SC vs Grand National

Hello... I hope you folks realize you were talking about pickup trucks for a moment there.... hello?

I'll take the SC over the Buick any day. I'm not into who can go the fastest down the 1/4 mile. I'm into who is going to go fastest around that cloverleaf on Cedar Ave and 35E, then hunkers down comfortably for that 150mph pass through Nevada.
 
Right now, the MP magnaport II of your stock blower plus take out cats and install low cost MAF and cold air induction and for under $1000 you'll run with and possibly beat your friends GN. [/B]

So blower porting, intake, throttle body, low cost MAF and no cats will cost me under a grand and allow me to run 12's against his on race gas?? :rolleyes:

These parts seem to cost more than a grand to me?!?!? :confused:
http://www.magnumpowers.com/products_prices.html
 
For Late model:

Magnaport ($350), MAF ($150ish) (he didn't say TB), no cats or resonator(find a friend? $50 labor), and Pulley ($60), Underdrives ($160ish), ported IC tubes ($80??) gets you in around $900, what are stock GNs running, low 14s? Might be a push... of course it would help if you weigh a buck fifty and the guy in the GN is tons of fun ;-) (or brings his woman) (or both) (or even better if they are both tons of fun)

Paul (buck fifty-eight ;-)
 
Is dieting considered a mod? :D
Plus you save money on food to pay for more bolt on's. Can't lose!
 
Below are the facts on the GN....which didn't make serious hp till
1986. 1987 then saw some real improvements....

You still have to come to the conclusion that to get to a very respectable and fun level of 13s, the SC is infinitely more cost effective considering the car can be had now for $2000 or less.

You also have to conclude the GN was geared and designed for the quarter mile stop light crowd.
The SC was designed as a powerful performance sedan to go from "point a to point b" in competition with BMW.

In terms of "point a to b"....I would choose an SC over a GN anyday.

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/buick-grandnational/buick-grandnational.shtml
Comments: 1986 saw significant changes to the Grand National that would make it truly one of the best American performance cars of the mid-1980s. Buick added an air-to-air intercooler, adjusted the turbo, modified the upper and lower intake manifolds, and redesigned the exhaust system. All of these changes added up to a boost in power to 235 bhp and 330 lb-ft. Other changes included a revised front air dam with an opening in the center to allow cool air to reach the Intercooler duct and a revised grille with fine vertical bars.

But for the first time, there was another Grand National, the LeSabre Grand National. Only 117 were built to qualify the body for NASCAR competition. All LeSabre Grand Nationals were black (although white was also planned), and came with a sport suspension, 3.8 liter S.F.I V-6 leather warapped steering wheel, 15 inch alloy wheels with Goodyear Eagle GT tires and rear quarter window close-outs. The "Grand National" emblems on the front quarters were just like regular GN emblems, except that the Power Six logo was all red instead of two-tone red and yellow.

Production: Grand National: 5,512. LeSabre Grand National: 117.
Engines: 3.8L V6 Turbo 235 bhp @ 4000 rpm, 330 ft-lb @ 2400 rpm.


Comments: 1987 was the last year for the Regal and the Grand National, but Buick decided to go out with a bang (although the rear wheel drive G-body platform would last one more year until 1988). A whooping 26,555 Turbo Regals were sold, of which 20,193 were Grand Nationals. Buick made some changes to the powertrain and power increased to 245 bhp and 355 lb-ft. The grille was slightly revised, with the teeth set further apart and the Buick emblem siting on the left side. Chrome wheels also were new.

But the big news for 1987 was the introduction of the limited edition GNX. Only available for 1987, the Buick GNX represents the height of Grand National performance. In a nod to the famous Buick GSXs of 1970-1972, the GNX logo featured a larger "X" than the other letters, just like the GSX logo. All GNXs began life as fully optioned Grand Nationals that immediately left the factory and were sent to ASC/McLaren Specialty Products in order to be extensively modified. The modifications included a more efficient Garrett air-to-air intercooler and a special pipe that connected the intercooler to the engine coated with CERMATEL (Ceramic/aluminum) for increased heat rejection and heat disipation. Front fender vents were installed to pull heat away from the engine while driving. The GNX also received a special Garrett "hybrid" T-s turbocharger that used a very lightweight ceramic impeller (as opposed to metal in standard Grand Nationals). The decreased weight allows the turbo charger to spin up much faster, thereby decreasing the turbo lag time inherent in turbo charged engines. Maximum boost was set at 15 psi and the turbo used an electric wastegate. The turbo also incorporated special low drag, dynamic turbine shaft seals, and a built in contamination trap. All of these modifications added up to 275 bhp and a whooping 360 lb-ft. To handle this extra power, the transmission was beefed up with firmer shifts and the rear axle received a longitudinal torque ladder bar with a panhard rod to help prevent wheel hop and torque twist. It also received a special rear axle housing cover made of aluminum (with GNX embossed on it) that serves as an additional strengthening element and point for the torque bar. For even more strengthening, the car body received special structural reinforcements in the form of "behind the back seat bracing" and special chassis (steel cross member between the chassis rails) bracing. The GNX was the only Regal to ever receive 16 inch wheels. The wheels were made of a lightweight alloy and the rear wheels were wider than the front. The GNX came with P245/50VR16 tires in front and P255/50VR16 tires in the rear. Special welded in fender flares were added to the wheel wells to make room for the larger wheels and tires. The standard transmission was a reprogrammed Turbo Hydra-matic 200-4R four speed hooked up to a custom torque converter. Inside, the dash had a special Steward Warner analog gauge package. All GNXs were black in color and the only exterior identification was small "GNX" badges placed on the front radiator grille and rear deck lid. Under the hood, a special turbocharger heat shield had "GNX" stamped on it, similar to the aluminum rear axle cover. All GNXs received a special numbered plaque mounted on the passenger side dash which identified the number of that particular car (1-547). Also, the Fisher body plate has "GNX" stamped on it. Special "GNX" decals were used on the intercooler and other locations and there were several hidden I.D. stampings to prevent fakes. But all of this came at a price. The cost of the GNX option was a whopping $10,995, which resulted in a final MSRP of $29,900. All out performance doesn't come cheap.

Even more rare are the Buick Regal T-Type "Special T." These models had a Grand National exterior, but a Regal T-Type interior.

Production: Grand Nationals: 20,193 GNX: 547
Engines: Grand National: 3.8L V6 Turbo 245 bhp @ 4400 rpm, 355 ft-lb @ 2000 rpm. GNX: 3.8L V6 Turbo 276 bhp @ 4400 rpm, 360 ft-lb @ 3000 rpm.
Performance: Grand National: 1/4 mile in 14.23 seconds @ 98 mph. GNX: 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, 1/4 mile in 13.43 seconds @ 103 mph.
 
Who needs 13's

An SC would only be more cost effective since you can get one for $2K, but you realize a GN with JUST a chip, filter and exhaust will go 12's.

And it looks like you can get GN's for about $5K now........in probably the same shape that a $2K SC will be in.
 
After all that?
if you're talking 86 aor 87, I think you'd be lucky to get one for 5K.
If so then do buy one since you could probably maintain your investment.

I did some quick searches and see nothing for under 7.
Most of the ones I've seen outside for sale around here are fixed up, pretty clean, and get close to 10.

I think you mean a chip on the none X model, and assuming 86 or 87 year, will yield you 13s.

From all of this I think of one thing constructive.....looking at what they did on the GNX.....bringing cold air to the intercooler....I'm on my way now to Home Depot to get duckwork to bring cold air directly to the intercooler.

If you read my post "ram air works"....you can believe it....now I think there must be some gains to bring cold air directly to the intercooler....
 
Hard to find a good TR for $5k, in '86-87 models. There are always some who have gotten that "great buy", but on average they're $7-10k for one in good shape with 80k miles or so. When I was looking, there was a WE4 waaaaaay up north going for about $6,000 that was at about 90,000 miles. It was just too far and he didn't send much info or up close pictures. A stock TR is a lot more rare than a modified one, these days, and often means buying one with very low miles, that up's the price. Think I might rather have an 87 Turbo T. They're more rare, but don't go for as much as a GN.

Everything you ever wanted to know about Turbo Regals, for those interested:
http://www.gnttype.org/

As far as the drag times go, they're supposed to be really easy to get into the 12's, with little money. That's assuming that the 16+ year old car is in well mainained shape, just like SC's or any other used car. When they get old, there will also be those that weren't well maintained putting up slow numbers at the tracks, so you can't always go by what you've seen/heard.
They do ride well, just feel higher up than an SC. A little more closed in than an SC, but I don't see why you couldn't drive one everyday just fine. I'd be willing to try, if someone wants to donate one to me to give my SC a day off every now and then. ;)
That's why SC's and TR's are so cool. They're factory sleepers. Great performance, ride and even MPG, with room to still be a good daily driver. Most on the road these days don't know anything about these 2 cars.
 
plev72 said:
For Late model:

Magnaport ($350), MAF ($150ish) (he didn't say TB), no cats or resonator(find a friend? $50 labor), and Pulley ($60), Underdrives ($160ish), ported IC tubes ($80??) gets you in around $900, what are stock GNs running, low 14s? Might be a push... of course it would help if you weigh a buck fifty and the guy in the GN is tons of fun ;-) (or brings his woman) (or both) (or even better if they are both tons of fun)

Paul (buck fifty-eight ;-)

Re-read before you try and correct people. He said Magnaport II. Ypu need a throttle body and intake plenum with a Magnaport II. And a Magnaport II almost costs a grand alone.

Plus as i said, my friends car runs 12's with race fuel, race chip and slicks. A street tire, pump gas race and i'd still need to run 13's :rolleyes: And remember im at 3500+ ft of altitude ;)
 
Actually, I did see the part about it being a Magnaport II the first time around. I don't actually see on the Magnum Powers page where it says that the throttle body and plenum are mandatory in order to use the Magnaport II (although clearly they would produce increased benefits), even if you did need a bigger throttle body, I'm sure a late model used Throttle body could be picked up used fairly cheaply. Speaking of reread though - a Magnaport II only costs a $1000 if you need it overnighted... standard Magnaport II is $449 - but I'll go halfs with you on the misreading ;-)

Paul
 
Well....OK, so $5000 GN's don't grow on trees. ONe thing I noticed when looking for GN's just now is that (1) they fall from $7-$10K and (2) they are usually in REALLY DAMN GOOD SHAPE! They do not compare at all to the older SC's.

I imagine an 89-90 SC with the same mileage (30,000-80,000) and same condition would be worth $4000-$5000 easy.

I did find a 87 T-Type with 129K miles for $5000..........which would be more comparible to your $2500 89 SC with 129+ miles.



Micah
 
True. If you know what you're doing, you can pick up a high mileage one and rebuild from there. I've seen some very nice looking cars for that 5000 range, just high mileage.
There was one on a local car lot at ~130,000 miles, lots of rattles and needed some work. They were asking $12,000. That was nuts, but they do that a lot since they know they'll eventually sell to someone who isn't going to travel to get one (and doesn't know any better). It was a $6000 car at best. They're already being treated as collector's cars, which is raising the prices.
 
The beauty of the SC in terms of getting a deal is the fact that there are still 100s of them out there within your reack with under 100K miles and in good shape, but owners will give up on them due to the fact that Ford will charge a fortune for crank sensor replacement, radiator, water pump, tune up, etc...things that will surface around 100K miles.

Thanks to XR7Dave's easy crank sensor replacement, the fact that you can trash the bracket hanging off the water pump, and many other work great arounds you find here....the maintenence cannot be considered in the bad range. I've worked on cars where a radiator replacement or alternator was a RPITA.

Helping to make this all possible is the fact that most people at Ford don't even know anything about them.

I have 6, I've paid an average of just over $2300 for all of them over the last 7 years....and they were all "good deals"....and since put over 200K miles on them between me and the wife.....most of the miles being on my 5 speed which now has 202K miles and still is solid.

Although I have to say I see less and less of the obvious "good deals"....those I continue to look at are coming down in price. The wife says 6 is too many obviously, but I continue to look.

Try to look in local papers... avoid the supercoupe pages or anyone that has knowledge of them....although there are examples of people that have come there out of desperation to sell their "problem car".

My favorite year is 92, and you're still in a zone of availability where 100K miles or thereabouts is about right.

If you see any GN going low, I'd be wary....and with that vintage car I know guys that can turn odometers blindfolded.
 
I know someone w/ a 40k GN in perfect condition going for 16k. It was bought with 30k for about 13k. The Turbo Buicks are neat cars, but their value is increasing quickly. I wanted one of these or a Monte Carlo as my first car several years ago, but the prices were ridiculous even then. Now a Monte Carlo sells for 10k in good condition, and from a technical standpoint there is nothing significant about the car!
 
plev72 said:
Actually, I did see the part about it being a Magnaport II the first time around. I don't actually see on the Magnum Powers page where it says that the throttle body and plenum are mandatory in order to use the Magnaport II (although clearly they would produce increased benefits), even if you did need a bigger throttle body, I'm sure a late model used Throttle body could be picked up used fairly cheaply. Speaking of reread though - a Magnaport II only costs a $1000 if you need it overnighted... standard Magnaport II is $449 - but I'll go halfs with you on the misreading ;-)

Paul


Because the Magnaport II changes the back of the case, the plenum is changed to a square, as opposed to the stock oval opening. So it probably does require a new plenum, even if its not a neccesity, a plenum that overlaps the new rear intake shape of the blower would hinder efficiency greatly.

But lets say that i sent it to get it ported, and with the plenum alone it came to a grand. I would still not be running 13's at this altitude on street tires. Which is what time i would need to be achieving in order to keep up to this GN, which i said was slightly modded.

And if i just got what you listed above, do u think i could pick up a second and a half??? Lets be honest with ourselves.


No points taken off for me not reading. I'm gonna let you take all the blame here ;) :cool::rolleyes:
 
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Oh yeah! Well :p

Paul

(aspiring post whore... hey, wait a minute, this was my post in the first place! ;-)
 
Well, this post has gone the long circle back to comparing a GN to an SC. I think we already covered about every aspect of the topic. Bottom line is that the GN is not really the "sweet car" that people hype it up to be and that the SC will never be as fast as a GN as long as it has an M90 restricting airflow to the motor and the extra baggage caused by those things we love so much - low unsprung weight independant suspension, 5spd, great stereo, 16" wheels, 4 wheel discs, real anti-roll bars, room for 4 fullsize adults and a kid, luggage space, no speed limits and a fold down back seat. Have a nice day ok?

:)
 
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