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Thread: HP guesses in the new year.....

  1. #91
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    May 2015
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    There is no comparison between a roots blower at 17psi and a 62mm turbo at 17psi. The turbo is going to move more air. I've got logs showing a 62mm a 16-18psi and max maf ad counts were 820's, load 160. Switched to an s366 and 870/190. So the 66mm was moving more air as it showed in fuel trims and mph at the strip.

  2. #92
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    i didn't mean to derail the thread... It is an interesting discussion about octane limits. something I was not all that familiar with, but something one must consider in deciding what they want out of their car.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by dthompson View Post
    i didn't mean to derail the thread... It is an interesting discussion about octane limits. something I was not all that familiar with, but something one must consider in deciding what they want out of their car.
    I understand. Everyone has their own set of concerns and interests based on their unique situation which is a combination of their mods and their expectations. However, I think the thing that has been skirted around like the proverbial elephant in the room, is that we are all looking for ways to make our cars more fun.

    A car is no fun if the power band isn't where you can use it, or if the boost range is inaccessible due to cylinder pressure or rpm, etc. From my perspective, and since I do not have the luxury of owning just one project car, I can take this back to 2001 when I had a well modded M90 based car. It made 12-13psi and I ran 12.5's with it under ideal conditions. That car was as fast as most of the cars you guys are driving now so I guess I should have been happy. But the two things that bothered me most about it was that the power band started at 3000rpm and petered off from there. Guys that's not fun, I don't care how fast it is. If you can't feel the power band, then it just takes the thrill out. I was used to higher HP NA engines that have a definite power band that you can feel come in with rpm. My car didn't have that.

    The other thing that my M90 car had was ridiculous wheel hop. The torque comes in so fast and so hard that the 5spd was murder to try and put the power down. I literally broke two axles at the same time on the track. When I switched to the AR I found that the car wheel hopped less. It made about 80rwhp more, but it hopped less. The car also developed a bit of a power band. It was a strange sensation to be able to hook the tires in 3rd and then feel them start to spin again as it hit about 4800-5000rpm. This reminded me more of my old NA big block days. So it was fun.

    So why bother looking at turbo's? Well things change. Technology improves, things become readily available that weren't a few years ago, information is much more readily available, it's just different today.

    I considered doing turbos instead of the AR's back in 2003 when I started all this. But information was scarce and frankly it just didn't seem viable as there were too many unknowns. Not to mention the angst among SC owners at the time against anything not M90. It was just to big of a step, and furthermore, it wasn't necessary. When a 2003 Cobra made 360rwhp, making 400rwhp was enough to turn heads. Of course we all know what 400rwhp will do for you in 2017. No one could have predicted that we'd have bone stock Mustangs making 400rwhp. Things change.

    For now we are looking at a new model of how to make a turbo work best for an SC. We have started out with a small turbo on a mild engine so that someone buying a car or starting to mod it now can have an idea of how changing over to a turbo now before spending a lot of money on a supercharger, can benefit them. Absolutely we know how to make big power with turbo, that has never been a question. The question has always been, how can we make that practical or achievable for a beginner or for someone with milder expectations. We have started there with this kit.

    So far I can tell you a few things - first of all, wheel hop is almost completely eliminated. Now even a 5spd car builds torque smoothly like an auto rather than violently like we are all used to. Second, the engine now has an amazing power band. It's not that the turbo creates this power band more than it actually "releases" it. No longer does the motor act like it has a brake being gradually applied with rpm. The engine simply runs the rpm band it was designed to operate in. Well, and plus a little. That's fun.

    Which brings me to the fun factor. Take the wheel hop down a notch - or 2 - and take the power band up a notch - or 2 - and that's where the fun factor is. It takes a lot more doing to properly match a hot side with the airflow and boost you want to run for any particular given application, but the results are worth it. It's not a "one size fits all" deal because the needs of a 9000rpm 1.6L engine are quite different from a 5000rpm 3.8L even if the HP outputs are the same. A turbo that works great on the 1.6 will be a mismatch on the 3.8. It's not like the supercharger world where for the most part bigger is better.

    All that aside, people just want to know "how much power can I make and how much will it cost". HP/$$. Well I'm not going to have that discussion with you. Physics and science don't step aside just so that the SC world can languish. The science is proven and the fact is you can't make more power any other way, so this is the way we are going. We'll figure out what works best for us and maximize our results. If you are passionate about your SC then most likely this will be part of your future. SCUI has I think 5 supercharger kits on pre-order at the moment but after that we won't be making any more.

    It's time to embrace the future, and the future includes a turbo and E85. You will always be able to make more power on pump gas with a turbo than you can with a Supercharger, most likely in the neighborhood of 50-80rwhp, but the real power lies in the ability to run 20-25psi if you really want to, whether it's on race fuel or E85. It's frankly more fun than a supercharger. Especially on the street and particularly at lower boost levels where most of you spend 99% of your time. All the fast kids will be doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  4. #94
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    Some good words, Dave.
    Last edited by 1FSTBRD; 02-18-2017 at 11:09 AM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by XR7 Dave View Post
    I understand. Everyone has their own set of concerns and interests based on their unique situation which is a combination of their mods and their expectations. However, I think the thing that has been skirted around like the proverbial elephant in the room, is that we are all looking for ways to make our cars more fun.

    A car is no fun if the power band isn't where you can use it, or if the boost range is inaccessible due to cylinder pressure or rpm, etc. From my perspective, and since I do not have the luxury of owning just one project car, I can take this back to 2001 when I had a well modded M90 based car. It made 12-13psi and I ran 12.5's with it under ideal conditions. That car was as fast as most of the cars you guys are driving now so I guess I should have been happy. But the two things that bothered me most about it was that the power band started at 3000rpm and petered off from there. Guys that's not fun, I don't care how fast it is. If you can't feel the power band, then it just takes the thrill out. I was used to higher HP NA engines that have a definite power band that you can feel come in with rpm. My car didn't have that.

    The other thing that my M90 car had was ridiculous wheel hop. The torque comes in so fast and so hard that the 5spd was murder to try and put the power down. I literally broke two axles at the same time on the track. When I switched to the AR I found that the car wheel hopped less. It made about 80rwhp more, but it hopped less. The car also developed a bit of a power band. It was a strange sensation to be able to hook the tires in 3rd and then feel them start to spin again as it hit about 4800-5000rpm. This reminded me more of my old NA big block days. So it was fun.

    So why bother looking at turbo's? Well things change. Technology improves, things become readily available that weren't a few years ago, information is much more readily available, it's just different today.

    I considered doing turbos instead of the AR's back in 2003 when I started all this. But information was scarce and frankly it just didn't seem viable as there were too many unknowns. Not to mention the angst among SC owners at the time against anything not M90. It was just to big of a step, and furthermore, it wasn't necessary. When a 2003 Cobra made 360rwhp, making 400rwhp was enough to turn heads. Of course we all know what 400rwhp will do for you in 2017. No one could have predicted that we'd have bone stock Mustangs making 400rwhp. Things change.

    For now we are looking at a new model of how to make a turbo work best for an SC. We have started out with a small turbo on a mild engine so that someone buying a car or starting to mod it now can have an idea of how changing over to a turbo now before spending a lot of money on a supercharger, can benefit them. Absolutely we know how to make big power with turbo, that has never been a question. The question has always been, how can we make that practical or achievable for a beginner or for someone with milder expectations. We have started there with this kit.

    So far I can tell you a few things - first of all, wheel hop is almost completely eliminated. Now even a 5spd car builds torque smoothly like an auto rather than violently like we are all used to. Second, the engine now has an amazing power band. It's not that the turbo creates this power band more than it actually "releases" it. No longer does the motor act like it has a brake being gradually applied with rpm. The engine simply runs the rpm band it was designed to operate in. Well, and plus a little. That's fun.

    Which brings me to the fun factor. Take the wheel hop down a notch - or 2 - and take the power band up a notch - or 2 - and that's where the fun factor is. It takes a lot more doing to properly match a hot side with the airflow and boost you want to run for any particular given application, but the results are worth it. It's not a "one size fits all" deal because the needs of a 9000rpm 1.6L engine are quite different from a 5000rpm 3.8L even if the HP outputs are the same. A turbo that works great on the 1.6 will be a mismatch on the 3.8. It's not like the supercharger world where for the most part bigger is better.

    All that aside, people just want to know "how much power can I make and how much will it cost". HP/$$. Well I'm not going to have that discussion with you. Physics and science don't step aside just so that the SC world can languish. The science is proven and the fact is you can't make more power any other way, so this is the way we are going. We'll figure out what works best for us and maximize our results. If you are passionate about your SC then most likely this will be part of your future. SCUI has I think 5 supercharger kits on pre-order at the moment but after that we won't be making any more.

    It's time to embrace the future, and the future includes a turbo and E85. You will always be able to make more power on pump gas with a turbo than you can with a Supercharger, most likely in the neighborhood of 50-80rwhp, but the real power lies in the ability to run 20-25psi if you really want to, whether it's on race fuel or E85. It's frankly more fun than a supercharger. Especially on the street and particularly at lower boost levels where most of you spend 99% of your time. All the fast kids will be doing it.

    So when will you start producing a viable turbo kit? Or at least a hotside? I love the powerband of my ecoboost it really growson you! I am to the point where I feel like I have hit a 15psi road block with an m90.
    93 SC Red Aod 4.2/2.3lwhipple 422rwhp 11.360
    2013 Shootout Bracket ET First Place
    2015 Shootout Car Show Honerable Mention
    2016 Shootout Mod-1 First Place
    2018 Shootout Pro Street Runner Up
    Coming soon new motor 2300 TVS etc..
    90 35th aod stock, 90 5 speed Bolton Build in progress

  6. #96
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    Thanks for all of the great information. Clean slate on my seized motor 95.
    Will be following this.
    Creighton
    Last edited by Creighton; 02-19-2017 at 05:14 PM.

  7. #97
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    Dave puts it into perspective about progressing a community. Of course, you can get a 3.4 Whipple and put it on there, and I'd love for someone to do that. Then you're talking about hood clearance issues and modifying a section of a firewall. Turbo is just a more concise package that has great capabilities and street manners.

    Of course it depends on what your requirements and goals are. To each their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenewagner View Post
    So everything you say makes sense, which is what I would expect from you. Is there a formula for other grades of fuel. I am running only 100 octane unlead at this time. What would be the HP limit on that. I know timing and other factors apply, just a rough guess
    Not to change the momentum of Dave's post:

    I'm not aware of a formula; but there's plenty of people out there that run the same fuel to get an experimental estimation. E85 pump will let you run around 1000whp in a 6 cylinder. Probably more, but i'm not comfortable doing more with a 6 cylinder. Race E85 or E99 can make much more. For 100 octane gas, I'm not sure what its limit would be. I think 100 octane would only be enough to feel comfortable making 450-500whp using a turbo. I wouldn't use it as a way to make much more power than 93. Someone would need to put EGT on all cylinders to be able to see how much power you can safely make. Nobody really does that around here, so headgaskets/bearings are what tells the story, which is slow feedback.

    You have to be careful when thinking octane. There are other factors than octane that are to be considered in the capability of a fuel. Latent heat of vaporization, distillation end points, and octane are just some of the factors to consider. To simplify a way of thinking, a fuel becomes dangerous to an engine whenever cylinder temperatures start to rise to the point of detonation. Some fuels have low temperature distillation end points and the enthalpy of vaporization is low, which keeps cylinder temperatures lower. Octane compounds with their effect by allowing the fuel to burn slower. E85 (or alcohols for that matter) are great for lowering risk of detonation because they burn much cooler than gas. Gas needs a lot of octane because the atomization does not have as much cooling effect as alcohols. E85 is around 105 octane and it burns cooler than gas.

    Double Whammy
    1994 SC
    4.5L Twin Turbo SVO
    Project GTFD

  8. #98
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    May 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMac89 View Post



    For 100 octane gas, I'm not sure what its limit would be. I think 100 octane would only be enough to feel comfortable making 450-500whp using a turbo. I wouldn't use it as a way to make much more power than 93. Someone would need to put EGT on all cylinders to be able to see how much power you can safely make. Nobody really does that around here, so headgaskets/bearings are what tells the story, which is slow feedback.
    You and corey have made big turbo HP. What fuel are or were running, E85? I can get 110 but its leaded and would foul my O2 sensors. E 85 is everywhere here in Omaha. I am running 80lb injectors now but don't know if that would be enough to run E85 to run well into the 500 range. That and a whole new tune. E85 would be a lot cheaper than what Im doing now. A lot to think about

    Ken

    93 SC Whipple powered 11.648 @ 119.6
    Twin Turbo, air intercooled..yet to see

  9. #99
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    Apr 2002
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    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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    3,501

    time to add something here..

    years ago I took a brand new nos engine and added a bunch of stuff to it.. I had the best of the best and had it tuned. that thing was a rocket ship. Even when Dave D tuned it he was surprised by how everything worked together and how much power it made.. Then one day it went BOOM and I do mean BOOM.. I guess this was a simple case of over riding the gas that was in this car as has been talked about here.. I do beleive that there is a lot of truth to the over killing of pump gas in these cars... Just had to say something on that matter....Rich
    Too many cars,too little time to drive them. Anything less than 500 cubes is a small block. If you slow down in life you will get run over..

  10. #100
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    Feb 2014
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    840
    I know that this is a turbo NA split port discussion, but as someone that has beefed up their NA 3.8 split port Mustang (higher compression custom ported heads, cam, tune, 4.10's etc etc), I can say that they're capable of being pretty badass. What I like about the stock Ford split ports is the multi-angle valve job.....it's really effective. I flow tested them with a crude vacuum setup, and the exhaust ports, there's this ridge right beneath the valve port that directs lower lift air from a slow moving area of the valve out the sides, and speeds it up around to the exhaust port exit side. I had a spare pair of heads that someone had removed that ridge, and with a string/ vacuum test, it lost that velocity. It was interesting to do a few tests and try a few different things and then see what worked the best.

  11. #101
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    Feb 2014
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    ....Forgot to mention, way to go Dave! 350 hp out of the stock lower end (from what I can tell?) with a turbo is amazing. I believe that the most that I can remember the Procharged/ cam/ intake/ 4.2 stroker/ forged bottom end split port intake guys were getting was around 375 rwhp.

  12. #102
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    May 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1FSTBRD View Post
    ....Forgot to mention, way to go Dave! 350 hp out of the stock lower end (from what I can tell?) with a turbo is amazing. I believe that the most that I can remember the Procharged/ cam/ intake/ 4.2 stroker/ forged bottom end split port intake guys were getting was around 375 rwhp.
    This was the best I got out of my stock mustang engine with procharger. Looking back at that af I'm surprised it lived! I believe with a healthy tune it could of made 390-400rwhp. I was fighting the returnless fuel system back then also.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by 20psiofevil; 02-22-2017 at 08:32 PM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20psiofevil View Post
    This was the best I got out of my stock mustang engine with procharger. Looking back at that af I'm surprised it lived! I believe with a healthy tune it could of made 390-400rwhp. I was fighting the returnless fuel system back then also.
    Stock? Wow. That's awesome! The bottom end on the 3.8's is much more durable than it gets credit for. On the Mustang forums, 275-300 ish rwhp was the commonly advised power level not to exceed with a Procharger setup running 7-8 or so PSI in stock form, but I don't know if anyone had actually ran their particular setup higher than that to test it out. Clearly you had, so it's good to see that someone had rolled the dice.

    Does anyone know the real limit to the stock bottom end on the 3.8's? As in turned up the boost until it physically blew? Obviously the M90 would create lots of heat, but I'd be interested in what the actual limits of a turbo'd/ Procharged setup would be.
    Last edited by 1FSTBRD; 02-23-2017 at 01:04 AM.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1FSTBRD View Post
    Stock? Wow. That's awesome! The bottom end on the 3.8's is much more durable than it gets credit for. On the Mustang forums, 275-300 ish rwhp was the commonly advised power level not to exceed with a Procharger setup running 7-8 or so PSI in stock form, but I don't know if anyone had actually ran their particular setup higher than that to test it out. Clearly you had, so it's good to see that someone had rolled the dice.

    Does anyone know the real limit to the stock bottom end on the 3.8's? As in turned up the boost until it physically blew? Obviously the M90 would create lots of heat, but I'd be interested in what the actual limits of a turbo'd/ Procharged setup would be.
    It's a dangerous game to play. One person has a personal experience that they consider to be gospel, someone else bets their kids future on achieving the same result and boom. I have played that game many times and the longer I live the more I realize that it's a fool's game. One person might be fine with the idea that their engine might explode at any minute but the next person might consider that traumatizing.

    It would have been very easy for us to turn the boost up on our $200 JY motor and "see" where it goes but if I have learned anything over the years it is to act more responsibly than I think. So that's what we have done here. With the right pieces in place, we will satisfy everyone's burning desire to see what is possible vs. what is responsible. And no, that doesn't mean we are going to blow up a stock 3.8L. What it means is we are building a solid bottom end and some good valvetrain so we can safely turn it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  15. #105
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    Jun 2005
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    196
    Here is my own car. You can see I hit the rev limiter in second.. I ran into it just because the powerband is now so much more linear that 6000 feels like 5000 used to (I was still getting used to that.) I am taking it back to Dave this summer for E85 conversion 'cuz it's easier to find it here than 93 octane is now. Also note how the camera gets pushed backwards in perfect time with the way the power comes on, lol:


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