Got more power, still need more fuel

Mike8675309

Registered User
If you haven't heard yet or got the hint from the signature below, I took a trip to a local Dynojet Dyno to dial in the upper reaches of my maf curve, see if Methanol could give me some rpm since I have fueling issues, and see how much power this baby can crank out.

#1 was achieved.
#2 I learned a bit.
#3 turned out it's enough, at least for now.

Max HP is 441.40 5450rpm :)
Max Torque is 462.89 @ 4500rpm
toocool.gif


The run started at 2150rpm
Torque was over 400ft/lbs from 2600rpm and onward.
Hp hit 400+rwhp at 4550rpm and onward.

This run was on E85 + Methanol. Outside temp was 88.9f, with pressure at 29.39inmg

AFR was about 11.2 or lambda .76. They dyno operator had done many E85 cars and his experience was that it could run leaner. Something for me to investigate further once the fueling is worked out.

Timing was progressive using the Spark - WOT Advance vs RPM.
2500rpm - 14 degrees (stock is 17)
3200rpm - 18 degrees (stock is about 20)
4000rpm - 24 degrees (stock is 24)
5000rpm - 26 degrees (stock is 26)

As you can see, I did not change timing much from stock. I just didn't see the point until I have fueling figured out, wasting time on a dyno. (Prior to e85, timing was 8,12,15,18,20 for running on 91octane)

Methanol was set to come on about 4580 which is about where the fuel rail started loosing pressure. Full meth was set to come on below 5v.
By 4820rpm the methanol was starting to loose the battle to progressively worse fuel pressure.
I may have a regulator issue on top of everything else.
Max fuel pressure is achieved (55.02psi) at 3.5 psi of boost(2750rpm). :(
At 4800 rpm, fuel pressure has dropped to 39.6 (uh huh...) :eek:
When we let off at 5488 boost is at 18.997 (call it 19) and fuel pressure had squeaked back up to 40.18. (injector duty cycle is 103)
Air Fuel ratio was still safe there, but heading north fast.

In 2008 this same motor, minus the blower and intercooler, and with an SCT tune maxed out at 275rwhp and 343lb/ft on meth. Then the motor had a stock 89 M90 blower (over 100,000 miles on it) and a stock intercooler (no fan).

Here is the chart. Note that this run was the last run (#9) and was after a 30 minute cool down (the dyno guy had to drop someone off). Prior to that cool down the last run was at 430rwhp and 442 torque. The difference being the cool down, and increasing timing at 3200 by 1 degree, 4000 by 3 degrees, 5000 by 2 degrees. On this run, coolant temps started at 180 and ended at 184. Air fuel temps started at 100 and ended at 112 (no ice used).


So lots of typing... I tend to over analyze things quite a bit. I really need to get the garage updated with all my information for this car. I built the motor in my basement with significant assistance from many people on the forum here and Dave Dalke (xr7 Dave). This motor was built from the beginning for an Autorotor. Thus the 160% power improvement in swapping the blower and intercooler. Dave Dalke has be instrumental in choosing the lower end components, specifying a cam, building the heads, building the blower kit, and he has been doing all tuning on this car and assisted me in getting started with the Moates Quaterhorse. Fraser (Fturner) recently helped me with some remote tuning on the car and information after upgrading to 80lb/hr injectors and more info on the Quarterhorse.

Unfortunately I won’t get to back up these numbers on the track too soon, as my trac-lock still needs to be replaced. unless I win one at the Car Craft Summer Nationals this year, I won’t have a replacement until next season. So I’ll be at the track at least twice this year but expect to have terrible 60ft times, and be stuck in the 13’s.

This winter I’ll take care of the fueling issues with a completely new fuel system (new lines, adjustable regulator, and some sort of fix, either dual fuel pumps or boost a pump).

Oh.. and btw... I’ll be building some headers this winter, as I’m still running stock t-bird exhaust manifolds.
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Congratulations! That is an amazing feat for stock exhaust manifolds.

I can't wait to see what your car can do with a better fuel system.
 
Mike

Those are excellent results, congrats !! In addition to the fuel system upgrades you mentioned, an 85mm TB would be a good investment.

David
 
Wow, Mike, those are great results. I'm sure you understand, but the injectors are high on duty cycle from a lack of fuel volume. You have a decent amount of power on the table with getting the fuel system up to par and running more timing. Headers, too.
 
yep, lots of side effects of not enough fuel pressure available. The nice thing about the 80's is that they can open up that pw to get me into usable rpm until I can fix the fuel system. The 60's would have never made it.

Driving on the street is just like it ever was. I've been struggling some with idle (unrelated to the e85) which has been hashed out in the tuning forum. Boost right now is RPM limited. I'll keep myself at a limit of 5000rpm until I have fuel figured out, which has boost at 18.8PSIg. At 4000RPM boost was 17.6psig. So if the change is linear, at 6000 rpm I'd be right around 20psig.

I have a back up tune for 91 octane should I end up in an area without E85. Just about every city in Minnesota has E85. Going to Iowa gets tough to find. If I go to a track and can't get E85, I'll run race gas which I'll have to adjust the tune for at the track. But that's the point of having a quarterhorse and wide band.

And yes, an 85mm would be good. Unfortunately, the budget Nazi is not allowing any more parts purchases for the car. I had to do the dyno trip on the down low, and just ask for forgiveness. Got the header kit purchase coming up and i wanted to get an idea of where my power is at so I could decide what I need.
 
Here you go Mike,

93 5speed
2.0L AR
valves 1.84 I & 1.57 X
218 I / 224 X .555 -114
9:1 Forged
75mm t/b
80# squirters
80mm C&L MAF
Snow Meth
Liquid/Air Inter-cooler
 
With that kind of power why would you think you are going to run in the 13s:confused: I would love to have your numbers but I always seem to have a gremlin or two on the dyno, messing things up. Great numbers, Im sure your feeling that everything you have done is starting to pay out.

Ken
 
With that kind of power why would you think you are going to run in the 13s:confused:

My rear diff needs new clutch packs. (i am going to get a new diff, auburn pro)
Thus I can't get the power to the ground. Last fall at the club clash I was running 13.5's @ 113mph. 60fts were 2.3-2.4 with wheel spin through 1st, and into 2nd.

Once I get the diff fixed, and some new drag tires, I shouldn't be in 13's anymore.

My car remains a cluster of compromises driven mostly by budget. Thus fuel issues, and bad diff still hang around. I had high expectations for my current fuel system up until the past 12 months and seeing the results that others have been having.
 
Congrats on the great numbers, looks like its going to be the year for big numbers.

What fuel system upgrades did you do this year besides the 80lb. injectors?
 
Congrats Mike! I had no idea I was touching such a beastly engine this past Sunday. :D I'm glad to see you put my methanol to good use! Looking forward to seeing the 'final' numbers once the outstanding issues are fixed. Either way, you should be uber happy with where it is right now.
 
My rear diff needs new clutch packs. (i am going to get a new diff, auburn pro)
Thus I can't get the power to the ground. Last fall at the club clash I was running 13.5's @ 113mph. 60fts were 2.3-2.4 with wheel spin through 1st, and into 2nd.

Once I get the diff fixed, and some new drag tires, I shouldn't be in 13's anymore.

My car remains a cluster of compromises driven mostly by budget. Thus fuel issues, and bad diff still hang around. I had high expectations for my current fuel system up until the past 12 months and seeing the results that others have been having.

Well you should be happy with you combination of compromises. I have tried to have a well balanced package of well thought out combinations of performace modifacations and am still behind everyone. I cant even get into the 400 club:( The nice thing for you is you get to know you have only one way to go and that is up in power;)

Ken
 
My rear diff needs new clutch packs. (i am going to get a new diff, auburn pro)
Thus I can't get the power to the ground. Last fall at the club clash I was running 13.5's @ 113mph. 60fts were 2.3-2.4 with wheel spin through 1st, and into 2nd.

Once I get the diff fixed, and some new drag tires, I shouldn't be in 13's anymore.

My car remains a cluster of compromises driven mostly by budget. Thus fuel issues, and bad diff still hang around. I had high expectations for my current fuel system up until the past 12 months and seeing the results that others have been having.

Good Job Mike. Great Job working thru it. Ive been unable to do anything about fuel myself. I can only imagine whats going on with your car trying to run Ethanol on the 255 pump.
I guess ill keep an eye on what you do for more fuel. I jump on board when you do.
 
Fuel system consists of:
Modified rail (not for performance, just to fit the blower)
Stock Regulator
Stock Fuel Lines
Walbro 255lph High Pressure in tank pump
Direct Battery power for fuel pump. (did this last weekend and only gained 2 psi across the board)

For sure the fuel pump is not able to keep up, as indicated by the extra 2psi gained with the improved power to the pump.

Secondly, I suspect a regulator issue, as I'm just not seeing the fuel pressure I would expect on a 1:1 boost/pressure scale that should be happening. (I data log fuel pressure)

After this winter, I'll maybe have new rails, will have a new adjustable regulator, new fuel lines, and some sort of new fuel pump setup. Either dual pumps in the tank, or an external boost pump like Vortech supplies with their blowers.

A note. At the start of the run, the EEC-IV will report seeing battery voltage of 13.3v. At 5000RPM, EEC-IV reported battery voltage is down to 12.5v. That in and of itself will have an impact on fuel pump performance as these pumps are such that they flow higher at higher voltage, less at lower voltage with most having flow rates specified at 13.5v.

Ken, what kind of issues do you have remaining. I recall an issue with MAF acting up. Is that it? If you are just dealing with little things, and you have the QH installed with a wide band. I'm more than willing to come down for a weekend and help you track down and solve some of this. Heck, if you just need an extra hand, I'll come down and help you out.
 
I wonder how effective the external boost pump would be? It seems to be the easiest method to supply extra fuel vs. a dual pump setup if it will work properly, as it seems to work for many other vehicle platforms. That would also be an opportune time to upgrade to AN feed and return lines, along with a remote regulator.
 
On my car albeit I have 60#s I have the fuel pressure jacked up to 51 or so But I dont see it being linear either on my car.
An external pump might be the solution but I dont have funds to allow me to experiment. So I need a proven solution. If I can get away without using 80lbs then all the better.


Also Mike do you feel you are running very aggressive tuning down low......I been advised not to run so much spark on a modified vehicle. I know it shows great power numbers but stock spark tables are pretty dangerous for a modified car. So Ive been told.
 
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I wonder how effective the external boost pump would be? It seems to be the easiest method to supply extra fuel vs. a dual pump setup if it will work properly, as it seems to work for many other vehicle platforms. That would also be an opportune time to upgrade to AN feed and return lines, along with a remote regulator.

Yes..at our power levels, adding the external booster pump would work. It won't flow anymore than the 255 high pressure pump, but it will help to maintain flow/pressure at high rpms/boost. Adding a voltage booster will also work, and it's even easier to install. Main problem with the external booster pump is more noise and heat.

I'd like a larger pump in the tank or dual pumps in the tank, but I'm still saving the external pump option as a last resort.

David
 
Nice job Mike. Are those numbers from a non-locking AOD? :eek:

It looks like this fuel pump thing is reaching critical status on numerous member cars.
 
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