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Thread: Switching ABS to Conventional.

  1. #16
    Let me revise what I said. There's plenty of vac on the inlet plenum when there's no crosstalk tube in place.

  2. #17
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    I have an 89 that I want to try this system on, what about the wiring harness? I want to say there are about 4 plugs that go into the assembly. How did you deal with it?

  3. #18
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    The Crown Vic master cylinder has 3 lines coming out of it. Two of them for the front brakes, and 1 line for the rear brakes. When you take out the useless piece of crap, make sure you trace the lines, so the right ones go to the right places, but that kinda goes with saying, right? I type all this info into these threads, with tongue in cheek, knowing full well there are a lot of readers out there who simply won't destroy the "integrity" of their SC. A lot of people want to keep their cars all original. To that, I say, a 1957 Chevy,(or '56 Ford Crown Victoria, for that matter), is a beautiful car with really lousy brakes. Why wouldn't you want to upgrade them? I wouldn't want to drive one of those classics in heavy traffic with all the little rice-burner go-karts whizzing in and out of traffic around me. My 25 cents worth. John V.O.

  4. #19
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    Sorry Flip, I didn't notice your post till now. I simply unplugged them, and tied them out of the way, in case some restorer 30 years from now finds this hulk in a junkyard and thinks he can fix it. I stated earlier that I just pulled the fuse out of the fusebox to make the abs light on the dash go out. If you think about it, the ABS system itself has to be a stand alone system. If not, you wouldn't have any brakes when a wire broke or something like that. There isn't a car manufacturer in the world that would take on that type of liability. That's probably the best thing about abs, is that if it quits, you still have brakes. Just unplug the wires and forget about them. I use my computer at work, am going on 3 days off, if anyone has any questions, I'll check back in here on Friday. John V.O.

  5. #20

    Question What about the clutch MC?

    Well John; I have a question, You mentioned about using a booster form a '89 or '90 non SC Bird, and the MC from a '93 Vicky, that's all fine and makes sense, ( since Napa wants $1775 for a re built ABS pump, good thing Prior is still somewhat affordable at $695) the problem I see is with the clutch MC.

    Is there enough clearance around the booster to still fit the clutch MC?
    I can see if you are running an auto trans, but with a 5 speed there might not be enough room. I have not really paid too much attention to the newer ('92 on) birds where this issue is concern, but my '90 seems to be real tight in that area, and it makes me wonder if I should look for a different booster based on the assumption of space.

    Your thoughts please....

    Thanks; Dslsmoke

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dslsmoke
    Well John; I have a question, You mentioned about using a booster form a '89 or '90 non SC Bird, and the MC from a '93 Vicky, that's all fine and makes sense, ( since Napa wants $1775 for a re built ABS pump, good thing Prior is still somewhat affordable at $695) the problem I see is with the clutch MC.

    Is there enough clearance around the booster to still fit the clutch MC?
    I can see if you are running an auto trans, but with a 5 speed there might not be enough room. I have not really paid too much attention to the newer ('92 on) birds where this issue is concern, but my '90 seems to be real tight in that area, and it makes me wonder if I should look for a different booster based on the assumption of space.

    Your thoughts please....

    Thanks; Dslsmoke
    There is enough room. I've done it already, I just didn't know about the MC and the one I used didn't work well. It's pretty much clear sailing fellas. The OE ABS system IS a stand alone system. You can yank the entire setup if you want, you will have to seperate the wire harness from the ARC harness unless you have already ditched that too......
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  7. #22
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    Dave,
    How did you get the booster in place? I worked on mine a couple of hours the other day and had hell of a time tiring to get it into place. Ended up cracking a small chip out of the plastic assembly on the pedal side. Had to drop off of it for a couple of days for another project. Need to pickup another booster also, before I try again.

  8. #23
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    Dave is right, it does fit. My car has a 5-speed, and I did not have to remove the clutch cylinder or any of its parts. If you are able to look at the donor car for the booster, you will notice there isn't much room between the end of the brake master cylinder and the inner wheelhousing. I'm pretty sure that's why this particular booster is so skinny,( approx. 3 inches thick) or so. The Crown Vic booster is the one I would have preferred to use, as it was matched to the master cylinder, by the engineers at Ford. It was probably 4 inches thick, or more, if I remember correctly, and there's no way the master cylinder would clear the inner wheelhousing on the T-bird, if I had used it. I had no idea if there would be enough boost or not, till I tried it, and I'm sure the engineers would pipe up and say it won't work, but guess what, it works fine. When you begin to install the booster, make sure your children, wife and the minister of your church are nowhere near. Its a terrible job, but it has to be done. I figured Ford had to design it to come out of there somehow, if it ever failed, (I'd like to punch some of those engineers). If I had to do it again, I think I might remove the motor hood, so I didn't have to lean in underneath it for so long. I think the perfect time to do this would be when the engine is already out of the car for a rebuild, so you can climb in there to work on it. Then again, is there anything easy about working on any car nowadays? John V.O.

  9. #24
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    John,
    Any way you could post pic's on what you have installed? I ended up putting the ABS unit back in with a rebuilt motor for now. But when I do the head gaskets and have to top end off I want to try the installation again. Seems like it would be nice to have the lower IC off and out of the way. The 2 ea. 93 crown Vic police Interceptor's that I found had only 2 brake lines coming off the MC not three? You know a picture is worth a thousand words...
    The wife wants her 89 5-speed to stay on the road....
    Thanks, for posting this.
    Flip

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flip
    John,
    The 2 ea. 93 crown Vic police Interceptor's that I found had only 2 brake lines coming off the MC not three? You know a picture is worth a thousand words...
    I think maybe that is why he said *except* Police Intercepter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jvo
    We looked at bore and stroke sizes, and the 1993 Crown Victoria, (ex police car) had the same bore and stroke master cylinder on it, as well as a front/rear braking system, 'cause its also a rear wheel drive car. I had to use the lowline T-bird booster though, because it is only about 3 inches thick. The Crown Vic booster was substantially thicker, and if you tried to bolt it to the firewall, then bolt the master cylinder to it, it would hit the inner wheelhousing on my Super Coupe, because of the strut type suspension. So,,,,, use the NON-ABS booster from a '89 T-bird, and the master cylinder from the 1993 Crown Victoria police car. John V.O.
    Guess I keep looking at the second description not the first one.

  12. #27
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    Its funny really..............

    ABS is so bad and everything as is being indicated by several people here (by the sounds of it, not just the tbirds either, but overall) then I guess they'd better ground all the planes out there, cause that's even scarier considering the speeds and weight their dealing with AND how many souls are on board those.

    The way I look at it, if you have to hit the brakes that hard to lock the wheels up or close to it to have to get yourself stopped that quick, then ultimately you screwed up by not paying attention around you, going too fast for the current environment, and/or following to close........ Ask a cop, he'll tell you the same thing.

    I chatted with a friend of mine who's a cop and he's says every cop he's knows loves ABS brakes, cause it allows them to focus on steering the car etc without having to focus on how much brake pedal needs to be applied to prevent a lock up. Its called sensory overload, and by taking out 1 factor, like I just mentioned, allows the brain to deal with something else, like looking for an opening to get yourself out of the situation that you got yourself into.

    ABS brakes are there for emergencies, not for everyone to sit on and hit everyday so they can get the idea of tail gating everyone (like we all know happens), and from what I've been told..... the folks that are dead set against ABS brakes, don't know how to drive a car with ABS brakes, and that covers almost all drivers anyways until they are trained to drive properly.

    Now if we're talking about the system thats in the tbird, everyone yips about how bad it is, but from what I've been reading.... is it that bad???? It may not be perfect, but what is.... hell the ABS systems on jet airliners use the same principles as our cars do, so lets run to the local airport and start yanking out their brakes just because we don't like ABS LOL.

    The brakes in my car are solid and she'll stop on a dime without even engaging the ABS so whats the problem..... I do check my brake system like fluid etc as often as I check my engine oil, and I also know my car is 15 years old and the system is wearing down, so I'm going to be proactive with it..... hhhmmmm...... but wait, most folks know that certain parts of the car is getting old and they become proactive and swap the parts out, SO WHY NOT THE BRAKE SYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing lasts forever..... and since my car has become 15 years old, obviously to me the brakes are working ok as it hasn't been in an accident.....

    Point out to me a cronic brake failure problem with these cars when they where less than 5 years old and under 100,000 miles that shows more than 1% of the sc's built in fact have had total brake failure because of the ABS and I'll yank mine out, until then............... I'll maintain my existing system and be proactive. Maintenance schedules are there for a reason .

    Maintain the system properly, learn to drive properly and realize that when your driving, everybody else does NOT know how to drive, and ye shan't have any problems.

    Frit

  13. #28
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    Well, not to argue, but heck why not.

    1) Comparing abs on jet liners to our cars is not a valid comparison. Jet airplanes have completely different requirements for their brakes than we do. On jet planes it is ok to remove your seatbelt during flight. Is it ok to remove our belts when cruising down the highway? No it's not. Risk factors are completely different and therefore the technology and accompanying principles are not valid. Does ABS work? Yes it does and no one here is arguing that.

    2) Our ABS brake systems are all on the edge of reliability. The question remains, is the required maintenence worthwhile? I know I purchased my XR7 in 1990. The first (and only, I might add) winter I drove it in (1990-1991) everytime I got slow/slush on the sensors the system warning light would come on and the system would not work. When I needed it most it malfunctioned. Nothing was ever found to be wrong with it.

    3) It is common understanding that 10 years is the recommended life span of the accumulator. These are expensive replacement parts, and since all SC's are beyond 10 years old, all which have not been replaced need replacing. However, most people do not replace things until they fail. This is a known human nature thing and the fact that the system allows you to drive with a failing accumulator is reason enough to want to ditch the whole system. In it's early stages of failure an accumulator will function as normal until an extreme braking situation is encountered in which case you will have virtually no brakes at all. I've been there. Fortunately I didn't wreck the car but others have not been so fortunate. You could blame the owner on poor maintenance, but what good is it to do so if someone is dead or injured and property is damaged? In this case what is legally correct is not morally right.

    4) Using police drivers as an example of "expert" drivers is a poor example. Most police car drivers are marginal when it comes to actual performance driving. They know how to stomp the gas, how to stop in an emergency, how to avoid an accident, and how run people off the road. Most police drivers have no idea how to "finesse" a car, particularly a car that has good road manners and a tuned chassis. Police cars are boats and they are trained in how to drive them. Does an excellent truck driver make an excellent race car driver? I hope you don't think so. This doesn't suggest that police drivers suck, it's just that their experience and performance requirements are quite different that what some of us have, need or desire. FWIW I've seen policemen drive on race tracks. Not very impressive.

    Anyway, the decision whether or not to keep the ABS at this point in the car's life is certainly the choice of the individual and it should not be made out to be a poor one. 4wheel disc brakes do not lock up unexpectedly and/or uncontrollably and this car is no exception. The ABS system is indeed very primative in terms of modern ABS systems and is indeed marginal in it's job. It is very obtrusive when it kicks in removes from the driver the ability to modulate the brakes effectively. I've run up against the ABS only a few times in my life with this car and in each case it was more of an annoyance than a help. I'd rather not have it and I believe that my decision to delete it is an informed one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  14. #29
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    I totally agree its up to the individual if they want to drop the ABS or not, and heck I would do it to if the car if I was unable to get any parts for it.

    My points are more aimed at the individuals that need to justify removing their system by saying that ABS is totally useless and is garbage etc etc............ and they'd never drive a car with it and so on. Just remove the darn thing and get it done.... you don't need to justify it and ram it down everyone's throat that its totally useless (this doesn't include you Dave )

    The problem I have is I still drive my car like it doesn't have ABS, as its the first car I've ever had with ABS. My 2000 corolla doesn't even have it. Have I seen an advantage of one system over another..... maybe slight, as the ABS did kick in as I slid toward a minivan in front of me, but I was able to assess the situation quickly then steer myself over into the other lane because the oncoming traffic was stopped. Would I have been able to do that in the Corolla, yeah, but I know I would have been slighly more delayed as I would have had to pay attention to my wheels locking up so I could maintain steerability of the car.

    To be frank, both systems have their advantages, and is one any better than the other? Thats more up to an individual and their driving style.

    Personally I don't give a darn if I have it or not, just so long as the car can be stopped and be controlled easily in the process. Now I can hear someone piping up about total failures only happen because of the ABS system................... that would be funny to read cause I've seen regular brake systems totally fail as well

    Frit

  15. #30
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    My pressure switch went out during an emergency manuever once. I had to drive from Virginia to Michigan w/ a brake pedal that was stiff as a rock. Then the nightmare of getting the part ordered and UPS losing my package. Then trying to install it. Recently I was cut off and put the brakes down quickly. To the floor it went. And then right about 3 inches before slamming into an F-150 4x4's trailer hitch, my accumulator pressurizes and I have ABS. Luckily I didn't hit him. But boy was I pissed. I said a few not so kind words to him as I passed him and I held up my hand to show him that I thought he was #1.

    I have a new accumulator that I ordered sitting in my garage in MI. I'm going to install it, and if it gives me anymore problems I'm going to go to a junk yard and get a tbird booster and a crown vic master cylinder to use as cores when I go to an auto parts store to get remanufactured replacements. I don't know if I'd trust junk yard brake parts, but I will use them so I don't have to pay core charges at the parts store.

    Both of my SC's have leaking accumulators. I normally drive on dry roads. I want to put my foot down and stop, not wonder if the brakes are gonna kick in. Personally I learned to drive in a car that didn't have ABS. I learned how to threshold brake, and to pump while turning so you don't lock up and slide. True ABS makes it easier and less hassle, but too many people rely on it and if it failed the road would be a scary place. Especially in these big SUV's that people think they are invincable.
    Scott Long
    1992 SC 5-speed (will be a 12 second car if I ever put it back together)
    Black on black leather, lowered, 18x9 Chrome Saleens...

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