[n00b question] AR Kit
- Thread starter Lvcien
- Start date
90blkbrd
Registered User
V8Supercoupe said:Sporty that there AR is!
Does anyone know if there are any plans to incorporate a 2.2 to our application?
What a bummer,,, I sold my old motor and now I own another SC. I wish I had that engine so I could bolt one of these things on it. Back to the drawing board.....all over again
From the posts I read, a 2.2 isn't in the works.
V8Supercoupe
Registered User
Dang Mike, how long have you had a 2.2?
Do we have a ballpark cost differential from the 1.7?
Do we have a ballpark cost differential from the 1.7?
AWD, Jet powered SC
68COUGAR
You should talk to the 14 yr. old kid with $70,000 who wanted to convert his SC to AWD. He'd probably jump at the chance to buy your Jet engine kit, for another $70,000. Remember a Fool & his money................Lvcien said::
68COUGAR
V8Supercoupe said:
The 2.2 belongs to a client not myself. I have no idea what it costs.
All I will say is I'm building a blower setup thats unlike anything anyone has ever seen at the SCCOA. I do custom builds for anybody wanting such and I do not give out the details because its private and very custom....thats what I get paid to do.
V8Supercoupe
Registered User
68:
Awww DUDE......I just got to thinking about some of the stuff that used to go on around here. I was thinking something like that went on a couple of years ago, but I couldn't remember.
Thats is funny! LOL!
Skip
Awww DUDE......I just got to thinking about some of the stuff that used to go on around here. I was thinking something like that went on a couple of years ago, but I couldn't remember.
Thats is funny! LOL!
Uh, that doesn't really help out my curiosity too much. LOL!
Skip
David Neibert
SCCoA Admin
MIKE 38sc said:The 2.2 belongs to a client not myself. I have no idea what it costs.
All I will say is I'm building a blower setup thats unlike anything anyone has ever seen at the SCCOA. I do custom builds for anybody wanting such and I do not give out the details because its private and very custom....thats what I get paid to do.
Mike,
That sounds alot like what ESM made for George. I saw it in varoius stages of production and then some pictures of the finished product. Wowser that thing looked great. I can't wait to see it on the car.
David
XR7 Dave
Registered User
I'm pretty sure I know who's motor Mike is working on, and as he said it is a custom piece, not something that you would buy as a kit and bolt on and go.V8Supercoupe said:
The type of installation Mike is working on is completely different from the 1.7L kit pictured above and hence cannot be compared price wise to it. The 2.2L does not fit in the configuration shown above which is why it has not been offered. It may be offered in the future depending on just how far people are prepared to push the SC. So far no one has presented a longblock that is ready for more than the 1.7L can dish out. So far mine is the highest HP twin screw powered 3.8L known to exist and it still has the stock 190K mile lower end in it. Who thinks their motor is tough enough to outrun a 1.7L? I'll put the challenge out. It better be able to handle 20psi all the way up to 7000rpm.
CMac89
Registered User
I CHALLENGE YOU!!!!! I could make power at 20psi to about 3000. I would buy one, but i dont think it has proven itself yet. Maybe you should come to Indianapolis, IN and show me what its got.XR7 Dave said:I'm pretty sure I know who's motor Mike is working on, and as he said it is a custom piece, not something that you would buy as a kit and bolt on and go.
The type of installation Mike is working on is completely different from the 1.7L kit pictured above and hence cannot be compared price wise to it. The 2.2L does not fit in the configuration shown above which is why it has not been offered. It may be offered in the future depending on just how far people are prepared to push the SC. So far no one has presented a longblock that is ready for more than the 1.7L can dish out. So far mine is the highest HP twin screw powered 3.8L known to exist and it still has the stock 190K mile lower end in it. Who thinks their motor is tough enough to outrun a 1.7L? I'll put the challenge out. It better be able to handle 20psi all the way up to 7000rpm.
Trash talk, ooooooooh!!
Randy N Connie
Registered User
FACT: Dave Dalkes parts have been flowed & wet flow tested.
I don't think that any other manifolds out there that are being
attemped to be made. Are being tested for proper flow balance rates.
I know what the balance flow rate is and the flow in CFMs
in some of Daves part.I don't think any testing is or has
been performed on GEORGE'S,MIKES, 007,and BT Motorsports
Rich T. manifolds setting under there blowers.
I can say that Dave has some happy pistons,all running with
the same amount of air.Better flow balance than ford produce.
I purfer to do balance and flow testing with the proper tools.
Instead of taking a chance of having a burnt piston.Or
cylinders that run at different tempatures and can't be
properly tuned.
The manifolds with the top open Vs the stock designed manifold
with air entering the back ,will flow more volume.But both designs
need vained or the proper inside shaped.To have a balanced flow.
I believe that a air to air heat exchange.Is far better for performance
than the tiny radiator under the blower.Or you can stick a thicker
water heat exchanger under the blower.And have the blower sticking
up in the middle on the windshield.I believe the air to air to be the best.
Because water,ice ,gas,air can be used for cooling.And easily upgraded
as time passes by.The engine bay would look cleaner with the
water to air manifold setup.But not so easy to upgrade.
But this all do's not matter with unbalance manifold air flow.
And cylinders that can't be tuned close to the same tempatures.
There is TALK and there is Dave, GOT-UR-DONE the right way.
Thanks Randy
I don't think that any other manifolds out there that are being
attemped to be made. Are being tested for proper flow balance rates.
I know what the balance flow rate is and the flow in CFMs
in some of Daves part.I don't think any testing is or has
been performed on GEORGE'S,MIKES, 007,and BT Motorsports
Rich T. manifolds setting under there blowers.
I can say that Dave has some happy pistons,all running with
the same amount of air.Better flow balance than ford produce.
I purfer to do balance and flow testing with the proper tools.
Instead of taking a chance of having a burnt piston.Or
cylinders that run at different tempatures and can't be
properly tuned.
The manifolds with the top open Vs the stock designed manifold
with air entering the back ,will flow more volume.But both designs
need vained or the proper inside shaped.To have a balanced flow.
I believe that a air to air heat exchange.Is far better for performance
than the tiny radiator under the blower.Or you can stick a thicker
water heat exchanger under the blower.And have the blower sticking
up in the middle on the windshield.I believe the air to air to be the best.
Because water,ice ,gas,air can be used for cooling.And easily upgraded
as time passes by.The engine bay would look cleaner with the
water to air manifold setup.But not so easy to upgrade.
But this all do's not matter with unbalance manifold air flow.
And cylinders that can't be tuned close to the same tempatures.
There is TALK and there is Dave, GOT-UR-DONE the right way.
Thanks Randy
Last edited:
XR7 Dave
Registered User
CMac89 said:
You are right, it hasn't proven itself yet. However, the blower has proven itself many times over in other applications. The 1.7L is used on the KB 2000 Cobra kits not to mention the KB (AR) blower design is quite proven. What isn't proven is the quality and durability of the parts I've added to the blower. However, since none of said parts are moving parts, fatigue is the most important concern and nothing other than time can really provide that data (at least with the "extensive" test facilities available to me) lol. If people wait 4 years for some durability feedback to come in, they will miss out on all the fun.
Performance-wise we have exceeded the best M90 based performance by up to 100rwhp all other things being equal. What we have not been able to do is place the blower on a motor capable of the high rpm necessary to test the output of the 1.7L. No Eaton based motor has yet been built with the rpm capability necessary. Even Coy Miller engines will require some redesign to support the rpm capability of this blower.
Now, as for the challenge, you can't challenge unless you have the motor to meet said challenge.
And if I'm in Indy any time soon I'll be sure to show you what the 1.7L is capable of, either below 3000rpm or above it. David
David Neibert
SCCoA Admin
It's already proven itself. In the past it was impossible to exceed 300 rwhp on stock heads and a stock cam. In fact the Coy Miller stage II cars were barely reaching those numbers with ported blowers.
Now, a stock longblock SC can reach more than 325 rwhp by using the more efficent twin screw blower. A heavily modded motor like mine could easily reach 450 rwhp.
David
Dave, you said you havent seen a short block that would hold up to a big A.R? Let see I have a balanced short block with a Coy Miller gurdle, 351 forged rods, forged pistons, head work with bigger valves, o-ringed block, all ARP bolts and head studs. Cam, Harland Sharp roller rockers. Chip. Built trans. What else do you need. Besides a ton of money that I dont have yet? And may be if I get luckey some where down the line a custom intake by the one we all know and love.
And may be if I get luckey some where down the line a custom intake by the one we all know and love.
David Neibert
SCCoA Admin
Tim,
I think the New limiting factor on an SC motor will be keeping the heads from lifting. With only 4 bolts surrounding the cylinder and a relativly thin deck, I don't think a stock displacement motor will be able to withstand the cylinder pressure needed to make much more than 450 rwhp.
A longer stroke and larger bore would provide more power without increasing the cylinder pressure and would likely support over 500 rwhp without lifting the heads. I'm guessing that's why some people are starting to seriously consider going to a sleeved block.
David
007_SuperCoupe
Registered User
Randy N Connie said:
Randy, before making comments on what other are doing, please get the facts straight. I don't want to step on your toes here, but you've included me in some very high company in your comment, and I plan to extensively flow test the manifold. The others you have mentioned are much more knowledgeable than I am so I would have to guess the opposite. I don't know, so I"m not going to comment on whether they are testing or not.
David Neibert
SCCoA Admin
tim said:
Yeah maybe so...but then it wouldn't be a Super Coupe
David
XR7 Dave
Registered User
Tim, sorry but you don't have anywhere near the camshaft or headflow necesary for the job. At least you have solid screw-in studs on top of the heads though!
Keeping the heads on is not something I'm concerned about in testing the limits of the blower. What I am concerned about is valvetrain stability and camshaft designs that will support the kind of rpm necessary to flow the air this blower is capable of. This is the area that even Coy Miller engines need help with. He does not design even the SIIR motors for the kind of rpm I'm looking for. This does not suggest that a CMRESIIR motor is not capable of testing the blower, what it means is that all existing 3.8's in this community are built with the M90 in mind and the rpm limitations of that blower. They have not been built with the rpm's in mind that we are looking for. That will very soon change, which is why I'm actively looking for someone ready to test.
By limiting boost levels to 20psi I do not feel that cylinder sealing will be the biggest problem nor do I feel that additional displacement is really necessary. In fact larger displacement will render the testing pretty much invalid for the rest of us since most people will be running 3.8L.
David
Keeping the heads on is not something I'm concerned about in testing the limits of the blower. What I am concerned about is valvetrain stability and camshaft designs that will support the kind of rpm necessary to flow the air this blower is capable of. This is the area that even Coy Miller engines need help with. He does not design even the SIIR motors for the kind of rpm I'm looking for. This does not suggest that a CMRESIIR motor is not capable of testing the blower, what it means is that all existing 3.8's in this community are built with the M90 in mind and the rpm limitations of that blower. They have not been built with the rpm's in mind that we are looking for. That will very soon change, which is why I'm actively looking for someone ready to test.
By limiting boost levels to 20psi I do not feel that cylinder sealing will be the biggest problem nor do I feel that additional displacement is really necessary. In fact larger displacement will render the testing pretty much invalid for the rest of us since most people will be running 3.8L.
David