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Thread: I give up.... new rims question...(again)

  1. #1
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    I give up.... new rims question...(again)

    After really trying to get to the bottom of a tire imbalance issue, I've come to the conclusion based on the opinion of a local expert that the particular rims that I have are really not the highest quality and I should exchange them. However, this also presents me with an oppurtunity to get my money back for the rims and start over.

    Some of you may know that I'm running a 255-50ZR-17 tire on a 17x7.5" rim. Although the size fits without problems, it's not optimum in it's abiltiy to turn quickly and react to steering angle changes. In other words it still feels about as rubbery (maybe even more so in regards to steering response) as the stock 60 series tires did.

    So, I plan to keep the tires (I only put like 400 miles on them) but now need direction for a new set of 17" rims. There was another set of rims that I wanted made by O.Z. racing (that is a high quality rim right?) that was a 17x8" rim. Or should I just do what everyone else is doing and get a set of Cobra R replicas and run 17x9" all around?????

    I'm tired of chasing tire imbalance issues and most likely the "stuffed" tires on the narrow rims may be casuing it and I'd like to eliminate that if it is a possible cause.

  2. #2
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    If you're going to spend money on wheels again, does it make much sense to get ones that are only 1/2" wider ?

    Either go for 8-1/2" or 9" wheels, or slighty smaller rubber.



    cheers
    Ed N.

  3. #3
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    Thanks ed!

    I guess that is my best bet. Got any recommendations? I'm still going to run the stock T-bird Bolt pattern. I know it limits me, but I'm sure that there are some great options out there. I'm not sure that I'm looking in all the right places though.

    Oh, FYI those O.Z Racing 17x8" rims are discontinued anyway I just called today about them.....

    So I'm really in a pickle. I want to run the 255 or wider rubber but also want to eliminate tire imbalance causes and excessive tread unresponsiveness in relation to steering angle.

    SO anyone out there who has 17x8.5 or 17x9" rims in the T-bird bolt pattern what do you have and where did you got them? I'm looking for some brands here? Thanks all.

  4. #4
    Why on earth did you go with the narrower rims to begin with?

  5. #5
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    "Why on earth did you go with the narrower rims to begin with?"

    Because I thought that I could save a few lbs of unsprung mass with a lightweight 17x7.5 vs. getting a very heavy cast 17x9" rim.

    In reality the biggest size that I should be toying with on a 7.5" rim is a 235mm tire size.

    So Now I've got 255's. And I like them, they've got a good contact patch, I would even like to go wider even someday. So now I need to consider 17x8.5" and 17x9" rim brands in the T-bird bolt pattern. What about those ROH snypers? Where can those be found?

    What are others here running? I wanna hear about them and the prices and where to get them?

  6. #6
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    DEEP6..

    I have never heard of such an explanation of tire balance with a machined aluminum Wheel. They are inherently the easiest to balance regardless of brand names and such. If the wheel is sound and round then it should not be the problem. In most cases I have seen "Family Owned Tire Business" and heard of it is the tire that can be flawed in its construction at times, and this is VERY rare...I would not go to the expenses that you are considering unless I just wanted out of the wheels in the first place...If you find a Tire Shop that has a Match Balancer, this device and many like them can deceifer for you if the wheel is bad or the tire is the problem.

    The tire dimension issue you mentioned...If the tire is a bit wide for the rim width this is not really desirable but is not a HUGE issue, and definatley has nothing to do with the balancing of the wheel and tire.

    Pretty much you need to find a shop that know what they are talking about and doing IMO....BTW The big chain stores are not always the best place to find deep knowledge either...

    Good luck


    Brad

  7. #7
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    Deep6, I believe we went over this in great detail some time ago. :P Some people just won't listen.

    Several things to consider which I think were covered before.

    1. Wheels can be out of round. Not likely, but possible. Firstly, are the "hub centric"? ie. do they self center snugly on the hubs or do you have to center them with the lug nuts? If they are hub centric, then you can put them on a balance machine and check the runout of the wheels (both lateral and radial). If they are less than .040" then it is within factory tolerances (ie. as good as a factory wheel). Some better wheels are manufactured to .020" tolerance.

    2. Obviously you can also check the tires this way also. If the rims are decent (they usually are), then it's time to look at the tires. Have they been match mounted? Do they require large amounts of weight? Like it or not tires are the usual culprits.

    3. You have chosen to mismatch the tires with narrow rims. This is bad juju. With a properly matched rim and tire combination the bead of the tire carries it's load directly on the bead surface of the rim. When the tire is too wide, then the lip of the rim starts to influence things by putting pressure on the actual sidewall of the tire. The sidewall of the tires is not made as precisely as the bead and so it can prevent the tire from running true like it is designed.

    4. Not to mention that you put a heavy tire on your light weight rims. Why did you do that again? I think we recommended a 235/55 to you in the beginning. Lower weight, lower rolling resistance, and a correct match tread width to rim width. Hmmm, imagine that? I'll say it again, the tread should be no more than 1/2" wider than the rim. The lower the aspect ratio, the more crucial this becomes.

    You already had these "road force balanced" right? Unless you have runout problems with either the wheels, I vote that you need to get different tires. 17X9's are going to be either super heavy or super expensive. DT will take the tires back if you tell them that they suck and you want new ones.

    Good luck!

    David
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    Email me here.

  8. #8
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    Unhappy A more detailed response dave.. et al.

    "Deep6, I believe we went over this in great detail some time ago. :P Some people just won't listen."

    Ok so I'm stubborn... sue me!!!


    "Several things to consider which I think were covered before.

    1. Wheels can be out of round. Not likely, but possible. Firstly, are the "hub centric"? ie. do they self center snugly on the hubs or do you have to center them with the lug nuts? If they are hub centric, then you can put them on a balance machine and check the runout of the wheels (both lateral and radial). If they are less than .040" then it is within factory tolerances (ie. as good as a factory wheel). Some better wheels are manufactured to .020" tolerance."


    yes, this is where I'm starting to think. I took my car to a specialty auto clinic that specializes in tire/rim installations especially "high performance" applications. The owner of the shop has a Mitsu 3000GT VR4 with over 600hp. He seems to know what he is talking about. But back to the rims. I have "hub- centric rings that allow my wheels to be centered before tightening the lugs down. I was using a set of wheel spacers and the vibes were worse. I tossed the wheel spacers and had the guy grind down about 1/4" off of the bottom of the upper ball joint up front. This solved my up front rubbing problem. When he mounted up a second tire for me due to excessive road force, he noted that that particular rim didn't have the best runout.



    "2. Obviously you can also check the tires this way also. If the rims are decent (they usually are), then it's time to look at the tires. Have they been match mounted? Do they require large amounts of weight? Like it or not tires are the usual culprits."

    His thinking behind the rims that I am running is that they are of inferior quality being manufactured in the Phillipeans (sp?)
    He said that he had a set of my rims too and bent them in a couple of days of driving on NY streets. 3 of the 4 wheels do not require large amounts of weights but the last wheel in question did. However it was the second new tire tried....


    "3. You have chosen to mismatch the tires with narrow rims. This is bad juju. With a properly matched rim and tire combination the bead of the tire carries it's load directly on the bead surface of the rim. When the tire is too wide, then the lip of the rim starts to influence things by putting pressure on the actual sidewall of the tire. The sidewall of the tires is not made as precisely as the bead and so it can prevent the tire from running true like it is designed."

    Hey don't talk about my juju like that! However, what you are talking about here is making some sense and that is why I might be running into some problems. Even though the rims/tires read as "balanced" when actually running them in a real load situation, in effect things are "out of round". Hence, I would like to keep the 255 series tire but run the larger rim to rule out his scenaro.


    "4. Not to mention that you put a heavy tire on your light weight rims. Why did you do that again? I think we recommended a 235/55 to you in the beginning. Lower weight, lower rolling resistance, and a correct match tread width to rim width. Hmmm, imagine that? I'll say it again, the tread should be no more than 1/2" wider than the rim. The lower the aspect ratio, the more crucial this becomes. "

    Yes yes, I know now. I see everyone running big tread on their cars and I wanted a peice of that cake too!!! I confess, I wanted to try and figure out some "other" way of accomplishing it... but it didn't work out perfectly. In my mind.... a 235mm tire is only 10mm wider than stock.... what's the point? Why invest the money? Lower Rolling resistance? Is this why I'm having even more trouble getting good mileage out of my car since switching tires?


    "You already had these "road force balanced" right? Unless you have runout problems with either the wheels, I vote that you need to get different tires. 17X9's are going to be either super heavy or super expensive. DT will take the tires back if you tell them that they suck and you want new ones."

    Yes, I've had the assemblies "Hunter 9700 Road Force balanced" 3 times now. I took them to the dealership where a buddy (who owns 2 SC's himself and definatly knows what he's talking about) balanced them. However the best that his machine would do was about just under 20Lbs for 3 wheels and no less than 48lbs for the offending wheel.

    When I took my car to the auto clinic, he told me that he makes sure to calibrate his Hunter 9700 on a weekly basis and he assured me that he could get my wheels under 10lbs per wheel of road force. That is what he recommended for a smooth ride. He was able to accomplish this again on the other 3 wheels but the best he could do with the offending wheel with a brand new tire was 25lbs. He mounted that one in the back so I wouldn't feel it as much.

    So far HIS balancing act has been the "best". I'm able to drive the car smoothly... for the most part between 45mph and 55mph. However, just today i did extended highway driving on them and most of my driving was 70-75mph and I could visibly see the wristwatch on my right wrist shimmying with the steering wheel. When I let go of the wheel, I could see it slightly shaking back and forth. I would think this is more than just the "increased road feel" of a lower aspect ratio. I've also noticed that the first 2-3 miles of driving, even on smooth pavement gives me a little more vibe too. This was all observed on freshly paved asphalt.

    My alingment is "dead on" and the auto clinic guy did a good job of it. My problem though is vibe through the steering wheel that just cannot be quelled. Perhaps then, is another portion of my front suspension/steering system excessivly worn? I've got about 90K miles on my car. But I've always driven it safe and sane on the streets and haven't raced it... yet.

    Overall, the feeling here is excessive runout on the rims, not neccesarily the tires. My hope is to just eliminate the steady background shake by just doing the right thing and running the proper sized rims. So D.T. said they would take the rims back and refund my money but I want to know what my options are as far as a nice 17x8.5 or 17x9" rim in the 4.25" bolt pattern that aren't known for vibes.

  9. #9
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    Back to the top I go...

    This one is a 17x9 and it is available in silver painted for $152.00 from www.Peformancewheeloutlet.com. It says they have it available in T-bird, Lincoln Mark 8 and Tarus bolt patterns.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Deep6; 10-28-2003 at 11:22 AM.

  10. #10
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    Hey, 03 Cobra wheels !! They look pretty good in machine-finish on my car. Be careful of Performance Wheel Outlet though, some people have had trouble dealing with them, some cases of bad service. Notice they don't even know what year the rims are replicas of.


    cheers
    Ed N.

  11. #11
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    Good eye ed..

    Yeah, after seeing your SC with the 03 Cobra's on it, I was like in my mind "those look so kick Azzz".

    I'd like to pick them up but I'm not sure who manufacturers them.

    I looked at Dantedesigns web site and they are the ones who manufacture the Cobra R and Y2K Cobra rims as well as motorsport versions of both. But for the T-bird the Y2K Cobra's are only available in chrome (read: heavier than need be and way too much 'look at me'). And of course everyone and their mother has Cobra R's. (Not that they look bad or nuthin', I just wanted to try something different). So i don't know what company supplies those 03' Cobra knock offs. Of course on PWO's web site it says 02 cobra's.

    I think I'd give PWO a call first just to confirm the 4x25" bolt pattern, and offset dimensions. I'm sure they are significantly heavier than the rims I have now, but if I want to run a 255mm tire, I guess I have to take it in the butt as far as unsprung mass is concerned.

    My other "gotta have it" choice is the ROH Snyper. I'm pretty sure that is a 17x9 rim with a T-bird bolt pattern. But I'm not sure where to order from? I haven't seen them for sale anywhere on the internet.

    If there are some other obvious choices that I'm missing, please butt in!!!!!! I'd like to know what other's are running and where to get them and how much?

  12. #12
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    Cool I found this lying around...

    I saw a dealer,.www.jdwheels.com sells it for $210 each in the 17x9.

    Ed, I know you used to have these, they came in the T-bird bolt pattern right? What was the offset? How much did they wiegh?

    I went towww.wheelweights.net but they don't list the 17x9" size.

    Ed (or anyone else for that matter) have you run into balance problems with the REAL 03' cobras your running or the ROH snypers you used to run, or even the 18" Fittipaldi's?

    Maybe my problem is my aluminum driveshaft or something else causing the prob....
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    Last edited by Deep6; 10-28-2003 at 11:16 AM.

  13. #13
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    Deep 6,

    I've heard a lot of bad things about PWO, so beware. You might want to check this place out. I bought my heavy a$$ wheels from them.

    http://www.wheelsmarket.com/

    David
    1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
    2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat.............10.597 @ 135.78

    My Garage

  14. #14
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    Re: I found this lying around...

    Originally posted by Deep6


    Maybe my problem is my aluminum driveshaft or something else causing the prob....
    Do you have a spare set or a buddy that can swap wheels with you for a few days to make sure you're travelling down the right road (pun not intended)? If you're second guessing something else at this point this might become a REALLY expensive learning lesson for you.
    I'd hate to be your wheel dealer if it didn't work out.

  15. #15
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    "Deep6" i have some other rare rims you wont see on to many SC's... For Sale. B/O...

    http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthre...threadid=36119

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