New member - ABS issue, Teves MKII ABS pump

CR125Honda

Registered User
Hi all,
New member.
Recently obtained a 1989 SC from good friend a couple months ago.
Was his parents car, garage kept, very well cared for. Almost in mint condition, 53000 original miles.

Drove it home and on a few short trips after that. Shocks felt a little soft in normal mode but besides that, everything worked like new.
Most of the time at my house, it's been under a cover.
Was away from home for a month and the battery completely drained.

Charged it back up but now have the "Hard pedal Amber Anti Lock and Red Brake Light always on" failure.

Read the article by Duffy Floyd, 1989-1992 Thunderbird SC ABS Systems.

Started troubleshooting at the 4 pin connector to the ABS pump motor.
I'm getting 9.9v and 10.3v off those pins.
This tells me the relay and pressure switch are probably working.
The motor is getting voltage but not running.
Only thing I haven't tried is hooking 12v from a good battery directly to the pump via the 4 pin connector. Duffy's write-up says I should be getting "at least 10v".

Not wanting to do the Hydro-Boost Conversion, want to keep this car all original if possible.

Looking for advice / recommendations on a repair.

Regards, Ken
 
Ken:

1.) Locate the pump at the bottom of the master cylinder...sits horizontal, left-to-right. Find a metal rod you can use to tap the pump with key on, to see if it spins/wakes up. Do not go nuts...banging directly on the pump risks breaking things inside, such as the magnets on the interior of the shell.

2.) Pull the pump/motor ABS relay, pass.side, firewall, near the self-test connector, hiding under some wiring, and inspect for corrosion on it's tangs and in the corresponding connector. Green gunk is not your friend.

3.) Pull the two-piece bezel where the steering wheel meets the dash, then locate the multi-wire ignition switch on the right side of the column. Work the key in the lock cylinder and watch to see of that switch is coming open.

4.) Pull the rectangular connector at the pressure switch underneath the master cylinder (hard to get to...don't bust the tabs) and inspect for corrosion on the contacts on it and the switch, if you can see in there.

5.) Pull the pump connector on the driver's side of the master cylinder that sits at an angle/inside a metal hoop (don't bust the tabs) and inspect for corrosion inside.

Worth doing them all, in that order. See below for what to do after.

-=-

1: If the pump wakes up, might be the pump is worn, or you're just juggling nearby wiring. Keep looking, you might get lucky.

2: Unless you know the relay is only a year or two new, replace it. Make sure to get the right one. Old one may put up a fight coming out.

3: Know it's common for these switches to give up the ghost and lead to many issues, but if the ABS/Brake lights on lit in the cluster w/key on, it's not your immediate problem. If it's original, replace it regardless. If it is suspect, replace it. If you're not sure, replace it. Should be around $20 at any parts store.

2, 4 & 5: Clean/make contacts shiny, add dielectric to the connector seals, not the pins/contacts, and reassemble, then retest operation. You want to hear the pump run, less than a minute with a fully discharged accumulator, then shut off. Don't let it run much longer. Might need a new accumulator if it takes a long time/won't charge, or won't supply at least 10 pedal pumps without running the pump again.

Come back w/questions if you're not clear, etc. If it seems like 1 ~ 5 are ok, next step would be to run the ABS codes. Speak up if it comes to that. If I had to guess, with ony 53k miles and being garaged, I'd say the issue is with the switch and/or wiring/connectors and/or aged accumulator. Be sure to sanity check brake fluid level.

About the shocks....best to keep expectations low. New ones, not that you can find any, won't feel much stiffer.

Good luck.

Ken
 
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Ken:

1.) Locate the pump at the bottom of the master cylinder...sits horizontal, left-to-right. Find a metal rod you can use to thump the pump with key on, to see if it spins/wakes up.

2.) Pull the pump/motor ABS relay, pass.side, firewall, near the self-test connector, hiding under some wiring, and inspect for corrosion on it's tangs and the connector.

3.) Pull the two-piece bezel where the steering wheel meets the dash, then locate the multi-wire ignition switch on the right side of the column. Work the key in the lock cylinder and watch to see of that switch is coming open.

4.) Pull the rectangular connector at the pressure switch underneath the master cylinder (hard to get to...don't bust the tabs) and inspect for corrosion inside.

5.) Pull the pump connector on the driver's side of the master cylinder that sits at an angle/inside a metal hoop (don't bust the tabs) and inspect for corrosion inside.

Worth doing them all, in that order. See below for what to do after.

-=-

1: If the pump wakes up, might be the pump is worn, or you're just juggling nearby wiring. Keep looking, you might get lucky.

2: Unless you know the relay is only a year or two new, replace it. Make sure to get the right one. Old one may put up a fight coming out.

3: Know it's common for these switches to give up the ghost and lead to many issues. If it's original, replace it regardless. If it is suspect, replace it. If you're not sure, replace it. Should be around $20 at any parts store.

2, 4 & 5: Clean/make contacts shiny, add dielectric to the connector seals and reassemble, then retest operation. You want to hear the pump run, less than a minute with a fully discharged accumulator, then shut off. Don't let it run much longer. Might need a new accumulator if it takes a long time/won't charge, or won't supply at least 10 pedal pumps without running the pump again.

Come back w/questions if you're not clear, etc. If it seems like 1 ~ 5 are ok, next step would be to run the ABS codes. Speak up if it comes to that. If I had to guess, with ony 53k miles and being garaged, I'd say the issue is with the switch and/or wiring/connectors and/or aged accumulator. Be sure to sanity check brake fluid level.

About the shocks....best to keep expectations low. New ones, not that you can find any, won't feel much stiffer.

Good luck.

Ken

KMT, Thanks so much for your help.

Tried rapping on the pump with key on. No Luck
Disconnected the 4 pin connector to the pump. Determined the top and bottom posts on the connector are positive / left & right, negative.
With jumper leads and a good battery, I tried all the combinations on the connector leading directly to the pump - top/positive to right/negative, then to left negative..., then bottom/positive to left and right negatives, etc.. tapping on the pump with a bar at all attempts.

None of these would start the motor.

Without a wiring diagram, I'm assuming if one of the positive leads to the pump is hot, completed with a negative, the pump should run.
Is that correct or do both of the positive leads to the pump need to be hot for it to run?

Sure would like to hear the motor spin before I dive into the rest of the harness..

Ken
 
I'll toss you a bone, and strongly recommend you order an EVTM for your year SC right now...check eBay.

http://www.35thatr.org/Tips/ABS.htm



Remember an SC lives/dies on it's connections and grounds, a fact which is compounded by the age of the car now.
Thanks again KMT,

Understood on the manuals. Have quite a few vintage vehicles/motorcycles. Sometimes I get the shop manuals right away. Sometimes not.

Really didn't think this troubleshooting step would be too difficult.
Does the pump need power from two sources (both positive pins on the 4 pin connector) to run? One? Or?
Unfortunately, Floyd's write-up on the system doesn't say (at least I couldn't figure it out).
I am getting voltage at each positive pin, but it's right at 10v due to a bad battery. Was trying to bypass the harness and hook up directly to the pump with a good battery.
When that didn't work, I thought maybe both positive pins needed to be hot. Was unable to do that with my jumper cable.

"If the pump does not run you now most likely have an external electrical problem although it is possible the pump motor is shot. Here is how to tell what is what. With the Ignition Switch off depress the brake pedal 20 times to ensure the system is fully depressurized. Turn the Ignition Switch to Run the pump should run. If not disconnect the 4 pin connector on the pump. Use a multi meter to measure the voltage on the pins of the harness connector. The two positive pins are on opposite side of the connector as are the negative pins. Measure from one positive to one negative pin. (See figure 3).You should measure more than `10V DC. If you don’t, potential problems include either the Hydraulic Pump Motor Relay, The Pressure Switch or the wiring harness between them all."

I'll do my best to figure that out when the EVTM comes.

In the mean time, here's a few pics of my new addition.

Ken

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Ain't she sweet! Thanks for sharing.

I dug out one of my spare pumps, and found that if I jumper off a car battery to either positive (top/bottom pins in the diagram/fig. 3) and either negative (left/right pins in the diagram/fig. 3), at the 4-pin connector that -leads- to the pump (effectively taking the harness, relays, pressure switch etc. etc. out of the equation), located in the metal hoop on the left side of the master cylinder, the pump jumps.

If the pump doesn't spin when doing that, I would connect the jumpers to the pins -and- bang on the pump to see if it wakes up.
 
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Does the pump need power from two sources (both positive pins on the 4 pin connector) to run? One? Or?

When that didn't work, I thought maybe both positive pins needed to be hot. Was unable to do that with my jumper cable.

You can put power and ground to any 2 adjacent pins at the motor connector to test the motor. It doesn't matter which one you choose;
however.. (hint) the flat edge pin is usually +12V and the pin directly across from it as well. The reason it doesn't matter which you choose is that the motor will spin backwards or forwards, but to test it its alive, that doesn't matter.

If the motor doesn't spin, even with the wake-up taps.. there's a possiblity that the internal thermal switch has broken apart. You can test that by measuring the resistance between any 2 adjacent pins as well. An open circuit means the switch is not working, or there's corrosion on the brushes+commutator. To fix that requires complete dissasembly, cleaning, and some skill with a soldering iron. You will also need a new motor shaft seal because... the thing that kills the motor is brake fluid seeping past the aged seal.

Good luck. These braking system do NOT like to sit over the years. They live a long time though if they're used regularly.
 
Ain't she sweet! Thanks for sharing.

I dug out one of my spare pumps, and found that if I jumper off a car battery to either positive (top/bottom pins in the diagram/fig. 3) and either negative (left/right pins in the diagram/fig. 3), at the 4-pin connector that -leads- to the pump (effectively taking the harness, relays, pressure switch etc. etc. out of the equation), located in the metal hoop on the left side of the master cylinder, the pump jumps.

If the pump doesn't spin when doing that, I would connect the jumpers to the pins -and- bang on the pump to see if it wakes up.

You can put power and ground to any 2 adjacent pins at the motor connector to test the motor. It doesn't matter which one you choose;
however.. (hint) the flat edge pin is usually +12V and the pin directly across from it as well. The reason it doesn't matter which you choose is that the motor will spin backwards or forwards, but to test it its alive, that doesn't matter.

If the motor doesn't spin, even with the wake-up taps.. there's a possiblity that the internal thermal switch has broken apart. You can test that by measuring the resistance between any 2 adjacent pins as well. An open circuit means the switch is not working, or there's corrosion on the brushes+commutator. To fix that requires complete dissasembly, cleaning, and some skill with a soldering iron. You will also need a new motor shaft seal because... the thing that kills the motor is brake fluid seeping past the aged seal.

Good luck. These braking system do NOT like to sit over the years. They live a long time though if they're used regularly.


Thanks you two,
Again, much appreciated.
Pretty much confirmed today the pump motor is bad.
First checked resistance between all adjacent pins. 25 kOhms. None were open.
Tried jumping the motor again.
Put my air hammer on it's lightest setting, used a long bar for reach, then let it lightly wrapped on the motor housing.
Nada, Zip. Motor did not want to wake up.

Have an EVTM on the way.
Looks like I'm going to need a shop manual also.

Anyone know if a Chilton's covers the ABS assembly removal and then bleeding procedure for installation?

Ken
 
Anyone know if a Chilton's covers the ABS assembly removal and then bleeding procedure for installation?

Ken

Chilton's...no way.

Factory manual is in your future. Quick summary is: remove wipers and at least the driver side cowl; disconnect harness points you can reach; remove hard lines at the pump...needs good tools/tubing wrenches; remove nuts on studs inside firewall; disconnect pedal; remove unit from vehicle. Reverse to re-install, noting it helps to not run the nuts down on the studs until you're reconnected the pedal.

I like to vacuum bleed w/spill bottle. Quoting from Duffy's article: http://www.sccoia.org/articles/anti-lock-braking-system/

"Another area of potential problem is the manner in which the brake system is bleed. Since this is a High Pressure ABS System certain procedures must be followed to perform these operations. Front Brakes can be bleed in a conventional manner either with the Ignition Key ON and the system pressurized or with the system depressurized. Rear Brakes are a different matter altogether though. The Ignition Switch must be ON and the system pressurized to get this bleed operation to work. Be aware that the system will have a lot of pressure on it so the brake pedal does not have to be pressed very far to get flow to the rear brake circuit."
What are your plans for parts?

Ken
 
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Bleed the fronts with the key on, pressure in the system; rears key off. I like to vacuum bleed w/spill bottle.

Ken

Isn't that "Front with key off; rear with key on, pressure in the system"?

Matter of fact, that's what the FSM says for my 1991. Section 12-32-8.

RwP
 
Chilton's...no way.

Factory manual is in your future. Quick summary is: remove wipers and at least the driver side cowl; disconnect harness points you can reach; remove hard lines at the pump...needs good tools/tubing wrenches; remove nuts on studs inside firewall; disconnect pedal; remove unit from vehicle. Reverse to re-install, noting it helps to not run the nuts down on the studs until you're reconnected the pedal.

Bleed the fronts with the key on, pressure in the system; rears key off. I like to vacuum bleed w/spill bottle.

What are your plans for parts?

Ken

Factory manual.. Got it.
Grew up wrenching heavy equipment. Then motorcycles & cars, etc, for 45 yrs now.
Got my A&P (certified aircraft mechanic) when I got all my flight ratings many years ago.
Quality tools has always been a must. Hotdog wagon and a couple top & bottom boxes full.

Replacement parts....

Did some searching today to find out whats available.
Looks like the pump and accumulator were available at one time. $400 give or take.
And the entire unit in the $600 range.
Really not sure what's "in stock" and available.
And won't buy those unless necessary.

Hoping something as simple as brushes or having this motor rebuilt (assuming the hyd seal I've read about is available), will do the trick.
Would much rather go that route.
Finding a good used pump might be an option too. Again, would probably install a new seal in it if that's what I were to use.
From what I read, they rarely fail...

Pump & Accumulator link - Cardone 12-4411
Assy link Duralast 12-3427, Cardone Part #
12-3427, mpn664468460


Kinda winging it for now.
It's obvious to me now the old one needs to come out. Starting there.

Ken
 
Pump & Accumulator link
Assy link

Note those links has been saying "OUT OF STOCK - Unavailable until further notice" ...for some time now.

Try Victor, http://spinningwheels-sc.com

Reports here were that a honda spec seal, brake fluid safe, was right sized and easily found. Search for details.

The point about the tools was that the brake lines at the pump are sometimes reluctant to come loose - the better the tubing wrench fits, the better the odds of success without a fight/damage to the fittings. Given your resume, you should have a leg up in any case.

I've been able to keep mine going with fresh relays, accumulator and pressure switch so far, but used pump spares are standing by. Problem w/used pump is the amount of work to swap it out if it gives up in short order. Beats no brakes tho ;) I've pulled an assembly once and don't look forward to it again soon.

Good luck with the job.

Ken
 
Note those links has been saying "OUT OF STOCK - Unavailable until further notice" ...for some time now.

Try Victor, http://spinningwheels-sc.com

Reports here were that a honda spec seal, brake fluid safe, was right sized and easily found. Search for details.

The point about the tools was that the brake lines at the pump are sometimes reluctant to come loose - the better the tubing wrench fits, the better the odds of success without a fight/damage to the fittings. Given your resume, you should have a leg up in any case.

I've been able to keep mine going with fresh relays, accumulator and pressure switch so far, but used pump spares are standing by. Problem w/used pump is the amount of work to swap it out if it gives up in short order. Beats no brakes tho ;) I've pulled an assembly once and don't look forward to it again soon.

Good luck with the job.

Ken

Thanks Ken,
Will give Victor a call as needed. Checked their site which says they are OOS also.
Kudos on the Honda seal tip.
Guessing the other vehicles that used the Teves MKII (VW, Buick, Lincoln,etc.) are having this issue too?
Or are there different versions of the MKII? Will look some more into that.

Hopefully one of these will successfully break the line loose.
Ken
AsQtuJO.jpg
 
Victor must have just sold the ones he had, sorry. But sure, call to confirm and see if he has an idea on next, perhaps.

Any vehicle that used similar faces the same march of time, I'm sure. We haven't been able to locate a pump supply via cross-over if that's what you're asking. Had on/off luck w/the accumulator. Pressure switch crosses last time I needed one, but that's been two years, I think. Relays are easy enough still, just a tad pricey for the correct P/N. Auto-ride/ARC brake pressure switch is also on/off.

Nice tools...the S-Os ought to do it. Mine have saved me for years. What gets real ugly is when the fitting won't let go of the tubing and even when it comes loose, it wants to twist the tube... I saturate mine w/penetrant and break them loose every few years just to be sure that when the time comes, they don't complicate the effort.
 
What gets real ugly is when the fitting won't let go of the tubing and even when it comes loose, it wants to twist the tube... I saturate mine w/penetrant and break them loose every few years just to be sure that when the time comes, they don't complicate the effort.
The tool to have is the vise wrench. Saved my bacon a couple of times. Not to be confused with the vise grip plier, due to the way it clamps on, it will not slip nor round off the fitting. I have the 2 smaller sizes and have needed both.
 
The tool to have is the vise wrench. .


I have those as well. Might work...pretty tight in there tho.

SC_ABS_Tools.png

Not sure it would fit them all, but it could help to at least break the fitting loose on a couple of them...remember the fitting has to be backed out while holding the adapter between it and the main body with another wrench...that's where there is a chance to twist the tubing.

If the components weren't nearly 30 yrs. old, there are several tools that would make the job a snap, but when the risk for damage to them is high and corrosion/chemical welding is a factor, it frequently takes a bit more planning. Nothing like a spiraled brake line to ruin your day ;)
 
Victor must have just sold the ones he had, sorry. But sure, call to confirm and see if he has an idea on next, perhaps.

Any vehicle that used similar faces the same march of time, I'm sure. We haven't been able to locate a pump supply via cross-over if that's what you're asking. Had on/off luck w/the accumulator. Pressure switch crosses last time I needed one, but that's been two years, I think. Relays are easy enough still, just a tad pricey for the correct P/N. Auto-ride/ARC brake pressure switch is also on/off.

Nice tools...the S-Os ought to do it. Mine have saved me for years. What gets real ugly is when the fitting won't let go of the tubing and even when it comes loose, it wants to twist the tube... I saturate mine w/penetrant and break them loose every few years just to be sure that when the time comes, they don't complicate the effort.

I appreciate the effort to located parts with Victor. Tried calling the number on the website this morning, (352) 732-5013.
Got a message saying the number was not in service. Website is up a running.
Maybe he changed the number and hasn't updated?

I was asking about cross-over. Got to be a a lot of stranded cars out that used the Teves MKII. Range Rover, Jag VW, Ford, Buick, Lincoln, etc.
I was able to find a new pump for the Range rover. It "looks" the same. Different electrical connector though.

More I read on this, the more I see how difficult it's been to get parts for. Bummer.
Will get this figured out one way or another...

Going to try removing the assy today. Will update later.
 
Seen some accumulator cross-over w/Saab, also Jag, I think. They may not have the same capacity/internal port size, but they have been shown to work ok.

Try this phone for spinningwheels: 352-209-4349 - still no joy, email: spinningwheels-sc@earthlink.net
 
The tool to have is the vise wrench. Saved my bacon a couple of times. Not to be confused with the vise grip plier, due to the way it clamps on, it will not slip nor round off the fitting. I have the 2 smaller sizes and have needed both.

Have a lot of tools (including these tube ratchet sockets) but could always have more. Never seen them before. Nice! On the list! Thanks for the heads up.

NthIFJm.jpg
 
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