Manual vs Automatic

bholmes

Registered User
I have searched this topic and not been able to find much information. What are the common problems with the manual trannys and auto trannys? What are the opinions floating around out there about each? I typically favor manuals but I have a few SC's I'm looking at in the next week or so and I am trying to figure out which is the best route to go. I had a 94 Thunderbird SC with auto a few years back. I loved the car in general, but was not impressed with the tranny as far as shifting. I know that can tweaked a shift kit if need be though. Primarily I'm looking at durability, cost of maintenance, maintenance intervals and common problems.

It seems alot of the mauals I have talked to people about have had new clutches or are needing clutches, is this generally a sign of abuse or is it just a natural course of events on the SC (over powered/under clutched).
 
The synchronizers are what usually give the most problems with the M5R2 transmissions. They can also feel notchy when trying to speed shift. Wish they were a little smoother but would rather have my 5 speed than an auto any day.
 
I would say 5 speed all the way. I swapped my 91 from a AOD to a M5R2 and it made it so much more fun to drive.
 
You really can't replace the consistency of an auto at the track. I think the aod is a hell of a transmission if built properly. Honestly I had no issues with my aod's, aode's or our 4r70w that many club members complain about. :) I prefer the 4r70w over the aod as a personal preference due to it's natural ability to handle more power but both transmissions are very tough when time is spent addressing the weak points. I also know there are folks on here that have had great success with the manual transmission. Again it really depends on for what you are looking. I love the torque multiplying capability of a torque converter down low and the consistency of the auto but love the control a driver has with a manual. Either way you could end up spending money repairing either both the manual or auto. Which do you prefer?
 
Yes you all have good points. If the car is a track car then yes an auto is the way to go. But for me my car is a DD for now. So I like to keep the fun factor of the car.
 
It depends on what you are doing with the car. Is this a daily driver or a pleasure vehicle. If pleasure - do you have plans of routinely racing the car on a drag strip or road course? Some of us are never happy, keep adding power, keep going to the track, keep improving on 1/4 mile times and in these cases - the manual can be a real Pain in the AZZ because the notchy shifting really shows up when you are at high rpm and need to grab gears as efficiently as possible to squeeze every tenth out of the car.

For just driving around, it's not this serious. So my opinion is, if you don't have any intentions of getting caught up in semi-routine drag racing - go with the manual. If you have some 1/4 mile goals already set in mind, the auto would probably save you a lot of aggrivation.

P.S. There is no "common" problem with the M5R2 other than the shifters get sloppy. Clutches just wear out over time. Even if the car is driven by a grandma, it can get glazed up and start to slip. The gearboxes are strong and parts are plentiful to keep them going. Get a B&M ripper shifter though. The AOD's are time tested and do fine too. You'll spend more money getting an AOD to perform though.
 
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The only issue I had with my AOD was OD band, trashed the last one in ~6k miles. At stock levels a AOD is just fine though.

With you have a 94 and a 4R70W you are starting with a better tranny but being a 94 you have a few minor issue (being a first year).

If your modding you will need to build any auto.
 
i swapped my supercoupe powered mustang from a stick to an auto and it is more fun on the track, but less fun on the street. i gained 6mpg with the auto because of driving style
 
Thanks for all the input guys. I will be using the car as a DD. I know that the manuals had a higher rearend ration and are inherently more efficient if driven modestly than most the auto trannys. I doubt I will ever go to the strip, but I do look to modestly bump the HP sometime in the future (exhaust, intercooler and maybe pulleys). From the sounds of things I will continue to try to find the right 5spd car. I have found some nice auto tranny cars out there, but nothin like a clutch pedal in my opinion :)
 
Couldn't agree with you more. All my cars are 5-speed except the Benz and I love to change it over.

My black build project may be set up to change from AOD to M5R2 w/o excessive handwaving...:rolleyes:
 
I like the automatic transmission. If i was planning to build a high powered SC to race against motorcycles on the highway at speeds above 125, the manual transmission would be my choice. For pretty much everything else, I think the automatic is superior, especially a late model automatic with electronic controls and lockable converter.

David
 
Personally I think an automatic transmission is a complete waste in these cars, or any performance car for that matter. People always say "an auto is more consistent", or "an auto is faster in the 1/4mi", and I call BS on both of these statements every time. People compare a professionally built automatic transmission, that was built to go in a drag car, and has a higher stall converter, and upgraded frictions, and a modified valve body and where the shift points are tuned in, with a stock 5-speed car and say "see, its faster and more consistent". Take that same car and put a close ratio Jerico 4-speed in it, and someone who knows how to properly drive a manual trans car, and see which one makes it down the 1/4mi faster or is more consistent now? I've never had a problem being more consistent in a manual trans car than in an automatic, and my opinion is that if you don't know how to drive a manual trans car, then you don't know how to drive at all, and if you don't know how to drive a manual trans car consistently, then you don't know how to drive consistently. Don't blame the transmission if the car is not consistent, blame the driver.

As far as these cars go in particular, if you were unhappy with the 4R70W in the 94, then you will be sorely disappointed with an AOD (aka a DOA trans). With stock power levels and in stock form, a DOA trans can last a long time, but they don't take kindly to having more power put through them, and they don't take kindly to WOT shifts, and they don't take kindly to the TV cable being slightly out of adjustment, and they don't take kindly to steeper rear end gears, and they don't take kindly to higher stall converters that still have a lockup, and they don't take kindly to higher trans temps that come with a non-lockup converter, and... well you get the idea. So before you are going to put any more power through an AOD, you need to either convert it to a 4R70, or drop $3K on a built trans. The 5-speeds are not without problems, but I'll take an M5R2 over any automatic any day. The M5R2s were originally designed as a truck transmission, so the gears themselves are very strong, and I have only heard of a few people actually doing any damage to them, however the synchros really aren't up to the task of speed shifting at 6K rpms. On the street under normal driving, they will wear out quicker than in a T5, but even on a freshly rebuilt trans, you might find that the gears grind when taching out 1st gear and grabbing 2nd. Also, the stock shifter is garbage, and in my opinion is the sole cause of the "notchy" shifts that everyone complains about with these transmissions. With a B&M ripper shifter, my M5R2s are just as easy to shift as my buddy's T5 or my Tremec 3650, both of which also have aftermarket shifters. That does bring us to the other problem with the M5R2 which is parts availability, or rather unavailability. The B&M shifter was the only performance shifter ever made for this trans, and it has been discontinued, so if you get a 5-speed car you will need to track down a used one, and since they are a necessary mod for any 5 speed car, and are not going to be produced anymore, used ones typically go for more than they did when they were new. Also, if your trans does require a rebuild, synchros are also unavailable, and the only option is to use ones for an F150, which will work but don't have the fiber lining, so the synchros that were not really up to the task before will now be even worse. Also, the gear ratios in the early style M5R2 are not ideal. 1st and 2nd are very steep, which is a lot of fun on the street, but then there is a very disappointing huge jump going to 3rd, then 4th is 1:1, and 5th is .75:1. The 94/95 M5R2s had a shallower 1st and 2nd gear, with 3rd, 4th, and 5th being the same, so all the gears are more evenly spaced, but that also means that with the stock 2.73 rear end gears, you are not getting as much torque multiplication out of the hole as the earlier style trans. Compensating by changing the rear end ratio will work, but then you still have only a .75 5th gear compared to say a T5's .67 or .62, which is better because how often are you taching out 4th gear and looking to grab another gear and keep accelerating? Ultimately, the best option would be a T56 swap, but for a street car I think you'll be quite happy with a good condition M5R2 with a B&M ripper shifter.
 
Personally I think an automatic transmission is a complete waste in these cars, or any performance car for that matter. People always say "an auto is more consistent", or "an auto is faster in the 1/4mi", and I call BS on both of these statements every time. People compare a professionally built automatic transmission, that was built to go in a drag car, and has a higher stall converter, and upgraded frictions, and a modified valve body and where the shift points are tuned in, with a stock 5-speed car and say "see, its faster and more consistent". Take that same car and put a close ratio Jerico 4-speed in it, and someone who knows how to properly drive a manual trans car, and see which one makes it down the 1/4mi faster or is more consistent now? I've never had a problem being more consistent in a manual trans car than in an automatic, and my opinion is that if you don't know how to drive a manual trans car, then you don't know how to drive at all, and if you don't know how to drive a manual trans car consistently, then you don't know how to drive consistently. Don't blame the transmission if the car is not consistent, blame the driver.

As far as these cars go in particular, if you were unhappy with the 4R70W in the 94, then you will be sorely disappointed with an AOD (aka a DOA trans). With stock power levels and in stock form, a DOA trans can last a long time, but they don't take kindly to having more power put through them, and they don't take kindly to WOT shifts, and they don't take kindly to the TV cable being slightly out of adjustment, and they don't take kindly to steeper rear end gears, and they don't take kindly to higher stall converters that still have a lockup, and they don't take kindly to higher trans temps that come with a non-lockup converter, and... well you get the idea. So before you are going to put any more power through an AOD, you need to either convert it to a 4R70, or drop $3K on a built trans. The 5-speeds are not without problems, but I'll take an M5R2 over any automatic any day. The M5R2s were originally designed as a truck transmission, so the gears themselves are very strong, and I have only heard of a few people actually doing any damage to them, however the synchros really aren't up to the task of speed shifting at 6K rpms. On the street under normal driving, they will wear out quicker than in a T5, but even on a freshly rebuilt trans, you might find that the gears grind when taching out 1st gear and grabbing 2nd. Also, the stock shifter is garbage, and in my opinion is the sole cause of the "notchy" shifts that everyone complains about with these transmissions. With a B&M ripper shifter, my M5R2s are just as easy to shift as my buddy's T5 or my Tremec 3650, both of which also have aftermarket shifters. That does bring us to the other problem with the M5R2 which is parts availability, or rather unavailability. The B&M shifter was the only performance shifter ever made for this trans, and it has been discontinued, so if you get a 5-speed car you will need to track down a used one, and since they are a necessary mod for any 5 speed car, and are not going to be produced anymore, used ones typically go for more than they did when they were new. Also, if your trans does require a rebuild, synchros are also unavailable, and the only option is to use ones for an F150, which will work but don't have the fiber lining, so the synchros that were not really up to the task before will now be even worse. Also, the gear ratios in the early style M5R2 are not ideal. 1st and 2nd are very steep, which is a lot of fun on the street, but then there is a very disappointing huge jump going to 3rd, then 4th is 1:1, and 5th is .75:1. The 94/95 M5R2s had a shallower 1st and 2nd gear, with 3rd, 4th, and 5th being the same, so all the gears are more evenly spaced, but that also means that with the stock 2.73 rear end gears, you are not getting as much torque multiplication out of the hole as the earlier style trans. Compensating by changing the rear end ratio will work, but then you still have only a .75 5th gear compared to say a T5's .67 or .62, which is better because how often are you taching out 4th gear and looking to grab another gear and keep accelerating? Ultimately, the best option would be a T56 swap, but for a street car I think you'll be quite happy with a good condition M5R2 with a B&M ripper shifter.

Wow! Well now that madmikeyl has spoken anyone running an automatic should start the process of converting to a manual. How much power does your SC have? How quick is it in the quarter mile?
 
No idea how quick it is in the quarter, I haven't run it yet. I bought the car as it is as far as mods, and I am spending more time fixing stuff the previous owner hacked together and trying to make it a comfortable, fun, and reliable daily driver, and I really have no plans to try to make it a quick quarter mile car. I'm no professional or even experienced drag racer, and when I do go to the track in any of my cars, I do it only for fun, but I have no problem being far more consistent with a manual trans than most of the people there with autos, so if you are saying a manual trans can't be consistent, I have to disagree with you just on personal experience. And I'm not saying everyone should convert their auto to a manual, although I do admit I would love to see what cars like Neibert's would do with a T56, I just hate that manual transmissions are dismissed as being slower and inconsistent, and not once have I seen a legitimate comparison of a built auto vs. a built manual or a stock auto vs. a stock manual that supports that theory.
 
No idea how quick it is in the quarter, I haven't run it yet. I bought the car as it is as far as mods, and I am spending more time fixing stuff the previous owner hacked together and trying to make it a comfortable, fun, and reliable daily driver, and I really have no plans to try to make it a quick quarter mile car. I'm no professional or even experienced drag racer, and when I do go to the track in any of my cars, I do it only for fun, but I have no problem being far more consistent with a manual trans than most of the people there with autos, so if you are saying a manual trans can't be consistent, I have to disagree with you just on personal experience. And I'm not saying everyone should convert their auto to a manual, although I do admit I would love to see what cars like Neibert's would do with a T56, I just hate that manual transmissions are dismissed as being slower and inconsistent, and not once have I seen a legitimate comparison of a built auto vs. a built manual or a stock auto vs. a stock manual that supports that theory.

Most of my experience comes racing fox body Mustangs. I had a 1991 that ran 10.40's in the quarter mile and I did this with an AOD I built up myself. That AOD was like a timex watch. I must have had 150+ passes on that transmission without incident. My other transmission was an AODE I had in a 1995 Mustang. That car was NA and would run mid 12's consistently. That was nothing more than AODE with a nice converter and again ran without incident for over 100 passes. I also had a 1990 Thunderbird SC that broke into the 12's about 9 years ago and that was an AOD with a solid input shaft, Lentech valve body and a non-locking converter and yet again ran without incident and I may add is still being driven by the same person that bought my car 9 years later and has yet to have anything more than a fluid change. I will admit that he only drives the car to shows and doesn't drive it often. Still with the two years I beat the hell out of it and the 9 years he has driven it without incident isn't too bad. I could go on with my auto's but I think you get the picture. I have also had my fair share of manuals and I can say that albeit all were fun to drive but not once did I think about running one at the drag strip for one reason and one alone. No matter how well a manual transmission is built up, people still make mistakes. We miss shifts, shift too soon, hell even shift at different RPM from time to time, launch RPM changes, etc. BTW - none of these potential changes would be the transmissions fault. It's all about the human error. Strictly from a personal standpoint if I want to build a drag car, I want to eliminate as much of the human factor as possible. Worrying about shift points, and missing shifts, etc. is less for me to think about. I have seen plenty of fast manuals, and undoubtedly their is less HP loss with a manual. I like manuals. My 2011 Mustang GT is a manual. BTW - the MT82 6 speed manual in the Mustang GT is a big ~~~. Just google MT82 and see for yourself. I wish I had went with the 6R80W. That's another story. As I digress. At any rate i will get off my pulpit now. LOL.
 
Primarily I'm looking at durability, cost of maintenance, maintenance intervals and common problems.

It seems alot of the mauals I have talked to people about have had new clutches or are needing clutches, is this generally a sign of abuse or is it just a natural course of events on the SC (over powered/under clutched).

To answer just your question and try not to put too much opinion in there.....:cool:

Durability: - All of the SC automatic transmissions have a lifespan of no more than 100K miles. If anyone has more than that on on original auto, new or old style, you are on borrowed time. With a 5spd unless it's been abused, 200K miles is no problem. Durability hands down 5spd.

Cost of maintenance: - I think the 5spd gets the edge here too. Some people can burn up a clutch in 5K miles or less. It's all driver. I changed the original clutch in my XR7 at nearly 200K for the first time. I was worried about it since I tend to race quite a bit as well as did a lot of towing over the years (yes towing). It was still quite servicable when removed. The clutch in the SC is the biggest clutch of any Ford product including trucks. It's not under-clutched. Shifters all need replaced after about 100K miles, and a rebuild is about $800 most places if you need syncro's.

On the auto you have the problem of a converter that almost always balloons, bands that wear out, and internal hard parts that break. A decent rebuild with an improved converter is about $1500. Fortunately (or not depending on how you look at it), that's about all that goes wrong with them. A lot of people nurse partially broken auto's for awhile before springing for the rebuild, so just expect if you buy an auto with over 100K you are probably looking at a tranny rebuild.

Common problems: 5spd - as mentioned, shifter failures. syncros can go out, slave cylinders can seize up or leak, clutch/TO bearing can fail. That's about the most of it really. Shifters are about the most common failure.

Auto - ballooned converters, broken input shafts (only when too much power applied), OD band failures, TV cable maladjustments, lack of fluid change/insufficient cooling in some cases), broken parts in the converter and/or one of the drums (not sure on that, not an auto expert).

You didn't ask which one was faster or which one we prefer so I'll leave that one alone.

If I were looking to buy an SC and didn't much care which one I bought, I'd probably look at how I drive it first - if you are in constant stop and go traffic, I would not want a 5spd for daily driving. If your driving is more open, then this wouldn't matter. The second thing I'd look at is how accurately can I determine the condition of the transmission prior to purchasing? An auto can be hard to tell. It might drive ok on the test drive and then crap out on the way home or your first day going to work. A 5spd is really easy to tell if it shifts right or not. If it shifts good, then it is. If it grinds, it's not (well other than reverse, that nearly always grinds anyway).
 
I know all about the MT82, and I would not reccomend anyone use that transmission. If I were looking at buying a 2011 Mustang, I would have to factor in the cost of a TR-6060 precisely because of those issues. I know people can make mistakes, miss shifts, etc., but that to me is part of the fun of drag racing, challenging yourself to do everything right. If all you have to do is go when the light turns green and keep your foot on the floor, then anyone could be in the driver's seat and come up with the same result, so to me that has removed all the enjoyment of driving. If you are building a drag car for competition, and it will never do anything other than go down a drag strip, then I can see using an automatic, but to me, if you want to enjoy the car, and enjoy the driving experience, then you need a manual trans.
 
Still give the nod, in my opinion to the auto. I think if there was a better alternative to the stock manual that easily bolted in place of the stock manual they would be as fast. But the records in this club show that the autos rules on the 1/4 and the manuals rule on the dyno. If you go to V6 power you will see the eact same thing. The fast guys are autos and the slow guys are manuals. I spent 1500 bucks for a used low mile Lentec auto. Sold my old AOD for 400 bucks. Bought a 9.5" converter for 500 bucks, so 1600 bucks for a consistent hard running auto. If we are talking a fairly stock SC than a manual would be fun. Nobody, in this club has spent the bucks to make a 10 second manual SC. Would be cool to see that though. I dont really count the turbo guys in this battle of autos vs Manuals (sorry Corey and Casey) Im sure both these guys will go into the 10s with manuals but than if your making 800 rwhp even a manual cant hold back a 10. The autos are there making almost half of that HP number. Im sure there are many manuals out there in diffrrent platforms running faster than autos but it just aint so, for now, on our platform

Ken
 
Still give the nod, in my opinion to the auto. I think if there was a better alternative to the stock manual that easily bolted in place of the stock manual they would be as fast. But the records in this club show that the autos rules on the 1/4 and the manuals rule on the dyno. If you go to V6 power you will see the eact same thing. The fast guys are autos and the slow guys are manuals. I spent 1500 bucks for a used low mile Lentec auto. Sold my old AOD for 400 bucks. Bought a 9.5" converter for 500 bucks, so 1600 bucks for a consistent hard running auto. If we are talking a fairly stock SC than a manual would be fun. Nobody, in this club has spent the bucks to make a 10 second manual SC. Would be cool to see that though. I dont really count the turbo guys in this battle of autos vs Manuals (sorry Corey and Casey) Im sure both these guys will go into the 10s with manuals but than if your making 800 rwhp even a manual cant hold back a 10. The autos are there making almost half of that HP number. Im sure there are many manuals out there in diffrrent platforms running faster than autos but it just aint so, for now, on our platform

Ken

Ken, are you trying to help the original poster or are you just arguing? If you want to argue......

- The cost for a rebuilt AOD with Lentech VB and 9.5" converter is about $2500. Cost for a freshly rebuilt 5spd, Centerforce clutch and Ripper Shifter is about $1350. That you bought yours used for $1600 is irrelevant. I bought a used, but freshly rebuilt 95 (holy grail of 5spds) transmission for $200. I sold my working old style for $150. I took a lightly used CF clutch that I got for free, added a new CF disc for $100, and a Ripper Shifter I got off Ebay for $100 and now I have exactly $250 in my premium 5spd setup.

- In 2003 I raced Kurt K at the 2003 SC Shootout, him with his CMSII engine and S-Port blower, me with my home built, stock bottom end motor and S-Port blower. I ran 12.66 to his 12.68, both at about 106mph as I recall. We raced again in 2004, this time the win going to Kurt, with just about exactly the same ET's. Both times as I recall I got Kurt off the line, then he pulled on me pretty good in 2nd, and I gained it back on the top end (almost). Point is, you can race door to door, auto and 5spd, with similar power levels and/or similar mods. As far as the whole 10 second thing goes, there are 4 people who have done that so far with an SC. That none of them has the balls to try it with a manual transmission is their own choice. No, I wouldn't probably be using an M5R2 at that point, but to imply that it can't be done is a little premature.

In any vehicle platform, as the car goes faster and faster it becomes more and more difficult to drive a manual which means it requires more skill and better parts. It's always easier to drive an auto, but if you really think that lining up against a manual transmission car is going to make for an easy win, that's just foolishness.
 
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