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Thread: Problem sovled?!?!?!?! MAybe

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
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    New Jersey
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    Unhappy Problem sovled?!?!?!?! MAybe

    Hi,
    Talked to mechaic today and he told me he found the problem. My crank bolt broke off!! I neglected to ask how the SPOUT came into play here. but I'm waiting for him to give me a total. I weas told b Don I'm looking at $350 or so for the job? Any other numbers?
    Thanks
    Lee

  2. #2
    Well, that depends, was it just the bolt or is the balancer shot too? Let me know if I can help out Lee.

    http://www.bluetonguemotorsports.com/BHJ/SCdamper.html

    Paul

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Rock Hill, SC
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    786

    You too huh??

    This just happened to me a few days ago. I was just driving with my g/f and the car just died.

    At a minimum, you will need a new harmonic balancer/pulley assembly from Ford, and a new front crankshaft seal. If you are lucky, it didn't screw up the crankshaft position sensor. I replaced mine anyway. Actually, I am still in process of fixing mine.

    All I can say is that this happens way too often with these cars. Has anyone ever thought about a petition to send to Ford telling them how cheap these dampners are?

    Thanks

    Phil

  4. #4
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    Jun 2002
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    Lugen How many times have you broken the balancer bolt????

    Jeff

  5. #5
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    Apr 2002
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    New Jersey
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    75

    Unhappy

    THis is it .Once
    Lee

  6. #6
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    Jun 2002
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    Thought I remember talking to you on the boards a few months ago because you wanted to change your bolt. Couldn't really remember what it was about. just found it.

    http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthre...&threadid=8340

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
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    504
    mine broke twice, the first time it cost me 350 just for the balancer and pully! second time was free from ford warenty
    cause they put it on. i did have to argue with them though.i said, look man, i know your mechanic didn't torque that bolt. he put it on with an impact, and broke the bolt. i had my car back the next day.
    joe

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Magnolia Texas (Houston)
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    468
    Split dampeners break bolts. Lee you need a new harmonic dampener. The crank trigger reads off a metal trigger ring on the back side. That's why they thought SPOUT (spark output) the ECM doesn't provide accurate spark info if it doesn't know where the crank really is (the dampener has rotated independently of the crankshaft).

    Here is an overview of the damper situation, problems and their causes and recommended repair methods. This was learned from experience and sharing information with others. I keep it on my hard drive for a ready response to a common problem. The subject of dampener balancing is one that is still debated by long standing members of the SC community and the views expressed by me are from my experience only. It is my opinion that if the original balance can no longer be verified, as is the case with a broken dampener the new assembly installed should be neutral. This article was last updated 3-16-03.

    For a good reason to get upset at Ford (as if you don't have enough already) take a closer look at the dampener snout. It is made of aluminum with a steel inner and outer sleeve. Thin steel sleeves. The factory pulley is heavy steel casting with a machined belt surface; this makes it impossible to be balanced without adding weights. Some have more balancing weight than others welded on the pulley. This could be a washer or similar pieces of steel that gets it close but not neutrally balanced. Then to achieve a final neutral balance of the assembly Ford used two methods on SCís over the years. The first technique used small steel pins inserted into the backside of the dampener hub that has a circle of evenly spaced predrilled holes for balancing weights. As far as I know this was used from í89 through í92. Then in í93 SC dampeners were balanced by drilling to removing material. This limp wristed design can barely handle the stock HP and weight levels; many break of old age. I made the mistake of overdriving the blower with a stock exhaust system and blower top; this increased power and drive loads. That's what broke my OEM unit. I then installed another damper with itís own pulley out of a junkyard and because of confusing instructions in the Haynes manual I relocated the balance pins to match my old dampener assembly on it. This caused that assembly to be out of balance while still overdriving a blower with stock top and exhaust; I think that one lasted about 4000 miles. After that one broke I bought a complete assembly (pulley and damper) from Ford for less than $200, it comes balanced, and I didn't mess with it. That was my first SC, when I got around to increasing horsepower on my current (2nd) SC I used Auto Specialties under drive pulleys to reduce the damper weight and drive loads. I also did the exhaust and installed a raised top at the same time. These were steps made to increase damper longevity; the increase in performance was secondary at this point.

    In efforts to get this figured out and avoid any more breakdowns I took the dampener assembly and both pulleys to a machine shop and had them checked in every configuration. With the stock pulley and pin arrangement, it was neutrally balanced. Then the dampener itself without the pulley but with the balancing pins still in place was out of balance. Then the dampener alone without pins went back to neutral, establishing that the damper itself is neutral. And then the dampener without pins but with the ASP crank pulley that ASP had said would be neutral and it was. ASPís pulleys are machined perfectly round with precision tolerances from billet aluminum; therefore are neutral by design and need no after installation rebalancing done. So I installed it like that, ASP pulley without any pins, doing the other tricks to improve durability (top and exhaust and others listed below) and it's been working with lots of HP and hard driving ever since. The engines new smoothness over the swap pin arrangement was immediately evident. If this one ever splits I'll get one of the BHJ steel hub dampeners and that should be the end off it. Since I have acquired another SC, this one is a í95. At 125K its dampener elastomer failed and the ring walked backwards until it started rubbing the cover then crank-sensor. I purchased another assembly from Ford along with another ASP under-drive pulley set. Because of the long-standing debate over the pins and their true purpose I once again had the machine shop check the initial balance of the stock assembly. This being a í95 it didnít have pins but had some holes drilled into the ring from the backside. Once again the assembly was neutral from Ford and needed to be rebalanced to remain neutral after the ASP pulley was installed.

    Which type of crank pulley do you have, stock or ASP under-drive? If you do have under-drive pulleys already and you didn't remove all the balance pins from the factory dampener then thatís probably why it failed. They are fragile and without proper care will break anyways. The factory dampeners are neutral; the pins are used for the unbalanced and heavy pulley. With an ASP pulley all pins should be removed to balance it out. If you use a stock pulley and dampener from two different engines you will need to have the assembly dynamically balanced for the new combination. You would be better off using an Auto Specialties pulley set, not only will it lessen the load on the next dampener greatly, it can be installed on a dampener without re-balancing.

    The best thing to do would be to replace the dampener with one of the new aftermarket ones that Steve Webb (blackbirdsc) sourced out from BHJ and using the ASP pulleys. If you don't have the money for it then you should at least get another Ford dampener and pulley assembly. They come with the pulley installed and balanced. Hopefully they're still available. And how much do these assemblies run nowadays? Mine was under $200 but that was several years ago, it could be that the BHJ unit is competitive now. Just be aware that more power and airflow along with bottlenecks anywhere in the system could cause it to break again. If you find one from the salvage yard then try to get it with the pulley still attached. This way you don't have to spend the time and bucks rebalancing it. If you go with another dampener and your old pulley then it needs to be balanced as a unit. Also be aware that the Ford dampenerís shaft sleeve wears out or takes a setting to the crank over time and should be considered as disposable. Using a salvage part is risky and should be done as a last resort. With any damper the proper tools have to be used during removal and installation to prevent shaft sleeve warping or stretching, it you use a hammer of any kind on this part you wonít do it the next time.

    As far as getting the old bolt out itís best to use a reverse cutting drill bit along with a reversing drill. Usually the drill bit will only get in so far before the bolt shaft starts twisting out of the crank snout. If you use a right angle drill adapter you wonít have to remove the radiator. They cost about $15 at Home Depot. As long as you didn't use lock-tite on it, it should come right out. If you did, and I did once, just heat it up first. Ford doesnít use lock-tite here. As for a replacement bolt, get a new one from Ford for the late model Mustang 3.8 along with its washer. They redesigned it and the washer for more strength. This is why they discontinued the SC bolt, it would be nice if they cross referenced it to the old part number but they didnít and cause many a panic attack among SC owners. Use the maximum recommended torque on install. In fact find out if they raised this torque specification for the Mustangs new bigger hardware, and if so, use the larger torque. Our cranks are stronger than the normal 3.8ís and it can take it without any problems.

    Ford part numbers for the Mustang bolt and washer are:
    Crank bolt F58Z-6A340-A
    Crank bolt washer E2DZ-6378-A

    Another thing for the wise to do is replace the woodruff key with a new one. These things develop some slack with use and once a dampener has broken loose on one it is useless. Without a tight fit the next dampener will fail soon. I hate Pep boys but they had these things in bulk, try Ford first.

    My crank sensors never got hit by the broken dampener but it's always a possibility so do look carefully. In fact as troublesome as the crank sensor is now would be a good time to replace it. If you do just make sure the vanes on the back of the dampener slide into the sensor groove on install otherwise a sensor misalignment could crush the sensor and or bend the vane on the back of the dampener.

    In theory the weak hub could develop a fatigue fracture failure due to erratic crank momentum. If you have an ignition misfire you should know it, but what about a clogged or stuck injector? They could cause abnormally high crank harmonics that would accelerate wear. Maybe a good injector flush would be cheap insurance. In this same line of thinking a bad A/C compressor could stress the dampener in this way and Iíve heard of two occasions when clutch chatter immediately preceded a balancer failure. Does yours run smoothly?

    A large throttle body increases HP not only from more CFM but also by reducing blower vacuum drag on the rotors; thereby it reduces pulley loads also.

    Sorry for the long lesson but I the more you know the better your chances of figuring it out. I had to learn all this stuff the hard way on my own so I like to share when I can as others have here with me.

    Vernon



    Vernon

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    75

    Angry Talk about a Vision!

    Originally posted by J57ltr
    Thought I remember talking to you on the boards a few months ago because you wanted to change your bolt. Couldn't really remember what it was about. just found it.

    http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthre...&threadid=8340
    Correct I was going to change it for preventive maintenence....TOO LATE!
    Lee
    Last edited by Lugen; 04-01-2003 at 02:16 PM.

  10. #10
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    Jun 2002
    Location
    Somerset, Mass.
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    632
    Lugen

    Even if you changed that bolt the balancer would have died, the weakest link goes first. I think its better to have the bolt break and allow the balancer to walk forward. I'd rather have a stalled engine than run over that boat anchor we call a pulley.

    Aaron

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    75

    Smile Thanks,

    Hi,
    Thanks for the input guys.
    Vernon, I gave your letter to the mechanic to "help" him through this little delemia. He gave me a price between $300 and $500 for the job. He told me if the crank was shot (Which he doesn't) He would stop and let me know.
    This comes at a bad time due to the fact that I am ready to get a new Bike. So I decided to buy a old Yamaha and finaice my Sportster 1200 custom
    Thanks Again,
    Lee

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    27
    Thanks Vernon. Very informative. I have a question, if you want to change to underdrive pulleys can you remove the pins from the harmonic balancer with the balancer installed? It seems that taking them off (the balancer) and reinstalling is not a good plan. Thanks.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Magnolia Texas (Houston)
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    468
    Yes, with the plastic dampener shroud removed just use a small punch from the front to knock them out the back. Or grab them with some Vise Grips and twist them back and forth while pulling. They usually come out fairly easy. Might take a shot of Penetrating Blaster.

    Vernon

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