New 3.7L V6 + Procharger =

(And I tossed a little challenge out to Ken that he better step his game up. :p It should be Chris Vining nipping at his heels, not Ryan Zimmerly.)


I appriciate the challenge Dave;) Its cool to be put on the same playing field as Chris.:cool: I am stepping up the game. I have adopted much the same mind set as David Neibert in upgrading supporting mods such as the fuel system. Look for more boost, more cam lift, & less weight. At the shootout my tach was going crazy so I left the car in drive rather than manually shifting. I figure it ran a 11.6 shifting at 5200 rpm it should do even better manually shifting at 6200 rpms;) Still think I have a ways to go to challenge the likes of Neibert and Vining. As for Ryan, I want to really put a end to his challenge but I'm sure he has something up his sleeve as well;)

Ken
 
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Still think I have a ways to go to challenge the likes of Neibert and Vining. As for Ryan, I want to really put a end to his challenge but I I'm sure he has something up his sleeve as well;)

Ken

Ken,
You (everyone) had better not forget about a certain member who is still going to run 100-125 shot with his new mods.......;)
 
Ken,
You (everyone) had better not forget about a certain member who is still going to run 100-125 shot with his new mods.......;)

I just hope you dont blow up:eek:

As for Corey, as long as you turbo guys are rowing those manuals Im not terribly worried;)



Ken
 
Because we don't have alot of numbers as in the amount of cars out there, we are leaving so much on the table as we "grow" in power. The few guys that can afford to go with the latest greatest new toys dump what they have and go to the next up step. This creates a lousy situation where no one ever knows the max capability of a previous setup, and everyone else sees these guys doing that and assumes that they have hit the max potential and now they want to go there and skip what the big dog had.

This has happened with the MPX, now obviously the 1.7L AR and no doubt soon the 2.0 setup and so on..... who here has taken the MPX to its max potential? Who here has taken the 1.7L AR to its max? and so on... in fact, who here can claim they hit the max potential of a well ported 94/95 blower before they jumped ship?

In the mustang world because of the amount of cars out there, they generally have a good idea just how far a certain upgrade can take you, so people can make some decisions and build the car accordingly..... we can't do that. Sure there are "opinions" here about such, but so far those opinions are just that ;).

BTW, in regards to the Quarterhorse, your welcome.

Fraser



I think most of us that jump ship invest plenty of time and available resources. But at some point it starts to out weight the bennefits its simply easier to just jump ship. After owning some off the said blower and then some, You try it and see what gross power increase we come up with, and when we get to a limitation the extra the gains from "maxing it out" are sometimes not worth the extra time invested but that is not to say that some have not tried to max them out but most folks are interested in Gross Average improvements. There is also science to take to consideration and a 94-95 blower is not going break the laws of physics no matter how you slice it.

A whipple 2.3l is the only game in town right now, you can get it and not to jump hoops to attain, so that is what you will see from here on. Unless you are the kind of guy that wants to be unique and likes for some reason to jump hoops just to try it out, that was some of the reason behind the M112. Uniqueness.

And Keith I think you let your cat out of your bag by posting. A 2.3l whipple? :p That will be a good challenge for Chris next year, unless he has something up his sleeve too. Seems to be alot of that lately.
 
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you all have turbos to look out for.

As long as they can run a low 10, I'm talking V-6 turbos not V-8's.

And Keith I think you let your cat out of your bag by posting. A 2.3l whipple? :p That will be a good challenge for Chris next year, unless he has something up his sleeve too. Seems to be alot of that lately.

How so Ricardo? I just stated that I'm still going to run nitrous at the track.
 
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I was impressed, but not surprised, how well your car ran at the Shootout. I knew the only difference between you running deep into the 10s and what you ran would be drivetrain. Hopefully your new setup will get you there. Not to take anything away from Mr. Vining, but if you look at it, he was running at a track which was sub-1000 feet below sea level. I have been to many tracks and have found that every 1000 feet is worth a tenth. If the DA at KilKare was 2000 feet above sea level, then Chris picked up three tenths, just by altitude/weather itself.

I'm just saying, you guys were only about a tenth away from one another (if that) at the Shootout so you shouldn't be that far away from each other. Chris always has tricks up his sleeve, though.

Casey,

Chris has done a great job of showing us how to get the most out of the power you are making. Higher stall, better gearing, computer control of shift points and converter lock-up, tweaking the tune to take advantage of track conditions ect... We always say Do Work and Chris has.

David
 
Casey,

Chris has done a great job of showing us how to get the most out of the power you are making. Higher stall, better gearing, computer control of shift points and converter lock-up, tweaking the tune to take advantage of track conditions ect... We always say Do Work and Chris has.

David

I very much agree. I'm glad that somebody started Doin' Work. We're waiting for more people to join the E85 club. Want to join?
 
I very much agree. I'm glad that somebody started Doin' Work. We're waiting for more people to join the E85 club. Want to join?

Casey,

Thanks for the invite, but they don't sell E85 at very many places around here, so I'll stick with 93 octane and meth injection for now.

David
 
So from reading the thread, I'm guessing no one is running a SC w/ a Procharger, Vortech or Powerdyne and whoever else makes a centrifugal? Would be a good idea for a kit.

As for running a whipple 2.3L bolted to a SHO motor on my Honda Prelude, I do love the low end and that it has massive power anywhere in the rpm range, the car is quite violent and it takes a lot of effort to get it to stay straight, hate to say it but if I had to do it all again I might choose to go with a centrifugal because the whipple is just so my torque but at the same time the centrifugal would have to be in the neighbored of 1400-1800 cfm which would make it pretty big which means a lot more lag and I'm always afraid some smaller SC with a roots broad power band will have me by a car length or two before the centrifugal starts to make boost, guessing here I think the price of a procharger unit itself is pretty much the same as a whipple unit, so no issue there. And the motor would have to rev higher too, if it was on a SC that is.

I think the SC would benefit from a centrifugal if a custom longer runner intake can be made to make up for the lack of low end. I believe modded mustangs magazine picked up massive amounts of torque on a Vortech setup just by using an older Cobra intake instead of the intake that came with the 4.6L M112 engine.

Is all a matter of choice, maybe Procharger is the way to go.
 
I was impressed, but not surprised, how well your car ran at the Shootout. I knew the only difference between you running deep into the 10s and what you ran would be drivetrain. Hopefully your new setup will get you there. Not to take anything away from Mr. Vining, but if you look at it, he was running at a track which was sub-1000 feet below sea level. I have been to many tracks and have found that every 1000 feet is worth a tenth. If the DA at KilKare was 2000 feet above sea level, then Chris picked up three tenths, just by altitude/weather itself.

I'm just saying, you guys were only about a tenth away from one another (if that) at the Shootout so you shouldn't be that far away from each other. Chris always has tricks up his sleeve, though.

You with awesome power don't have a clue!!

First off, All I want to say is Chris is not running nearly the same combo as David is. Chris's is a 3.8 with a 2.0 I believe.

Secondly, Both cars were dynoed at the shootout and David's made approximately 40+ more HP and 40+ more tq. Estimated. It's not known how much more it made after a tuning session at the track that day to help resolve some issues. Those in the know may want to speak up here.

Third, all runs that day were made on the same track same conditions, DA, etc. Also Chris was having the same drivetrain issues as David with the set up not being maximized. Also, some tuning issues.

Fourth, Not sure on what the actual weights of the cars were but Chris did run all day with his interior intact. Can't specify there. May have been no difference in weight. Don't know.

Fifth, The numbers at the shootout were just that. On equal basis. Chris has since optimized his drivetrain since the shootout and before the times he set at MIR past fall (Based upon information we gathered at the dyno at the shootout). That being said, unless and until David gets his car (Drivetrain) in the same state it still would be no match for Chris's car. David, Understand I'm not saying anything at all bad about your car, cause I'm not, its just the point. I know there is more potential in your car.

Sixth, the DA at the shootout was approximatley 500 ft. runs after
that were not -2000 DA. But he did have excellent air on those passes. No way are you going to account 3-5/10 from the shootout times to MIR on Air Density. Think again.

Seventh, I'd like to know what "DEEP" in the 10's mean to you. Give me a number. What drivetrain mods does Dave need to do to get there with his current set up?

Eighth, Chris is a very good driver of this platform and understands what it takes to make them run on the track.

The only other thing that I know of that Chris or Nickleman60 might have had up their sleeves this year was, hmmm, maybe me?

Knowledge is a dangerous thing! Look at the power numbers, combinations and ET's.
 
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So from reading the thread, I'm guessing no one is running a SC w/ a Procharger, Vortech or Powerdyne and whoever else makes a centrifugal? Would be a good idea for a kit.

As for running a whipple 2.3L bolted to a SHO motor on my Honda Prelude, I do love the low end and that it has massive power anywhere in the rpm range, the car is quite violent and it takes a lot of effort to get it to stay straight, hate to say it but if I had to do it all again I might choose to go with a centrifugal because the whipple is just so my torque but at the same time the centrifugal would have to be in the neighbored of 1400-1800 cfm which would make it pretty big which means a lot more lag and I'm always afraid some smaller SC with a roots broad power band will have me by a car length or two before the centrifugal starts to make boost, guessing here I think the price of a procharger unit itself is pretty much the same as a whipple unit, so no issue there. And the motor would have to rev higher too, if it was on a SC that is.

I think the SC would benefit from a centrifugal if a custom longer runner intake can be made to make up for the lack of low end. I believe modded mustangs magazine picked up massive amounts of torque on a Vortech setup just by using an older Cobra intake instead of the intake that came with the 4.6L M112 engine.

Is all a matter of choice, maybe Procharger is the way to go.

You can ask this SC owner.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showpost.php?p=923455&postcount=9
 
You with awesome power don't have a clue!!

First off, All I want to say is Chris is not running nearly the same combo as David is. Chris's is a 3.8 with a 2.0 I believe.

Secondly, Both cars were dynoed at the shootout and David's made approximately 40+ more HP and 40+ more tq. Estimated. It's not known how much more it made after a tuning session at the track that day to help resolve some issues. Those in the know may want to speak up here.

Third, all runs that day were made on the same track same conditions, DA, etc. Also Chris was having the same drivetrain issues as David with the set up not being maximized. Also, some tuning issues.

Fourth, Not sure on what the actual weights of the cars were but Chris did run all day with his interior intact. Can't specify there. May have been no difference in weight. Don't know.

Fifth, The numbers at the shootout were just that. On equal basis. Chris has since optimized his drivetrain since the shootout and before the times he set at MIR past fall (Based upon information we gathered at the dyno at the shootout). That being said, unless and until David gets his car (Drivetrain) in the same state it still would be no match for Chris's car. David, Understand I'm not saying anything at all bad about your car, cause I'm not, its just the point. I know there is more potential in your car.

Sixth, the DA at the shootout was approximatley 500 ft. runs after
that were not -2000 DA. But he did have excellent air on those passes. No way are you going to account 3-5/10 from the shootout times to MIR on Air Density. Think again.

Seventh, I'd like to know what "DEEP" in the 10's mean to you. Give me a number. What drivetrain mods does Dave need to do to get there with his current set up?

Eighth, Chris is a very good driver of this platform and understands what it takes to make them run on the track.

The only other thing that I know of that Chris or Nickleman60 might have had up their sleeves this year was, hmmm, maybe me?

Knowledge is a dangerous thing! Look at the power numbers, combinations and ET's.

Mr. KittyFace,

I, too, am not putting down anyone's cars. Just using them as guinea pigs. I respect their cars very much.

The only point of me writing that post was to put in perspective as to how close David is to Chris, in ET. He presented a goal and I was telling him how realistic his goal is. I wasn't comparing the efficiency of each of their cars.

Sixth, the DA at the shootout was approximatley 500 ft. runs after
that were not -2000 DA. But he did have excellent air on those passes. No way are you going to account 3-5/10 from the shootout times to MIR on Air Density. Think again.
I don't remember the DA of KilKare. I was adding the total DA loss from the Shootout to Chris' track. Based on what you say, it would have been around 2000ft. of DA loss. That would account for approximately two tenths. A supercharged car will gain boost with air density, so the performance could increase the performance of the car in an exponential manner. This will happen for both cars, so then again, it only alludes to my original meaning of my quoted post. I can give you a lecture including calculations of how the DA affects the flow rate of a motor, but that would be pretty boring. Since I go to 8-10 races a year with flux of DA from track-to-track, I have figured that DA has a rather consistent effect on a car's performance per thousand feet.

Seventh, I'd like to know what "DEEP" in the 10's mean to you. Give me a number. What drivetrain mods does Dave need to do to get there with his current set up?
What I mean by "deep" is that the car will not slow to an 11 ET based on normal DA conditions. Lets say 10.50s-10.70s. Chris and Neibert's goal sets them "deep" into the 10s. I could have said "well" instead of "deep", but I figured that would be minutia regardless of what I choose. David only needs a good converter, with a higher stall, to get into the 10s. Perhaps a transmission that locks up to get even deeper.

Anyways, this year is gonna be crazy. Everyone's ready to let the dogs out. Can't wait for the new 2011 smack talk thread. I'm starting to take notes!
 
Casey,

Thanks for the invite, but they don't sell E85 at very many places around here, so I'll stick with 93 octane and meth injection for now.

David

they sell e-85 at the zx off of exit 229 (first capitol). i use a 25/75 mix in my car and the kia runs it 100%
 
Mr. KittyFace,

I, too, am not putting down anyone's cars. Just using them as guinea pigs. I respect their cars very much.

The only point of me writing that post was to put in perspective as to how close David is to Chris, in ET. He presented a goal and I was telling him how realistic his goal is. I wasn't comparing the efficiency of each of their cars.


I don't remember the DA of KilKare. I was adding the total DA loss from the Shootout to Chris' track. Based on what you say, it would have been around 2000ft. of DA loss. That would account for approximately two tenths. A supercharged car will gain boost with air density, so the performance could increase the performance of the car in an exponential manner. This will happen for both cars, so then again, it only alludes to my original meaning of my quoted post. I can give you a lecture including calculations of how the DA affects the flow rate of a motor, but that would be pretty boring. Since I go to 8-10 races a year with flux of DA from track-to-track, I have figured that DA has a rather consistent effect on a car's performance per thousand feet.


What I mean by "deep" is that the car will not slow to an 11 ET based on normal DA conditions. Lets say 10.50s-10.70s. Chris and Neibert's goal sets them "deep" into the 10s. I could have said "well" instead of "deep", but I figured that would be minutia regardless of what I choose. David only needs a good converter, with a higher stall, to get into the 10s. Perhaps a transmission that locks up to get even deeper.

Anyways, this year is gonna be crazy. Everyone's ready to let the dogs out. Can't wait for the new 2011 smack talk thread. I'm starting to take notes!

LOL!!! Looks like I have a new name!!! :D

CMAC,

I will state again. There was not 2000 ft Air density between Kilkare and MIR. So how are you accounting for 4-5/10ths ET. Your mathematical equation doesn't work here. I've never raced a calculater because no matter how you do it you can never figure in all the factors. Its just like racing a dyno. Its a tool for tuning and comparison purposes only. I mean, we saw how that worked at the shootout didn't we? I can justify Chris's ET change. Slight DA, drivetrain mods & consistant driving. I've run MN12 cars for 15 years on tracks as far south as Georgia, far north as New Jersey, far west as St. Louis and various tracks in between for many years. I know what DA does. I also know it varies by car & powertrain.

On the power front and how the cars should run, David's car (All other things being equal) Should eventually outperform Chris's car with his set up. Plain and simple. BTW, so should yours. Thats comparing set ups and looking at HP numbers.

I have no doubts that David's car has the capability and will run down in the 10's once he has the right converter among other things. How far down who knows. My estimation is the current set ups of both of those cars will never see "Deep" 10's 10.25's - 10.50's even in the best of air. That would keep them mostly in the mid 10's to 11.0 on general tracks all things considered. Not shabby for street cars that have the capability of some running on the track.
 
(And I tossed a little challenge out to Ken that he better step his game up. :p It should be Chris Vining nipping at his heels, not Ryan Zimmerly.)

As for Ryan, I want to really put a end to his challenge but I'm sure he has something up his sleeve as well

I think I'll keep up my challenge with Ken for at least a couple more years with the 1.7.:p

I plan to maximize my motor/heads combination over the next year or so to see just how far I can take the 1.7 before I start to look for a bigger blower. This year will be rather simple upgrades like freeing up the intake side of the blower, and dialing in my tune to see whats left on the table yet.

PS for Ken: I couldn't shift past 5800 at the shootout, because at the time I didn't know how in QH to change the rev limiter past 6000, so my ET's could have been the same as yours.
 
PS for Ken: I couldn't shift past 5800 at the shootout, because at the time I didn't know how in QH to change the rev limiter past 6000, so my ET's could have been the same as yours.

I am assuming, you are all reading your in dash tach for these comments. I think you will all be surprised if you set a limter and watch the tach, I just about peg my tach right when it hits my 6500rpm revlimter. Set at 6800 it will peg the tach. Or datalog a pass shifting at your spot on the tach and check back to see where you're really shifting, you may be giving up a few tenths/ few hundred rpm.

Corey
 
I am assuming, you are all reading your in dash tach for these comments. I think you will all be surprised if you set a limter and watch the tach, I just about peg my tach right when it hits my 6500rpm revlimter. Set at 6800 it will peg the tach. Or datalog a pass shifting at your spot on the tach and check back to see where you're really shifting, you may be giving up a few tenths/ few hundred rpm.

Corey


At the shootout, my tach was bouncing all over the place, my Shiftlight didnt work at all, the AFR gauge quite working, I blew the resonator wide open, couldnt get a respectable tune because hooking the computer up messed with the MAF signal. All I could do was put the car in drive at the line and mash the pedal. On the last run I was doing a one wheel burn out. So I feel there is more to be had. I think I have a long road ahead to catch David, Chris & Keith. Right now it seems my immediate competition is Kurt & Ryan and a dark horse turbo:rolleyes::D

Ken
 
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