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Thread: HP guesses in the new year.....

  1. #91
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    59
    There is no comparison between a roots blower at 17psi and a 62mm turbo at 17psi. The turbo is going to move more air. I've got logs showing a 62mm a 16-18psi and max maf ad counts were 820's, load 160. Switched to an s366 and 870/190. So the 66mm was moving more air as it showed in fuel trims and mph at the strip.

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Posts
    550
    i didn't mean to derail the thread... It is an interesting discussion about octane limits. something I was not all that familiar with, but something one must consider in deciding what they want out of their car.
    Any idiot can make a Mustang fast...
    It takes a special idiot to make a Thunderbird fast!!!
    89 SC 4.3 stroker 384rwhp 473ftlbs
    Best ET 13.085 Best MPH 106.6... got some work to do!
    2016 V6 M90 Dyno Champ 2016 Mod 1 Runner Up

  3. #93
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Madison, Ohio
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    17,426
    Quote Originally Posted by dthompson View Post
    i didn't mean to derail the thread... It is an interesting discussion about octane limits. something I was not all that familiar with, but something one must consider in deciding what they want out of their car.
    I understand. Everyone has their own set of concerns and interests based on their unique situation which is a combination of their mods and their expectations. However, I think the thing that has been skirted around like the proverbial elephant in the room, is that we are all looking for ways to make our cars more fun.

    A car is no fun if the power band isn't where you can use it, or if the boost range is inaccessible due to cylinder pressure or rpm, etc. From my perspective, and since I do not have the luxury of owning just one project car, I can take this back to 2001 when I had a well modded M90 based car. It made 12-13psi and I ran 12.5's with it under ideal conditions. That car was as fast as most of the cars you guys are driving now so I guess I should have been happy. But the two things that bothered me most about it was that the power band started at 3000rpm and petered off from there. Guys that's not fun, I don't care how fast it is. If you can't feel the power band, then it just takes the thrill out. I was used to higher HP NA engines that have a definite power band that you can feel come in with rpm. My car didn't have that.

    The other thing that my M90 car had was ridiculous wheel hop. The torque comes in so fast and so hard that the 5spd was murder to try and put the power down. I literally broke two axles at the same time on the track. When I switched to the AR I found that the car wheel hopped less. It made about 80rwhp more, but it hopped less. The car also developed a bit of a power band. It was a strange sensation to be able to hook the tires in 3rd and then feel them start to spin again as it hit about 4800-5000rpm. This reminded me more of my old NA big block days. So it was fun.

    So why bother looking at turbo's? Well things change. Technology improves, things become readily available that weren't a few years ago, information is much more readily available, it's just different today.

    I considered doing turbos instead of the AR's back in 2003 when I started all this. But information was scarce and frankly it just didn't seem viable as there were too many unknowns. Not to mention the angst among SC owners at the time against anything not M90. It was just to big of a step, and furthermore, it wasn't necessary. When a 2003 Cobra made 360rwhp, making 400rwhp was enough to turn heads. Of course we all know what 400rwhp will do for you in 2017. No one could have predicted that we'd have bone stock Mustangs making 400rwhp. Things change.

    For now we are looking at a new model of how to make a turbo work best for an SC. We have started out with a small turbo on a mild engine so that someone buying a car or starting to mod it now can have an idea of how changing over to a turbo now before spending a lot of money on a supercharger, can benefit them. Absolutely we know how to make big power with turbo, that has never been a question. The question has always been, how can we make that practical or achievable for a beginner or for someone with milder expectations. We have started there with this kit.

    So far I can tell you a few things - first of all, wheel hop is almost completely eliminated. Now even a 5spd car builds torque smoothly like an auto rather than violently like we are all used to. Second, the engine now has an amazing power band. It's not that the turbo creates this power band more than it actually "releases" it. No longer does the motor act like it has a brake being gradually applied with rpm. The engine simply runs the rpm band it was designed to operate in. Well, and plus a little. That's fun.

    Which brings me to the fun factor. Take the wheel hop down a notch - or 2 - and take the power band up a notch - or 2 - and that's where the fun factor is. It takes a lot more doing to properly match a hot side with the airflow and boost you want to run for any particular given application, but the results are worth it. It's not a "one size fits all" deal because the needs of a 9000rpm 1.6L engine are quite different from a 5000rpm 3.8L even if the HP outputs are the same. A turbo that works great on the 1.6 will be a mismatch on the 3.8. It's not like the supercharger world where for the most part bigger is better.

    All that aside, people just want to know "how much power can I make and how much will it cost". HP/$$. Well I'm not going to have that discussion with you. Physics and science don't step aside just so that the SC world can languish. The science is proven and the fact is you can't make more power any other way, so this is the way we are going. We'll figure out what works best for us and maximize our results. If you are passionate about your SC then most likely this will be part of your future. SCUI has I think 5 supercharger kits on pre-order at the moment but after that we won't be making any more.

    It's time to embrace the future, and the future includes a turbo and E85. You will always be able to make more power on pump gas with a turbo than you can with a Supercharger, most likely in the neighborhood of 50-80rwhp, but the real power lies in the ability to run 20-25psi if you really want to, whether it's on race fuel or E85. It's frankly more fun than a supercharger. Especially on the street and particularly at lower boost levels where most of you spend 99% of your time. All the fast kids will be doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  4. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    830
    Some good words, Dave.
    Last edited by 1FSTBRD; 02-18-2017 at 11:09 AM.

  5. #95
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Paoli Indiana
    Posts
    4,335
    Quote Originally Posted by XR7 Dave View Post
    I understand. Everyone has their own set of concerns and interests based on their unique situation which is a combination of their mods and their expectations. However, I think the thing that has been skirted around like the proverbial elephant in the room, is that we are all looking for ways to make our cars more fun.

    A car is no fun if the power band isn't where you can use it, or if the boost range is inaccessible due to cylinder pressure or rpm, etc. From my perspective, and since I do not have the luxury of owning just one project car, I can take this back to 2001 when I had a well modded M90 based car. It made 12-13psi and I ran 12.5's with it under ideal conditions. That car was as fast as most of the cars you guys are driving now so I guess I should have been happy. But the two things that bothered me most about it was that the power band started at 3000rpm and petered off from there. Guys that's not fun, I don't care how fast it is. If you can't feel the power band, then it just takes the thrill out. I was used to higher HP NA engines that have a definite power band that you can feel come in with rpm. My car didn't have that.

    The other thing that my M90 car had was ridiculous wheel hop. The torque comes in so fast and so hard that the 5spd was murder to try and put the power down. I literally broke two axles at the same time on the track. When I switched to the AR I found that the car wheel hopped less. It made about 80rwhp more, but it hopped less. The car also developed a bit of a power band. It was a strange sensation to be able to hook the tires in 3rd and then feel them start to spin again as it hit about 4800-5000rpm. This reminded me more of my old NA big block days. So it was fun.

    So why bother looking at turbo's? Well things change. Technology improves, things become readily available that weren't a few years ago, information is much more readily available, it's just different today.

    I considered doing turbos instead of the AR's back in 2003 when I started all this. But information was scarce and frankly it just didn't seem viable as there were too many unknowns. Not to mention the angst among SC owners at the time against anything not M90. It was just to big of a step, and furthermore, it wasn't necessary. When a 2003 Cobra made 360rwhp, making 400rwhp was enough to turn heads. Of course we all know what 400rwhp will do for you in 2017. No one could have predicted that we'd have bone stock Mustangs making 400rwhp. Things change.

    For now we are looking at a new model of how to make a turbo work best for an SC. We have started out with a small turbo on a mild engine so that someone buying a car or starting to mod it now can have an idea of how changing over to a turbo now before spending a lot of money on a supercharger, can benefit them. Absolutely we know how to make big power with turbo, that has never been a question. The question has always been, how can we make that practical or achievable for a beginner or for someone with milder expectations. We have started there with this kit.

    So far I can tell you a few things - first of all, wheel hop is almost completely eliminated. Now even a 5spd car builds torque smoothly like an auto rather than violently like we are all used to. Second, the engine now has an amazing power band. It's not that the turbo creates this power band more than it actually "releases" it. No longer does the motor act like it has a brake being gradually applied with rpm. The engine simply runs the rpm band it was designed to operate in. Well, and plus a little. That's fun.

    Which brings me to the fun factor. Take the wheel hop down a notch - or 2 - and take the power band up a notch - or 2 - and that's where the fun factor is. It takes a lot more doing to properly match a hot side with the airflow and boost you want to run for any particular given application, but the results are worth it. It's not a "one size fits all" deal because the needs of a 9000rpm 1.6L engine are quite different from a 5000rpm 3.8L even if the HP outputs are the same. A turbo that works great on the 1.6 will be a mismatch on the 3.8. It's not like the supercharger world where for the most part bigger is better.

    All that aside, people just want to know "how much power can I make and how much will it cost". HP/$$. Well I'm not going to have that discussion with you. Physics and science don't step aside just so that the SC world can languish. The science is proven and the fact is you can't make more power any other way, so this is the way we are going. We'll figure out what works best for us and maximize our results. If you are passionate about your SC then most likely this will be part of your future. SCUI has I think 5 supercharger kits on pre-order at the moment but after that we won't be making any more.

    It's time to embrace the future, and the future includes a turbo and E85. You will always be able to make more power on pump gas with a turbo than you can with a Supercharger, most likely in the neighborhood of 50-80rwhp, but the real power lies in the ability to run 20-25psi if you really want to, whether it's on race fuel or E85. It's frankly more fun than a supercharger. Especially on the street and particularly at lower boost levels where most of you spend 99% of your time. All the fast kids will be doing it.

    So when will you start producing a viable turbo kit? Or at least a hotside? I love the powerband of my ecoboost it really growson you! I am to the point where I feel like I have hit a 15psi road block with an m90.
    93 SC Red Auto 111k
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    Coming soon 11.xxx

  6. #96
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    103
    Thanks for all of the great information. Clean slate on my seized motor 95.
    Will be following this.
    Creighton
    Last edited by Creighton; Yesterday at 05:14 PM.

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