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Thread: SC on Propane

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Vermont
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    136
    Regardless whether it is N2O, air, or even pure oxygen, You have to provide extra fuel OR YOU WILL GO LEAN. All nitrous systems provide extra fuel. In a wet system the fuel is provided from a jet mounted with the nitrous. In a dry system the extra fuel is provided through the injectors via increased fuel pressure. You can't just add the air, if it is added after the maf the computer doesn't see it and it will run lean.
    I fail to see why this needed to be stated. Obviously if you know how much air you are injecting, you can re-calibrate the fuel system, or use a nitrous kit but replace the bottle with a high pressure air pump. then all you have to do is re-calibrate the kit so it puts in the right ammount of fuel.

    Then you have a large cooling effect, more power, and an end-less supply of injected air rather than having to fill up a bottle all the time.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Milford, Michigan
    Posts
    1,398

    Talking Air injection

    Air injection is a good idea. In fact I've been running it since I had my SC. The previous owner must have set it up cause it was like that when I bought it. It's a sweet setup. There's a belt driven air compressor bolted to my intake manifold and it sucks the air right through the MAF and is regulated by the throttle body so the computer knows how much air is being added. It adds loads of power cause it pumps compressed air right into the engine.


  3. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    St. Charles, MO
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    20,899
    I fail to see why this needed to be stated. Obviously if you know how much air you are injecting, you can re-calibrate the fuel system, or use a nitrous kit but replace the bottle with a high pressure air pump. then all you have to do is re-calibrate the kit so it puts in the right ammount of fuel.

    Then you have a large cooling effect, more power, and an end-less supply of injected air rather than having to fill up a bottle all the time.
    There are several problems with doing this. a few of them are as follows.

    Compressed air will be hot.
    Volume of air required will be more than an average shop compressor could supply.
    Compression of the air will cause condensation.
    Additional HP will be needed to run the compressor, probably more than it would make.
    Additional fuel will only be needed when compressed air is being used, since the volume of air and fuel required will vary with engine RPMs you can't just re-calibrate the fuel system.
    Like Jeff said the car is already equiped with a device that performs the function you are describing, it's called the supercharger.

    David
    1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
    2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat...............707HP/650TQ

    My Garage

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    New Tripoli, PA
    Posts
    500
    so let me get this straight. you run propane instead of gas? is that right what i am getting out of this? so i can turn my sc into a barbecue grill? cook up some hot dogs and hambugers on the trunk lid, woohoo.

    jd
    91sc

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    H-Town Tejas
    Posts
    2,891
    I recommend running pure oxygen it will work just like nitrous except there is no Nitrogen to keep it from reacting to anything around it. As soon as it hits the oil in the IC tubes it will have a spiff-o-rific reaction. I was hoping you would figure out that compressed air is high pressure at low volume (4-5 SCFM). What is needed is low pressure with high volume (kinda like a SUPERCHARGER). In order for your compressed air idea to even come close to working you will need an air amplifier, Which looks like a annular discharge booster in a carb. They have flow #ís in the 1000 CFM range. Exair Corp. is one company that makes those. Adding it B4 the Maf would probably cause problems with the signal. After the maf could work, but you still are going to be adding some unmetered air to the system.

    Jeff

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    San Bernardino, CA
    Posts
    4,523

    sorry

    you are right n20 oxygen or air are not compleate fuels no carbon molecules ive been looking at propane then noticed we could use propanal or prothane which has more carbon molecules and corrisponding oxygen molecules which would cause a slower burn or higher net octane level ,,,,, also a friend was saying octain a gas is cold when released and has a higher octane level than propane or protane gas all cost about the same but only propane and butane are easy to get others are available at welding supplys and may work better,,, just my ywo cents

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Lakeville, MN
    Posts
    13,517
    Yipes...

    #1 - Air injection is a waste. If you want more air in the system put a smaller pully on the supercharger. I'm not sure everyone fully understands the pressures we are talking about to "inject" air. Either that or they are just being silly.

    #2 - Propane as an additive does reduce intake air charge temperature. It also helps to reduce detonation. Down side, you pay for the fuel, plus the propane.

    #3 - Propane as a fuel works to reduce detonation, reduces intake air charge temperatures. Down side, you have to retrofit parts, need a big tank to store it, and good luck finding ready supplies of propane on your cross country journey.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Southern IL
    Posts
    196
    I have a complete propane injection kit for the SC/XR7 that is in testing now. The propane will be a "variable" injection kit, meaning that you set the level of boost that you would like the propane to start entering the system. Usually you want to set this to start coming in about 3psi before you would start to see detonation. The kit is very easy to install, and the tank of propane should last for awhile( around 600 miles depending on the size of tank, and you settings). I hope to have this test by this weekend, and all goes while should be offering it to the SC/XR7 community soon. Look for more details to follow.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Albany, NY, USA
    Posts
    999

    Air injection????

    AIr injection has been used on cars before, but not into the intake of the engine, it was used to force air into the exhaust so the catylytic converter has enough oxygen to burn off the deposits.

    Air pumps were cumbersome, unreliable and sapped additional HP from the 140hp 2barrel Carbured V-8's they were attached to during the late 70's early 80's.

    N20 is used as a "power adder" not because it is a fuel but because it is a richer source of oxygen. At best our atmospheric air supply has about 21% O2 content.

    N20 has a 38% O2 content. But the nitrogen portion of the gas DOES buffer the combustion process to keep things from getting out of control. With any bottle fed baby, you must make ure you are running enough fuel.

    Obviously this brings up the question.... "if running N20 is 38% O2, then what if I run, pure medical grade 100% O2"???


    Ever use a cutting torch? When you push the lever down on it, it blasts the O2 in the flame and it cuts right through metal. And that is exactly what it would do to our engines...... The only way for our engines to stand up to that kind of abuse would be to change out the materials that the pistons and cylinders are made of....like high temp ceramics that they use on the space shuttle....but those are too brittle..... I'm rambling....

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Milford, Michigan
    Posts
    1,398

    air injection

    Every SC has air injection.
    An Eaton M90 is an air compressor.
    Two commonly used forms of forced air induction are turbo charging and supercharging. Duh..

  11. #26

    Propane

    We have just shipped out 22 Propane Injection Systems.

    It is a one system fits all kit. Works for SC'd and Turbo vehicles.

    We were able to increase our boost by 7psi on pump 91 octane without knock (detonation).

    A small 5# propane tank which costs $2.50 to fill lasts about 2-3 full tanks of gas (20 gallon tank) and that was during testing so mostly WOT runs.

    Propane aids in two ways. Lower intake charge temp, propane leaves the tank at -60F. And Propane is very high Octane.

    We have done months of R&D ad have put together a very nice do it yourself easy install system. We were not able to utilize off the shelf parts or even parts from existing Diesel propane kits. They just dont' have the flow ability or response for Gas F/I vehicles. We did try, it did not work. Instead we have our parts machined to our specific specs.

    We have tested it against water and Alky and it blows is away.

    The only thing that comes close to allowing us to run 22psi is 101 octane which is $4 gallon instead of $2.50 for 2-3 full gas fill ups.

    We datalog our testing and they are available for viewing. We are gearing up for the next run of 40 systems. We sold 22 kits in 1 week.

    Our customers range from Turbo Fords, Sc'd Pontiacs, 3000GTvr4s, Stealth TT's, MR2 turbos, Honda-Acura Turbos, Syclone-Typhoons..the list goes on...

    For only $350 we can't keep em in stock. Current wait time is abut two weeks due to machining and build time.

    You will notice in the Datalog shots that timing takes a dive without propane due to knock where in the propane datalogs timing keep rising (POWER)

    You will also notice that knock in the Non propane runs keeps rising under WOT while in the Propane runs the propane actually eliminates it while still under WOT.

    Check it out here..
    http://www.importpoweronline.com/propane.html
    http://www.importpoweronline.com/propanelogs.html
    Last edited by import power on; 08-02-2002 at 08:25 PM.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    17,430

    wooaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh

    Not bad for a 200-250 profit..:O)~,...
    They don't call me "SLOWPOKE" for nothin!
    http://www.sccoa.com/forums/garage_v...vehicle&id=110
    Quote Originally Posted by ricardoa1 View Post
    I love the filter. Its pimp. paper element and 10Mircron filtration, 12" long cause size matters.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Milford, Michigan
    Posts
    1,398

    air injection

    A supercharger IS air injection silly!

  14. #29

    Re: wooaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh

    Originally posted by Damon Slowpoke Baumann
    Not bad for a 200-250 profit..:O)~,...
    I wish, I would be RICH!

  15. #30

    Propane Injection...ha

    I've got a propane injection system installed on my car and it's slower than ever from stop light to stop light. It's so bad that even Moped's want to race me. Now that's sad.

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    Of course, it might have something to do with the 1,000 gallon propane tank I'm pulling behind my car. Man, those things are huge. You should see the looks I get at the race track when I pull up to the line with this 25 foot tank behind me.
    SCCoA Member #247
    Hardcore TBU #5 (in tow)

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