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Thread: Any try CRME motor + AR kit combo?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    Beaumont, TX
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    741

    Any try CRME motor + AR kit combo?

    Back in 05 I was going to do the Coy miller satge II motor with the R heads and Dave's then new AR kit together. Pulled the motor and sent it to Coy and had Dave fabricating the AR kit. Well, about 6 months passed and Coy was just finishing my motor and Dave was about to send the AR kit when I purchased a house. By then I ended up losing interest in the whole project as I still had to assemble the car back together. I had about $16K invested in it. I ended up selling off everything to raise money to remodel my house. Now im kicking myself in the rear. I bought another SC last year and im just concentrating on restoring it for now. I was curious to know if anyone else put this combo together and how much power they were making?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    NYC
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    for sure over 400rwhp
    Doing a JD. Current most HP/TQ per lb of boost, turbo or Supercharged FActory 3.8 SC v6 ford block based. Yahh Buddy
    http://www.sccoa.com/forums/garage_v...vehicle&id=110
    Quote Originally Posted by ricardoa1 View Post
    I love the filter. Its pimp. paper element and 10Mircron filtration, 12" long cause size matters.

  3. #3
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    Dec 2003
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    Coys website says the motor should make 430-450hp with 16psi boost. I wondered if the AR blower would have made more power. Also had 85mm tb, sp alcohol injection, and mp fmic.

  4. #4
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    I've essentially got that setup, but mine is a very early CMRE stage II and the heads may not be up to your head's specs. Also, I know my cam isn't as aggressive as later ones.

    My car has never put up good dyno numbers compared to my track times. My best dyno number to date is 365 rwhp through a non-locking converter, and my best 1/4 mile time is 11.52. I did get 357 rwhp on a Mustang dyno, so that bumps me up a bit on the dynojet numbers, but I'm still below the 400 threshold.
    Kurt K (e-mail)
    SCCoA Member #: 443
    '92 SC AOD -- 11.521s @ 116.748mph, 2.0 AR power
    . . . . . . . . . -- 13.547s @ 101.01 mph, only w/ bolt-ons
    '95 SC 5spd -- All Stock, except 17" Simmons wheels.
    '90 SC 35th Anny 5spd -- 3rd owner, 16k miles
    2 '89 XR7 5spd's -- on their way out, really!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Madison, Ohio
    Posts
    16,959
    A CMRE SIIR motor makes 430-450hp on an engine dyno under ideal conditions. Once installed in a car it typically makes about 350rwhp. I've worked on several.

    Adding an AR to most engines typically adds about 50-70rwhp depending on how well optimized the engine was before the AR was added. I tuned one CMSIIR motor that had Coy's recommended Tech3 EMS with the AR and FMIC, basically just the way he recommended it be set up and it made about 410rwhp as I recall.

    You have to remember that HP is a function almost entirely of cylinder heads / camshaft combo + blower cfm. Ultimately with forced induction in particular, the rest of the motor is only there to support the power, it doesn't really generate any on it's own. That being said, I have used CMRE type cylinder heads with my own camshaft and blower setups to make in the neighborhood of 500rwhp.

    I think there is more in our motors than that, but a CMSIIR motor the way it was delivered from CMRE probably wouldn't do more than about 450rwhp whatever blower you put on it.

    That's just my opinion based on what I've seen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas95SC View Post
    Coys website says the motor should make 430-450hp with 16psi boost. I wondered if the AR blower would have made more power. Also had 85mm tb, sp alcohol injection, and mp fmic.
    Pretty sure that Coy's hp numbers are at the crank since he is using an engine dyno.
    Kurt K (e-mail)
    SCCoA Member #: 443
    '92 SC AOD -- 11.521s @ 116.748mph, 2.0 AR power
    . . . . . . . . . -- 13.547s @ 101.01 mph, only w/ bolt-ons
    '95 SC 5spd -- All Stock, except 17" Simmons wheels.
    '90 SC 35th Anny 5spd -- 3rd owner, 16k miles
    2 '89 XR7 5spd's -- on their way out, really!

  7. #7
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    Yep and at the crank is a different world than at the wheels.

  8. #8
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    I'll tell you a little story since this has come and no one is arguing, just asking for information.

    Back in the day Coy, Bill Hull, Rich Thomson, Charles Warner, Spiro and perhaps others were working on the SC. Way back in the day. So the story goes that Bill Hull had commissioned Coy to build the first (or SCCOA's first) badass SC motor which he did and the power numbers came out around 400hp. I remember the posts back when I first had access to a computer and barely knew what an internet was. This would have been somewhere around 1997.

    To set the stage for this you have to understand that Coy is a race engine builder, not a car hot rodder. You also have to recognize that chassis dyno's were not used extensively back then nor were they trusted like they are now. Chassis dynos were (and sometimes still are) scorned by "real" race engine builders. We as consumers focus on usable HP (rwhp) whereas an engine builder sees the car as the enemy robbing power from his creation. Because of this most engine builders typically don't like or use chassis dyno's.

    Ok, so back to the story. So Coy dyno'd the motor in the fashion which he was used to dyno'ing motors. Straight shot intake with no filter, bell mouth adapter to straighten airflow, intercooler with unlimited airflow through it, oversized cooling system, headers with no exhaust system. No power steerring or alternator. You might be starting to get the picture..... The engine was set up to make power!

    At the time the SC community included a few people whom later on "parted ways" over personality conflicts, but one of the people not mentioned above also went personally to Coy's to look at this "400HP+ SC engine". Rich, Spiro, Bill, Charles, and maybe some others were all there ooing and ahhing over this motor. The "other" person who was there at the time was Jerry W. Jerry, being a Ford engineer at the time, was a little more critical than the rest and he disapproved of the test methods. He wasn't impressed by the 400hp and proceeded to predict, much to the utter disgust of everyone in the room, that the motor would make about 280-290hp on a chassis dyno, and proceeded to explain why. Some people got really upset. In fact they got so upset that this ended up being one of the contributing factors to the creation of TCCOA. Jerry was no longer welcome. Granted, Jerry has a pretty big ego too, but the story continues on with Bill Hull, Rich Thompson, and a variety of others all making under 300rwhp (some more but most less) with their 400HP CMRESII motors. It was even more confusing when I made 313rwhp on my homebrew stock bottom end motor three years later in 2000, after to my knowledge, none of the CMRE motors (cars) had surpassed 300rwhp by more than a couple hp, but Jerry was long gone by then.

    So there is a little story about that. Interestingly enough, there is a "new" person posting here about his car that went into storage about this same time. His car is a west coast relic from the same time period with parts and R&D from a completely different camp. The owner says that Kenny Duttweiller tuned his car, but due to the fact that Gerry Magnuson and Eaton were involved with that car, I'm pretty sure that Jerry W. probably knew about that one (and others) that existed about that time making probably significantly more power than the CMRE ones did. But as a tuner and Ford engineer you end up being privy to lots of things that would be considered "unfair" to the competition as well as just plain confidential at the time.

    It's trivia really at this point, but the stories have merit and do help to explain why some things evolved the way they did. It helps explain why in the early days there were many promising developments that simply disappeared and we were left scratching our heads. We've gained most of it all back now, but the road has been long and convoluted in the mean time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  9. #9
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    Interesting history indeed. I wish knew more about the early days since I joined in 2003. 400+rwhp seems to be the fad of the era now.
    SCCoA Member#: 2515
    1990 SC AOD 2.1L Kenne Bell
    11.676 @ 121.35 mph
    506hp/478tq
    My Garage

  10. #10
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    Cool story. Its nice to know some of the history of the early years

    Ken

    93 SC Whipple powered 11.648 @ 119.6
    Twin Turbo, water intercooled..yet to see

  11. #11
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    Then there was this one time I want to say 2005 maybe earlier, I had the pleasure of running Georges D. Short Wheel Base car, which also has a Coy Miller equipped engine. This was on the highway right off the fairgrounds and we were headed to the restaurant for dinner. My Stig headed car with a 94-95 blower simply walked the Coy Equipped car I was scratching my head that day. How could I walk on a 400HP equipped car. I thank George D. for running the beast, although that might have been a reason why he wanted to do the Inverted Whipple later on. The Whipple project never made it to the car as far as I know. But my head was a little bigger that day. Oh and I had Paul Roberge from BTM in my car and he is not a very light person and all my gear. GD was by himself and all his gear.

  12. #12
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    Interesting bit of drama. I wonder if those old school folks ever peak on the forums to see whats developed over the years.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toms-SC View Post
    Interesting bit of drama. I wonder if those old school folks ever peak on the forums to see whats developed over the years.
    I wonder that a lot. I know George was working on the Whipple but you never see anything about it or any postings by him on anything. All the other big dogs of those days are never on the boards so one wonders if they lost their love for their cars, like some so what happen. I am really glad a few of the earlier memberships are around but the rest, just seem to have disappear.


    Ken

    93 SC Whipple powered 11.648 @ 119.6
    Twin Turbo, water intercooled..yet to see

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricardoa1 View Post
    Then there was this one time I want to say 2005 maybe earlier, I had the pleasure of running Georges D. Short Wheel Base car, which also has a Coy Miller equipped engine. This was on the highway right off the fairgrounds and we were headed to the restaurant for dinner. My Stig headed car with a 94-95 blower simply walked the Coy Equipped car I was scratching my head that day. How could I walk on a 400HP equipped car. I thank George D. for running the beast, although that might have been a reason why he wanted to do the Inverted Whipple later on. The Whipple project never made it to the car as far as I know. But my head was a little bigger that day. Oh and I had Paul Roberge from BTM in my car and he is not a very light person and all my gear. GD was by himself and all his gear.
    If it was from a roll, it doesn't matter....the AOD is horrible for roll racing.
    Kurt K (e-mail)
    SCCoA Member #: 443
    '92 SC AOD -- 11.521s @ 116.748mph, 2.0 AR power
    . . . . . . . . . -- 13.547s @ 101.01 mph, only w/ bolt-ons
    '95 SC 5spd -- All Stock, except 17" Simmons wheels.
    '90 SC 35th Anny 5spd -- 3rd owner, 16k miles
    2 '89 XR7 5spd's -- on their way out, really!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
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    Indy
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    It's amazing that the Jerry guy affected people so negatively. Puts the whole world versus Aristotle/Plato story of the earth being round instead of flat, in perspective.

    If everyone still used the M90, the story may not be that much different. Unless you do something like Kevin's doing, we would all be at sub/par 400rwhp levels and scratching our heads. Solid roller lifters, 351C/429/460 shaft mount rockers, and any valve spring has always been available. I know billet cam blanks weren't always around, but we've been able to run whatever spec we want to for a while now.

    I'm glad how far this group has come. It makes a lot of things seem possible.
    CORN GAAAAASSS!!!


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