WHat I Leared at the Dyno Today

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Well being I am not at all well versed in tuning I thought I'd share the things I have learned about tuning in general...my sct pro racer package and well how the day went..

So first off the things I realized....

The SCT Pro Racer package doesnt have neearrrlllyyyy as many parameters to adjust as does a standard dealer package. God bad?...Well I think its kinda...ehh well

Different tuners have different approaches to tuning. I still have no idea what I'M doing but I can now see how and why thing sare as they are.

The SCT software has some built in limitations that other tuning software does not..

And a 90mm Lightnig maf DEFINITELY DOES NOT PEG..It really is in the tune...Or teh software chosen to tune with..

Ok now the Dyno

My car would not run correctly with the proper MAF transfer function and injector files loaded. At first I had the wrong MAF.....Yesterday I recieved the proper MAf and still....FUBAR...It actually feels as though its down 100 or so RWHP

My car does however idle great and runs pretty dam good without the chip or MAF plugged in.....Errrrr..There is that lost RWHP

WHat do I know...I figured it needs to be adjusted...Well my car went on the dyno today to put some load on it in order to set some stuff up. The car just isnt responding.

Take chip out..MAf off.....Runs fine....

So next up...

Millers car//

Originally 319rwhp..Now has an A/R and 60lb injectors all other things being equal(still using 90mm lightning MAF)

I'm not going to get into all that was done..However it started off pig rich. Using a loading technique on the dyno the transfer function was setup and then the AF ratio was tweaked. It was hovering around 12 and the people at hand tuning were trying to get it a tad bit on the safe side. So bit by bit it was brought into the 11.5 range. No timing was being added as this tuner seemd to like to straighten out the transfer function and AF ration before doing so (I assume this is common place)

Throught the process RWHP went from 256 or so running pig rich to around 356...Not exact numbers but they were aorund there and on partial runs only.

A lil tweaking hear and there with the AF and a full run was made...413rwhp....Another was around 410rwhp..Not happy with the tail end of the AF ratio it crept up to around 12 some more tweaking was done and then the AF ration dropped a full point and RWHP dropped about a full 100

Thats when we noticed a whisteling sound..Somethings leaking...Back on the dyno the AF ratio went back to normal but then toward the end of the run shot back down a full point again. The leak seems to be comming from the bypass area...May be comming from somewhere else also...But that area is a for sure...We will go over it with a fine tooth comb

To make a long story rreeall short we cut the tuning session after that. My car is fubar and Millers has some kind of a leak. 413rwhp was made without even tuning for power..No timing added...nothing..And the lightning MAF did not nearly peg.

The good news is Miller has a real safe tune so that once the leak is fixed will work well till it goes back up

So lessons learned.

Make 100% sure your car is 100% mechanically sound before getting a dyno tune otherwise iyst a waste..Thats common sence.But heck I didnt knwo how my car should run with the SCT variables..Apparently allot better then it does!

I really need to track down what can be wrong with my car

As for Millah...Expect to see some big numbers

[David Neibert]

Damon,

I expected Miller's car to break 400 rwhp without much drama, just like all the other AR cars. BTW, What transmission is in Miller's car ?

David

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

ALSO....Millers factory rev limiter was not changed and the car was still making power at that rpm..It was a line that just kept going up...Unsure if wed want to push a stock high mile block much past that point.....But the dyno chart looked like a straight line heading to heavan..Ohh yahhh

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Its an auto nothing special...And remember he has a 520 lift cam and stock valved ported heads. Like I said the fact it was still pulling strong at the factory rev limiter is pretty wild.WIthout even tuning for power

[David Neibert]

AOD non locking or electronic with 3rd gear lockup ? At what rpms did he make the 413 rwhp ?

David

[dwayne]

I have no idea of what you just potsed,it,s all greek to me.thats hoe stupid i am about these cars.i do know what RWHP is,thats why i leave mine as is.:eek:

[MagpoweredSC]

I have no idea of what you just potsed,it,s all greek to me.thats hoe stupid i am about these cars.i do know what RWHP is,thats why i leave mine as is.:eek:

rwhp= rear wheel horsepower

[dwayne]

yea that much i know,but the rest over my head.

[KwikGSeX]

I also learned that RX7's make great stands for potted plants yesterday. :D

Damon I seriously suspect your EEC is taking a crap on you.

[superdadsc]

Hey Damon, How much boost was the AR producing? Good job. Those SC's are bad to the bone.

Stephen

[Miller]

21psi........

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

21 psi and I believe it was 5400 where the runs were cut off and where max power was being made on millers car. It really had more to go.

The transmission still had the torque reduction thingamagig still functioning and all runs were done in third gear. I didnt see anything changed in which the run would have been in full lockup mode of the converter..AT that power level I;m sure his converter would have taken a big dump if we were to do a run under load with lockup

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

It was my EEC...Put new one in today..Loaded in a tune..Installed chip...WAALLAAHH
..

Needs some work but runs and drives with good power

[Miller]

fkn A man. good stuff

[tbirdsc357]

Thats pretty good......400+HP on some stock valve heads and an auto.

I hate dyno's......never had one that I was ever happy with. I think every single time I've had my car on the dyno, for one reason or the other, I have been disappointed. My car just does not seem to do well on them. Ah well, it is what it is.

BTW, was this a dynojet?

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

dyno dynamics

[Mike.Jones_49]

Damon, could you explain more of this 90mm pegging phenomenon? I'm not familiar with this. Who says it pegs? What makes it peg? Should I be worried about my MAF pegging? Is there anyone else that could possibly explain what all of this means?

Overall, I was there, and have to say that Millers car is very impressive, aside from the blower. That thing is just looks horrid to work on, and uses a plastic bypass valve from hell. I know that whipple use those things some years ago, and they were junk back then.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

All I know is that the lightning MAF was not close to pegging and Millers car was very impressive. Being a non tuning idiot...I cant get get into specifics except that when you try to tune a certain way you may run into limitations. Limitations that are self imposed...Could also be the software that tricks you into thinking you need to do things a certain way.

Basically if you understand how to tune,You can tune anything. Its more then just understanding what works but how it works. WHat all of the variables do not just a few. Once you understand that its a no brainer. Watching someone tune a car is a pretty cool thing.

I guess I also learned i will need to dedicate more time then I probably have to understand all this right now....

And Millers car for looking liek it was dredged from teh bottom of an ocean was very impressive..Teh plastic bypass valve is most likely teh culprit...I will be helping h im diagnose leak issues..

And guys with AR's..Do not use purple power to clean them...

[Miller]

dragged from the bottom of the ocean.. bahaha

[David Neibert]

All I know is that the lightning MAF was not close to pegging and Millers car was very impressive. Being a non tuning idiot...I cant get get into specifics except that when you try to tune a certain way you may run into limitations. Limitations that are self imposed...Could also be the software that tricks you into thinking you need to do things a certain way.

Basically if you understand how to tune,You can tune anything. Its more then just understanding what works but how it works. WHat all of the variables do not just a few. Once you understand that its a no brainer. Watching someone tune a car is a pretty cool thing.

I guess I also learned i will need to dedicate more time then I probably have to understand all this right now....

And Millers car for looking liek it was dredged from teh bottom of an ocean was very impressive..Teh plastic bypass valve is most likely teh culprit...I will be helping h im diagnose leak issues..

And guys with AR's..Do not use purple power to clean them...

Damon,

Good thing you had Jason there to help you out.

David

[CMac89]

The plastic deal is the solenoid, which uses vacuum to open the bypass valve. If it's bad, then the valve just stays shut.

[Mike.Jones_49]

Damon,

Good thing you had Jason there to help you out.

David

Jason Miller is a cool cat in my book.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

The plastic deal is the solenoid

Actually a solenoid is electromechanical in nature..Commoonne now. YOU should know that. The diaphram thingamagig which is made part of the Bypass system (I guess I should have said that) is the likely culprit (partialy at least). WHen these fail they tend to bind/crack causing the bypass to stay partially open as well as potentialy leaking vacuum. Although I dont think that is nearly 100% to blame it most likely is part of the culprit.

The way I see it from my non tuner point of view is that when you have x amount of air comming into the MAF and that number is a known variable that wasnt changing yet the amount of air entering the engine itself suddently changes along with some whistling and increase in blower noise from that general area, a loss of boost, a change in the sound of the whistling when spraying with brake cleaner.......Its safe to say SOMETHING is going on in that area. Now being the car would still idle fine and vacuum remained pretty much the same..I'm thinking more in terms of boost leaks then vacuum leaks.

But what do I know..I'm not a tuner nor a master mechanic.

But I will help Miller in the quest to see whats going on and reassymbly to make sure that there are no boost/vacuum leaks. Two sets of eyes are always better then one....One thing is for sure though. Our cars need bigger blowers and I highly doubt even an mpx on this same combination would even come close

[XR7 Dave]

(Removed by Admin.) Why are you guys trying to hide the fact that Jason KING aka "Carlisle Land Owner" was tuning the cars and he took the time to tell all of you how incompetent I am (once again) and you sucked it up having a great time taking something completely out of context and trying to beat me over the head with it.

If you guys are so awesome, please explain how you can through tuning, take a meter that has reached saturation (5.0v) and cause the voltage to drop down to where you can tune the curve. Please do this. I'm all ears.

And since Jason has sworn never to return to SCCOA, then why is he posting as Mike.Jones_49? I thought he was too good for us and we weren't worth his time (or something to that effect)? :confused:

[Toms-SC]

Pretty close to that 500 HP now.

[CMac89]

Yes, no currents to actuate it. MYYY BAAAADDD. I'll just call it a vacuum actuator. Voltage short of a solenoid.

You guys just LOVE the Lightning MAF. Like there's no other MAF in the world. If you look at the painting of Jesus' last supper, to his left, by the wine bottle, you can see a 90mm Lightning MAF. Apparently God put it there.

[KwikGSeX]

(Removed by Admin.) Why are you guys trying to hide the fact that Jason KING aka "Carlisle Land Owner" was tuning the cars and he took the time to tell all of you how incompetent I am (once again) and you sucked it up having a great time taking something completely out of context and trying to beat me over the head with it.

If you guys are so awesome, please explain how you can through tuning, take a meter that has reached saturation (5.0v) and cause the voltage to drop down to where you can tune the curve. Please do this. I'm all ears.

And since Jason has sworn never to return to SCCOA, then why is he posting as Mike.Jones_49? I thought he was too good for us and we weren't worth his time (or something to that effect)? :confused:


I think you are flying off the handle here a bit Dave. I was there for the better part of the day. Miller and Damon never hid the fact that Jason was tuning the car. Neither did he sit there and take the time preach to everyone how incompetent you are. He was too busy tracking down Team POS's problems on both the cars even tho I called it right from the start. Boost leak on Millers car and Bad EEC on Damon's. Of course no one wanted to believe me until i physically showed them the car had a boost leak by spraying down that area with starting fluid.

Why are you gettin so worked up about what Jason has to say? Who cares? You have your way of tuning and he has his. You use your MAF to tune and let him use his.. Both ways are producing power. Thats it and thats that.. Ive actually gotten a couple of phone calls from Jason complimenting some of your tuning lately. Your AFR's have come down from last year where we were seeing you consistently tuning from IMO a dangerously high 12.5:1 to a conservative and safe 11.5-7.

In the end its all for the benefit of everyone keeping the cars making high power.. And a lil friendly competition.. Cause remember.. 12.38 is still the number to beat :D Miller, Damon, Dalke.. Come take out FKR I DARE YA!!!!

[SUPERMN12]

Big congrats to miller!! When we going to cecil?

[Randy N Connie]

Great numbers Miller. how would one get ahold of this guy thats helping
tune your car? I hope to need a tune somday if & when I finish rebuilding a motor.. I stopped on doing any build up of my motor because I live in an
area of no tuners. So I seen no need to continue working on my motors.
This motor will be set up with the same type blower you have except
I plan a ported A/R, and heads that will flow 50% better than most
with larger cam.

I have one question on your injector size. are you useing #60 injectors?
If you are ,do you know the duty cycle or the percentage they are running
at during max RPMs of your engine??

Randy

[XR7 Dave]

I think you are flying off the handle here a bit Dave. I was there for the better part of the day. Miller and Damon never hid the fact that Jason was tuning the car. Neither did he sit there and take the time preach to everyone how incompetent you are. He was too busy tracking down Team POS's problems on both the cars even tho I called it right from the start. Boost leak on Millers car and Bad EEC on Damon's. Of course no one wanted to believe me until i physically showed them the car had a boost leak by spraying down that area with starting fluid.

Why are you gettin so worked up about what Jason has to say? Who cares? You have your way of tuning and he has his. You use your MAF to tune and let him use his.. Both ways are producing power. Thats it and thats that.. Ive actually gotten a couple of phone calls from Jason complimenting some of your tuning lately. Your AFR's have come down from last year where we were seeing you consistently tuning from IMO a dangerously high 12.5:1 to a conservative and safe 11.5-7.

In the end its all for the benefit of everyone keeping the cars making high power.. And a lil friendly competition.. Cause remember.. 12.38 is still the number to beat :D Miller, Damon, Dalke.. Come take out FKR I DARE YA!!!!

You are right. I got a little worked up about some things, I'm a little short on patience right now after spending about 40 hours over the course of this weekend under the hood of an SC. It will do that to you.

On the other hand I'm really tired of the innuendos and the "fact" that you have posted in your own post which reflects just how much I've "suffered" from misinformation intended to disparage me and my work.

I have never tuned cars to 12.5 AFR. I tuned just about exactly 2 cars to 12.2 in the past because the owners asked me to knowing full well the possible consequences of doing so. I have always targetted 11.8 AFR as long as I have been tuning for other people although in recent times I have been "drifting" a little richer yet since even as as rich as 11.0 nets a nominal difference in power in most cases. Jason has said in the past that "other tuners" (clearly referring to me) tune to 12.5 AFR but I don't know where he gets this info from. I have all the tune files from any car I have ever tuned. I can post dates and datalogs as well as fuel tables if it would do any good.

I am also tired of the MAF debate. I use calibrated MAF's for a number of reasons. I have used 90mm LMaf's before many times too. I don't see the benefit of the Lmaf. It works yes, but it doesn't work significantly (if any) better and it does present several installation issues that many SC owners have had trouble dealing with (like physical fitment for example). Damon's statement about "being ready" and "not having mechanical issues" prior to a tune so that you don't "waste" your tuner's time is golden. I have had much time wasted because people tried to shoehorn a 90MM MAF onto a 3" intake tube. We don't even need to go into how much of a problem that is when I've traveled 800 miles to do a tune and it's the weekend.....

What I also don't like is statements from people like Damon (the one above in CAPITALS for those not sure what I mean). Saying that a sensor will not "peg" is absurd. All sensors will reach their maximum at some point. We reached that maximum with Ira's car. We hit 5.0v repeatedly with that MAF. Then we installed a brand new 90mm Lmaf and it did the same thing. One of those MAF's is now running on Chris Vining's car without issue. The point is that the MAF hit 5.0v so unless you (meaning Jason) have a way to lower that and get the MAF back into range using software only then it would be nice to have some accurate information posted such as "Neither of us pegged our 90MM LMAF's" or something to that effect. Ricardo has not pegged his LMAF either. This is not news.

As for software limitations and artificial MAF limits, I hate to break it to you (Jason) but I discovered both the limitation and the work-arounds a long time ago. I have long suspected that it was a software limit and it was our own Fraser Turner (Frit) who nailed the parameter so that we could remove the limit in the software. This doesn't change the end result because like I said before, I learned the work-around several years ago on my own but it is nice to now be able to work without the added complication (which was minor I might add) that the old software limit imposed on us.

It bothers me that Jason (and/or Damon) is/are trying to say that these are new discoveries or secrets that only "real" tuners would know. I not only know them but learned them on my own some time ago. It goes back to the TBU days when Jason would not listen to what I had to say then and made up in his mind what I said or what I meant and based his accusations on what amounts to "made up" info.

I'm glad at least you figured out that it was a vacuum leak and not a leaking bypass valve actuator. The fact that it went rich should have been the instant clincher on that one. Most likely one of the welds broke on the return plenum. Should be an easy fix.

It's easy for the "experts" to come around and say all this stuff now but several years ago when people were having real problems with this stuff no one stepped up to help. No one said anything. Jason was around then, he just chose not to help out. So now after learning all this stuff on my own and with the help of members here, now suddenly Jason wants to claim that he really knew all this stuff all along, or something to that effect.

You can say that Jason's tuning session was not "secret" but I notice that (even after the fact) no one mentions Jason's name (let me guess he doesn't want any public credit for what he's doing) but the term "tuner" sure does come up a lot. :rolleyes:

PS. For Damon - I think I was the one who told you that nothing was fundamentally wrong with Miller's cam when you guys wanted to swap cams. Just wanted to point that out.

[seawalkersee]

Wow...Now we can all be friends again? CLO was never a friend of mine and after he made the gay website about me I REALLY wanted to meet him. All that being said, I never slammed him.

With that, I do not subscribe to threads anymore that have people calling names and or slamming eachother.

Now for the meat and potatoes. How much power is being left on the table with Millaz car? I mean, how big of a leak is in the car? Is it possible that the boost leak is causing the MAF to be able to have this combo work?

Chris

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Dave ,

No where did I say a MAF will never peg. I said a lightning MAF was far from pegging on Millers car. Far from saturating anything. I also never said there was something new that was discovered that made lightning MAFS work on our cars. Truth be told from my understanding you can get one to work just fine using an EEC tuner....Hey Dennis has one of those no?

After talking to Sprio and picking his head here and there I can understand why. If anything has been discovered....It was by him a long time ago.

WHy use a lightning MAF? Well it has a superior sensor, its far from being restrictive, and for under $100 bucks new..WHY NOT! Of course you may not agree its superior to lets say a C&L..But thats another argument best left to the professionals (not me).

The reason why the LMAF worked on Millers car is because he isnt flowing nearly enough air to render it useless period. I saw this first hand..No tricks. Nothing fancy or up Jasons sleeve.

Here is how it went. Load up the injector files..Load in a maf curve. Load the car on dyno with less then stock timing and read the AF(most dynos you cant do this). From there the man (Jason)adjusts things to straighten out the AF ratio. TWeaking the curve...adding fuel..Whatever he does.

All was well with Millers car before it developed an issue. The tail end of the AF curve was being adjusted

That 413rwhp run was made with less then stock timing 93 octane gas and of course no meth. WIth less then fancy heads or cam..Or anything

After being constantly told by you Dave that the LMAF wont work..Then may work up till a certain point.....I can say without a doubt it works EASILY with no issues. Probably on the most radical supercharged SC's even from what I'm told. It can handle far more then an SC can suck through it..Thats something I learned.

Dave..If you know how to use them I dont see why you dont. Then again after your little rant I dont know what is going through your head

Millers cam? I like it..He has no brakes...No Vacuum...We will redo everything and see if that mysteriously changes....But for now he hs a leak and that needs to be addressed.


As for bashing there was none of that going on by me so I have no idea what your talking about. My car got little attention..It was really all Millers.


Chris,

As far as potential....Millers car currently has less then an optimal power tune....Once timing is brought up to stock we can see where it goes...The magic number is 450. Without going past the factory limiter..And keep in mind that line was shooting straight up...So who really knows

AND as a disclaimer. No I dont reccomend everyone and there mother go out and get a LMAF..Because if you dont have or know of anytone that car tune your car with it...Yeah its worthless....Jason wont tune my car unless I have it...So you know..I have a 90m LMAF

[Miller]

oh mannnnn stopppppppp

Dave there was no crap tawkin of you at all. jason didnt even open his mouth all day he was inside my car in his own world. Ira can back this up. my car. The Dalke war ended a long time so lets not start this again.

and i still stand to the fact that my cars a giant pos.

[90blkbrd]

I'd sure love to see a video and the dyno sheet, not because of any of this bs, because I'd just like to see them out of curiosity. :)

[Ira R.]

oh mannnnn stopppppppp

Dave there was no crap tawkin of you at all. jason didnt even open his mouth all day he was inside my car in his own world. Ira can back this up. my car. The Dalke war ended a long time so lets not start this again.

and i still stand to the fact that my cars a giant pos.

What he said. Enough of this crap. Did Miller make 413rwhp? Yes. I was standing next to the drivers window when it happened. Did he back it up with another run? Don't know. I left after they spent too much time trying to close off the boost/vacuum leaks and I had to get back to work. If they got a decent run after that I would be surprised but I don't rule it out. Did the AR make 21 lbs of boost? Actually I thought it read 22 before it hit the rev limiter somewhere between 5200-5400. I can't remember exactly what the number was. I do know that there was much discussion about running the engine up to 6000rpm from the peanut gallery but I also know that more sensible minds prevailed.

I also will not get caught up in the middle of this either. Either as a witness or a comparison. Who the he$$ remembers who said what. Was there a discussion about the LMAF 90? Yes. Several actually. I know Damon and I discussed it because when he told me how his car ran one of the reasons may have been the MAF. I explained what my problems were, also explained that Chris Vining had one out of my car and after it was tuned by Dave he was running 11's with it, so it certainly wasn't just the MAF or the tune. Perhaps more of a potential problem with the combination each of us was using. Did Jason, errr, Mike Jones :p express an opinion? Not really as I recall, other then to suggest that it didn't make any sense that the MAF would peg with the flow numbers they were throwing around (which I don't even remember frankly). And from a strictly math point of view I had to agree with him, but as I pointed out, it didn't work on my car. Hey, what can I say. ymmv.

Was there some smack talk? Sure. FKR was there. POS was there. Damon was there. And I was there, arriving hours after everyone else so I'm sure I missed most of the b.s. But while I was there there was the usual amount of b.s. being thrown around. After all, you have a low 12 second car, a car that everyone thinks should make 400rwhp (and did), and me smiling whenever anyone asked what shape my car was in. Oh yea, and Damon and his pretty new wheels still trying to figure out how to make 300 rwhp. :D

Any other comments and opinions that come up happened either before I arrived or after I left. While I was there it was pretty civil, like I said except for the usual smack.

So in summary all I have to say is there is more talking and b.s. being thrown around here then there was at the dyno. Just let it die guys.

Ira

[Micahdogg]

Your AFR's have come down from last year where we were seeing you consistently tuning from IMO a dangerously high 12.5:1 to a conservative and safe 11.5-7.

What's so dangerous about 12.5?

[superdadsc]

I believe I read that the bottom end is stock with high miles. Are you concerned about the bottom end holding together or are we finding out that these motors can handle more than was previously expected. Do you feel a stock bottom end rebuild can handle 450 rwhp. I am mainly referring to the stock pistons as mine is a 95 which has the beefier rods. Trying to put my project together and am wondering if forged pistons are really needed. Especially after reading those numbers.:confused:

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Through Tuning and error the world of unnaturally aspirated cars have settled upon a AFR of 11.5. Because its safe and because going closer to that magic 14 number just isnt worth the chance of a thermonuclear meltdown.

Now Being Jason has no way to comment on what Dave wrote he asked me to do so for him.....So as to not Ban this post alltogether I will be posting Jasons rebuttal in the member sections Lounge area.:eek:

[David Neibert]

Now Being Jason has no way to comment on what Dave wrote he asked me to do so for him.....So as to not Ban this post alltogether I will be posting Jasons rebuttal in the member sections Lounge area.

Great...so now your CLO's puppet :rolleyes:

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

As much as you are Daves D's :eek:

[90MN12]

Wish I Had That Pot Of Gold, That Mythical Skull Called An Ar. Hey Maybe One Day. To Bad All Can't Get Along. Bottom Line As Long As We Are Making These Cars Run As Fast As We Can As A Group, Isn't All That Matters. Oh, And Of Coarse Sharing That Info As Well As Helping Each Other Out. I Have No Side And Wouldn't Pick One Either. Just Waiting For Dd To Come To Texas And Do A Bad A$$ Mother Freaking Tune For All That Go.

[XR7 Dave]

Dave ,

No where did I say a MAF will never peg.

Right here:

And a 90mm Lightnig maf DEFINITELY DOES NOT PEG..It really is in the tune...Or teh software chosen to tune with..

I don't see where you qualified that with anything. In your members only post you (aka Jason) said "there is no way an SC will EVER peg an LMAF".

That's 2 times.

Now I'm here to tell you that I have pegged the LMAF, and to avoid further problems of that nature I have used calibrated MAF's on other high HP cars that would have pegged the LMAF had I tried it (didn't waste my time or money trying). I have the factual data.

I said a lightning MAF was far from pegging on Millers car. Far from saturating anything. I also never said there was something new that was discovered that made lightning MAFS work on our cars. Truth be told from my understanding you can get one to work just fine using an EEC tuner....Hey Dennis has one of those no?
Come on now, can we PLEASE keep thing straight. You guys continue to take the discussion into left field in an attempt to confuse the facts. Dennis' car uses an LMAF, as do many others. But Dennis' car doesn't make the HP. On motor it only makes - whatever the DD dyno said but it's not 400rwhp. The 453rwhp that they believe the car makes was on spray. Nitrous provides it's own oxygen and places no extra demand on the MAF. You could run an 800hp nitrous hit through a stock MAF if the motor could ingest it all. The MAF is irrelevant. I don't need anyone to preach to me about the LMAF. I've used plenty of them. I'm aware that they can work. I never disagreed with you using one on your car. But I still don't recommend them for the general SC community.
After talking to Sprio and picking his head here and there I can understand why. If anything has been discovered....It was by him a long time ago. If he discovered it that's cool. Too bad he didn't share the info with anyone. I have his EEC Tuner software as well as his SC-Tuner software. Stuff's missing in both of them. If it's been added lately then most likely it's a result of other people's work. Our own Fraser sent Spiro new data to correct longstanding errors in Spiro's software. I can't talk the tech lingo on that much better than you can but I know what works and doesn't. I've used all the software, I'm pretty familiar with what's available and Spiro didn't have it when I bought my software from him.

WHy use a lightning MAF? Well it has a superior sensor, its far from being restrictive, and for under $100 bucks new..WHY NOT! Of course you may not agree its superior to lets say a C&L..But thats another argument best left to the professionals (not me).
There is much misinformation about meters floating around. Trying to battle all the misconceptions would be a fulltime job. You should refrain from the term "of course" in reference to what someone else "might say" because you are wrong as often as anyone else. The LMAF sensor is "superior" to the early model OE sensor. Why is this? From a user standpoint it has a bigger range and more evenly spaced datapoints along it's response curve, particularly on the top end. Funny how you used to say that the LMAF was better for tuning drivability when it's real strength lies in it's upper range resolution. The problem with the LMAF is mostly a matter of installation. Necking down the 4" outlet into a 3 or 3.5" intake tube can and does cause an air dam that creates backflow to the sensor. It simply was not designed to work on an SC. If you are careful how you install it that's fine, but apparently you are not familiar with people's "engineering" capabilities. People are much better off with bolt-in plug and play stuff. You yourself complained about the SCI jackshaft pulley not coming with instructions. If installing a pulley gives you fits, imagine how somebody with no mechanical knowledge would feel trying to install an Lmaf on an SC. Just a potential issue I was (am) trying to help people avoid.

The reason why the LMAF worked on Millers car is because he isnt flowing nearly enough air to render it useless period. I saw this first hand..No tricks. Nothing fancy or up Jasons sleeve. Well thats a relief to know. I was worried that Jason had some insight into the software that I did not which would allow a meter to be used beyond 5v. I was worried I was really behind the 8 ball here.

Here is how it went. Load up the injector files..Load in a maf curve. Load the car on dyno with less then stock timing and read the AF(most dynos you cant do this). From there the man (Jason)adjusts things to straighten out the AF ratio. TWeaking the curve...adding fuel..Whatever he does.

All was well with Millers car before it developed an issue. The tail end of the AF curve was being adjusted. Well, that's pretty much how it always goes. Most SC members here already know this having watched it being done to their cars (well except for the issues, that is reserved for only 50% of all SC owners).

That 413rwhp run was made with less then stock timing 93 octane gas and of course no meth. WIth less then fancy heads or cam..Or anything.

After being constantly told by you Dave that the LMAF wont work..Then may work up till a certain point.....I can say without a doubt it works EASILY with no issues. Probably on the most radical supercharged SC's even from what I'm told. It can handle far more then an SC can suck through it..Thats something I learned.

Well, you've learned some misinformation which is ok. There will come a day when you learn new information. Hopefully you'll be mature enough to admit that when the day comes.

[Roadhawg]

I'm using a 90mm LMAF with no problems..............

1995 Mustang 4.2; MPX Supercharger/25%OD, (343rwhp/420rwtq)

[MagpoweredSC]

If you dont want to listen to Dave then don't. I just get angry when people come on here and bash someone's intellect out of some sort of arrogant pride or jealousy. You guys tuning with CLO seem like you get your jollies off trying to disprove Dave D. Like if you can, you will feel like you won some kind of contest. I would love to know how to tune and know if I put my mind to it with help from others I could prob figure it out, but dont want to experiment now with the level my cars at, I'll leave it to the pros. I just dont have the funds for the laptop and software, cables etc... either.

Just stop the arrogance and innuendos its just not cool. Dave Dalke has done nothing but try and help everyone in anyway he can, even my dumb~~~. It's all a learning progress and I am thankful to those that have helped, not only me but the whole community.

Mark

[CMac89]

Through Tuning and error the world of unnaturally aspirated cars have settled upon a AFR of 11.5. Because its safe and because going closer to that magic 14 number just isnt worth the chance of a thermonuclear meltdown.

That's only true for pump gas, doggie dog. I tune my race motors to 13.2:1, which is on race fuel, and the EGT's are 1350*. That's where it makes max power. AAAAnNnnnDDddDD I know my race cars see more miles than your caarrrrsss dooooooooooo.:)

Roadhawg,

These guys are talkin about 400+rwhp cars using that MAF.

[Ira R.]

I believe I read that the bottom end is stock with high miles. Are you concerned about the bottom end holding together or are we finding out that these motors can handle more than was previously expected. Do you feel a stock bottom end rebuild can handle 450 rwhp. I am mainly referring to the stock pistons as mine is a 95 which has the beefier rods. Trying to put my project together and am wondering if forged pistons are really needed. Especially after reading those numbers.:confused:

It has been found that these motors do seem to be able to handle that kind of power, HOWEVER!! :p the devil as they say is in the details. Aside from first figuring our which combination of parts you will need to do this, outside forces such as octane, AF ratio, increased timing, will all have an effect on how well the block will hold up after you have built it. Just remember that there is safety in strenth. Just because the block may be capable of it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way to build it.

But if your goal is to make that kind of horsepower consistantly then I think you need to be having some conversations with some of the real brains here in order to get some idea of what combinations may or may not work and what your options are before you start building anything.

Ira

[Pablo94SC]

My take on setting the A/F ratio...

I was talking to Jason about my car blowing up when I first met him. We discussed the A/F ratio of my tune and other stuff. Since my A/F ratio was set by Brian H at approx 12.5-12.8:1, that's most likely where the number popped up from, NOT from a Dave Dalke tune. According to Jason and my own research the last couple of years into ethanol, ethanol blends tend to lean out the A/F ratio by about a point (11.5:1 becomes 12.5:1). STL gas is a 10% blend (where the car was tuned) and Memphis gas does not (where I lived at the time), so my tune was safe considering the gas I normally used. It also explains why my car had horrible times at the track in Memphis, but loved the STL and OH tracks. :rolleyes:

So long story short - be sure that wherever you get your car tuned, take into account the blend of gas you're using. If you live in a place with no ethanol blends, and you move to/race in a place with ethanol blends, you may start having detonation and other problems.

[XR7 Dave]

Dave ,

After being constantly told by you Dave that the LMAF wont work..Then may work up till a certain point....

This stuff is what buggs me. I never said it won't work.

From a post I made in 2004:

Both the 85mm TB and 90MM MAF require a 3.5" connecting tube, so I would have to say that "no, the MAC CAI will not work." The lightning MAF should be used with a cone filter attached directly to it. (actually I was wrong at the time, the 90 requires a 4" tube or adapter)

From 2005 in a post where someone was asking which MAF to use:

Either MAF will work fine. The Lightning MAF requires a chip (which you should have anyhow).

From another post I made in 2005:

The L 90MM unit is good for about 400rwhp without pegging, so it is a good alternative for some people. The SCT MAF is a better version of the stock L 90MM. It has an extended transfer function that won't peg and since it is made by the same company that made the stock meter so quality and consistency is OE grade. However, your SC won't run with one unless you have a chip, so that poses a problem for some people. For example, you can't even drive the car temporarily while waiting for a dyno tune with this meter. A lot of people like the idea of driving the car (taking it easy) with a calibrated MAF until tuning can be performed as well as the "bolt in" aspect. I know I prefer this in most cases.

Damon, I also told you this directly in 2005 in response to one of your questions:

Being that you have the SCT tuning software you should be able to use whatever MAF you want. Mark also has the SCT software which is necessary to use the SCT meter.

And this from 2006:

The 90MM Lightning MAF will work but it will require a chip to even run and then it requires a rewired connector and filter adapter. Not worth the trouble IMO. The C&L 80MM will work just fine (flows more air anyhow) and will fit better. Also the Pro M 87MM if you can get one, just make sure it is calibrated for the injectors that you are running.

And later to someone else:

I would not bother with a lightning MAF.

And:

Because the electronics are completely different. It can be made to work but it requires a custom chip and very often a dyno tune to get it to work.

And in 2007 I posted this regarding the use of the 90MM MAF. This statement is based off of conversations with many tuners over the past few years.

.... it has been proven that EEC-IV cars respond better to a calibrated MAF than any of the larger OE MAF's from EEC-V (OBD-II) cars.

And then again in 2008 I said this:

Any MAF can work as good as another from an electrical/mechanical standpoint. In fact you can use a tin can and stuff some sort of a sampling orifice into it and if you can plot a transfer curve, you can use it.

After which I took an entire page trying to explain why I prefer a calibrated MAF and why an LMAF can work if you want it to. Clearly there is a problem with people reading what they want to see and recalling what is convenient for them based on their current mood.

I have just wasted 2 hours of valuable time during which I should have been working on Mark's cylinder heads trying to defend myself against statements that are at worst simply lies and untruth and at best poor memories and/or careless reading of my posts.

It is very frustrating to put so much time into trying to help people over the space of literally years, trying to be consistent while presenting as much accuracy is humanly possible only to have someone in a matter minutes take what you have said and change it, twisting it around to suit their current mood.

In the case of the 90MM LMAF, I have given a lot of thought to it use and function and have done a lot of research and testing as well. Doesn't make me an expert but it reflects the fact that I haven't posting pure BS for 4 years. I have used the LMAF many times. I have never said it won't work. I have used it on M90 cars, I used it on Ricardo's M112, I've used it AR's, I've used it a lot. However, in no case do I feel that it has been of any benefit and in more than one case people had issues from it's physical installation. I have a feeling that is what was wrong with Ira's application. He bought a "cold air kit" that didn't fit, used adapters that didn't fit well, and in the end I think he was getting a lot of backflow through the MAF. This is a real problem even if you remove all software limitations. I am well aware of these things and have seen the things people have tried to do to make the LMAF fit. It can be bad and in most cases it's just not worth the hassle. I've said it before on these forums (and to you in person) that Ira's car was the only one that I had peg on me. I wish we could go back and re-iterate what the deal was but that is wayyyy in the past now. Either way, looking at my datalogs from some of the current AR cars I can assure you that even with all the correct connections and installation the LMAF would be saturated because they are recording over the 62lb/min LMAF ceiling.

Many people just want me to let this go and I would like to bury it as well but I'm not the one who brought this up and I'm not the one who has been preaching about LMAF's pegging at less than 400rwhp. But I am clearly the target of this LMAF debate as I am the only other person on here who has anything to say about MAF meters and what to use or not to use. I would just ask that people be accurate when they say things to discredit or cast doubt on things that I said (or did not say as the case may be). It would save us all a lot of time and energy.

[Roadhawg]

Roadhawg,

These guys are talkin about 400+rwhp cars using that MAF.

Actually my car has more power to be found, it is a very safe tune and not running on the outter fringes. It was more to point out that maybe the 90mm LMAF works better in an EEC-V OB2 setup vice an ECC-IV. Dave D, is a great guy and is a wealth of knowledge. He also knows I am using an EEC-V OBD2 setup and we have discused the advantages of the EEC-V.

[KwikGSeX]

MAF's are for suckers.. Speed Density is where its at!!

[CMac89]

MAF's are for suckers.. Speed Density is where its at!!

The defense rests. Speed density FTW!!!

[Micahdogg]

Through Tuning and error the world of unnaturally aspirated cars have settled upon a AFR of 11.5. Because its safe and because going closer to that magic 14 number just isnt worth the chance of a thermonuclear meltdown.

Now Being Jason has no way to comment on what Dave wrote he asked me to do so for him.....So as to not Ban this post alltogether I will be posting Jasons rebuttal in the member sections Lounge area.:eek:

Uh oh, for over 2 years now I've been 12.7. Now I feel horrible. How much time would you say I have before I reach thermonuclear meltdown. I might pop the hood when I get home and see if it already blowed up and maybe i just didn't know it?

[tbirdsc357]

Dave Dalke has done nothing but try and help everyone in anyway he can, even my dumb~~~.
Mark

+1

And no matter what CLO can show on a dyno, I'll only let Dave D touch my car.

[fturner]

For a strict race application, then yes, SD setups are good but I'd be turning off 99% of the functions in the EEC as well.

For a street driven car and a blown application.... speed density is NOT where its at, unless you have access to engine dyno's or car dyno's for hours etc to dial in the density table. Last time I checked, either that is very costly to do and just not possible for 99.9% of the population here. Afterwards, you make a small change, and your right back at it building that table up. With a MAF setup, keep the same MAF, you can change a whole crap load of things on the car and you wouldn't need to touch the MAF function if it was dialed in right the first time. Each have their time and place with advantages and disadvantages, and SD is NOT for 99.9% of the folks here cause it ain't as simple as you think it is... and your statement has already proved to me just how much you know.

As for the LMAF... guess what, even the Mustang guys are having a helluva time with it once they start poking over 400rwhp. For all intents and purposes, I could put a 20 foot culvert on my car that could flow enough air to support an engine from an ocean liner, but it would only allow me to make 220rwhp before its pegged. Its all dependent on how the "orifice" used to measure the air and how the electronics are set up determines what the meter's range is. At this time that is the problem with the LMAF. Sure its size says it can support huge numbers, but its orifice design and electronics are limiting it. Dave also made a very valid point about keeping the size of everything matched up, or at least flowing smoothly. Putting a 3" tube right after a 90mm MAF of any type is well.......

People have to start looking at the whole picture instead of a short piece of pipe 4 inches long...

The folks that tune have each their own style they are comfortable with. Heck I'm developing my own as I tune my car that I would use tuning someone elses car, and in some ways that would differ from Dave's, or Jason's whom I have never met. Is any any better than another's... unless your blowing up motors all the time I would say no.

Because I'm working through the actual program code that is in the EEC, I am coming across new settings everyday for tuning. Some are more critical than others, and heck, some will never be touched. With this information, I have disproven several old theories about the SC EEC's. Some of this information has allowed tuning to be easier like Dave has mentioned because it takes an old style of thinking and takes that "scaling" factor out of it.

The tuning forums I go through basically has a rule of thumb now that if a tuner has to scale everything down to make things work with a car below 500 rwhp doesn't know how to tune. No insult intended to the tuners out there as I know the SC's where not exactly a popular car to decipher so they had to work with what they had. I'm aiming to remedy that problem. Besides, scaling introduces problems of its own, especially since there is so little known in our cars.

Did you know that the EEC IV in our cars are capable of supporting a 1500rwhp monster ;).

Frit

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Dave,

I'm not going to waste my time going through posts were you said the LMAF wont support a certain amount of RWHP. You know you have said it many times based on electronics alone. Enough already.

And you shouldnt bring Frit into the argument. Hes doing what he does best and will probably have disagreements with all of us. No need to drag his name in here. Unless he wants to respond,,Which he did

As for Spiro he is constantly developing his software from my understanding which includes fixing errors. Who knows which version of what you are alluding to. Regardless I cant comment on any of that. I'm not a programmer or a tuner However SCT software has errors as well as most other software out there from my understanding.

Also you pick and pull peices of posts. Of course any MAF will eventually peg however the amount of airflow needed to peg a LMAF is astounding and much more then an SC needs at any HP level we have experienced to date from the data I have heard. What I had said and was reffering to is that on an SC the LMAF wont. And if you have saturated a LMAF on an SC then surely something is not translating properly. Ive been told that by more people then just Jason and Spiro. But whatever man. If you cant use one you cant use one. If you choose not to you choose not to.Airflow is airflow regardless of it being a 4 6 or 8 cyl. So there just has to be something that isnt allowing you to use a LMAF in certain situations. Be it the way you tune or the software you use

There are many ways to skin a cat and some are better then others. I had a very short lesson on tuning and my head was spinning. You can tune 50 different ways and get the same end result. But 25 of the ways may limit you one way and 25 another way. I completely decieded as much as it sucks to rely on someone else to tune my car....I'm going to have to for now. I have no time to learn

So because you decieded to jump on my back and claim that I must have been badmouthing you it once again comes to this. You should know better then anyone I have no issues telling you how I feel when I feel it. I'm over it. It is what it is.

And there really isnt much more to discuss on this LMAF thing. I see it as a great cheap performance mod for an SC when used and installed properly. Is it for everyone. No. Because it will never work without a tune and the overall dimensions as you have alluded to are really to large for a 3 inch or smaller intake. But if you are getting a tune, have a large enough TB and intake and your tuner is confident he can get the LMAF to work...Its a great deal..Thats why I went with it.

Now for another discusion is the new blade type sensors. I know a few guys using them for blowthrough applications on sn95 supercharged v6's with great results. The guy I got my LMAF did just that. I'm interested in seeing some work done with those.>>>>Maybe put an EEC back in my turbo car and dump my DFI..Wouldnt that be a gas

[fturner]

I don't mind my name being used when its the truth.... besides it helps to build my ego up :D.

If I have a problem wit it, I'd let ya'll know.

Frit

[CMac89]

Frit, holy balls. I was kidding. Your understanding of how much I know shows me that you don't understand what you yourself knows.

Well, maybe you do. The ONLY thing I don't know much about, with automobiles, is tuning fuel injection. It's childish to express pejorative austerities instead of fervently leaving your post at an unperturbed educational response. Instead it was left at nothing short of dejection.

[fturner]

Frit, holy balls. I was kidding. Your understanding of how much I know shows me that you don't understand what you yourself knows.

Well, maybe you do. The ONLY thing I don't know much about, with automobiles, is tuning fuel injection. It's childish to express pejorative austerities instead of fervently leaving your post at an unperturbed educational response. Instead it was left at nothing short of dejection.

Sorry man, didn't mean to cause an insult on the intellect leveling you are proposing on ;), which is beyond me :eek:.

For a strict racing application, and having the resources... SD is the way to go cause if its right, everything else is simpler to tune. Truthfully, in theory SD is actually suppose to be easier to tune, but in reality, it hasn't worked out that way from what I've read.

Heck you know way more about racing these cars than I do on how the computer works.... btw we need to chat sometime as I need to figure out the best way to launch my POS out of the whole on its Fred Flinstone tires LOL!

Frit

[CMac89]

Sorry man, didn't mean to cause an insult on the intellect leveling you are proposing on ;), which is beyond me :eek:.

For a strict racing application, and having the resources... SD is the way to go cause if its right, everything else is simpler to tune. Truthfully, in theory SD is actually suppose to be easier to tune, but in reality, it hasn't worked out that way from what I've read.

Heck you know way more about racing these cars than I do on how the computer works.... btw we need to chat sometime as I need to figure out the best way to launch my POS out of the whole on its Fred Flinstone tires LOL!

Frit

It's okay. Maybe I was being a bit sensitive, so I apologize as well. I have a few ls1 buddies that are speed density tuned, so I figured it could have been possible. One of those fuel injected Super Victor intakes with the four barrel throttle bodies. Those are OBDII cars, though.

We can talk, definitely. Just get a hold of me sometime. Fred Flinstone's car was really fast on the show though. Maybe you need some stone tires?

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Its all about feet per second in a Fred Flinstone mobile...Not the stone tires

[XR7 Dave]

Dave,

I'm not going to waste my time going through posts were you said the LMAF wont support a certain amount of RWHP. You know you have said it many times based on electronics alone. Enough already. No, its not enough. I did a search on SCCOA for "MAF and my screen name. I did not filter the results. If you don't want to do it then anyone else who is curious and has the time can do it. The result will be the same. Please, prove I said otherwise, even once. It's all here.

As for Spiro he is constantly developing his software from my understanding which includes fixing errors. Who knows which version of what you are alluding to. I know that he is continually working on it which is why Frit sent him some data he was missing. You said that "if there is anything to be discovered Spiro found it long ago." Tis not true. He is learning every day, just like the rest of us. The version of his software that I have is about a year old. That puts a pretty definite timeline on how "long ago" certain things were added/discovered, whatever.

Of course any MAF will eventually peg however the amount of airflow needed to peg a LMAF is astounding and much more then an SC needs at any HP level we have experienced to date from the data I have heard.

That's partly because you don't listen and partly because the data hasn't been completely posted out in the open for everyone to see partly because up to now there was no interest in it. I did post in the thread above that I have datalogs proving that some SC's have exceeded the airflow limit of the LMAF. Apparently you either missed that or you simply disregard what I say as false.

So because you decieded to jump on my back and claim that I must have been badmouthing you it once again comes to this.

It comes to what? I didn't "claim you must be badmouthing me." From what some other people have posted it is clear that you are not the only one who thinks "I think this". My posts have nothing to do with whatever you might or might not say outside my presence. Frankly I don't care what you tell people in person or don't, as the case may be. What I don't like is when you and Jason make a point of mocking me in print. You both do it and then claim the victim when I take the bait. I should be smarter than to respond but then again why do you bother to start stuff? Someone surely should be the "smarter" one.

And there really isnt much more to discuss on this LMAF thing. I see it as a great cheap performance mod for an SC when used and installed properly. Is it for everyone. No. Because it will never work without a tune and the overall dimensions as you have alluded to are really to large for a 3 inch or smaller intake. But if you are getting a tune, have a large enough TB and intake and your tuner is confident he can get the LMAF to work...Its a great deal..Thats why I went with it.

Well now that Frit has made the appropriate parameters available to where we can use a high range MAF without scaling I guess the entire point really is mute. If people want to run the LMAF that's fine. There are very few people who will ever peg the meters and the rest will just be - well - a little slower than some. ;)

Now for another discusion is the new blade type sensors. I know a few guys using them for blowthrough applications on sn95 supercharged v6's with great results. The guy I got my LMAF did just that. I'm interested in seeing some work done with those.>>>>Maybe put an EEC back in my turbo car and dump my DFI..Wouldnt that be a gas

I think you should put your turbo back in your turbo car - and the wheels, and the brakes, and the interior, and everything else that is laying around your yard before the whole thing sinks into the New York harbor. :eek: J/K of course.

[CMac89]

Now for another discusion is the new blade type sensors. I know a few guys using them for blowthrough applications on sn95 supercharged v6's with great results. The guy I got my LMAF did just that. I'm interested in seeing some work done with those.>>>>Maybe put an EEC back in my turbo car and dump my DFI..Wouldnt that be a gas

http://www.lethalperformance.com/cached_images/JLT-110_MED.jpg

Ya talkin about this one? That's a JLT 110mm MAF with some special sensor on it for $300.

[Micahdogg]

On a side note, I think my car blowed up. Last night I tried to start it, but the starter went "click click." Then it had no power for the headlights or anything. Must have blowed up real good because it seems to have taken the battery out. Now I wish I followed the settled upon AFR of 11.5, because obviously nothing survives past that point.

[Toms-SC]

~~~~ news Micah,

I'll take your A/R :)