Snow Performance Alcohol injection kits available - Updated 07/13/06

Paul being the kit will be adding octaine and lowering air charge temp in reality you will not need larger injectors due to extra HP made from adding a methanol kit even if it involves a retune with more timing. With the heads and cam maybe. You can think of a methanol kit as a cheap way to add fuel and octaine when needed most..You can use a stronger mix then what Dave is using as well. However you will need to tune for that
 
ALtitudes and thin and Dense air adjustments...

I have spoken to a few people and what they seem to be saying is the problems at diffrent elevations.
For Instsance... Florida is in some places elevation is 6' MSL (Mean Sea Level) Now as I travel toward Carlisle, pa. or Ocklahome the Elevation or the MSL will change at varios points along the way. So from 6' MLS to 1000' MLS the air is thinner and also not as dence milehigh in Denver a good 1/4 mile is 14 seconds +. would that not mean that the tunning would have to be adjusted for the snow, kit. I spoke with Snow and It seems that we will need to re-tune our cars pretty often... David a while back you did not think this was a good system you maynot remember but you did not like this system... What has changed your mind now. I'm very interested in this system but I'm getting a little skeptical because we have enough issues with the SC specially the more we add to it's present set up. I know everytime I change one thing I need to change two others...I thought of using it with dual selenoids but that must have been a stupid question lol, you nor anyone responded, but I was thinking Nitrous not Snow. Could you explain or shed some light for me/us on the MLS and the way the Map sensor will adjust to diffrent altitudes, Also will the eec or the DIS compansate for all this :confused: I'm no expert but I know we have to set our altimeters on our planes to make sure that the altimeter will keep us right on when landing at diffrent altitudes also if you have ever taken off in thin air verses dense air things take a totally diffrent adjusting with the rich and lean cockpit settings!also a much longer runway or a short runway depending on the air density and teperatures. :eek:
Damon kind of explains it but I do not get the same answers from the people who make the Snow here and in England. It seem to me that it would be more of a racing type application just like nitrous but safer.
Thanks for your time...
Victor.........
 
I think I'll just continue to post results. Those who are interested can try it themselves. I'm not about to go on trial for a product that I found to be effective on my car.

I continue to enjoy 400+ rwhp and those at the Midwest Bash got to witness first hand how my car beat a 395rwhp Mark VIII by over .75 sec and 10mph on a hot day and how my car made 435rwhp and climbing on the dyno in the 90 deg heat. John Force doesn't spend his days off explaining how to run 4 sec 1/4 mile times, if you dont' get it then you just don't get it. :)

My car is a moving display of how to put together a 12 second MN12 and drive it daily. I drove it 450 miles to the Midwest Bash, bolted on the slicks, ran 5 low 12 second passes and then drove home. I feel that the Snow Performance kit was a big contributor in my being able to do that. My emphasis has been and always will be street performance. Honestly if you want a race only car then why mess with alcohol injection? Run race fuel and nitrous, its more effective. :cool:
 
I have to say, Victor's concerns with this setup are what are holding me back.
I have no doubt the system works, but just how can our cars compensate enough with extreme altitude changes.
I know from experience, running everwhere from 5,800ft(Denver) to St. Louis(800ft),that our cars when modified seem to have a tough time compensating for altitude changes (detonation occurs) even when you don't expect it.
I've run in Denver when corrected altitude is over 10,000 ft & my 340rwhp SC will only run 13.9-14.2 ETs, whereas it will run 12s at sea level.
As a means of comparison at all ford day (Denver) 2 weeks ago 05 GT mustangs were only turning 15.5- 15.7.
It seems as though this is just going to be one more thing that potentialy needs to be re-tuned everytime I change 1000ft in altitude, or It will possibly hurt rather than help performance.
Also as for the Shootout, if we can't tune before our dyno run how can a high elevation car possibly compete with someone who has a low elevation tune working for them?
 
David a while back you did not think this was a good system you maynot remember but you did not like this system... What has changed your mind now
From Victor

I think I'll just continue to post results. Those who are interested can try it themselves. I'm not about to go on trial for a product that I found to be effective on my car.
From Dave

Dave,

I think you very much do have to go on trial for a product you found have found worked for your car. After all you are selling it and pushing it as a performance enhancer. If Todd has a question as to elevation and the effectiveness in a car that will be going from high to low elevation he has every right as a potential customer for an explanation. All you need to do is explain why this kit would or would not be good for him and the theory behind your answer. This same answer would apply to anyone else asking this same question.

I also remeber you saying a methanol kit was a bad idea. I say just admit you were wrong. We all make misinformed decisions. It looks much worse (at least to me anyway) when I see somone constantly changing thier opinions on something as they get better informed...Without addressing their prior misinformation. A good way to start would be...I didnt have enough information on the product, never worked with it before and therefore made a poorly informed decision in the past regarding its capabilities. Then you would redeem yourself by saying why it is a great product and in what cases it would be a good or bad idea to use. It would then be up to the consumer to believe your sincerity or to think you are just trying to make a quick buck (which isnt what I believe by the way) Noone is born knowing everything..

Back in the 60's there was a car straight outta Buick that had an all aluminum v8 and alcohol injection from the factory. Needless to say they ran great...When properly maintained. (My grandfather owned one) Unfortunately they started blowing up left and right. They didnt respond well to no alcohol...Which leads too.....

A snow kit or any other methanol injection kit is not a simple bolt on when going for performance. If you are tuning your car for use with the alcohol...You need it all the time. without it and you will blow something up under the same EEC parameters tuned with the extra fuel and octane the kit will give you. Also to answer Todds question there is no way the kit will know what elevation you are at..Even with the MAF package. I would suspect you would have the same problems if not worse when changing altitudes with the addition of an Alchy kit.

So in the end being Dave is selling this kit we have every right as potential consumers to get educated information regarding its uses. Dave can choose not to but its bad buissness. And as far as I can tell it is a buissness, no?
 
DamonSlowpokeBaumann said:
From Dave

Dave,
I also remeber you saying a methanol kit was a bad idea. I say just admit you were wrong. We all make misinformed decisions. It looks much worse (at least to me anyway) when I see somone constantly changing thier opinions on something as they get better informed...Without addressing their prior misinformation. A good way to start would be...I didnt have enough information on the product, never worked with it before and therefore made a poorly informed decision in the past regarding its capabilities. Then you would redeem yourself by saying why it is a great product and in what cases it would be a good or bad idea to use. It would then be up to the consumer to believe your sincerity or to think you are just trying to make a quick buck (which isnt what I believe by the way) Noone is born knowing everything..

I've been following this for some time and want to chime in here.

No addressing the point that "Dave was wrong." I personally don't believe this to be the case. The kits he was referring to in the past delivered the alcohol as direct correlation to boost. That has been shown not to be effective in our precious SC. This kit delivers the alcohol as related to the MAF function. Apples and Oranges. I don't believe that Dave ever really meant that methanol injection was not good, but that the kits available at the time would not be effective on the SC. And I believe that he has addressed this in the threads relating to this kit.

Then as to the altitude question...Mere speculation here, but with the kit being dependent upon the MAF function...thinner air = less voltage on the MAF, right? So doesn't it stand to reason that thicker air would have a higher voltage? I'm sure that Todd doesn't build as much boost in Dever as he would somewhere in FL. Now there would be some fine tuning required to get optimal performance, but you're going to need that depending on humidity, temp, elevation, etc anyway if you're going for everything. Just some thoughts. I'm just looking at it all from a layman's point of view. I just thing some of this is getting over complicated.
 
I was in no way knocking Dave or said product, just giving my idea that these cars are already hard to tune with altitude variations. They actualy have limits the stock motor/electronics can deal with so when modified it only makes things worse.
So to add an alky system MAY just make the car more difficult & time consuming to tune for alt variations.
I believe in this system, I just have questions of its usefullness for me to use at an event where I'd have to re-tune (in short notice)to see its potential.
 
My consensus all along was that alcohol injection, CO2 sprayers, Nitrous oxide, are all temporary track only power adders. They aren't there all the time like a supercharger, turbocharger or stroker/head cam upgrade. Instead they rely on gases or liquids that need to be replenished. Therefore, right off the bat I threw this SNOW kit into a track only catagory.

It seems to me that the best way to use the kit would be with a flip or switchable chip. Kind of like how David Neibert uses his Nitrous. He has one file he runs on the street with, then flips his chip to the "nitrous file" and arms his system. I think the alcohol injection kit could be used in the same manner.

If you want to play around on the street, I don't know if a big alcohol reservoir would last longer than one or two big tanks of nitrous?

All I have to say is that when Kurt bolts his kit on and rips off an 11 at the track....I'll probably forget about ever trying to get close to his times again.

Micah
 
If anyone has misinterpreted my enthusiasm for a product which I have found to work on my car and I believe will work on other people's cars as "pushing" a product, then that is entirely your own doing. I have been and continue to be 100% open and honest about this and anything else I do to my car. Nothing more, nothing less.

Regarding claims that I have bashed the Snow or other alcohol systems in the past, I challenge anyone to back that up with any kind of fact. I will NOT make any excuses for my comments and I have NOT changed my opinions!

From a post in 2003 discussing fuel octane and detonation:

XR7 Dave said:
I would run 93. Before I tuned my car with the EEC tuner, I was having issues with detonation due to having removed the EGR. I was running a stock blower with a 10% pulley getting about 13 psi. I found that changing to Autolite 103 plugs gapped at .045" cured that detonation.

Then I went to an EEC tuner and started to increase timing. I found I got more power running up to 30 deg total timing. 31 degrees will detonate even with the colder plugs. On the advice of Brian H and a number of other people who have experience in this I backed the timing down to 28 degrees for pump gas but the car slowed down noticably at the track.

With the car at 31 degrees I noticed that the car was detonating again, and the addition of a 25-40% mixture of 107 octane stopped it but the car really wasn't any faster. Currently I run 26 at torque peak and 30 degrees at hp peak. I am running about 15psi on a 5% OD and it seems ok ( I run stock pistons etc). However, others who are running the stock spark plugs would disagree.

I believe that one of us was running up to 33 degrees with race fuel but it resulted in a melted piston. I don't think that race fuel really allows for that much more timing that it warrants it's use.

I think that spark plug selection is crucial to avoiding detonation in a competition motor. The 103's that I run are short tip and colder heat range than stock. It made a noticable difference in my car.

I guess my point is that we don't really run enough boost to warrant race fuel with the tune that the EEC has, and to retune the EEC to benefit from the race fuel significantly is not really worth it. People who have tried alcohol injection have had similar results.

Another thing to think about is that race fuel has different burning characteristics which results in a different a/f ratio. With the adaptive nature of the EEC, if you switch back and forth between the two you could end up running really lean at one point. Not sure if anyone really knows how long it takes the EEC to learn a new mixture. Not a nice thought IMO.

In this post I merely stated that others who have tried alcohol have not had significant success. You can see in that post that I provided detailed information about my tuning experience the like of which NO ONE before or after has ever done!

From another post which discussed alcohol injection some time ago:

XR7 Dave said:
Boost. The M90 is designed to operate at 8psi of boost. After 18psi it becomes nothing more than a heat pump and ceases to function as a forced induction device. It is also a fact that as a positive displacement blower, the M90 does not perform well on a larger displacement motor. It just doesn't move enough air. It is commonly known that 18 psi is achievable on pump gas (with a proper turbo or blower) and 24psi is common on race gas. Alcohol injection will help achieve 21psi or so on pump gas.

Yep, I'm bashing alcohol injection alright. :mad:


And more recently in 2004:

With proper tuning an SC will not pull timing on the "top end". I think that if you have a combination all sorted out with predicatable and consistant results, it may be possible to add alchohol injection and pick up some useable performance. However, no one here can tell me for sure that they have their combination well sorted out enough to say that except for Coy Miller and - oh - guess what, he doesn't use alchohol injection any more either.

All too often people start throwing bandaides at a problem before they really solve the issue in the first place. I believe that most of the situations where you see huge gains from an alcohol injection system you have other problems that were not properly addressed that are being covered up by the alchohol. (this was in reference to the up to 100hp gains claimed for non-intercooled 5.0s).

In the past we have not been able to properly diagnose tuning issues as they came up. Now with a better understanding of how the EEC works combined with some better tuning tools we can actually tune an SC properly and the results are rather amazing.

Plus, up to now we haven't had the ability to run 20+psi meaning we simply have not had the need for a detonation suppressant. I know that my car (17psi) did not run any better on race fuel than it did on pump gas even when tuned with both fuels. Something to think about.

And finally this response from me (about 6 months ago) when someone asked if 60-100HP was possible with a Snow Performance kit.

XR7 Dave said:
You won't get that much out of the SC tuning with alcohol. Because we already have an IC, aluminum heads, a better combustion chamber than the 5.0, a knock sensor, and a computer that knows what to do with boost, there really isn't that much to be gained.

These quotes detail my position on alcohol injection systems over the past 2 years here at the SCCOA. In case it is not clear to anyone else, I have stated more than once in the above quotes how others have had little or no success with alcohol injection. I would appreciate if anyone can show me that someone has had verifiable success with a kit other than the MAF controlled Snow Performance kit (which is NOT the kit that was being discussed in the post referred to above) on their SC.

I have tried my best to stay away from topics of which I do not have first hand experience and in that spirit I had previously contained my comments about alcohol injection to address what I had seen reported from people who had actually tried it. I did NOT make claims or assertions rooted in biases or opinions that I held because of some kind of vendetta against alcohol injection as Damon has stated.

By all means, don't buy the system if you don't think it will work and if anyone doesn't like what I have said or feels I am terribly in error then please, buy a kit from someone else. All I did was buy the system for myself, install it, test it and offer it to this group as a performance enhancer. That's all.

I have offered the kit with enthusiasm to some people whom I felt would really stand to gain from it. This was through a genuine desire to help these people out. I find it very disheartening that even the best intentions around here are met with cyncism and resentment from our members.

To answer Todd and Victor's questions: Until I have the chance to test a car at both altitudes, I will have no idea what kind of challenges you are going to face when changing altitude. That's my official answer. I have other ideas, but obviously they will only be fodder for more attacks so I will keep them to myself.

David
 
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Actually you dont use much alcohol and the best way to go would be to find a properly sized reseviour that would need refilling when your gas tank does (on average)...

I agree with Micah that to be on the safe side two tunes would be a great idea. Much liek a car tuned and built to run on race gas will nto properl;y run on 83 octane the same goes for the alcohol injection....But not everyone has that capability and not everyone has an SCT tuner or some kind of a flip chip.

As far as what I said about changing opinions on specific performance upgrades the alcohol injection was only one of many and had little to do with the NOT SO NEW invention of having it controlled by MAF voltage being that technology has been around for years. Just not through Snow.
 
DamonSlowpokeBaumann said:
I also remeber you saying a methanol kit was a bad idea. I say just admit you were wrong. We all make misinformed decisions. It looks much worse (at least to me anyway) when I see somone constantly changing thier opinions on something as they get better informed...Without addressing their prior misinformation.
Damon I just want to say thank you for fabricating lies about my integrity. I would appreciate if you would not take such a cavalier attitude towards the truth regarding what I have said in the past.
 
Micahdogg said:
All I have to say is that when Kurt bolts his kit on and rips off an 11 at the track....I'll probably forget about ever trying to get close to his times again.

Micah
If I get 11's by bolting on this kit, I'll eat my shorts....hell, I'll eat your shorts! But you should still forget about ever trying to get close to my times again.
 
Dave, Tryed using the link that you have for your email and cant seem to get it to work.
I talked to you at midwest bash about the snow kit, I would like to get one if you still have any. How much are they $425 plus shipping?
 
92tbird04 said:
Dave, Tryed using the link that you have for your email and cant seem to get it to work.
I talked to you at midwest bash about the snow kit, I would like to get one if you still have any. How much are they $425 plus shipping?

Email is mdkracing@alltel.net. They are still available.
 
I wanted to say my peace!

Then as to the altitude question...Mere speculation here, but with the kit being dependent upon the MAF function...thinner air = less voltage on the MAF, right? So doesn't it stand to reason that thicker air would have a higher voltage? I'm sure that Todd doesn't build as much boost in Dever as he would somewhere in FL. Now there would be some fine tuning required to get optimal performance, but you're going to need that depending on humidity, temp, elevation, etc anyway if you're going for everything. Just some thoughts. I'm just looking at it all from a layman's point of view. I just thing some of this is getting over complicated.

Hi Dave, everyone.....

I have been taking a closer look at this and want to say that After having looked at this more throughly, I believe this will work as you explain it being a tuning technician Here is what I can say. Any car would need some tuning for racing or even driving regularly if you went from 6'MLS to 2500' MLS. If you set this to only kick in at certain boost levels lets say 12psi it is a worthy injection and HP gaining enhancer. I did not want to jump into the these last discussions after I asked you some direct questions I have been asked direct questions and have had to answer them... I have had questions before ordering this kit or selling it to anyone who has asked me. what I thought about it... I wanted to know exactly what it would do? I have to answer questions all day long... If i were to place it on my car and not be able to drive from here to Colorado Mile high stadium or any event without a tuner of my own.... I know that if this is tuned properly, and you were to stay in the vicinity of the area you live in and not vary into high altitudes for a races lets say...It would be a great way to increase performance! I would recommend it to my customers in a second as long as they knew what to expect and what not to expect clearly. I have read more on this system and asked some pros more questions on this system they endorse it. I would concur with you and others that this is a good system as long as your clear on what to expect from it. My questions were to get some information that would make this systen something that some of us or all of us would be able to understand. The pros and the cons of a system like this. When planing to race it would need re-tuning for ultimate or best optimum performance! If your going to stay in you general area without a extreme change in altitude it is a worthy unit for local use without having to re-tune. I think it's a better than Nitrous, It burns cleaner and would be a blast to be able to get that instant power without hurting your engine. Much safer! I would recommend this to my customers, as long as I can explain it's funtionality. Also they need to undertand what to expect, and what not to expect. Any car will run diffrently as you change altitudes with or without this kit installed. I believe it's a viable alternative to Nitrous is many cases. To the serios drag or 1/4 mile enthusiast some may use Nitrous and some might be better of without it.
It's definatly much safer. I hope my comments did not lead to anyone mistrusting you and your intentions I do not believe that for a second. But yes Dave vendors and re-sellers are on trial... I am all the time. I have to basically prove my products to my customers or they will not buy them. I stand behind what I say and sell! I refund the money and pay for the freight... Been there done that I do not charge a restocking fees either.I will not exept merchandise tat has ben improperly intalled or used then returned! I look forward to a Snow kit from you or who ever. I just wanted to make my point clear. I also like updates when things are not on time. I'm sure others do also...If I can't deliver on time for any reasons, I find a way to get word out that things are behind due to A Hurricane or because the MFG delay (s). I had to do this last year during the hurricanes, Paul Protos, I called him to do me a favor and advise everyone of our situation :eek: He put the word out for me. :) When I could not deliver goods on time! due to the hurricanes.... I believe you are Honest and reputable, I beleive you have a large following and that this will continue to grow. I wanted to make myself as clear as possible. I also wanted some answers and Sunshine... I have a letter to mail to you about other subject and real good idea that may interest you or not?. I'm have a store to run and I have to be constatly be ready to be met with sketisism. I'm always on trial. I have been on trial with many of your friends for awhile now. I'm ready to meet skeptisism with answers when ever I have to or need to. It's not easy being a Vendor sometimes... But I enjoy helping the same as you do or we would not risk ourselves.... Thank you for your explanations We compete that's fact in some areas we should not your a technician you do not have the cost of invetory, monthly store expenses, and a lot's more! You are Al A Carte! With Buy In's here and Buy In's there no large risk of inventory losses $$$. I was told I could sell a chip for you You have never allowed me. It does not matter to me. What matters to me, is not hurting anyone intentionaly. That's it Dave. Good Luck to you! I hope you undertand somethings I tried to explain open heartedly without any fears of retrabution. from anyone. I try my best to please everyone. But It's not possible to do so 100%... Like Dan Holleran said to me "Victor you have to be more thick skinned and not expect everyone will buy from you or like you" I learned what he meant quick! You Know what I mean. We do our best to please everone. I'm Glad we spoke David I undertand much more about this system I would recommend it to my group, I plan to also purchase one.
I hope you think about my Ideas and what I offered. Thank you for your time.
I'll see you in August. I'll need you at the Florida Shoot out. We are having real severe wether today Saturday. Heave Winds Tornadoes, we have lost pewr twice but we are still on line. Good luck, Panhandle folks, You have a Big one coming at you! Call us if you need our help, Water, Generators, any assistance we can render to any one. God Bless you all. Stay Safe!!! We are loosing pwer any second.Winds inexcess of 65MPH. Tornadoes Sirens going off. 3rd time :eek:
352-732-5013

Best Regards,
Victor......
 
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Selenoid mounting/wiring instructions....

supercatxr7 said:
DSC08180.jpg


DSC08182.jpg

Best I can tell from your pics, you mounted the nozzle at a level above the reservoir b/c you don't have an IC correct? If true then can I assume you did not use the selenoid? For those that have used the selenoid, DAVID DALKE, I assume I mount it between the pump and nozzle, but where/how did you mount it and which number (1 or 2) on the selenoid is the IN and which the OUT? Also, what is the dial/knob on the end? A manual shut off maybe? There are also two black wires...where do they go? Ground and 12VDC key on maybe? No instructions came with mine that addresses the selenoid as you can see. Lastly, where are people tapping into key-on power? I tapped into the ignition wire under the steering column for my gauges, but it is getting a little cramped there AND I don't like to tap into the same wire too many times.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I actually get into it (beyond the study phase I am in now). I wonder what a shop would charge to install the system in case I decide to not take the time to do it. Any guesses? $200-$300???

Crapola... I looked for a place to mount the reservoir and pump, and have come to the conclusion that the only place I can put it is where the battery is. So, I'll have to move the battery to the trunk, which comes with it's own set of issues like a shut-off switch in the trunk b/c I plan to run drag and need to abide by NHRA rules. This install may have to wait for now.
 
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pablon2 said:
Best I can tell from your pics, you mounted the nozzle at a level above the reservoir b/c you don't have an IC correct? If true then can I assume you did not use the selenoid? For those that have used the selenoid, DAVID DALKE, I assume I mount it between the pump and nozzle, but where/how did you mount it and which number (1 or 2) on the selenoid is the IN and which the OUT? Also, what is the dial/knob on the end? A manual shut off maybe? There are also two black wires...where do they go? Ground and 12VDC key on maybe? No instructions came with mine that addresses the selenoid as you can see. Lastly, where are people tapping into key-on power? I tapped into the ignition wire under the steering column for my gauges, but it is getting a little cramped there AND I don't like to tap into the same wire too many times.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I actually get into it (beyond the study phase I am in now). I wonder what a shop would charge to install the system in case I decide to not take the time to do it. Any guesses? $200-$300???

Crapola... I looked for a place to mount the reservoir and pump, and have come to the conclusion that the only place I can put it is where the battery is. So, I'll have to move the battery to the trunk, which comes with it's own set of issues like a shut-off switch in the trunk b/c I plan to run drag and need to abide by NHRA rules. This install may have to wait for now.

The nozzle is in the lower tube, you can't see it in the pick. It is not mounted high. I zip tied the solenoid to the radiator support, it is not visible. It doesn't matter on the solenoid either end will work for in and out. One black wire goes to positive, the other to ground, again doesn't matter which end.
 
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