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Thread: Regarding Supercharger oil

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TbirdSCFan
    GM Supercharger Oil P/N: 12345982

    GM oil contains Fatty acids, c5-10, esters with dipentaery thritol,
    Phosphoric acid, phenyl diphenyl ester.

    Ford Synthetic Supercharger Fluid P/N: E9SZ-19577-A

    Ford fluid contains Butylated Triphenyl Phosphate and PentaeryThriTol Ester.

    Both come in 4 oz plastic bottles.
    They are different compounds but compatible.
    This is interesting TbirdSCFan, where did you get this information?

    Questions regaurding the similarity of the GM and Ford fluids have existed for a long time now here, and if there was a verifiable source of data for the composition of each one it could definately provide some very useful information!

    It would also be interesting to know the source of these fluids from GM and Ford..

  2. #17
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    Off the labels on the bottles. The Ford fluid is synthetic; the GM fluid is not. The 2 smell very different too. The Ford stuff stinks.
    Red 90 SC/AOD- Primary DD. Restored.
    Black 90 SC/5 Spd- 2nd DD Restored.
    White 90 SC/AOD- w/290,000.. retired

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TbirdSCFan
    Off the labels on the bottles. The Ford fluid is synthetic; the GM fluid is not. The 2 smell very different too. The Ford stuff stinks.
    Last I heard ester was a Synthetic.

    Jeff

  4. #19
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    GM just adds some Febreze to their SC oil. But it's the same stuff.

  5. #20
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    I really don't care what you folks shove in the case, its your SC and if you want to use maple syrup and say its just as good, go ahead. Ford did what they did for whatever reasons they did it. GM and Eaton found a way to cut a corner and lower the cost. Was GM wrong to do what they did???... No, they weren't; there are practical reasons for using their oil. Its not a lot different from getting a low bid to have your transmission rebuilt with cheaper parts knowing that it won't live as long. You do this with the knowledge that you won't keep the car. There is an entire market of low grade parts which meet this purpose and nothing wrong with it. I have the GM stuff in my SC, but it is not the same, and likely not as good.
    The reason I'm not concerned is I check the fluid regularly. If I were average Joe consumer, and didn't do that, then having a lifetime fluid in a newly sealed SC which I wouldn't have to touch for 100,000 makes more sense than cheap fluid, doesn't it? Ford sells cars to many average Joes.
    Red 90 SC/AOD- Primary DD. Restored.
    Black 90 SC/5 Spd- 2nd DD Restored.
    White 90 SC/AOD- w/290,000.. retired

  6. #21
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    Here is a link to the Nye 605 data sheet on the oil:

    http://www.nyelubricants.com/pdf/605_copy2.pdf

    It says both are the same. I have had the Ford oil and Duffy and I sold two gallons of the Nye 605 a few years back. It is definately the same. I have never actually had the GM product in my hand, but all I have read leads me to believe the oils are the same Nye 605 fluild.

    The biggest quality of the oil is its low volatility which is essential in a closed system to keep from blowing out the seals.

  7. #22
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    Rick (TbirdSCFan) is right, both bottles list their main ingredients, and they are different. There is no getting around this. How much of a difference is a question that hasn't been fully answered yet (to my knowledge... I would like to hear Dr. Fred's opinion on this seeing as he's an actual chemical engineer).

    Now, the Nye data sheet does show the correct Ford part#. From my service manual...
    The supercharger has a self-contained oiling system that does not require a fluid change for the life of the vehicle. However, at every 30,000 mile interval, the supercharger fluid level should be checked. The vehicle should be parked on a level surface, the engine cool, and not running. To check the oil, remove the Allen head plug located at the front of the supercharger. The oil level should be at the bottom of the fill plug threads when cold. If the fluid level is low, add a Synthetic Supercharger Fluid E9SZ-19577-A (ESE-M99C115-A), or equivalent.
    This however does not necessarily mean the fluids have always been the same. Ford may have been sourcing a similar type lubricant from another manufacturer/supplier. (note the "or equivalent" part at the end)

    Bottom line is, people have been using the GM stuff for awhile now and we haven't heard of any problems. Same is true for the turbine oil which has very similar properties.

    My only concern would be mixing the two together. I'm not entirely convinced they are compatible together, but the solution is simple: drain all the Ford fluid out and go with pure GM (or turbine) lubricant.

    The last time I bought the Ford stuff it was $15.88 CDN per bottle (about $10 US)... however that was 2 years ago. It must have gone "UP" in price since then.

    BTW, does anyone know what the Lightning superchargers call for? Is it the same stuff (E9SZ-19577-A)?

  8. #23
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    The Nye sheet shows both the GM and Ford numbers:

    NYE SYNTHETIC OIL 605
    Copper Deactivator, EP Fortified
    A light viscosity, ester oil intended for powdered metal
    parts and gears with low volatility. Benefits include excellent
    oxidation stability and low wear characteristics.
    Ford: ESE-M99C115-A
    GM: 12345982

    I have also attached the Nye 605 MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet)
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #24
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    PAUL93SC, the price on the oil has gone up as I posted earlier. The new price as qouted by the FORD dealer was #36.50 Canadian. WOW eh!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gldiii
    The Nye sheet shows both the GM and Ford numbers:
    Well then obviously Nye is in error as the GM label clearly and unambiguously states a different chemical composition from whats listed on the MSDS sheet.

    The last pic is difficult to read and was difficult to photograph, but the text reads:


    Contains:
    Fatty acids, C5-10, esters with
    dipentaerythritol - CAS 70983-72-1
    Phosphoric acid (1, 1-dimethylethy),
    phenyl diphenyl ester - CAS 56803-37-3
    Last edited by TbirdSCFan; 01-25-2011 at 05:46 PM.
    Red 90 SC/AOD- Primary DD. Restored.
    Black 90 SC/5 Spd- 2nd DD Restored.
    White 90 SC/AOD- w/290,000.. retired

  11. #26
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    Well then obviously Nye is in error as the GM label clearly and unambiguously states a different chemical composition from whats listed on the MSDS sheet.
    I can read just fine! LOL I can just as easily state that the print on the GM bottle is in error or more likely is just incomplete. I cannot see how Nye would incorrectly list the GM part number on one of their data sheets.

    Nothing in the two descriptions leads me to believe they are different chemical compostions. I spent some time looking up the CAS numbers and the chemical compound names. Essentialy, both bottles contain a synthetic phosphate ester compound. Unfortunately, the Nye MSDS does not list many compounds because the 605 formula is proprietary to Nye.

    I am not a chemist, but I did do an unscientific test where I had a bottle of each fluid. The smell is identical, the color is identical and the viscosity seems to be identical. I have also handled the Nye 605 fluid and it, too is identical to me. Now all that means nothing unless I get Duane Nettles on board to do a final blind taste test of all three compounds!

    Any way, bottom line tonight is that neither of us has enough conclusive proof to offer at this time. If I have time next week, I might try to call Nye, Eaton and possibly Magnuson to see if they can shed some light on all this. I have always thought the oils to be identical, it would be nice to know once and for all.

    Much of the CAS (Chemical Abstract Service) information was picked up here:

    http://www.scorecard.org/

    Actual CAS site:

    http://www.cas.org/


    Here are some boring definitions I picked up on the Chevron site:

    http://www.chevron.com/oronite/refer...ctionary_e.asp

    SYNTHETIC LUBRICANT - lubricating fluid made by chemically reacting materials of a specific chemical composition to produce a compound with planned and predictable properties; the resulting base stock may be supplemented with additives to improve specific properties. Man synthetic lubricants - also called synlubes - are derived wholly or primarily from petrochemicals; other synlube raw materials are derived from coal and oil shale, or are lipochemicals (from animal and vegetable oils). Synthetic lubricants may be superior to petroleum oils in specific performance areas. Many exhibit higher viscosity index (VI), better thermal stability and oxidation stability, and low volatility (which reduces oil consumption). Individual synthetic lubricants offer specific outstanding properties: phosphate esters, for example, are fire resistant, diesters have good oxidation stability and lubricity, and silicones offer exceptionally high VI. Most synthetic lubricants can be converted to grease by adding thickeners. Because synthetic lubricants are higher in cost than petroleum oils, they are used selectively where performance or safety requirements may exceed the capabilities of a conventional oil. The following is a list of the principal classes of synthetic lubricants: alkylated aromatics(organic hydrocarbon), olefin oligomers(organic hydrocarbon), dibasic acid esters (organic ester), polyol esters (organic ester), polyglycols, phosphate esters, silicones, silicate esters, halogenated hydrocarbons.

    ESTER - chemical compound formed by the reaction of an organic or inorganic acid with an alcohol or with another organic compound containing the hydroxyl (-OH) radical. The reaction involves replacement of the hydrogen of the acid with a hydrocarbon group. The name of the ester indicates its derivation; e.g., the ester resulting from the reaction of ethyl alcohol and ascetic acid is called ethyl acetate. Esters have important uses in the formulation of some petroleum additives and synthetic lubricants. See dibasic acid ester, phosphate ester.

    DIBASIC ACID ESTER (DIESTER) - synthetic lubricant base; an organic ester, formed by reacting a dicarboxylic acid and an alcohol; properties include a high viscosity index (VI) and low volatility. With the addition of specific additives, it may be used as a lubricant in compressors, hydraulic systems, and internal combustion engines.

    PHOSPHATE ESTER - any of a group of synthetic lubricants having superior fire resistance. A phosphate ester generally has poor hydrolytic stability, poor compatibility with mineral oil, and a relatively low viscosity index (VI). It is used as a fire-resistant hydraulic fluid in high-temperature applications.

  12. #27
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    I dont know if this helps, but my brother, who is a smog tech, has had a few Supercharged cars and a few SC Fords. He says that ALL GM cars come in with some kind of noise from the superchargers and the Fords do not. He says that the Fords just have tranny problems. I was looking to get a 97+ GM (Bonneville SSEI or Grand Prix GTP or the SC Bird. His impressions of the GMs swayed me. Ohh and he is a Die Hard Chevy man, so for him to tell me to get the Ford must have Hurt. What does this have to do with the oils? Maybe the noise he hears has somehting to do with the cheaper Fluids. I dunno, Im done.

  13. #28
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    None2slow,

    Thanks, but we all know why blowers make noises (of differing types), so I wouldn't be too concerned.

    everybody else,

    One of the things that everybody has overlooked is that advances march along pretty quickly these days. New ways are found to do things better. It doesn't really matter what field it is either. So don't you think that since the Eaton SC was developed back in at least the early 80's that by the year 2K something might have come along that makes the process better or cheaper, which includes SC fluid?

    One other thing that I don't think anyone realizes is that When you buy parts at a parts counter (Ford or GM), they set their own price. Case in point.

    I buy a lot of industrial parts, bearings, sheaves, belts, machined parts, wave springs, springs, motors, the list goes on and on.

    Recently I noticed that a bearing that I use had gone from a price of $7.50 to $11.86. I told my boss that's a big jump and we should talk to the salesman or change vendors.

    The first vendor was Applied Motion Industries, which I really don't like working with anyway for other reasons.

    I had to go to Motion Industries a few weeks ago to pick up some parts for a project I was working on, and just asked, while I was waiting how much is this bearing and how available is it? Well I was shocked when he told me $2.81.

    The kicker is that both are MRC bearings same specs and both with seals. Motion had a different part # for it, but it was an internal part #.

    Applied = Ford

    Motion = Chevy

    Jeff

    PS

    George,

    Was that the Nye lube you and Duffy put together on the TBSCEC?

  14. #29
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    Jeff, It was the Nye 605 oil that we used. I have previously posted the data sheet and MSDS sheet in this thread.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gldiii
    Jeff, It was the Nye 605 oil that we used. I have previously posted the data sheet and MSDS sheet in this thread.
    I couldn't remember, Vernon bought some and Steve (his bro) and I split it. I know Vernon dosn't have any blower problems and he beats the hell out of it.

    Jeff

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