Hemmings Mag

ThunderRoad

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OCT O3 ISSUE OF MUSLE CARS ON PAGE 88 ......HAS AND SC DYNO TEST ......................ONE THING IT SHOWS .IS LOSSOF POWER WHEN USING A BIGGER MAF AND INTAKE........A CHIP HAD TO BE USED IT GET BACK THE LOSS ..................GOOD READING .....FAST FREDDEI:rolleyes: :cool: :confused: :D
 
We'd need the full title of the magazine. Is it in hemmings motor news, or the Hemmings Muscle Machines?
 
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Hemmings Muscle Machines.
https://www.hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/subscribe.hmmsub

Im looking forward to reading the article myself as my personal vehicle was used for the testing as well as parts I sell. It is supposed to hit newstands next week. I havent received my subsription as of yet. I kept this quiet as I wasnt sure when the magazine was coming out till a few days ago.

Paul

[edit] A chip was not used for the tuning. A piggyback system was installed (which works on nearly any vehicle with the proper installion) that alters what the EEC sees was used for this article. I will be offering it for select (not SC) vehicles and on site installation and tuning in the near future.[/edit]
 
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Yeah piggyback systems are pretty neat Paul. Why not on an SC?
We've used them for years on forced induction motors with real good success. Which piggyback system you using?
 
I am using a EEC tuner in my car. In our application, it is superior in versatility as well as tuning ability to the piggy back system and cheaper. An example of this is its lack of ability to alter fan temps or idle speed. On the other hand, it has the ability to control an additional fuel injector for high boost or nitrous appications with its built in injector driver.
That isnt to say the piggy back didnt do its job nor that it isnt a quality piece, it simply isnt the best way to go for us.

Paul
 
EEC tuners cheaper? From who and how much?
I would realy like to see some good info on the EEC tuners. Could you direct me to some?
What little bit I've found I have to say I'm not impressed. All the info I have seen on it(and I admit it has'nt been alot) sure made the thing look hard as hell to use. I mean writing files and downloading into the tuner and downloading back out of the tuner just doesnt sound very good to me at all.
I dont know maybe I got it all wrong, but I sure would like to see some info that I can set down and realy go through it.
Can you help out here Paul?
 
I am sure you have seen the tuner which is available from Shiftmaster (www.EEC-Tuner.com) or Rich T (www.MN12Performance.com). I want to get a forum started on the SCCoA on tuning and have emailed George about this over the weekend. I am sure I will hear more on it this week. The tuner can be complicated and overwhelming when first looked at. For the most part, it is complicated to the DIYer that doesnt have enough background on how our cars work or what principals apply in our application. I personally havent done much with the tuner as of yet as my focus has been elsewhere for the moment.

I intend on diving in deeply in the upcoming month or so though. I dont feel any of the people offering tuning services currently or in the future can properly tune for drivability as well as WOT through emailing files. Most of the things the tuner can effect and that will benefit people IMO is daily drivability as well as economy. If its WOT performance you are after, by all means go get a chip from Brian or the like and call it a day.

It is only to everyones benefit if we can get a broader sharing of knowledge base on this. Browsing the EEC tuner forum on Yahoo groups and reading over notes and questions on the boards are where I have acquired my limited knowledge of the unit.
I mean writing files and downloading into the tuner and downloading back out of the tuner just doesnt sound very good to me at all.
This is the easiest part of using the tuner. Understanding how your changes affected the vehicle for the better or worse and what additional changes need to take place IMHO are the hardest part. Lets see if we can get a forum started and go from there.

Paul
 
Thanks for the Shift Masters link Paul. But the site only raised some big qeustions for me.
1. When asked if the tuner would work on other Fords that were NOT listed(only Mustangs listed) Shift Masters reply was
"NO- Not really so this leads to Q 2.
2. Since Shift Master is NOT supporting any other cars besides the Mustang this leads me to think the SC versions are hacked Mustang Tuners done by another party. Is that the case?
3. Shift Masters states on there site that the only computer operating system there software works on is Windows NT and Windows 95. Now this has to be a joke! But is it true?
4. I could not find anything telling me if I would get anytype of info on understanding any of the info there software would produce, kinda like if you change this it affects that.....you know what I mean. Where do we get the info needed to decipher the code?
5. Shift Masters states on there site that there is NO waranty and you buy it as is. What are they smoking? I build computer systems and I have never bought a chip or any boards that did not have a waranty and could not get a replacement or refund on DOA parts. What gives here? Is that true, NO waranty?

I'm not trying to sound pesamistic about the Tuner as I would really like to learn about it and understand the thing. But as it stands now the picture painted so far is pretty dark. Let me explain what I mean by that.

I buy a tuner for $380.00 and then I have to have someone else write me files for another fee and this keeps going on untill we find the majic spot. So to get started I need a $380.00 Tuner a $25.00 starter file for a total of $405.00 and thats not the end of it. At $25.00 a file I could see eating up another $100.00 just trying to tune the thing and it could be more!

Another thing I'm not liking very much is the fact that for that kind off money this thing should datalog as well, But no.....According to Shift Masters that is extra. Give me a break this little thingy costs more than the whole ECU and doesnt do 1/4 of the things a ECU does...so why so pricey?

Dont get me wrong Paul I'm not trying to start any trouble about the thing and I certainly am not trying cause any problems between you and I. I'm just wanting answers and I never realy see any. Everytime the tuner is mentioned the conversations seem very vague at best.
I realize that I have gone on too long in this post and I'm sorry for that. But do you think that you could shed some light on the things I've mentioned here and I'll leave you alone.
Thanks for taking the time to talk to me about this.:)
 
1. When asked if the tuner would work on other Fords that were NOT listed(only Mustangs listed) Shift Masters reply was
"NO- Not really so this leads to Q 2.

Well, the tuner MN12 sells is a shiftmaster piece. It simply uses software that is for the SC. If you look deeper into the shiftmaster site, you will see that the site is old and most of the pages have not been updated which is why that statement is listed.

2. Since Shift Master is NOT supporting any other cars besides the Mustang this leads me to think the SC versions are hacked Mustang Tuners done by another party. Is that the case?
MN12 with the help of Spiro (former SC owner and computer whiz) came up with all the addresses to edit the EEC in our car by reading the processor. Hacked you could call it, I look at it as deciphered information.

3. Shift Masters states on there site that the only computer operating system there software works on is Windows NT and Windows 95. Now this has to be a joke! But is it true?
Win 95 and up are based on NT technology and the software works on 98, NT, 2000 and XP. (not sure about Me)

4. I could not find anything telling me if I would get any type of info on understanding any of the info there software would produce, kinda like if you change this it affects that.....you know what I mean. Where do we get the info needed to decipher the code?
The software for the most part does not tell you what does what. That is a primary reason why I would like to get a tuning forum started on the BBS. Everyone has something to contribute and if we all share what we know, tuning the car will become much easier. There are many people currently using the software who have some experience, post up for them to start a discussion, again this is where a tuning forum would be helpfull. Take a look
HERE for a peek at how things work. If you buy the tuner from Rich, he will also aid you in using the tuner.
5. Shift Masters states on there site that there is NO waranty and you buy it as is. What are they smoking? I build computer systems and I have never bought a chip or any boards that did not have a waranty and could not get a replacement or refund on DOA parts. What gives here? Is that true, NO waranty?
I cannot speak for shiftmaster, again, their site is not very current, email them and see what they have to say. Also, ask Rich what his policy is, I know a few people have had tuners that were bad from Rich in the past and he made right by them.

I buy a tuner for $380.00 and then I have to have someone else write me files for another fee and this keeps going on untill we find the majic spot. So to get started I need a $380.00 Tuner a $25.00 starter file for a total of $405.00 and thats not the end of it. At $25.00 a file I could see eating up another $100.00 just trying to tune the thing and it could be more!
Any decent tuner will write the base file and corrective file for the base price. Usually, 2-3 files need to be used before meeting that happy medium. Example: Base file yields good WOT power, however, runs rich at 4000RPM, fuel curve needs to be adjusted....Next file fuel curve is correct but car is pinging a bit, some timing needs to be removed. HOWEVER, this is where things get choppy, lets say you build a monster motor, toss in a monster fuel pump, upgrade your fuel lines and run 50lb/hr injectors and the tune is all worked out. You are now thinking great, EEC tuner fixed my woes, motor makes gobs of power and car pulls like a top fueler, but wait! It doesnt like to idle, low RPM stumbling and poping occurs and fuel economy sucks! Well, thats the boat I am in, could it be fixed through emailing files? Kinda, but it will never be right unless you or someone else adjusts the file realtime, in person. Thats the drawback and thats the limitation which I oppose. It is also the problem I have with my 93 and the reason why I am learning how to use the tuner myself, no one knows my car like me just as you and your car and so on and so on. <edit>Add into the cost some quality dyno time, its a must regardless of whether you use an EEC tuner or other tuning method if you want to do it right.</edit>
Another thing I'm not liking very much is the fact that for that kind off money this thing should datalog as well, But no.....According to Shift Masters that is extra. Give me a break this little thingy costs more than the whole ECU and doesnt do 1/4 of the things a ECU does...so why so pricey?
It does datalog, you will need some software and it is only available on 91+ processors (could be wrong on the year, someone correct me please) because the cars PCM doesnt support it. This is one of the reasons why George D swapped in a newer year PCM on his SWB5. Remember this, you are looking at the price from a perspective of a consumer buying an electronic product just like if you bought a computer for example. Shiftmaster is not Dell or Toshiba, it is a small company that buys small volume of product to make the parts. Everyone has to start somewhere and the fact that we even have the tuner to use is a wonder in itself. This brings to mind that an old MM&FF mag had an article on the EEC tuner used in a stang, see if Vernon has it handy, I believe he keeps a library of them.

Dont get me wrong Paul I'm not trying to start any trouble about the thing and I certainly am not trying cause any problems between you and I. I'm just wanting answers and I never realy see any. Everytime the tuner is mentioned the conversations seem very vague at best.
I realize that I have gone on too long in this post and I'm sorry for that. But do you think that you could shed some light on the things I've mentioned here and I'll leave you alone.
Thanks for taking the time to talk to me about this.

No problem at all, we all need to learn from experience or someone else and start somewhere. I agree about the vagueness of this product. I am always happy to help out when I can so feel free to fire away on the questions or contact me via email or phone. I am always available to help out SCers (well, when Im not working one of my other 2 jobs {and even then I take calls if I can, just ask Paul Levine:D} or sleeping), regardless if they are clients or not. Remember, this is more of a hobby for me than a business and though I take the business seriously, I am not in it for the money.
 
ok, there is waaay too much writing here! If i wanna get more horsepower, the first thing i'm going for is an intake... now, if this is all true, about the loss of power w/ larger MAF, TB and Intake then what chip do i have to buy, or what do i have to do to regain it?
 
I think one of the mistakes that a lot of people make with both the tuner board and chips in general is that they expect the tuner to make the car run. If your car doesn't run decently without a tuner, then tuning can be a real headache. I think this is a mistake made all too often by enthusiastic SC'ers.

Selecting the right parts in the first place such that the car runs well on it's own is the first step in successful tuning. A chip or tuner file can then be used for tweaking the system on a dyno or at the track for optimum performance. However no chip or tuner is a substitute for a responsible selection of parts. I do not suggest that a tuner or chip be one of the first things a person do. Rather it should be one of the last.

That being said I run an EEC Tuner with a base file from Dr. Fred. It has not been tweaked or dyno tuned. Our car has more than sufficient performance for all but the most demanding of owners and also runs mildly enough for day to day driving. It runs pretty well without the tuner file as well. I've had the tuner for about 3 years and have been happy with it though I really haven't tweaked it at all myself.
 
motocross_masta, I haven't even read the article yet so don't necessarily go by what is written there. To address getting more horsepower, I think the first things you should establish are what if any mods do you currently have, what are your goals and what is your budget. After you know firmly the answers to these questions, you will be able to seek out more power in a more safe (for the vehicle) and organized way.

I have to agree with Dave for the most part and hope that no one takes my application as anything near stock. I have assembled and installed a collection of parts in the car to take it to the extreme and as a result have issues that need to be dealt with through tuning. This is something I already prepared myself for when making my parts selection and decisions. I look at those people who are considering the purchase and use of the tuner as those who have done their homework and are at a stage where they can appreciate its value.

Paul
 
EEC tuner...

I have been doing as much research as i can on the tuner. It seems to be the holy grail of all products for tuning our cars or others for that matter. To begin i have been on the link Mike38SC posted about the EEC and how it works (in the FAQ section) and read it a few times. Being a CIS student myself it has me very interested.
To begin, i am not in the market to get a tuner. I would like to have one down the line but i dont have the money for one now nor enough of mods on my car for it to even be affective. (Well, maybe i do i will have to find out.) I understand the the EEC runs off of pre-programmed flow charts (If rpm @ 2500 AND tps under 50% AND egr open THEN.. etc. etc. etc.) and must be based off of some language. And that is the key here that has me confused. The flowchart/hierarchy chart is a programmers first step, after that you have to 1) know what the hell you are doing 2)always be aware of what you named something in your procedure. So i think i know where Mike is coming from here. Where can we find the "Rosetta Stone" for the code the ford guys used. I guess all the tuner does is alter the original code. I wouldnt see it writing a whole new procedure for it, that wouldnt make as much sense as tapping in and changing this and that as you please. If it is DOS based we couldnt be so lucky to just type D:> give me 2 more pounds of fuel.
Paul: The tuner forum would be a great idea dude. I would love to get a better idea of the goings on with the tuner and hear what everyone else is doing with it. I hope i didnt come off like i am venting frustration about the tuner to you or anyone, hell i dont even have one i just wanna learn. Like Mike said $25 for this file $25 for that file, when with some help it could be done yourself. Ok, kinda long, intersted on feedback. PS Paul, what is up with your web page? I want to see your product list.
 
PS Paul, what is up with your web page? I want to see your product list.

I would like to say Im a slacker and leave it at that, but the truth remains that time is something I lack. I am fortunate enough that one of my 2 other jobs outside BTM allows me internet access to paruse the boards, however, I cannot sit and build web pages on that time. I also have this problem with paying someone to do what I can do myself so that doesnt help either. For those reasons, I wont give a time schedule but will say if you need something, please ask, if I dont have or cant get it, I can point you in the right direction.

Paul
 
It sounds like some people might be intimidated by the "non user friendly" interface of the EEC tuner. I think many people here may also know a lot more about cars than computers. But really that's no problem. It doesn't require programming or any fancy computer skills. You're just entering values in a text file (actually there are GUI programs too). Once you learn what all the values mean, it's easy to make your own changes to the file. It's much more important to have an understanding of fuel, timing, and other factors in engine operation. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't be messing with the EEC tuner!

BTW, data maps for the SC are determined from reverse engineering in the same way that every Mustang calibration has been determined. Ford doesn't publish this stuff, so it's up to enthusiasts to figure it out.

PAUL - quit makin excuses :D if you send me your data (product descriptions/pictures/prices/etc) I would do your web pages for free, it's really no big deal...
 
EEC-Tuners work by using hooks in the hardware/software package in the EEC-IV system. There is a diagnostic port on the hardware that allows for certain things to occur. The main thing that it allows is access to certain parts of the (for lack of a better term) memory of the EEC-IV. Mechanically I'm not certain if the Tuner always loads maps over top of existing memory locations at power up, or if the tuner redirects the EEC-IV to look into the tuner for values. Though I think it is the first one.

The EEC-IV hardware/software system doesn't exist as code like you might be thinking. I believe it is very similar to assembly language. They use a Intel chip.

Here is a link to even more info you can download on the EEC including a simulator you can run on a pc. (in dos mode no doubt)

http://www.kvitek.com/ford/

Wow.. there is a lot of stuff on the EEC-IV. Search the web and you'll find more stuff like this one:

http://acc-electronics.com/cloud/efi/amarch/eec.htm

Build your own EEC tuner!
 
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Yeah I was up till 4:00 AM looking at tuner stuff and finaly found what I was looking for. Not such a big deal really, it just sounded worse than it really is.
Reminds me of flashing a BIOS on my computers.
It would be neat if I didnt need a tuner board and could just plug a comp or palm pilot into it with the flash software and set it up like I want like with my DSM car. The software to do that only costs $125 and youre set.
I'll just wait and see if I need one or not. It just doesnt light a fire in me.
I plan to pester Spiro about it some though.:D
 
if you noticed, the problem is that the prom in the EEC computers is non-standard and requires some additional hardware and logic to interface to more industry standard parts. The nice thing with the ODB-II compliant motors is that the data bus is much more standard, thus the wide amount of software out there to talk to them.

It also appears that there is more variation in the EEC-IV implementations across all the ford product lines.
 
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