Ryan's Tech Article Thread

[2TonCat]

Ok, so I like sharing what I think I know about these cars... So here's where it'll happen. Feel free to contribute your own, and ask questions.

For our first installment...

"Mods not to do and why"
Adjustable fuel pressure regulator
Don't do it. Leve the adjustments to the tuner. All you're doing is bandaiding a problem with a fix that is less than optimal. It also screws with the tuning when you actually DO throw it on the rollers... The fuel map won't look like it should... Just keep a working stock FPR and you're good.
Boost-a-pump
Same priciple as the AFR. Don't F with the fuel pressure outside of the tune. OK, so you put more voltage to the fuel pump under WOT... GOOD! You have more fuel pressure.... OK, now lets say you tune it like this. What happens if you get a short in your boost-a-pump? Fuel pressure drops off, and since the injectors aren't set at a duty cycle high enough to inject enough fuel on their own, you're running lean. Air fuel adjustments should ONLY be done in the tune.
Nitrous intercooler spray bars
Why in the right mind would you do this??? Seriously? If you HAVE nitrous, your intake charge is already cool enough, and you won't have any gains. If you DON'T have nitrous, WHY in god's green earth would you BUY it to spray it ON your intercooler? Its EXPENSIVE! Just get methanol. No matter what you do to that damn intercooler, you aren't going to get the same cooling gains. The whole principle of it is just stupid... You're pushing asstons of air through a box slightly warmer than ambient temperature in hopes of not melting your motor. Ok, lets make the box colder! That'll make the air inside change drastically! Sorry, its just not the right way to do it.
EGR delete
EGR is not "Emissions crap". Its a very functional and helpful part of your motor. If you want to get rid of it because its a B***H to work on, so be it. Otherwise, leave it there. At WOT it turns off. There can NOT be any performance losses due to it. during cruising, you're pusing non-burnable gas back into the cylinder. This takes up space, increasing your chamber density to simulate a higher dynamic compression ratio, as well as cool the cylinders since this gas does not burn.
Wideband gague with stock 02s
Your 02s only read at one range. Unless you want to watch a light jump back and forth, its not going to do anything for you. If you run nitrous or something, get an 02 that has wideband output.
Oil filter relocation kit
I don't like them. Simple as that. The thought of adding more area between the pump and the vital engine parts just makes me want to kill bunnies. There are chances of leaks, pressure loss, etc... You really don't gain any fluid volume in the sump either because its taken up in the path to get to the motor. After the channels to the remote filter are filled up, that oil is benefitting nothing. Just not my way of doing things.
(4.6)High output oil pump with 2v heads
No. Simple as that. The 2v pump already produces enough oil pressure for the 2v heads and THEN some... The 4v pump is just going to suck your pan dry.
(4r70)Trans-go shift kit
There is a thread on TCCoA about this. I can't find it right now. Bad parts. Do the J-mod.
(4r70)Any torque converter that can't lock up under WOT
Ok, so you don't like stall. I'm fine with that.... But don't waste your time on a torque converter that can't lock under WOT. How would you like to get a good chunk of your automatic's drivetrain loss back? Its not just X horsepower either... its a percentage of what you lost... The more power your motor makes, the more of a gain you get from a converter that can lock under WOT. Want something tangable? Talk to jason about the Jeep we races. He had me off the line, all the way through first, he was gaining on me. We hit 2nd gear, I gained a little ground on him, and then we were dead even. Heck, if someone wants to pay the dyno costs, we can goto make a run with it enabled, and with it disabled to SEE the difference.
Tires the stock height wider than 255 on the front
They rub. Joel and I both had this issue. I still hear mine rub every once in a while after I switched to 245.
Tires with less than a 255x45 aspect ratio sidewall on the back
Not enough sidewall. You won't hook. I don't care if they're slicks, its still not happening.
Electric water pumps
They don't last near long enough for a car that you drive regularly. With my driving, the expected lifetime was about a year, and that was with advertised lifespans, not actual lifespans exposed to the heat our motors put to them. If its a racecar, sure. I don't think its worth loosing a few 10ths. The cooling in the staging lines would be nice though.

[SuperCharged91]

Good none of the things i plan on doing to my car.

[midgetchaser]

thats why i went out and got 255/55's on the back.




They still dont hook.

[Melon]

Since some of Ryan's seem to be more for the 4.6 than the SC (some, not all) I'll post a few here that I did on the SC that I think were very good to have done.

Good SC Mods

1 - BHJ Balancer. The stock one isn't exactly junk if you can find a brand new one, but they aren't that great either. And with most of the SC's probably having over 100k miles anymore - they are just waiting to fail. Do yourself a favor, spend the money on a BHJ for your SC. At this point, it's either a Ford unit or BHJ. And I'd rather spend the extra money for the BHJ to know it's a good, quality piece.

2 - Intercooler upgrade - Even if you aren't planning to be one of the quickest, an IC upgrade is a good thing. No, I'm not talking about just a fan - I'm saying a better one. I like front mount's if they are built well. But you haveta do it right so it doesn't block air flow to the radiator (or upgrade the radiator to help prevent over heating) I recommend just a double IC - A good, well built double IC. Ken Wagner (kenewagner) builds them for a reasonable amount and they are very nice. They even come with a fan shroud on with holes to mount of for an IC fan if you choose.

3 - Gears - While I've experience before and after with gears on a vehicle of my own, I do think they are a good bang for the buck mod. But you haveta be willing to sacrifice some fuel mileage for the gain on the street/strip. Normally, it's not too much. Unless you drive alot different than I do.

4 - Lentech Valvebody (specifically for AOD's) - If you have an AOD and want a shift kit - don't waste your time with a TransGo. Just go straight to a Lentech. That was one of the best things I did with my 91. For those who aren't sure - it gives you full manual control of your transmission, including an OD lockout if you wire it up. No more doing the 1-D-1 shuffle to get it into 2nd gear.

That's all I've got for now :)
-Melon

[seawalkersee]

I do not agree with the relocation kit, FPR, or EGR Delete. The relocation kit has a lot of bennies. More oil means cooler oil. It also means more fluid area to keep clean (though you will not notice this when you do an oil change). If you have a problem with the oil lines, there is a problem. I have had mine for at least two years and it works great...I can change the oil in my car (4.6) without even turning the wheels. As far as the FPR, for small setups that do not have a lot of demand, why not? There won't be a problem. The EGR runs heat into the intake system and heats up the air charge. Thats bad, right?

As far as the boost a pump, since you are such and advocate of the meth injection, how do you know there will not be the same problem? Espically since the same thing could happen with detonation?

Not ment to be an arguement, just a HEATED debate:D

Chris

[2TonCat]

Hehe, nice pun :D

Methanol -- From everything I've read, the actual "Fuel" quality of the methanol isn't dense enough to throw off your air fuel ratio more than a decimal point or two. Yes, your methanol system can short out too, but you can tune the car to adjust timing based on air charge temperature. You can't compensate as well with fuel because you aren't importing your fuel pressure into the computer, and a narrowband 02 isn't always going to pick up the ratio change.

FPR -- Its just not the right way to do it. Yes, it does work for very small changes. Not for me though. Maybee I should say that its something that shouldn't be used when dynotuning a car. That would be more accurate. If I were to tune a vehicle, I wouldn't want the FPR throwing things off on my injection tables.

EGR -- EGR is only going to be used during partial throttle, and idle if tuned to do so. There shouldn't be much of a need to cool the air charge. I was saying that EGR cools the cylinders since the temperature of the spent fuel is lower than the temperature of the burning fuel.

Filter re-location -- Fair enough. It has its benefits, yes... Less coolant to heat up and dirty, easier filter changes... Its just not something I would put on any of my cars.

[traveler]

I have a compromise on the EGR installed. I got a Gasket with a much smaller opening in it. Restricts the Exhaust gas so there isn't as much; no EGR Check engine light. :D

The Oil filter relocation is almost required on my car. I have an 89 SC front sway bar and between it being both larger in diameter, not shaped quite the same as the stock bar, its even harder to change the filter than usual. The remote just makes it easier.

The rest of it is just greek to me!

[Kevin Leitem]

i don't agree with the AFPR. I have one and i could not live without it. not only is it vital to my tuning, a heck of alot cheaper than paying some one to tune the car or paying for dyno time. I have the SCT proracer package and have the abilitly to tune my car any way i want, but i leave my fuel tables and maf tables stock. i only use the chip to change spark, revlimits, fans, and crap like that. i basically use different sample tubes to get in the ballpark and fine tune with the fuel pressure. to me it is much easier and quicker, and plus the car still starts and idles like stock. so far good enough for 10.69

[traveler]

I'm seeing a pattern here. It involves opinions. Though there have been some good points brought up.

[2TonCat]

I'm seeing a pattern here. It involves opinions. Though there have been some good points brought up.

I agree completely. These are definately going to be biased towards the poster's ideology of how things can be done.

I have my "Right way" of doing things, and will stick to them. As we see, Kevin has his ways too (and some gonads for doing it that way if you'd ask me) and so does everyone else.

If anything, I'm probably just more anal about these things than almost everyone... I'm very obsessive compulsive when it comes to archetecture, and having part 123 do the job it was meant to do, and nothing more.

Michael... When did you install that EGR Gasket? and when did your MPG drop?

[traveler]

The restrictor went in a few months ago. And I know what you're getting at. It hasn't made any difference in the mileage. Not sure about the performance yet. Haven't made a new run since putting it in. If there is a difference, it isn't a big one thats for sure.

[Kevin Leitem]

I agree completely. These are definately going to be biased towards the poster's ideology of how things can be done.

I have my "Right way" of doing things, and will stick to them. As we see, Kevin has his ways too (and some gonads for doing it that way if you'd ask me) and so does everyone else.

If anything, I'm probably just more anal about these things than almost everyone... I'm very obsessive compulsive when it comes to archetecture, and having part 123 do the job it was meant to do, and nothing more.

Michael... When did you install that EGR Gasket? and when did your MPG drop?

i did have mine tuned the "right way" by dave , did not work so i went back to my way. i am not saying my way is right, just there are more ways to doing things than what a book says. i use an LM1 and datalog every run so there really is not anything going on that i need big gonads for.

[CMac89]

The truth of what works isn't at all nebulous, which isn't conceived as an opinion, ya know?

AFPR and Boost-A-Pumps: Possible required modifications to increase fuel volume to the motor, which would be needed to acquire a certain A/F ratio depending on how much fuel the motor wants to use. If you have 60# injectors and they're at 100% duty cycle at 400rwhp and 35psi base pressure, what do you do? Increase pressure to the rail by using an AFPR. If the fuel system can't hold the pressure with given rise of boost, then you need more work from the fuel pump somehow. What do most people do? Get a Boost-A-Pump. What happens if the fuel pump starts to go bad and reduces output? What if....What if...You can't get rid of those sayings. Variables everywhere.

Methanol: Used to cool intake charge and add octane, which reduces potential for detonation. The addition of fuel allows you to use less gasoline, in turn gives you more injector. Methanol injection will affect the AFR by a point. This system is also prone to failure. Everyone that uses it, knows the risk and stays positive about it.

You're right about the EGR, but it isn't anything uncontrollable by tuning. For what it's worth, get rid of it. BIG PITA. (There's an opinion;).)

Remote oil filter: All oil pump systems have a bypass. If there's a restriction anywhere in a system, the less the pump will bypass. I have a good amount of experience with these systems. On my race motors, I was running -10AN lines to and from my oil filter bracket. Kept wiping bearings out and didn't know why. Come to find out, the smallest diameter in the whole hose system is the ferule that goes into the hose that the hose end clamps on top of. Went to a -12, and it was twenty thousandths larger than the diameter of the oil passages in the block. Works beautifully now. Point being; the hose better have a large enough volume to supply the motor with oil. The slight differences in pressure drop won't be seen because it will compensate by bypassing less.

Converters: They completely dictate what a car will run. Just like heads; they're only as good as the cam you have, in the motor. If you don't want to run a stall worthwhile, reduce the size, and increase the multiple enough, then get a 5-speed car. Otherwise, you won't have very much fun.

[2TonCat]

LOL! I'm amazed how many interesting tech posts you get when you say blanket "This part sucks" statements!!

Michael... Gotta give you credit... You're much smarter than me in ways I'll probably never achieve... For instance... You set a goal with your car that's reasonable, and then go do it. I just buy pretty parts :) I don't think I'll be as tactful either... If I were you, I would probably be like 'Hey douchebag, my relocation kit kicks ~~~!'

Kevin... Just a guess... You got into cars when carb tuning was still mainstream? I'm a youngin, and it seems like a crime to tune a car without the computer! :P I'm actually suprised you didn't change any of the injection tables with the Pro Racer Package... If you can do it with a damn sample tube, you can sure as hell change a number!

CMac, I don't plan on ever maxxing out 60lb injectors, but if I did, would there be a reason not to get larger ones instead of a boost-a-pump and AFPR?

[seawalkersee]

But with larger injectors, you still run into the problem of volume. You can in crease pressure and get the same volume, but you can also decrease pressure by increasing the output size (injector) to keep it workable. I believe most cars that have a boost a pump system, need it to function. By making an engine that requires a ton of volume of fuel, they need more when the get to the positive boost.

Chris

[2TonCat]

But why a boost-a-pump when you can get a fuel pump that was designed to output enough fuel for what you're doing??

[CMac89]

It depends on what money you want to spend. Yeah, it's better to put a fuel cell in and run an A1000 with -10AN lines, but not many people have the $600-$700 to do it. They have the $150, or whatever it costs, for the booster.

Pump volume should ALWAYS come before injector size. The limits I speak of don't show up past 60# injectors until 400-450rwhp. Still, it's all relative for the volume you need, which is why people put 255 Walbro's in instead of leaving the stock one there. I'm just talking about a larger pump, or more volume from the 255 FI pump by increased voltage.

There are ls1 guys making 800rwhp with a centrifugal blower and 60# injectors. Since injectors are a function of what each individual cylinder produces, in HP, that would be 600rwhp for a V6 car. The catch to them making good HP with that is because their base fuel pressure (from the factory) is 58psi. The stock regulator for an SC, runs 40psi. With an AFPR, you can run whatever base pressure you want. If you increase the base pressure a good amount, then the pump may not have the volume to keep up with that, therefore, the reason for a better fuel system, or more commonly, the use of an Boost-A-Pump.

If you're around 300-350rwhp, maybe just a bit more, then injectors and a stock regulator will work fine. Still, it's better to have parts that you are in control of.

Good debate, here, as well as some good info for the future. I like debates.

Chris is a MasterDebater.:)

[2TonCat]

LOL! So what you're saying is that we have it all wrong and need to get LS1s? :D:D:D

To me, it's worth the extra money to not worry about a boost-a-pump failing, but I guess a fuel pump could fail and have an output drop.

Question for you... Does anyone make FPRs that monitor line pressure, and if they see a drop past their calibrated settings (Say a failed boost-a-pump) they can automatically adjust themselves to compensate?

I'm going to go see how many different inputs megasquirt can take for fuel trim adjustments... Might be able to wire in a fuel pressure sending unit in as a "Ambient Air Temp" sensor and adjust fuel trims by what the fuel pressure is... That would be cool.

[CMac89]

I know you were just bein silly, but to be clear I was using ls1's as an example to express how we can do the same thing to increase output of injectors.

There isn't EXACTLY a part as you're trying to explain. However, Aeromotive makes a fuel pump voltage controller that inputs variable voltage that would be required to supply the motor at any percentage of throttle and RPM. If you have a fuel pump wired up regularly, then the pump is full tilt the whole time, instead of calming down during idle, part throttle, etc... Increases life of the pump, too.

If you loose pressure to the fuel rail, it's the pumps fault for not having enough volume to keep up. If, for some case, a large enough pump goes bad, you can't compensate for it's defection by increased voltage. If it's bad, it's bad.

MS has datalogging capabilities for fuel pressure. It doesn't have anything that controls the function of the fuel pump though.

[2TonCat]

I was thinking more of an adaptive fuel trim as a safety measure...

Just like enrichment for colder air, but instead, wired into a fuel pressure sender.... say I'm driving around, and my fuel pump starts to shell... The computer sees a slight fuel pressure drop, and holds the injectors open longer to preserve the a/f I am targeting.

EDIT: Looks like I might be able to bastardize the barometric correction stuff on MS....

[Randy N Connie]

Ford Racing sells a dual pump to increase fuel volume,and pressures.
Its a ford GT500 part its a plug and play for the stang guys.

Randy

[Micahdogg]

External fuel pumps are loud too. I know David Neibert opted for the KB boostapump because he was having a little trouble keeping volume up with his nitrous engaged. That is a good application. The single 255 works fine 99% of the time. Boostapump kicks in when you use N20.

[seawalkersee]

LOL! So what you're saying is that we have it all wrong and need to get LS1s? :D:D:D

.

If I had to do it again....you bet I would. In fact, the next one will probably be powered that way.

Chris

[2TonCat]

If I had to do it again....you bet I would. In fact, the next one will probably be powered that way.

Chris

I have to agree it would be a fun swap. just Might have to go standalone at that point.

[joshbea6]

I want to see just what kinds of gains I'll get using the 4.6L DOHC blown over the 3.8L SC.

[Kevin Leitem]

LOL! I'm amazed how many interesting tech posts you get when you say blanket "This part sucks" statements!!

Michael... Gotta give you credit... You're much smarter than me in ways I'll probably never achieve... For instance... You set a goal with your car that's reasonable, and then go do it. I just buy pretty parts :) I don't think I'll be as tactful either... If I were you, I would probably be like 'Hey douchebag, my relocation kit kicks ~~~!'

Kevin... Just a guess... You got into cars when carb tuning was still mainstream? I'm a youngin, and it seems like a crime to tune a car without the computer! :P I'm actually suprised you didn't change any of the injection tables with the Pro Racer Package... If you can do it with a damn sample tube, you can sure as hell change a number!

CMac, I don't plan on ever maxxing out 60lb injectors, but if I did, would there be a reason not to get larger ones instead of a boost-a-pump and AFPR?

actually, i never touched a carb, i am 32 years old and never had a vehicle other than a work truck with a carb. at the track it is much easier to change fuel pressure than to take the chip out, hook up to a laptop. change the tune, burn it on the chip, replace chip. when it litterally takes 30 seconds to adjust pressure. i learned years ago how to manipulate the computer to do what i wanted without a chip. I run an MSD DIS4 and do most of my timing control with that. i just set the chip with a higher timing table then retard it with the MSD. again quicker and easier. back before i got the chip i used to take the ACT sensor, unplug it and plug a spare sensor to it and place it on the cowl to trick the computer in to thinking the air temp was ambient. I ran as fas as 11.66 with a 100% stock computer with no chip. I think a lot of people overthink things and actually make things more difficult than needed. remember i am at the track every week, i try to make thing as easy to adjust so i have time to worry, think about more important things. for those that go to the track once a year, then no an AFPR is not worth the money. but if you go to the track a lot, then definately i think it is a must have.

[Kevin Leitem]

External fuel pumps are loud too. I know David Neibert opted for the KB boostapump because he was having a little trouble keeping volume up with his nitrous engaged. That is a good application. The single 255 works fine 99% of the time. Boostapump kicks in when you use N20.

an areomotive A1000 can be submerged in the tank to lessen noise, but again i like the noise:D

[Kevin Leitem]

i also ran 11.30 on 42 lb injectors, they were too small, but did the job because of my A1000 pump and AFPR. i ran as high as 65 lbs static fuel pressure to make up for the small injectors

[Micahdogg]

actually, i never touched a carb, i am 32 years old and never had a vehicle other than a work truck with a carb. at the track it is much easier to change fuel pressure than to take the chip out, hook up to a laptop. change the tune, burn it on the chip, replace chip. when it litterally takes 30 seconds to adjust pressure. i learned years ago how to manipulate the computer to do what i wanted without a chip. I run an MSD DIS4 and do most of my timing control with that. i just set the chip with a higher timing table then retard it with the MSD. again quicker and easier. back before i got the chip i used to take the ACT sensor, unplug it and plug a spare sensor to it and place it on the cowl to trick the computer in to thinking the air temp was ambient. I ran as fas as 11.66 with a 100% stock computer with no chip. I think a lot of people overthink things and actually make things more difficult than needed. remember i am at the track every week, i try to make thing as easy to adjust so i have time to worry, think about more important things. for those that go to the track once a year, then no an AFPR is not worth the money. but if you go to the track a lot, then definately i think it is a must have.

I think there is a lot of merit to this Kevin. There certainly have been a lot of fast cars in the NMRA that went fast just like this. You always have the argument that a tuned combo will most likely produce better results, but then again, if you are meeting your goals...what is the point.

[cmill95]

i also ran 11.30 on 42 lb injectors, they were too small, but did the job because of my A1000 pump and AFPR. i ran as high as 65 lbs static fuel pressure to make up for the small injectors

now that's what i call instant atomization!

[traveler]

.....Michael... Gotta give you credit... You're much smarter than me in ways I'll probably never achieve... For instance... You set a goal with your car that's reasonable, and then go do it. I just buy pretty parts :) I don't think I'll be as tactful either... If I were you, I would probably be like 'Hey douchebag, my relocation kit kicks ~~~!'



LOL Well thank you. The reason the goal is reasonable is I know just how broke I am. And the tact, well ya get that way working in the Mental health field for 20 years. Its tact or go home.