someone should start a thread to debate the 2004 elections...oh I just did

Shooter_Jay

Registered User
First, for the record, when I was 20 I voted for Bill Clinton because MTV told me to and I was ignorant and naive. After watching tv news almost daily, listening to radio news and talk daily, and whatever else read, for ten years or so regularly now, I'm votin' for Bush for two reasons. 1. He's a good man. I trust him. He does and will do what is best for the country. 2. John Kerry is a fake and very bad man. I don't trust him as far as I could throw his gas-guzzling private super-jet liner or super-yacht. He would say screw the country and do what's best for him. Ok bush haters, let me have it! ;-). But seriously, other than military service, and he's not bush, give me one good reason I should vote for Kerry...yeah that's what I thought :rolleyes:
 
Amen, I will be voting for Bush as well.

Did you ever see the video of Kerry trying to act like a normal middle class guy eating a philly steak sandwhich when he was in Philly. He was holding it like it was the plague. It was funny as anything. Just last week he walked out on a meet and greet in florida at a back woods resteraunt because he found out the employees didn't have health insurance, so he just got up and left. Imagine how that would have looked for poor John, patronizing a resteraunt that has no health insurance for their employee's.
 
1BADSC said:
Just last week he walked out on a meet and greet in florida at a back woods resteraunt because he found out the employees didn't have health insurance, so he just got up and left. Imagine how that would have looked for poor John, patronizing a resteraunt that has no health insurance for their employee's.
Yeah right that was funny. Anybody looking for some info on either guy check out this link, in the search box enter Kerry or bush and press enter.
http://newsmax.com/search/index.cfm
 
I vote for based upon a couple of issues. The candidate that gets my vote is Pro-life, and they support 2nd ammendment rights.
After that, I can be swayed based upon other factors but I just won't vote for anyone pro abortion or pro gun control.

So I guess I've got only one option and that's Bush.
 
The way I look at it Mickey Mouse has the same chance as Kerry. It comes down to do you like Bush or not, If you like him you vote for him, if not it is the OTHER guy.
No one could possibly know were kerry stands to make a intelligent discussion to vote him in.
 
If you don't like Bush, you shouldn't vote for Kerry just because he is the only other person to vote for. If you don't want either person in office then don't vote. But never just go vote for someone because you don't like the other guy, especially if you don't know any of their stances on important issues.

Sorry Gary but i had to disagree. :) Never vote for one guy just because you don't like the other.
 
1BADSC said:
If you don't like Bush, you shouldn't vote for Kerry just because he is the only other person to vote for. If you don't want either person in office then don't vote. But never just go vote for someone because you don't like the other guy, especially if you don't know any of their stances on important issues.

Sorry Gary but i had to disagree. :) Never vote for one guy just because you don't like the other.

That is not what I was saying. I was saying Democrates will vote for democrates no matter what the choices our, in this case it is a very poor choice.
 
kuhnga said:
was saying Democrates will vote for democrates no matter what the choices our, in this case it is a very poor choice.

I'd add to that, in this and in almost all cases. But hey, I'm part of the vast right wing conspiracy I think... :D
 
Geez guys. You don't really read up on ANYBODY, do you? You just believe what Bush's ads say and that's it. If you want to know John Kerry's stance on ANYTHING, go to www.johnkerry.com. He has his exact stance on EVERY relevant issue printed clearly in black and white. Or whatever color scheme he picked. If you believe Bush's ads, check www.factcheck.org. I don't think Bush has produced an ad that they haven't had to unf*ck. I'm not syaing John Kerry is an angel on that site, but he is MUCH cleaner (read: trustworthy) than Bush. Most of Kerry's goofs are facts taken out of context to make Bush look worse. Most of Bush's goofs are outright lies...and he keeps harping on them. Actually, according to a news release, Bush had to pull some of his ads because they were HURTING him.

Here's some stuff to ponder...

Abortion issue:
It's is VERY possible to be pro-choice AND anti-abortion. I am. Kerry is. And being Pro-Choice is pro-small government. I thought conservatives liked that.

Same-sex marriage:
Kerry supports Bush's ORIGINAL perspective (which Bush later flip flopped hardconre on), and that is to leave it to the states.

The War on Terror:
Bush has no experience and thusly no success in the field of diplomacy. Kerry intends to reopen relations with nations Bush has alienated and take some of the burdon of Iraq off of American shoulders and share the burdon with EVERYONE who will benefit from the elimination of Saddam.

The Economy:
What's better? The tax-and-spend liberal conservatives accuse (without basis) Kerry of being, or a tax-CUT-and-spend irresponsible financier (and CEO of 3 failed oil companies in Texas) that Bush has proved himself to be? Kerry promises 10 million new jobs. Whether or not he will actually be able to deliver on that, Bush is still in the red as far as jobs go. Plus, history shows that centrist Democrats (ala Clinton and Kerry) are better with money and cause the economy to perform better than classical Republicans (Reagan, Bush I and Bush II). You see, not only did Clinton preside over the biggest national economic spike in the history of our country, he also did it, in the end, without a single penny in the deficit column.

Gun control:
Kerry, so far as I have read, thinks that things are fine as is. He even started up a new subdivision of his campaign effort called "Sportsmen for Kerry" which seems to be doing well. So don't expect anything to really change on the gun control front (I am majorly pro 2nd amendment).

Staff:
Bush's cabinet has only one reputable member...Colin Powell. And he has already stated that if the administration wins a 2nd term he will not return for it. Though Kerry has not picked a cabinet yet (nor a vice president) we have seen, especially in Abu Gharib, the trustworthiness of his cabinet...and of the president himself.

Any other questions?
 
Kerry must be the best, he votes for everything :)

Do you know how many advanced military weapons we are using right now that Kerry has voted against? Or how about all of Kerry's votes for Gas tax hikes. Or his bright idea to bring prices down. "stop filling our reserves and put that gas into the market" Clinton tried this when he was in office and it didn't work, prices fell by one cent. Great plan. Oh yeah he also said he would tell Opec to lower the prices. LOL. What a trip.
 
92TBurnSC said:
Geez guys. You don't really read up on ANYBODY, do you?

did you say something about diplomacy? heh...anyway, sure I know plenty about kerry. Not that it makes me an expert, but he is my senator, him and good old ted kennedy, not sure which one is more crooked.
92TBurnSC said:
You just believe what Bush's ads say and that's it. If you want to know John Kerry's stance on ANYTHING, go to www.johnkerry.com. He has his exact stance on
-both sides of? ha I couldn't resist, I know that jab doesn't count except for a laugh-
92TBurnSC said:
EVERY relevant issue printed clearly in black and white. Or whatever color scheme he picked. If you believe Bush's ads, check www.factcheck.org. I don't think Bush has produced an ad that they haven't had to unf*ck.

I just saw a kerry ad yesterday that ended with something like, "and John Kerry cast the deciding vote on a law that created 20 million jobs". What? Why is his vote the deciding one over the other 99? I'm surprised they found one he voted on, he hasn't voted in how long since he's been campaiging for president? No really, tell me the last time he showed up to vote, I know he misses many if not all this year plus. Not to mention the ad didn't say what law it was that he created all those jobs with. The democrats are also always claiming to create jobs. Government doesn't create jobs, it can only block the creation of less jobs through smaller gov't. Any politician that says he created jobs is a liar. And for the record unless I'm mistaken, jobs have gone up in this country every month for several in a row now.

92TBurnSC said:
I'm not syaing John Kerry is an angel on that site, but he is MUCH cleaner (read: trustworthy) than Bush. Most of Kerry's goofs are facts taken out of context to make Bush look worse. Most of Bush's goofs are outright lies...and he keeps harping on them. Actually, according to a news release, Bush had to pull some of his ads because they were HURTING him.

I call bs on all of that. Name one of his lies you are talking about. I'm not surprised you didn't name them here because they are unfounded accusations. Give me a specific lie. WMD? The dems say out of one side of their mouth that he acted wrong on bad intelligence service, then say he lied too. Get it right. Through the 90's the dems, the UN, and the world talked about sadaams WMD. Oh and did you happen to notice that a bomb in iraq yesterday was found with nerve gas in it and last week one with mustard gas? Lucky for our guys they malfunctioned.

92TBurnSC said:
Here's some stuff to ponder...

Abortion issue:
It's is VERY possible to be pro-choice AND anti-abortion. I am. Kerry is. And being Pro-Choice is pro-small government. I thought conservatives liked that.

Well that is valid. Conservatives don't all think the exact same though. Some are very religious, and some are very libertarian. Personally I think most of the pro-choicers are wacko's but I'm on the libertarian side. Don't forget about the liberty of the unborn babies though. That's a tough issue though.

92TBurnSC said:
Same-sex marriage:
Kerry supports Bush's ORIGINAL perspective (which Bush later flip flopped hardconre on), and that is to leave it to the states.

and their stances are/were? Whatever, I'm in massachusetts so I'm seeing this first hand. Yay for adam and steve. Too bad we MA citizens went through the legal channels to get the same sex marriage bill on the ballot and the dems stonewalled and didn't follow the law and refused to put it on the ballot. Then the renegade state supreme court decided to write their own law about it instead which is not their job. So now we have same sex marriage. Whatever that's a different issue though, who really cares when you think about the fact that we are in WORLD WAR III! I don't care about these issues when I hear John kerry saying he want's to do what the corrupt UN says instead of what our elected president needs to been done based on all the information that only he gets.
92TBurnSC said:
The War on Terror:
Bush has no experience and thusly no success in the field of diplomacy. Kerry intends to reopen relations with nations Bush has alienated and take some of the burdon of Iraq off of American shoulders and share the burdon with EVERYONE who will benefit from the elimination of Saddam.
Um, if gore, clinton, or kerry were president instead of bush, saddam would still be in power. What is Kerry's experience, three months in vietnam or way too long as a corrupt gigilo senator?

92TBurnSC said:
The Economy:
What's better? The tax-and-spend liberal conservatives accuse (without basis) Kerry of being, or a tax-CUT-and-spend irresponsible financier (and CEO of 3 failed oil companies in Texas) that Bush has proved himself to be? Kerry promises 10 million new jobs. Whether or not he will actually be able to deliver on that, Bush is still in the red as far as jobs go. Plus, history shows that centrist Democrats (ala Clinton and Kerry) are better with money and cause the economy to perform better than classical Republicans (Reagan, Bush I and Bush II). You see, not only did Clinton preside over the biggest national economic spike in the history of our country, he also did it, in the end, without a single penny in the deficit column.
You can't honestly claim who is definitely responsible for the good and bad economies. For one, Considering 911, I never thought the economy would be as good as it is. For two, the crash started before bush II got in, and it's recovered nicely, and yes jobs have gone up, not down like you are claiming. Also while clinton was Pres., in 94 the republicans took over the legislative branch, and they wrote the budget not clinton. Also history proves over and over that cutting taxes increases gov't revenue because private entities have more to spend rather than the gov't wasting it like they are so good at. Many including me believe that the 90's boom happened in spite of anything clinton did not because of it. What about all the crooked companies that boomed in the 90's that he failed to prosecute too that came back to bite us like enron, global crossing etc.

92TBurnSC said:
Gun control:
Kerry, so far as I have read, thinks that things are fine as is. He even started up a new subdivision of his campaign effort called "Sportsmen for Kerry" which seems to be doing well. So don't expect anything to really change on the gun control front (I am majorly pro 2nd amendment).
Sounds good, but I don't believe him. It is unarguably his party that wants to outlaw guns...that'll be great, then only outlaws will have guns, I can't wait. :rolleyes:

92TBurnSC said:
Staff:
Bush's cabinet has only one reputable member...Colin Powell. And he has already stated that if the administration wins a 2nd term he will not return for it. Though Kerry has not picked a cabinet yet (nor a vice president) we have seen, especially in Abu Gharib, the trustworthiness of his cabinet...and of the president himself.

Any other questions?

Yeah, um do you know anything other than what CNN tells you about rumsfeld or cheney? Those are two of the smartest men in the country. Do a little research into what they have accomplished in their careers. Even most of the democrats are saying he should stay in charge of the military because nobody could come close to touching his amazing intellect. Oh I forgot he's stupid, cheney's stupid, bush is stupid even with his harvard MBA(oh yeah daddy bought it for him right?) Yeah his daddy that is supposedly such a whimp. Well his daddy was one of the highest decorated pilots in WWII, look it up. Seems to me that the New York Times or the Boston Globe or one of the tv networks have fed you some serious garbage my friend. I hope you and many like you change your mind, but I don't think it will matter, bush will win again, by much more this time.
 
Last edited:
Bush is a liar and a right wing nut... if those items float your boat, more power to you.

As for Kerry not voting for "advanced weapons" take a look at http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127/

Aside from that, who needs advanced weapons? So we can bomb the Iraqi's more effectively, or use more stealth bombers so that they don't get shot down by Al Quaida's non-existant anti-aircraft weaponry? I have a great idea, how about we provide out troops with something low-tech... like armored vehicles... which likely would have saved a few hundred of our soldiers' lives.

Bush isn't even a consistent right winger, anyone who claims to be "pro-life" but supports exceptions in the case of incest or rape is a liar who is trying to appease the masses instead of being sincere. If you are a pro-lifer then you hold that abortion=murder... you tell me, which is worse, incest or murder? what about rape or murder? At least be consistent... if you hold the fetus to be a baby then the only possible exception would have to be the life of the mother. Otherwise, how can you hold this "fetus-person" responsible for the sins/crimes of others?

Also, anyone who is against gay marriage is not a true conservative either, just a bible thumper. I REAL conservative would never even consider the idea of a constitutional ammendment to restrict an individuals rights, let alone increase the size and responsibility of the federal government.

Frankly I think it's too bad that Karl Rove and the Bushies smeared McCain so badly, he at least is a decent guy who doesn't suck up, he would have been a decent president.

No worries for all of you die-hard Republicans, regardless of whether Bush wins or not in the fall, we can expect Jeb to follow not far behind.
 
So plev what are you saying, Al Quaida downed are helicopter with rocks and harsh language? Because i thought it was anti aircraft rockets and stinger missles that took down are birds.
 
I was thinking you were talking about aircraft (as in planes) but if you are talking about the Comanche, which was slated to cost an additional 30 billion dollars http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040223-comanche02.htm while I am certainly concerned for all of our troops over there, I believe that we've lost fewer than 1/2 a dozen helicopters and their crews... few if any were gunships. Personally I'm of the opinion that 30 billion dollars buys an awful lot of low-tech, but very effective armor for our vehicles. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4825948/
 
The military has pretty much done away with big slow heavy moving vehicles. The new military style is to be very light and very very mobile. This is part of what allowed us to sweep over Iraq in a matter of days. We are no longer even really fighting Iraqi's, we are fighting insurgance from terrorist countires who do not want Iraq to be a free democracy, because they know what that will mean. They will lose their foothold in the middle east. Freedom is a powerful thing and the terrorist worst enemy. Bush was smart enough to know that and that is why we are there. If you listen to all of his talks he always says "we are changing the face of the middle east forever" This is the plan.
 
1BADSC:
If Democracy was the REAL threat to terrorist ideology then we would be seeing attacks in Jordan and, even moreso, in Qatar who just converted to a democracy in the past couple years. The insurgents are there because they DON'T LIKE AMERICA. And if I were them I wouldn't be to chummy with us either. We've only lied to them and exploited them and killed them by the thousands by "mistake" (current Iraqi civilian death toll is over 10,000) and by boycott (hundreds of thousands of Iraqis starved to death because of our embargo on them under Saddam). Face it. Our ***** stinks. And now, our hardworking, honest, brave servicemen and women are paying the price, not the leaders who caused the problems in the first place.

And don't forget, America put Saddam in power. Yes it was a "lesser of two evils" thing at the time, but what do you get when you pick the lesser of two evils? Evil. Duh.

Shooter_Jay
I've never really debated with you at all, however at least you make more sense than 1BADSC. However, let's take a look at a few things.

Political ads
When someone says they casted the deciding vote, that means that he was the last to cast his vote. The result of his vote either passed or killed a bill. It happens all the time. All other 99 senators aside, a bill is only passed by a margin of victory. Just like voting for everything else.

As far as lying, I was talking about political ads. You really don't want me to touch the myriad lies that Bush has fed us while not campaigning for re-election. If you want me to, though, I suppose I could write another novel on that...another time. But let's look at the ads the way www.factcheck.org does:

I'm only going back to Feb 2004.

Bush lies:
Bush's "biggest tax increase in history" claim is an outright lie
Bush lies about Kerry voting for higher taxes 350 times
Bush lies about the 350 votes for higher taxes...again
Bus lies about Kerry trying to "gut intelligence"
Bush lies about Kerry's defense record...again
Bush lies about Kerry taking the most "special interest money"
Bush lies about his own spending


Bush misrepresentations:
Bush misrepresents Kerry's defense record
Bush misrepresents Kerry's 50-cent gas tax (It was a decade ago and Bush's own economic advisor thought it was a great idea and still is. Read here for details)
Bush misrepresents Kerry's stance on Social Security taxes...and screws up the gax tax again Bush's claim that Kerry "voted againt body armor for our troops in Iraq" is misleading Bush fudges numbers on Kerry's tax plan Bush exaggerates his tax cuts
Bush misrepresents the results of his Texas Miracle program, the Texas version of No Child Left Behind

Compare and contrast:

Kerry lies:
Kerry lies about Roe vs Wade being 1 vote away from being overturned
Kerry lies about Bush saying "outsourcing is good for us"


Kerry misrepresentations:
Kerry exaggerates his role in the economic boom of the 1990s
The misery index on [url]www.johnkerry.com is misleading and accentuates the negative[/URL]
Kerry misleads by confusing Bush's vet benefit cut proposal with actual vet cuts
Kerry uses kinda-sorta wrong numbers to describe Bush's deficit
Kerry misleads on Bush's vet benefits by saying it's a cut when it's really not as much as the VA Dept proposed

You guys had better read each one of these. This took me forever.
However, lets look at the score:

LIES:
Bush: 7
Kerry: 2

MISREPRESENTATIONS:
Bush: 5
Kerry: 5

TOTAL SCORE:
Bush: 12
Kerry: 7

I'd continue with more of a rebuttal...but I'm going to be late for work if I do.
 
Back
Top