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Thread: DrFishbone Engine Build Thread 2017

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrFishbone View Post
    Iím not sure what everybody else uses...all I seem to recall seeing / reading is a catch can between the PCV and intake to keepsome of the junk out of the intake tract. Iím looking at reducing crankcase pressure primarily....seems to me that the small 1/4Ē(?) tube out of the drivers valve cover is a restriction under WOT...for a higher-boost SC, there HAS to be enough blow-by to at least add a little pressure in the crankcase when using that small line. There will be oil mist too...maybe not enough to matter? I donít know. Iíve seen oil accumulate in that crossover tube though.

    By upsizing the PCV side and eliminating the valve, it would be a second way to relieve the pressure, in addition to pulling fumes out during idle/cruising. It may be better to leave it in place though. Unless Iím just off on an imaginary train of thought, all the PCV does is control when crankcase vapors are pulled from the valvecover.

    If understand correctly, the PCV is closed during high-vacuum AND when the crankcase sees pressure, but open between the two (slight vacuum). Otherwise, wouldnít it just be a check valve?

    Anyways - Iím just wondering if we canít improve the crankcase evacuation IN ADDITION to cleaning up the PCV air.
    I have ran the same AMW catch can that I did 3 group buys on for years at over 20psi boost. Works great, catches stuff, and my intake is clean.
    SCCoA Member#: 2515
    1990 SC AOD 2.1L Kenne Bell
    11.676 @ 121.35 mph
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  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMT View Post
    In my experience, not all PCVs do that the same, meaning some don't close/seal as well as others under all conditions. If you're trying to eliminate backflow during boost, as an example, see - see http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthre...&highlight=PCV

    If you're looking for examples, check out the systems on newer supercharged mustangs.
    I guess my ponderings are twofold -
    1) if you have a catchcan....do you really need a PCV, given it is plumbed into a non-boost (vacuum only) part of the intake system? I think this can needs to be packed tight, but seems like there;'s no harm constatly cirulating air through the crankcase, rather than just when the PCV opens.
    2) are we losing any power (at all) by venting the WOT crankcase gases only through the little crossover tube from the driver valve cover?
    Matt Haub
    Shootouts: '09 SS 1st | '10 Mod1 2nd | '11 Bracket 3rd | '12 Bracket 1st | 2013 | '14 Bracket 3rd | 2015 | '16 Bracket 1st & Mod2 2nd | 2017 |
    Black '89 5spd - 281K miles, MPx, E85, Alky-Inj ¶ RWHP: ? RWTQ: ? ¶ Best 1/4mi:12.521, MPH:107.23mph
    35th Anniversary Auto 46k miles | Red '93 Auto 186k miles
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  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricardoa1 View Post
    The way you have it has a vac leak at idle cause there is nothing restricting airflow from the intake tube to the inlet which is under vac at idle. Basically creating a vacuum leak.
    I see what you're saying now....but that's not a vacuum leak...it's just additonal METERED air going around the TB plate...right? Same concept as the IAC function, bypass screws and having the TB plate cracked slightly, correct?

    There will need to be enough restriction in the former PCV path to keep the idle within range without the IAC having to go crazy...hard to say what hose size, etc. would be okay....maybe a PCV or constant restriction would need to be added.
    Last edited by DrFishbone; 09-12-2018 at 01:22 PM.
    Matt Haub
    Shootouts: '09 SS 1st | '10 Mod1 2nd | '11 Bracket 3rd | '12 Bracket 1st | 2013 | '14 Bracket 3rd | 2015 | '16 Bracket 1st & Mod2 2nd | 2017 |
    Black '89 5spd - 281K miles, MPx, E85, Alky-Inj ¶ RWHP: ? RWTQ: ? ¶ Best 1/4mi:12.521, MPH:107.23mph
    35th Anniversary Auto 46k miles | Red '93 Auto 186k miles
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  4. #169
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    BTW- I appreciate the comments Ryan, Rico, and Ken.
    Matt Haub
    Shootouts: '09 SS 1st | '10 Mod1 2nd | '11 Bracket 3rd | '12 Bracket 1st | 2013 | '14 Bracket 3rd | 2015 | '16 Bracket 1st & Mod2 2nd | 2017 |
    Black '89 5spd - 281K miles, MPx, E85, Alky-Inj ¶ RWHP: ? RWTQ: ? ¶ Best 1/4mi:12.521, MPH:107.23mph
    35th Anniversary Auto 46k miles | Red '93 Auto 186k miles
    My Garage

  5. #170
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    1) I would avoid any scenario that involves feeding additional unmetered air of any type into the crankcase. Also remember that the PCV shunt action involves closing/restricting flow in two directions, not just one. It might help to review PCV basics:

    http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/197

    If you delete the PCV, you should at least incorporate some sort of restriction, such as a simple baffle with a small hole...I've heard that some manufs. are doing this on cheaper cars in an effort to reduce costs, etc. But by the time you go to that amount of DIY, you could just retain the OE PCV system and be done. Wasn't there a recent thread where someone found out the factory baffles were somehow missing/removed when they inspected the valve covers?

    2) Along with moisture reduction, the idea is to reduce crankcase pressure (neutralize, actually) so the pistons see as little resistance as possible going both up and down. Before it became an emissions issue, manuf's used to vent down into the air stream under the car (for both moisture vapor and pressure evac). Track cars still do this in many examples, but they also have to be able to catch/control spills, etc. on the fly, which is another topic. Notice that the driver's side vent feeds into the intake tube, upstream of the TB, so I don't see power loss as a factor....it is basically re-circulation that hopes to burn off condensation and balance crankcase pressure. Power loss might be a factor if that balance is out of whack, I think.

    Ken

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMT View Post
    1) I would avoid any scenario that involves feeding additional unmetered air of any type into the crankcase.
    Agreed - I don't think what I have in mind is doing so though.

    When the inlet is under partial vacuum with the stock arrangement (when PCV is open), air is being PULLED from the intake pipe through the crossover tube, into the drivers valve cover (crankcase), out the passenger valve cover (crankcase) and into the inlet...this all happens as a closed system, AFTER the air has been metered. Under boost, PCV will be closed and half of the system acts as a crankcase vent path only (through the crossover tube)...so, the way I'm seeing it, blowby / crankcase pressure is unmetered even with the stock setup. I'm just wondering if 1) it's nearly negligible (I'm doubting it) or 2) the factory (and our custom WOT tunes) account for the additional blow-by air.

    Maybe I'm over-imagining the amount of blowby we see at 20psi+, 7000rpm....but watching David Clark's dyno session in Illinois and seeing the amount of oil mist blown out of the catch can vent (before he changed back to a closed system) really got me thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by KMT View Post
    If you delete the PCV, you should at least incorporate some sort of restriction, such as a simple baffle with a small hole...I've heard that some manufs. are doing this on cheaper cars in an effort to reduce costs, etc. But by the time you go to that amount of DIY, you could just retain the OE PCV system and be done. Wasn't there a recent thread where someone found out the factory baffles were somehow missing/removed when they inspected the valve covers?
    I agree - some restriction may be required. That should be easy and cheap to add though. Didn't see the thread you're referring to, but I do know that some of the rocker stud / rocker arm custom setups require modification or removal of the baffles for clearance - I don't have the factory internal baffles in mine right now - I will be putting the modified ones in when i take the covers off again.

    Quote Originally Posted by KMT View Post
    2) Along with moisture reduction, the idea is to reduce crankcase pressure (neutralize, actually) so the pistons see as little resistance as possible going both up and down. Before it became an emissions issue, manuf's used to vent down into the air stream under the car (for both moisture vapor and pressure evac). Track cars still do this in many examples, but they also have to be able to catch/control spills, etc. on the fly, which is another topic. Notice that the driver's side vent feeds into the intake tube, upstream of the TB, so I don't see power loss as a factor....it is basically re-circulation that hopes to burn off condensation and balance crankcase pressure. Power loss might be a factor if that balance is out of whack, I think.
    Right...so the question I am posing: Is increasing the boost from ~12psi to 20psi+, increasing the static CR, advancing the timing further (sometimes), increasing the redline RPM on our motors also increasing the blow-by to a point where we SHOULD be looking at increasing the flow path that the blowby (crankcase evac) takes?
    Matt Haub
    Shootouts: '09 SS 1st | '10 Mod1 2nd | '11 Bracket 3rd | '12 Bracket 1st | 2013 | '14 Bracket 3rd | 2015 | '16 Bracket 1st & Mod2 2nd | 2017 |
    Black '89 5spd - 281K miles, MPx, E85, Alky-Inj ¶ RWHP: ? RWTQ: ? ¶ Best 1/4mi:12.521, MPH:107.23mph
    35th Anniversary Auto 46k miles | Red '93 Auto 186k miles
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  7. #172
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    I feel you are still missing the closed at high vac and closed and low to no vac function of the valve. It already acts as a restrictor when under boost cause the inlet should be near zero when boosting unless you are cavitating the blower. Yes some is venting but itís not fully open, if the engine has excessive blow by then thatís a problem but you have a brand new engine and hopefully the rings seated as they Should.

    You can test it out by running a hose to the windshield or near the cabin so you see whatís happening under boost, part throttle or full vac. That might put your fears to rest, you run alky things get cleaned with that as well.
    1994 Supercoupe 5spd Custom, first to buy a 2.1L Big Bore Kenne Bell Twin Screw for an SC - 480whp at TI/SCU
    On the 1.7l AR SC: 415WHP and 12.2535 @112.18. Best TQ to date 516ft/lbs.
    1990 35th 5spd 2011 Carlisle 1st place class winner. 12.9@108MPH 1.9.
    2013 GT/CS 5.0L FRPP 2.3l Whipplecharged family weekend car.
    2011 Cadillac Escalade Hybrid LS 6.0l LZ1

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrFishbone View Post
    increasing the static CR, advancing the timing further (sometimes), increasing the redline RPM on our motors also increasing the blow-by to a point where we SHOULD be looking at increasing the flow path that the blowby (crankcase evac) takes?
    Like I said...in certain 'race type' conditions, the choice is to keep it simple and generously vent the crankcase directly to the atmosphere.

  9. #174
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    I decided (or more accurate: realized) last night that I'm pretty much out of time to work on my car for the Shootout, so now it's down to getting some seat time in it, changing oil and tuning it. So, here's what I'm running for the Shootout, since I had all these things on-hand from last year's TBU Box-O-Crap auction.

    Name:  shootout whipup.PNG
Views: 61
Size:  22.2 KB

    I don't like the idea of much street driving without PCV, but this will do. Hopefully later in Oct. I can find time to play with it some more.

    Now it's time to put some love into my wife's Anny as time permits...looks like we'll be bringing both (and racing both) this year!
    Matt Haub
    Shootouts: '09 SS 1st | '10 Mod1 2nd | '11 Bracket 3rd | '12 Bracket 1st | 2013 | '14 Bracket 3rd | 2015 | '16 Bracket 1st & Mod2 2nd | 2017 |
    Black '89 5spd - 281K miles, MPx, E85, Alky-Inj ¶ RWHP: ? RWTQ: ? ¶ Best 1/4mi:12.521, MPH:107.23mph
    35th Anniversary Auto 46k miles | Red '93 Auto 186k miles
    My Garage

  10. #175
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    What you just posted is what I'm going to be running on my new motor. I kinda feel the same as you about the PVC, but I think that's the tree hugger brainwashing that we have all been exposed to for the last 30 years coming out. Cars ran fine without them before the hippies took over!
    Any idiot can make a Mustang fast...
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    89 SC 4.3 stroker 384rwhp 473ftlbs
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  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrFishbone View Post
    I don't like the idea of much street driving without PCV, but this will do.
    Not bad, but...

    This appears to be an even simpler, also boost compatible, check-ball solution: http://www.uprproducts.com/billet-on...ather-kit.html

    As our oil filler is already a stack off the valve cover, $70 for billet isn't that bad a deal. Not sure it would be a direct fit...might need to swap the cap socket/neck for something late model, perhaps easy to find via PnP/eBay etc.

    They also sell this if you need to vent to a catch can: http://www.uprproducts.com/mustang-b...-straight.html
    Last edited by KMT; 09-14-2018 at 12:10 AM.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrFishbone View Post
    I decided (or more accurate: realized) last night that I'm pretty much out of time to work on my car for the Shootout, so now it's down to getting some seat time in it, changing oil and tuning it. So, here's what I'm running for the Shootout, since I had all these things on-hand from last year's TBU Box-O-Crap auction.

    Name:  shootout whipup.PNG
Views: 61
Size:  22.2 KB

    I don't like the idea of much street driving without PCV, but this will do. Hopefully later in Oct. I can find time to play with it some more.

    Now it's time to put some love into my wife's Anny as time permits...looks like we'll be bringing both (and racing both) this year!
    This will work getting the blowby at wot out but will not evacuate moisture and gases at part throttle. But it should work for your application.

    What would work best is those oil cap breathers with the checkball and baffles used in MAF applications. That way you will make the pcv work under normal use, but also relief pressure under WOT vŪa the breather. A sealed catch can should still be used to keep the intake semi clean.
    1994 Supercoupe 5spd Custom, first to buy a 2.1L Big Bore Kenne Bell Twin Screw for an SC - 480whp at TI/SCU
    On the 1.7l AR SC: 415WHP and 12.2535 @112.18. Best TQ to date 516ft/lbs.
    1990 35th 5spd 2011 Carlisle 1st place class winner. 12.9@108MPH 1.9.
    2013 GT/CS 5.0L FRPP 2.3l Whipplecharged family weekend car.
    2011 Cadillac Escalade Hybrid LS 6.0l LZ1

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMT View Post
    Not bad, but...

    This appears to be an even simpler, also boost compatible, check-ball solution: http://www.uprproducts.com/billet-on...ather-kit.html

    As our oil filler is already a stack off the valve cover, $70 for billet isn't that bad a deal. Not sure it would be a direct fit...might need to swap the cap socket/neck for something late model, perhaps easy to find via PnP/eBay etc.
    Those are nice products. The filter / vent might make a mess, but should work without too many parts / clutter. Adding that to my existing vented can and leaving the PCV system in place was the first direction I was heading to minimize parts/costs....just couldn't find a nice-looking check valve for it.

    I'm sure it's not a direct fit...but it never has to be anyway.

    Thanks for linking, Ken.
    Matt Haub
    Shootouts: '09 SS 1st | '10 Mod1 2nd | '11 Bracket 3rd | '12 Bracket 1st | 2013 | '14 Bracket 3rd | 2015 | '16 Bracket 1st & Mod2 2nd | 2017 |
    Black '89 5spd - 281K miles, MPx, E85, Alky-Inj ¶ RWHP: ? RWTQ: ? ¶ Best 1/4mi:12.521, MPH:107.23mph
    35th Anniversary Auto 46k miles | Red '93 Auto 186k miles
    My Garage

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricardoa1 View Post
    This will work getting the blowby at wot out but will not evacuate moisture and gases at part throttle. But it should work for your application.

    What would work best is those oil cap breathers with the checkball and baffles used in MAF applications. That way you will make the pcv work under normal use, but also relief pressure under WOT vŪa the breather. A sealed catch can should still be used to keep the intake semi clean.
    Right - I'll do some more heading-scratching this fall/winter. Priority #1 is to be ready to race in less than two weeks right now!
    Matt Haub
    Shootouts: '09 SS 1st | '10 Mod1 2nd | '11 Bracket 3rd | '12 Bracket 1st | 2013 | '14 Bracket 3rd | 2015 | '16 Bracket 1st & Mod2 2nd | 2017 |
    Black '89 5spd - 281K miles, MPx, E85, Alky-Inj ¶ RWHP: ? RWTQ: ? ¶ Best 1/4mi:12.521, MPH:107.23mph
    35th Anniversary Auto 46k miles | Red '93 Auto 186k miles
    My Garage

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by dthompson View Post
    What you just posted is what I'm going to be running on my new motor. I kinda feel the same as you about the PVC, but I think that's the tree hugger brainwashing that we have all been exposed to for the last 30 years coming out. Cars ran fine without them before the hippies took over!
    I kinda started at that...I'd like to get the moisture/oil mist/combustion gas leaks out of the crankcase though.....I just don't care as much where they end up. Don't want them on the road or caked-up in my engine though.
    Matt Haub
    Shootouts: '09 SS 1st | '10 Mod1 2nd | '11 Bracket 3rd | '12 Bracket 1st | 2013 | '14 Bracket 3rd | 2015 | '16 Bracket 1st & Mod2 2nd | 2017 |
    Black '89 5spd - 281K miles, MPx, E85, Alky-Inj ¶ RWHP: ? RWTQ: ? ¶ Best 1/4mi:12.521, MPH:107.23mph
    35th Anniversary Auto 46k miles | Red '93 Auto 186k miles
    My Garage

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