Someone's going to go fast next year.....

I thought I did post about the bottom, but maybe I just posted a picture. The rods are Scat 6.200 H-beams, pistons are custom Wiseco, rings are Total Seal SS gapless race rings. Pistons are ceramic coated on top, moly graphite on the skirts. The stud girdle is a Morana piece that didn't work out as well as I'd hoped. After a lot of milling, fitment issues, and clearance problems we finally got it to fit but then it tugged and pulled on the caps so badly we had to line hone the block to match. I finally got that all sorted out and it is now assembled with a windage tray.

Since we are waiting on the timing chain I've been unable to complete the last steps of the shortblock. Cam selection reflects a bit of a compromise between all out HP and street manners. Since this car is going to be driven on the street 98% of the time, we didn't want to kill sub 2000rpm response so we settled on a 236/244 grind @ .625" lift.

Clearances are a little on the loose side across the board, but we wanted to make sure that it lives through the occasions that it does see high rpm and high load so it all fits with our end goal for this motor.

Thats impressive cam specs. I remember when .570 lift was big. I was thinking that like the performance in the last couple of years, what was big a few years ago is now very tame. Makes me wonder how tame my cam will be considered in another year. I am impressed at how we continue to learn to push performance levels in these cars. I see more 500 rwhp cars in the future.

Ken
 
Thats impressive cam specs. I remember when .570 lift was big. I was thinking that like the performance in the last couple of years, what was big a few years ago is now very tame. Makes me wonder how tame my cam will be considered in another year. I am impressed at how we continue to learn to push performance levels in these cars. I see more 500 rwhp cars in the future.

Ken

I think you may be taking this out of context a little. This cam is not radical and represents nothing new in engine building that wasn't out there 2-4-8-10 years ago. What is different perhaps is the fact that we are no longer rpm limited by our blowers being too small and so as a result we are able to look at other things that limit rpm. In the case of most SC owners, your hydraulic roller cam setups are limited by the fact that your motors were built when you were rpm limited by your blowers. As we started to move past the blower limitation then the next limitation became valvetrain stability and valve bounce/float. Even with good blowers, a hydraulic roller system is still heavy and it is limited by the amount of spring pressure you can put on the lifters before they start to bleed down at high rpm.

What this all boils down to is that in order to run an aggressive cam profile (not a new technology by any means) you have to be able to maintain control and stability in the valvetrain. In the case of this build, since we won't have blower rpm issues to deal with we are building the valvetrain for higher rpm capability and as a result duration has to be increased. Valve lift is of secondary importance. In fact any lift over about .570 is wasted on these heads because they just don't flow above that value but the key is not peak lift but rather area under the curve. This cam profile generates a lot of area under the curve while not killing idle vacuum or drivability and the .625 lift is just a result of that quick action. This type of profile is not possible in a hydraulic roller cam due to the very quick ramp rates. In this case we have applied a systems approach using different parts but yet commonly available technology with a somewhat fresh set of ideas.

People will not be able to just pop one of these cams into their SC over the weekend. This cam profile requires a systems approach including some custom hardware and careful planning. Stay tuned for more info as we move along. The cam is installed at this point, but the cool stuff that makes it work is still to come. ;)
 
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I think you may be taking this out of context a little. This cam is not radical and represents nothing new in engine building that wasn't out there 2-4-8-10 years ago. What is different perhaps is the fact that we are no longer rpm limited by our blowers being too small and so as a result we are able to look at other things that limit rpm. In the case of most SC owners, your hydraulic roller cam setups are limited by the fact that your motors were built when you were rpm limited by your blowers. As we started to move past the blower limitation then the next limitation became valvetrain stability and valve bounce/float. Even with good blowers, a hydraulic roller system is still heavy and it is limited by the amount of spring pressure you can put on the lifters before they start to bleed down at high rpm.

What this all boils down to is that in order to run an aggressive cam profile (not a new technology by any means) you have to be able to maintain control and stability in the valvetrain. In the case of this build, since we won't have blower rpm issues to deal with we are building the valvetrain for higher rpm capability and as a result duration has to be increased. Valve lift is of secondary importance. In fact any lift over about .570 is wasted on these heads because they just don't flow above that value but the key is not peak lift but rather area under the curve. This cam profile generates a lot of area under the curve while not killing idle vacuum or drivability and the .625 lift is just a result of that quick action. This type of profile is not possible in a hydraulic roller cam due to the very quick ramp rates. In this case we have applied a systems approach using different parts but yet commonly available technology with a somewhat fresh set of ideas.

People will not be able to just pop one of these cams into their SC over the weekend. This cam profile requires a systems approach including some custom hardware and careful planning. Stay tuned for more info as we move along. The cam is installed at this point, but the cool stuff that makes it work is still to come. ;)

Interesting considering the conversations we had when choosing my cam. I am very interested to see how it behaves on the street.

Ira
 
I think you may be taking this out of context a little. This cam is not radical and represents nothing new in engine building that wasn't out there 2-4-8-10 years ago. What is different perhaps is the fact that we are no longer rpm limited by our blowers being too small and so as a result we are able to look at other things that limit rpm. In the case of most SC owners, your hydraulic roller cam setups are limited by the fact that your motors were built when you were rpm limited by your blowers. As we started to move past the blower limitation then the next limitation became valvetrain stability and valve bounce/float. Even with good blowers, a hydraulic roller system is still heavy and it is limited by the amount of spring pressure you can put on the lifters before they start to bleed down at high rpm.

What this all boils down to is that in order to run an aggressive cam profile (not a new technology by any means) you have to be able to maintain control and stability in the valvetrain. In the case of this build, since we won't have blower rpm issues to deal with we are building the valvetrain for higher rpm capability and as a result duration has to be increased. Valve lift is of secondary importance. In fact any lift over about .570 is wasted on these heads because they just don't flow above that value but the key is not peak lift but rather area under the curve. This cam profile generates a lot of area under the curve while not killing idle vacuum or drivability and the .625 lift is just a result of that quick action. This type of profile is not possible in a hydraulic roller cam due to the very quick ramp rates. In this case we have applied a systems approach using different parts but yet commonly available technology with a somewhat fresh set of ideas.

People will not be able to just pop one of these cams into their SC over the weekend. This cam profile requires a systems approach including some custom hardware and careful planning. Stay tuned for more info as we move along. The cam is installed at this point, but the cool stuff that makes it work is still to come. ;)

So in a nut shell. Twin screws superchargers and Yella Terra rockers (and other possible goodies) have allowed us to actually use a solid lifter cam to it's fullest extent and actually make real power.

In Ira's case, we hadn't stumbled upon the rockers yet.
 
So in a nut shell. Twin screws superchargers and Yella Terra rockers (and other possible goodies) have allowed us to actually use a solid lifter cam to it's fullest extent and actually make real power.

In Ira's case, we hadn't stumbled upon the rockers yet.

No, I wouldn't say that at all. Nothing is just as simple as one missing part, and new rocker arms most definitely aren't the determining factor. 7/16" rocker studs and guide plates are the standard when it comes to solid roller cams and they have been around forever. Coy Miller was one of the first to use these back in 1997 but I am sure there were others even before that.

There are many contributing factors to what ends up being the final build product for any particular engine package. I would like to know what Ira meant by his statement, not what someone else (or I) think he might have meant.
 
Finally, a BIG CAM!!!! I did a .599"/.610" lift cam some 8 YEARS AGO
in an NOS 'huffed F-150 4.2 and AFAIK it is still running today!
Big lift roller cams have always been my goal, and BH springs
make it happen. All anyone needs is the proper IH and spring package.
No big deal whatsoever in any application. Just interpolated data
from known combinations to new setups! SQUEEZE THOSE SPRINGS
flat in a vise and add back in the mfg.'s safe clearance spec and
make sure your seat pressure is good! Lots easier in NA setups, but
y'all know how to compensate for boost I am sure...
Nice Work DD!
Keep it UP!

RGR
 
In the case of this build, since we won't have blower rpm issues to deal with we are building the valvetrain for higher rpm capability and as a result duration has to be increased. Valve lift is of secondary importance. In fact any lift over about .570 is wasted on these heads because they just don't flow above that value but the key is not peak lift but rather area under the curve. This cam profile generates a lot of area under the curve while not killing idle vacuum or drivability and the .625 lift is just a result of that quick action. This type of profile is not possible in a hydraulic roller cam due to the very quick ramp rates. In this case we have applied a systems approach using different parts but yet commonly available technology with a somewhat fresh set of ideas.

As I recall in our discussions street-ability was a consideration when choosing the cam. So what I was referring to was your comment regarding anything over .570 lift. Since I don't fully follow your explanation of the "area under the curve" I am simply saying that I will be curious to see how the car performs in the lower rpm range with that lift.

Ira
 
What this all boils down to is that in order to run an aggressive cam profile (not a new technology by any means) you have to be able to maintain control and stability in the valvetrain. In the case of this build, since we won't have blower rpm issues to deal with we are building the valvetrain for higher rpm capability and as a result duration has to be increased. Valve lift is of secondary importance. In fact any lift over about .570 is wasted on these heads because they just don't flow above that value but the key is not peak lift but rather area under the curve. This cam profile generates a lot of area under the curve while not killing idle vacuum or drivability and the .625 lift is just a result of that quick action. This type of profile is not possible in a hydraulic roller cam due to the very quick ramp rates. In this case we have applied a systems approach using different parts but yet commonly available technology with a somewhat fresh set of ideas.



So for just to clairify, this is a solid lifter cam with YT valve train. How high to you expect to turn the motor RPM wise? Have you figured a way to improve on the heads. I realize the valve train such as I have limit me RPM wise but I
figured the heads are the ultimate limiting factor. Would a cam like David Neiberts be considered a hot cam with Hydralic lifters It is cool to see the SC evolving and becoming more powerful each year. Great job

Ken
 
As I recall in our discussions street-ability was a consideration when choosing the cam. So what I was referring to was your comment regarding anything over .570 lift. Since I don't fully follow your explanation of the "area under the curve"

If I am reading it right. The goal here is to leverage the flow rate of the heads by allowing the valves to stay open above .050 lift for the longest possible time. To do this, the .050 open and closing points have been optimized to increase the amount of time the valve is open. Side effects of this increase places additional requirements on the design, leading to an increased valve lift, and ramp angles not workable with a hydraulic lifter.

I believe anything that can be done to improve upper rpm breathing is a win. It sounds like this approach certainly should.
 
As I recall in our discussions street-ability was a consideration when choosing the cam. So what I was referring to was your comment regarding anything over .570 lift. Since I don't fully follow your explanation of the "area under the curve" I am simply saying that I will be curious to see how the car performs in the lower rpm range with that lift.

Ira

As indeed drivability is a big consideration when selecting a cam profile. In your case we were shooting for something you could literally drive daily to the office, sit in traffic, and run the AC. Your car has light gearing (3.08's I believe) and long legs. We didn't want you to have to chug around too much. I don't believe you've had any issues with brakes either. Your entire engine package was designed around the 1.7L AR with the idea of keeping enough cylinder pressure to make for good drivability but to also provide enough rpm to make peak HP without overdriving the blower. To this day I still feel that your car represents a very well put together package of all around drivability and low maintenance. The cam we put in that motor is in keeping with that over-all goal.

This car is different.

Everything is always a compromise of some sort and this car is no exception. But we also designed into this package a number of new things that no other SC has had in the past which are intended to achieve a particular result. These are not random parts that you can pick and choose like a buffet menu and expect to arrive at the same place as this project. I intend that this project, much like yours Ira, will achieve it's intended goal.

Drivability will not be able to be compared to your car at all. This car will have 3.73 gears and a 6spd transmission, and it will have a bigger blower with a completely different operating rpm range. As a result, what qualifies as good drivability in this car will be quite different than the drivability that you experience in your car. It's intended use is also quite different from yours.
 
Finally, a BIG CAM!!!! I did a .599"/.610" lift cam some 8 YEARS AGO

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard. ;) This isn't anything new here either. Lift and duration like this is nothing new to the SC world. It's the other hardware that goes along with it that makes it interesting. As far as I know, no one has done what we are doing with this motor on a production Ford V6 as of yet.
 
I pm'd you about those but didn't get a response. Your thread about them didn't seem to pan out into anything. Did you ever get some made?

The pan is being worked on by a member here. If all goes well it will be a production piece with baffles and kickout.

Dave I know but there was no interest for them to actually be made. If you want a set I can more than likely have the guy put some together for you still. Id be interested in the pan. Gathering parts for another engine build.
 
So for just to clairify, this is a solid lifter cam with YT valve train. How high to you expect to turn the motor RPM wise? Have you figured a way to improve on the heads. I realize the valve train such as I have limit me RPM wise but I
figured the heads are the ultimate limiting factor. Would a cam like David Neiberts be considered a hot cam with Hydralic lifters It is cool to see the SC evolving and becoming more powerful each year. Great job

Ken

It's important to run the lift of the cam about .050" higher than what they flow. The lift advertised on a cam is peak lift. The valve gets most of its flow from dwelling on the lobe. On a .625 lift cam, a great portion of the duration will operate from .575-.625 lift. That's where all of the power is generated. The more duration you have, the longer the valve operates in the range of peak lift. The lobe's ramp angles becomes steep, the larger the cam profile gets, so the valve has a higher acceleration to reach the dwell point of the lobe, but also snaps shut quicker, causing potential valve bounce. The lobe is asymmetrical to reduce the speeds of the valve closing, but you still need to run higher spring pressures in order to prevent valve bounce.

Yes the heads are the limiting factor, but if the head lack flow, it's mandatory to run a larger profile cam in order to compensate, for power making. The profiles that people are running are excusable if they're being ran with high flowing heads, but they really aren't.

My cam has a 256*/260* duration at .050" and is installed at 108 LSA. I can have it in fifth gear at 800 RPM and at any portion of throttle it won't hesitate or act up. It's understandable that people see a trend in cam sizes to how they act in a car. Having a large cam in a 500CI motor with 400CFM heads will not act the same as a 350 with 250 CFM heads. The motor with more CFM will act more radical with a large cam than the lack of CFM. Having said that our V6's have terrible volumetric efficiency, so it will not act unstreetable or radical when putting a larger cam in. The cam isn't going to change when the blower gets into boost, so it will serve as increasing the maximum and peak RPM of the motor. You'll still have the low end performance.
 
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