Can exhaust be to free flowing for these cars?

You are going to have a hard time getting me to agree that back pressure in an exhaust system is a good thing.

Outright, pure scavenging wastes energy in some examples, so don't be too quick to dismiss value.

One of the functions of headers and the collector is to harvest the pop from one cylinder when that exhaust cycle hits the atmosphere out of the tail pipe, where an echo ring travels backwards to help push wasted intake charges (during valve overlap) back into other cylinders. That is a good example of valuable back pressure.
 
It certainly is an interesting debate. As velocity increases pressure decreases. This is Bernoulis Law and also the principle on how a venturi tube operates. You can't have increases in velocity and increases in pressure. It doesn't operate that way. The faster you get the exhaust moving the faster the pressure drops. So you could say that the reverse would also hold true. As pressure increeases velocity decreases. Meaning if you have back pressure you are decreasing velocity.

You are going to have a hard time getting me to agree that back pressure in an exhaust system is a good thing.

Of course you need efficiency for the catalytic converters to operate properly, for the cylinders to get hot enough, for the EGR system to work properly, for the system to be quiet enough for the general public, etc. etc.

Of course you want velocity to increase especially at the point of the collector so that it creates a decrease in pressure which aides in removal of the exhaust gases. If the system has restriction then you are slowing down velocity which increases pressure.

The collector of a header behaves very similarly to the narrowest point of a venturi tube. IMO


BTW - I have been wrong before and I'll be wrong a number of times before I leave this earth but I am sticking to my guns on this one...............for now. LOL


Your statement is true, but the exhaust behaves different it actually behaves both ways I believe yes at High Rpm the lower the velocity the higher the pressure physics cannot be changed which hurts performance and that is why a Non back pressure system would benefit a High Rpm situation

However... at low RPMs the engine isnt producing the power lets throw made up numbers here at idle say 700rpm the engine wouldnt be pushing the gas at the same rate it would from 5000rpm
So at idle the engine would need the scavenging effect which would come from the smaller or better said correct sized piping to aid velocity at low mid rpms its not until the engines revs are high enough to where the engine is now Forcing the gas out which is what u mean by backpressure being bad and yes at that point back pressure would mean the engine to use power to push gas out instead of transfering that power to the wheels
So choose between almost No backpressure which is like open longtubes or full exhaust high rpm benefits or low end torque response

To make it shorter you are right partially as well as I am and yes back pressure is bad but back pressure will exist in an optimum exhaust system in order to keep the best of both worlds low end torque and high rpm power :)
 
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to clarify, a well balanced exhaust is essential for optimum performance.

But a well balanced exhaust is not particularly necessary for good or even great performance, only optimum performance.

Because the SC cars tend to have positive displacement blowers, they can get away with a much less efficient exhaust system and still see good performance. Now you can't have plugged converters and expect reasonable performance, but put a reasonable exhaust system on with reasonable mufflers and you will find that you can spend the rest of your money on something other than exhaust.

Switching to open exhaust would require re-tuning on a carb motor just like it requires re-tuning on an electronically controlled motor.

Yes seems like a mild SC would respond great to just ported manifolds no catz x pipe where the stock resonator was and choose ur favorite mufflers in place of stock ones stock Piping it will do just great that would be a cheap exhaust system mostly DIY kinda deal if u can weld

The bad thing about the stock system is the high psi 15-17 back pressure was over the positive displacement of the blower which most stock SCs do 12psi of boost
12psi vs 15psi just by seeing this its ovious the engine looses more power by fighting a greater back pressure I really wonder why ford restricted the SC so much when they could have beat European competition alot more as well as the corvette the first tbird back then was supoosed to be a race car then changed to luxury
Ford could have made best of both worlds with the SC

I Think ford knew this but they also knew that making a more suited exhaust for the SCs would smoke their pony cars and they didnt want that... lol guess they were afraid of sales
 
Your statement is true, but the exhaust behaves different it actually behaves both ways I believe yes at High Rpm the lower the velocity the higher the pressure physics cannot be changed which hurts performance and that is why a Non back pressure system would benefit a High Rpm situation

However... at low RPMs the engine isnt producing the power lets throw made up numbers here at idle say 700rpm the engine wouldnt be pushing the gas at the same rate it would from 5000rpm
So at idle the engine would need the scavenging effect which would come from the smaller or better said correct sized piping to aid velocity at low mid rpms its not until the engines revs are high enough to where the engine is now Forcing the gas out which is what u mean by backpressure being bad and yes at that point back pressure would mean the engine to use power to push gas out instead of transfering that power to the wheels
So choose between almost No backpressure which is like open longtubes or full exhaust high rpm benefits or low end torque response

To make it shorter you are right partially as well as I am and yes back pressure is bad but back pressure will exist in an optimum exhaust system in order to keep the best of both worlds low end torque and high rpm power :)


That's because Ford had their sights set on the BMW 5 series as well as Mercedes Benz. From the articles I read back in the day that was the target market. Yeah i am that old. LOL
 
That's because Ford had their sights set on the BMW 5 series as well as Mercedes Benz. From the articles I read back in the day that was the target market. Yeah i am that old. LOL

I bet they were trying to compere with all the IRS and the electronic suspension and all those luxury deals we have for our years

BUT they could have made a true example of how they could muscle up and outpower everyone by still having the most luxurious car with all the options avaliable u could think of :)

I believe the engineers owned mustangs -.- and were jealous lol
 
Backpressure is BAD, mmmkay...

The bad thing about the stock system is the high psi 15-17 back pressure was over the positive displacement of the blower which most stock SCs do 12psi of boost

Where are you getting this 15-17psi of back pressure in the exhaust number? I've never measured it on a stock SC, but that number has to be wrong. Ever drive a car with clogged cats? That sputtering and backfiring and complete loss of power is caused by about 4psi, so with 17psi the car would be a complete dog!

And since I'm responding to this thread, I'll throw my input in. Backpressure in the exhaust system is absolutely horrible under all circumstances in all internal combustion engines, whether gasoline or diesel, supercharged, turbocharged, or naturally aspirated. If your system is creating even half a psi of backpressure at any point in the rpm range, your car would make more horsepower at that same rpm with a freer flowing exhaust system. I can't even tell you how many times I have gone through this in multiple posts in multiple forums, but this backpressure myth still runs rampant on the internet, and it is a pet peeve of mine. Any backpressure is always a bad thing. People frequently confuse backpressure with velocity, but as 90sc35thann pointed out, the laws of physics tell us that it is the exact opposite. In a perfect setup, the perfect exhaust system would be under negative pressure, or vacuum at the rpm where the motor makes peak power. The vacuum will not only help suck the exhaust gases out, but also helps suck the intake charge into the cylinder during the cam overlap, which creates a greater pressure differential between the intake manifold and the cylinder, which fills it with more air and fuel. In case you were wondering, another device that creates a greater pressure differential between the intake manifold and the cylinder is...wait for it...a SUPERCHARGER! So a properly sized exhaust system will have a slight supercharging effect on the motor. The vacuum in the exhaust that creates this scavenging supercharging effect is created by the velocity of the exhaust gas heading towards the tail-pipe. The greater velocity, the less pressure or the more vacuum the engine sees at the exhaust valve, and the more power it makes. At lower rpms there is less exhaust gas to expel, so you don't have much velocity. At higher rpms with a smaller pipe, the exhaust can't flow fast enough and it backs up creating backpressure and eliminating scavenging. With a smaller exhaust system, scavenging occurs at lower rpms, but then immediately after that rpm it starts to become a restriction which creates back-pressure, which as I have said already is bad for power, so you would sacrifice a lot of power on the top end for a very small increase in power on the bottom end. It simply is not worth it. As you go larger with the exhaust system, you need more exhaust gas to fill the pipe so you reduce velocity at low rpms, which raises the point at which this peak vacuum occurs, and if you have sized the system correctly, your scavenging will peak at the same rpm as you make peak horsepower. So in effect the only way of saying a system is too large is if it doesn't see peak velocity until after the max rpm the engine will ever see. In that case, you would lose out on this scavenging effect, but considering how minimal the effect is, and how drastic the effect of a system that is too small, you are always better off erring on the side of too large, from a performance standpoint. In the real world, there are other concerns such as packaging, sound, drone, price, etc. and if you go with a smaller pipe because you want it to be quieter and the slight loss in power is worth it to you, then go for it, but if you are looking at it from a performance standpoint, better to go a little too big than a little too small. Oh, and just to reiterate, BACKPRESSURE IS ALWAYS BAD!
 
Where are you getting this 15-17psi of back pressure in the exhaust number? I've never measured it on a stock SC, but that number has to be wrong. Ever drive a car with clogged cats? That sputtering and backfiring and complete loss of power is caused by about 4psi, so with 17psi the car would be a complete dog!

And since I'm responding to this thread, I'll throw my input in. Backpressure in the exhaust system is absolutely horrible under all circumstances in all internal combustion engines, whether gasoline or diesel, supercharged, turbocharged, or naturally aspirated. If your system is creating even half a psi of backpressure at any point in the rpm range, your car would make more horsepower at that same rpm with a freer flowing exhaust system. I can't even tell you how many times I have gone through this in multiple posts in multiple forums, but this backpressure myth still runs rampant on the internet, and it is a pet peeve of mine. Any backpressure is always a bad thing. People frequently confuse backpressure with velocity, but as 90sc35thann pointed out, the laws of physics tell us that it is the exact opposite. In a perfect setup, the perfect exhaust system would be under negative pressure, or vacuum at the rpm where the motor makes peak power. The vacuum will not only help suck the exhaust gases out, but also helps suck the intake charge into the cylinder during the cam overlap, which creates a greater pressure differential between the intake manifold and the cylinder, which fills it with more air and fuel. In case you were wondering, another device that creates a greater pressure differential between the intake manifold and the cylinder is...wait for it...a SUPERCHARGER! So a properly sized exhaust system will have a slight supercharging effect on the motor. The vacuum in the exhaust that creates this scavenging supercharging effect is created by the velocity of the exhaust gas heading towards the tail-pipe. The greater velocity, the less pressure or the more vacuum the engine sees at the exhaust valve, and the more power it makes. At lower rpms there is less exhaust gas to expel, so you don't have much velocity. At higher rpms with a smaller pipe, the exhaust can't flow fast enough and it backs up creating backpressure and eliminating scavenging. With a smaller exhaust system, scavenging occurs at lower rpms, but then immediately after that rpm it starts to become a restriction which creates back-pressure, which as I have said already is bad for power, so you would sacrifice a lot of power on the top end for a very small increase in power on the bottom end. It simply is not worth it. As you go larger with the exhaust system, you need more exhaust gas to fill the pipe so you reduce velocity at low rpms, which raises the point at which this peak vacuum occurs, and if you have sized the system correctly, your scavenging will peak at the same rpm as you make peak horsepower. So in effect the only way of saying a system is too large is if it doesn't see peak velocity until after the max rpm the engine will ever see. In that case, you would lose out on this scavenging effect, but considering how minimal the effect is, and how drastic the effect of a system that is too small, you are always better off erring on the side of too large, from a performance standpoint. In the real world, there are other concerns such as packaging, sound, drone, price, etc. and if you go with a smaller pipe because you want it to be quieter and the slight loss in power is worth it to you, then go for it, but if you are looking at it from a performance standpoint, better to go a little too big than a little too small. Oh, and just to reiterate, BACKPRESSURE IS ALWAYS BAD!

Where im getting the back pressure reading is this article I posted above ... 15-17 because the condition of ctz clogged or not could make a difference too I believe
Now let me read the message got get out the rain first lol
http://www.sccoa.com/articles/cwexhaust.php and ive had a few people also tell me the back pressure tests they made on. Stock exhaust were similar
 
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Where are you getting this 15-17psi of back pressure in the exhaust number? I've never measured it on a stock SC, but that number has to be wrong. Ever drive a car with clogged cats? That sputtering and backfiring and complete loss of power is caused by about 4psi, so with 17psi the car would be a complete dog!

And since I'm responding to this thread, I'll throw my input in. Backpressure in the exhaust system is absolutely horrible under all circumstances in all internal combustion engines, whether gasoline or diesel, supercharged, turbocharged, or naturally aspirated. If your system is creating even half a psi of backpressure at any point in the rpm range, your car would make more horsepower at that same rpm with a freer flowing exhaust system. I can't even tell you how many times I have gone through this in multiple posts in multiple forums, but this backpressure myth still runs rampant on the internet, and it is a pet peeve of mine. Any backpressure is always a bad thing. People frequently confuse backpressure with velocity, but as 90sc35thann pointed out, the laws of physics tell us that it is the exact opposite. In a perfect setup, the perfect exhaust system would be under negative pressure, or vacuum at the rpm where the motor makes peak power. The vacuum will not only help suck the exhaust gases out, but also helps suck the intake charge into the cylinder during the cam overlap, which creates a greater pressure differential between the intake manifold and the cylinder, which fills it with more air and fuel. In case you were wondering, another device that creates a greater pressure differential between the intake manifold and the cylinder is...wait for it...a SUPERCHARGER! So a properly sized exhaust system will have a slight supercharging effect on the motor. The vacuum in the exhaust that creates this scavenging supercharging effect is created by the velocity of the exhaust gas heading towards the tail-pipe. The greater velocity, the less pressure or the more vacuum the engine sees at the exhaust valve, and the more power it makes. At lower rpms there is less exhaust gas to expel, so you don't have much velocity. At higher rpms with a smaller pipe, the exhaust can't flow fast enough and it backs up creating backpressure and eliminating scavenging. With a smaller exhaust system, scavenging occurs at lower rpms, but then immediately after that rpm it starts to become a restriction which creates back-pressure, which as I have said already is bad for power, so you would sacrifice a lot of power on the top end for a very small increase in power on the bottom end. It simply is not worth it. As you go larger with the exhaust system, you need more exhaust gas to fill the pipe so you reduce velocity at low rpms, which raises the point at which this peak vacuum occurs, and if you have sized the system correctly, your scavenging will peak at the same rpm as you make peak horsepower. So in effect the only way of saying a system is too large is if it doesn't see peak velocity until after the max rpm the engine will ever see. In that case, you would lose out on this scavenging effect, but considering how minimal the effect is, and how drastic the effect of a system that is too small, you are always better off erring on the side of too large, from a performance standpoint. In the real world, there are other concerns such as packaging, sound, drone, price, etc. and if you go with a smaller pipe because you want it to be quieter and the slight loss in power is worth it to you, then go for it, but if you are looking at it from a performance standpoint, better to go a little too big than a little too small. Oh, and just to reiterate, BACKPRESSURE IS ALWAYS BAD!

Again Im not saying its good but there will be some back pressure in the exhaust system
Yes smaller pipe bigger velocity of gas flow on low rpms higher back pressure at High rpms because the engine is producing more gas that doesnt fit on the smaller volume pipe so it is wasting power to push it out


Bigger pipe more volume so at high rpms there is less back pressure but u lose ur low end torque because raising pipe diameter decreases velocity!
At 700 rpm the engine pushes gas at say 50cfm these are made up example numbers
So on a 2.5 pipe that would have xx velocity
Now say u get 3.5 pipe ok at 700 rpm the engine STILL is pushing gas at 50cfm nothing changed however
The 3.5 pipe has way more volume and the velocity will be lower than the 2.5

7000rpm a 2.5" pipe will be genersting say 3psi of backpressure
At 7000rpm 3.5 will make .5psi back pressure

So yes I know at high rpm the bigger pipe benefits the high rpm in getting the exhaust gas out quicker since gas is going at say 250cfm now the bigger pipe will get it out quicker and not cause a fraction of pressure compsred to the smaller pipe

So the whole point here is
The engine will have some back pressure to work better on low rpm
Yet a properly sized exhaust that still mskes the decent power on the high rpm while generating as little backpressure possible

Now if back pressure is so bad show me an exhaust set up that is 0psi back pressure ?
Mufflers x pipes x pipes catz manifolds headers collectors Bendz on the pipes will all account for a bit of back pressure
Which means that no matter how much u wamt a true no backpressure exhaust u will have some if u have a correct sized exhaust
Again going too big will hurt performance and if it had been a myth then why when someone goes 3.5 exhaust or 3 duals on their 150hp lose power and response ? Because everything has to work together I believe

Its not a myth
And physics also state by law that a bigger diameter pipe will have in fact more volume we know that
Which will mean less restriction backpressure at high rpm

So of that has less backpressure why then will that hurt performance ? ? ? ...

U want to have the right size pipe that maintains low end torque will keeping as little backpressure as possible that is my belief yet u will have backpressure one way or the other ...
 
Just a little side note. The supercoupe was first being developed to beat the grand national, but after gm decided to kill the grand national because of chevy whining about the corvette then ford set its sights on the european market. The supercoupe was actually supposed to be twin turbo, solid axle car. So ford then changed to handling, and supercharging the car to chase bmw, but also choked it to death because they didn't want to embarrass their poster boy the mustang.
 
Interesting. I had read an article that the MN12 was to be an IRS from the beginning and the lead engineer got fired/left shortler after release because he insisted the car stay IRS much to the shagrin of the Ford exec's and when the car came in over weight and over budget he left. I think the car came in $386 dollars over budget per unit as I recall and about 400 pounds too heavy.
 
Interesting stuff to hear
Maybe if ford made the tbird its luxury track car at those years it could still be in production today maybe ?
 
Just a little side note. The supercoupe was first being developed to beat the grand national, but after gm decided to kill the grand national because of chevy whining about the corvette then ford set its sights on the european market. The supercoupe was actually supposed to be twin turbo, solid axle car. So ford then changed to handling, and supercharging the car to chase bmw, but also choked it to death because they didn't want to embarrass their poster boy the mustang.

Just curious where you heard that the Super Coupe was originally being designed to compete with the Grand National.
 
Yes seems like a mild SC would respond great to just

Stock exhaust makes a number of compromises. new down tubes, better cats, free-er flowing and reworked resonator clean up nearly all of the bad ones.

The numbers found in that article really can't be used to get specific, but they work well at showing the relative improvement that can be found with cleaning up the stock exhaust.

overall the exhaust tuning is much more than backpressure and how little or much you have. Specifically on our motors, but even on motors in general. Attempting to boiling it down to a simple statement simply is not possible.

one point to keep in mind. pressure doesn't push. vacuums pull and gases move from high to low pressure.

As XR7 Dave stated
It's too complex to really get into here, but the article above is a very good start.
 
Here's my $.02.

Exhaust has X amount of energy in it. That energy is used to A fill the exhaust tube and B move through the tube. As RPM increases the energy X increases.

Ideally all gases expand uniformly but as a fluid they expand to fill their container (the tube).

So at low RPM there is not a lot of energy available to fill a large diameter tube and not move through the tube. This is why too large off a pipe hurts torque.

This all assume distance stays the same.

Hot and tired if doesn't make sense.
 
Here's my $.02.

Exhaust has X amount of energy in it. That energy is used to A fill the exhaust tube and B move through the tube. As RPM increases the energy X increases.

Ideally all gases expand uniformly but as a fluid they expand to fill their container (the tube).

So at low RPM there is not a lot of energy available to fill a large diameter tube and not move through the tube. This is why too large off a pipe hurts torque.

This all assume distance stays the same.

Hot and tired if doesn't make sense.

+1 !!!


Thats what im trying to get across
The right piping

As for the backpressure this will go on and on :D
 
Here's my $.02.

Exhaust has X amount of energy in it. That energy is used to A fill the exhaust tube and B move through the tube. As RPM increases the energy X increases.

Ideally all gases expand uniformly but as a fluid they expand to fill their container (the tube).

So at low RPM there is not a lot of energy available to fill a large diameter tube and not move through the tube. This is why too large off a pipe hurts torque.

This all assume distance stays the same.

Hot and tired if doesn't make sense.

+1 !!!


Thats what im trying to get across
The right piping

As for the backpressure this will go on and on :D

yeah, a lot of reading. Posted this last night and hop back on to see If anyone has said anything yet and I have 3 pages of replies lol

So I think im going to put exhaust on it anyways and see what it does. I think with the stock heads and cam having pretty much no restriction could hurt my 1000-3500 rpm performance. Maybe, we will see. Gunna run the singe 3 out behind the diff and then make a y pipe and then 2 90 degree bends into flowmasters and then out.
 
Are you sure those rotors are timed correctly and that your outlet isn't over ported on your blower? I know you were having issues earlier on
 
yeah, a lot of reading. Posted this last night and hop back on to see If anyone has said anything yet and I have 3 pages of replies lol

So I think im going to put exhaust on it anyways and see what it does. I think with the stock heads and cam having pretty much no restriction could hurt my 1000-3500 rpm performance. Maybe, we will see. Gunna run the singe 3 out behind the diff and then make a y pipe and then 2 90 degree bends into flowmasters and then out.

That will work man :)

Heres a pull on no mufflers
Just catlezz 2.5 downpipes to a magna res
ANd 3" pipe out back to where the irs is at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVmaQ7Ltoxs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

And here same set up plus Y pipe dual 2.5 borlas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEw9BfAQNGM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Just the first run rest of video is mostly a cruise

Theres alot on this topic but to ur original question u dont need to upgrade ur exhaust mufflers are a preference I couodnt stand the noise on mine without them
 
I have long suspected that the reason that little wives tale about back pressure was originally propagated was to sell cheap mufflers for a nice profit.

I think we where fooled.
 
ok to prove that physics can be tricky... in an exhaust system

It certainly is an interesting debate. As velocity increases pressure decreases. This is Bernoulis Law and also the principle on how a venturi tube operates. You can't have increases in velocity and increases in pressure. It doesn't operate that way. The faster you get the exhaust moving the faster the pressure drops. So you could say that the reverse would also hold true. As pressure increeases velocity decreases. Meaning if you have back pressure you are decreasing velocity.



People frequently confuse backpressure with velocity, but as 90sc35thann pointed out, the laws of physics tell us that it is the exact opposite.


The greater velocity, the less pressure


Ok Here I made some simulations of velocity to prove my point that smaller diameter pipe has more velocity than bigger pipe

As velocity increases back pressure does NOT decrease

The bigger the pipe the less back pressure the less velocity at which the gas flows (pros high rpm cons low rpm)

The smaller the pipe the higher velocity the higher bsckpressure (pros low rpm cons high rpm)

Moral off the story an in between set up that benefits both low and high rpm range is best (and yes there will be some back pressure) not 10 or 15psi but maybe 1-3psi which is a huge difference ad by all means more than 3 times less restrictive than the stock set up


As u can see on pics the comparison was 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, and 4" pipe

THE velocity Decreased as the diameter of pipe increased...
But the smaller the pipe in an exhaust the more back pressure it creates...
 
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