blower at that level of OD... You will only get so much even with gearing before you go beyond the coefficient of friction that a belt can offer... Sure you can OD a blower with gearing to 50% and beyond... but a stock belt on stock sized pullies will not survive that and will slip.

Frit

backtobirds
04-12-2008, 08:02 PM
I'm in, too.

XR7 Dave
04-13-2008, 08:07 PM
I wasn't thinking of the smaller pully size, but the amount of power needed to turn the blower at that level of OD... You will only get so much even with gearing before you go beyond the coefficient of friction that a belt can offer... Sure you can OD a blower with gearing to 50% and beyond... but a stock belt on stock sized pullies will not survive that and will slip.

Frit

There is no engineering data to support the idea that the belts cannot support the loads that would be generated. The biggest problem we encounter is in fact belt speeds which are far in excess of the rated ft/sec limit for the belts. This is our biggest problem by a long margin (that comes from the Gates engineering department).

pablon2
06-19-2008, 10:28 PM
I haven't personally raised a supercharger or slotted bolt holes but it seems to me that this would be a relatively painless solution that is going to plague anyone with a 10rib blower pulley system (yes even the current 25% system).

I will be installing a slotted accessory bracket here in a couple weeks. Had all four holes (of course) slotted. Should be able to move it outward as much as 7/32".

rzimmerl
06-20-2008, 09:55 AM
I'd be in for a set, and would like to see a 5% offered also. I am primarily interested to run 15% on the street and a quick change of the pulley to run 20% when I feel like it, since I have a stock bottom end. It would be nice to get 20%OD and be able to retain the underdrive pulley's and not change to the 10% crank pulley. Any news if this is getting closer to actual production?