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nwnsc
05-31-2008, 06:52 PM
which HG will hold the most boost? is it copper, mls, regular felpro, ect. and what max psi are they poping at?

Jim Demmitt Jr
05-31-2008, 07:56 PM
which HG will hold the most boost? is it copper, mls, regular felpro, ect. and what max psi are they poping at?

Copper is best

I run Copper head gasket with O-ringed block with receiver groove in the heads holds a 11.1 and 35PSI this will hold the most boost MLS is ok to a point than big problems. I have SCE Specialty Component Engineering Copper head gaskets

Mike8675309
06-01-2008, 12:33 AM
The heads will always lift. Likely from 15psi and up. The question is which head gasket is going to allow the head to move and still maintain it's integrity.

Thus far the answer has been the felpro perma-torque MLS gasket. Many cars running over 20psi have avoided blowing the head gaskets out. Copper will certainly work as well though it simply hasn't been shown to be necessary. You won't want copper unless necessary as you tend to have cold water leaks.

David Neibert
06-01-2008, 01:20 AM
It's not really the boost that blows head gaskets, it's the resulting detonation that comes from too much boost or too much timing or not enough charge air cooling or too much oil in the cylinders or not enough octane or any combo of those things. I like the MLS gaskets with APR head studs and that's what most people are using with race motors of all types these days.

Biggest problem with using copper gaskets is the need to retorque the heads after the initial heat cycle...no problem if doing it on an engine dyno, but a big pain in the azz if doing it in the car.

David

Jim Demmitt Jr
06-01-2008, 01:33 AM
It's not really the boost that blows head gaskets, it's the resulting detonation that comes from too much boost or too much timing or not enough carge air cooling or too much oil in the cylinders or not enough octane or any combo of those things. I like the MLS gaskets with APR head studs and that's what most people are using with race motors of all types these days.

Biggest problem with using copper gaskets is the need to retorque the heads after the initial heat cycle...no problem if doing it on an engine dyno, but a big pain in the azz if doing it in the car.

David



Correction on that

You do not need to re-torque the heads with copper head gaskests once torque to right spec I never have on my SC. I been running copper head gaskests for years on my SC with no problems and no leaks. I use Permatex red spary sealer on the gaskest seals perfect same as I use on my big blocks. If you have a high compession or high boost 3.8V6 engine Copper is the way to go MLS will last for a while but why not do it right the fail safe way

dwayne
06-01-2008, 01:49 AM
i know this is not sc related,but every engine my brother in law re builds,he uses the copper gaskets and dont re tourk them.

nwnsc
06-01-2008, 04:21 AM
thanks guys! want to make sure it holds up to me beating on it with the set up im working on. Jim do you have a pic of the o-ringed block and heads? how much boost is safe with 91 gas? with proper intercooling ofcorse.:D

Young-SC-Owner
06-01-2008, 10:59 AM
Jim do you have a pic of the o-ringed block and heads?

+1 on pics

David Neibert
06-01-2008, 11:12 AM
Correction on that

You do not need to re-torque the heads with copper head gaskests once torque to right spec I never have on my SC. I been running copper head gaskests for years on my SC with no problems and no leaks. I use Permatex red spary sealer on the gaskest seals perfect same as I use on my big blocks. If you have a high compession or high boost 3.8V6 engine Copper is the way to go MLS will last for a while but why not do it right the fail safe way

Jim,

According to SCE and every other copper gasket manufacturer, you do need to retorque them. That is one of the main reasons that most people have switched to MLS gaskets.

http://www.scegasketsonline.com/techtips/engineprep.html

David

Jim Demmitt Jr
06-01-2008, 11:44 AM
Jim,

According to SCE and every other copper gasket manufacturer, you do need to retorque them. That is one of the main reasons that most people have switched to MLS gaskets.

http://www.scegasketsonline.com/techtips/engineprep.html

David



They all say that

I never had to re-torque the SCE copper head gaskets on the SC I do on the Boss engine and the other big block racing engines. The SC being so little and head serface so small when I torque to my spec using Permetex red spary sealer never had to re-torque the heads and this is the 3rd engine been through the whole ball of wax no problems no leaks ne head lifting ( Fail Safe )


As you should know all blown alcohol and nitro and pro stock engines use copper head gaskets with o-ringed block and receiver groove in the heads. If you dont put a receiver groove in the heads its waste of time and money

I have a special made BJH tooling to put the receiver groove in the heads MLS is ok for some setups but if your making big boost and have a high compression engine the copper 0-riged way is the best way

Mike8675309
06-01-2008, 03:50 PM
Some thoughts.

#1- Standard composite graphite head gaskets become prone to failure due to head movement. The head moves exposing the cooling passage. This migrates to the fire ring on the head gasket, eventually corroding that ring causing failure.

#2 - MLS Gaskets don't deform and the permatorque versions are designed to allow maintaining of cooling passage seals even with movmement of the heads.

#3 - When looking at the best head gasket, you need to take into account how you intend to use the motor. Doing what a top fuel dragster or a NASCAR stock car does only becomes a sure thing if you understand all the down sides to using such technology in a daily driver.

Miller
06-01-2008, 03:58 PM
They all say that


yah. what a bunch of panzies.

TEAM ~~~

Jim Demmitt Jr
06-01-2008, 04:20 PM
thanks guys! want to make sure it holds up to me beating on it with the set up im working on. Jim do you have a pic of the o-ringed block and heads? how much boost is safe with 91 gas? with proper intercooling ofcorse.:D



Question?

What compession ratio are you running? you have to factor that in here is a few pictures of one of the extra sets of SCE copper head gaskets. I have the motor together it would be hard to show you other stuff going copper with o-riged block and receiver groove in heads its fail safe why not do it right the first time

nwnsc
06-01-2008, 04:42 PM
it's a stock short block and ported heads. but im buliding a turbo kit to feed the blower.:D and i have blown a few HG's with just 15-18 psi in my old SC. new set up will put out a lot more than that. so im geting my low mile spare ready with a set of ported hesds. just want to have something that will hold up and be ready to go when i blow this stock 120000 mile long block up.lol im still makeing the kit right now and going through the spare im going to use when it's time.

Jim Demmitt Jr
06-01-2008, 07:20 PM
it's a stock short block and ported heads. but im buliding a turbo kit to feed the blower.:D and i have blown a few HG's with just 15-18 psi in my old SC. new set up will put out a lot more than that. so im geting my low mile spare ready with a set of ported hesds. just want to have something that will hold up and be ready to go when i blow this stock 120000 mile long block up.lol im still makeing the kit right now and going through the spare im going to use when it's time.


TurboCharger

Like the old days neat idea, I will need to go to higher grade of fuel VP MS 109 or Q10 with the added boost levels you better go to 0-ringed block and copper head gaskets with receiver groove in the heads. I run 11.1 compession with 35psi if I had MLS it would spit them out at first hit. Once you get your kit done should build a stout shortblock with stroker crank big bore Eagle rods or like me if you got the cash Titanium rods

pro street rich
06-01-2008, 07:41 PM
I went with the MLS and the arp's with good results. I have been running boost OVER 35 lbs and the gaskets have stayed in place for me.
Someone said that copper is the way to go, well as being a guy who has built more big blocks then I would like to count I might know something on this.. Copper is great for an engine that will be getting taken apart and rebuilt all the time. Most ALL of the big "fuel" guys run them or something very close to what you can buy for our engines.There is a reason they run them too. Easy to rebuild between runs, no mess no fuss..and they don't care if it leaks a bit of water out when it is first started, that is if they even run coolent in them..
Copper with "O" rings works, but it is not the way to go on a street engine.If you want to build a "all out" race engine then go that route.
Like I said, I have been running some crazy boost for a while now and the head gaskets have been good to me. Oh also before someone gets going, there is also a lot more compression in this engine that I will admit to, lets just say it is almost too high.............Rich

David Neibert
06-02-2008, 12:02 AM
TurboCharger

Like the old days neat idea, I will need to go to higher grade of fuel VP MS 109 or Q10 with the added boost levels you better go to 0-ringed block and copper head gaskets with receiver groove in the heads. I run 11.1 compession with 35psi if I had MLS it would spit them out at first hit. Once you get your kit done should build a stout shortblock with stroker crank big bore Eagle rods or like me if you got the cash Titanium rods

The MLS gaskets will hold that much boost because that's about how much the 6 second small block ford pro mod cars are running with them (2500-3000 HP). Some guys don't like using them because they will usually break a piston or bend a rod before the gasket fails.

Titainium...really, I thought all the big dogs used aluminum rods.

David

Jim Demmitt Jr
06-02-2008, 12:11 AM
The MLS gaskets will hold that much boost because that's about how much the 6 second small block ford pro mod cars are running with them (2500-3000 HP). Some guys don't like using them because they will usually break a piston or bend a rod before the gasket fails.

Titainium...really, I thought all the big dogs used aluminum rods.

David


Pro Mod 6 second Supercharged car run MLS Hummmmmmm thats new to me but I think if you look through and do some reserch you find differaint. And yes Titanium we also built Cobra 427 with titanium rods they run hard for hours lighter and stronger than aluminum rods

David Neibert
06-02-2008, 12:28 AM
Pro Mod 6 second car run MLS Hummmmmmm thats new to me but I think if you look through and do some reserch you find differaint. And yes Titanium we also built Cobra 427 with titanium rods they run hard for hours lighter and stronger than aluminum rods

Jim,

I did extensive research on the topic before building the motor for my turbo car. MLS gaskets are replacing copper and oringing the block or heads in just about every race motor application.

David

Jim Demmitt Jr
06-02-2008, 12:36 AM
Jim,

I did extensive research on the topic before building the motor for my turbo car. MLS gaskets are replacing copper and oringing the block or heads in just about every race motor application.

David


Thats good for you if you like MLS all the Supercharged and Nitrous Pro Mods big or small block run Copper head gaskets with O-ringed block and receiver groove in the heads all the engine builders I know. Each person has there own ideas some are in the wrong direction others are fail safe. I like the copper head gasket setup I ran it in differaint race engines and its never failed I know it works

Miller
06-02-2008, 12:44 AM
I wonder what Dr. Casey has to say on the matter.

racecougar
06-02-2008, 07:19 AM
So where can I score some of these titanium rods?

-Rod

95_XR7
06-02-2008, 07:55 AM
Each person has there own ideas some are in the wrong direction others are fail safe.

Who's to say the Copperheadgaskets and an o-ringed block is fail safe?
Basically, if you say that, you're saying that you are right, and EVERYONE else on here running MLS, and everyone else in the automotive world running MLS is wrong?

Hmm. I'd go MLS bud, like David, Mike, and Rich have all said.

-Corey

seawalkersee
06-02-2008, 10:19 AM
Why does it matter which one you will use when you have an o-ringed block? If it is a MLS or Copper, I figured it would all be the same with the exception of spraying the gasket surface on the coppers. Am I off base here?

Chris

David Neibert
06-02-2008, 11:05 AM
Why does it matter which one you will use when you have an o-ringed block? If it is a MLS or Copper, I figured it would all be the same with the exception of spraying the gasket surface on the coppers. Am I off base here?

Chris

Chris,

You can't use MLS with an oringed block or heads.

David

MagpoweredSC
06-02-2008, 11:09 AM
There is no such thing as a fail safe part on any RACE engine.

BLOWN38
06-02-2008, 11:33 AM
Chris,

You can't use MLS with an oringed block or heads.

David

Not tring to sound like a weeeeenor, but my block has and oring in it and I'm am using the permatorque mls gaskets. So far so good on 19 psi. The oring sits right in the little groove on the gaskets. Guess I got lucky. If i was building a new block I would not get the oring installed and just use the MLS's.

The only reason I have the oring there is from my early engine build before the mls's came out. So I had Coy Miller oring it for the graphite gaskets.

David Neibert
06-02-2008, 11:48 AM
Not tring to sound like a weeeeenor, but my block has and oring in it and I'm am using the permatorque mls gaskets. So far so good on 19 psi. The oring sits right in the little groove on the gaskets. Guess I got lucky. If i was building a new block I would not get the oring installed and just use the MLS's.

The only reason I have the oring there is from my early engine build before the mls's came out. So I had Coy Miller oring it for the graphite gaskets.

Chris,

Since the embossed area of the gasket usually sits right on or in the oring groove and doesn't allow for proper compression of the gasket, is exactly why you aren't supposed to do. I've seen people fill the groove with JB weld and sand the surface smooth and not have any problems with the MLS gaskets, but your the first one I've heard of who installed them with an open groove.

David

PS: I'm not saying that copper gaskets and oringing the block or heads doesn't work, just saying it isn't necessary except for the most extreme motors like Top Fuel & Funny Car.

David Neibert
06-02-2008, 11:56 AM
Thats good for you if you like MLS all the Supercharged and Nitrous Pro Mods big or small block run Copper head gaskets with O-ringed block and receiver groove in the heads all the engine builders I know. Each person has there own ideas some are in the wrong direction others are fail safe. I like the copper head gasket setup I ran it in differaint race engines and its never failed I know it works


Jim,

Several pro-mod cars are using Cometic MLS gaskets, there are even some pictures of them on the front page of Cometic's website.

Cometic (http://www.cometic.com/default.aspx)

Here's an article discussing the application of various type head gaskets (including copper) that has more info on MLS gaskets.

Article (http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1260/engine_sealing_high_performance_head_gaskets.aspx)

David

BLOWN38
06-02-2008, 12:30 PM
My groove not open it still has the oring in it.

notorious sc
06-02-2008, 03:30 PM
MMaaaannnnnn..........there some people that just have special cars,especially is they change the laws of physics in every which way....WOW

Kevin Leitem
06-02-2008, 07:10 PM
i have always ran the standard felpro graphite gasket with an o ringed block. and by the end of the year i usually blew them out. basically because i get greddy and get a little too aggresive on the tune. But i didn't mind blowing a gasket, better than blowing a hole in the block or bending rods. but this year i did have the O rings shaved off and will be running MLS gaskets this year. which i know i am going to regret. just have to remind myself that i no longer will have the " saftey valve" . but all in all for the amount of abuse the engine gets in one year, standard felpro's with o rings should last a street car (that sees the track very little) a very long time.