When is a Coy Miller Race Engine not actually a Race Engine?

Sounds to me like the same one rebuilt. Maybe the case is slightly warped and under load the rotors hit the case? Who knows.
 
Sooner or later if you run this blower with too much overdrive it will eat up bearings and it can even lock up.I had a early blower on my stroked engine and had a jackshaft pulley machined for me as i was only getting 6lbs of boost.I installed the pulley and my boost went to at least 15lbs,it was heaven.Then after about six weeks of this i was on the highway cruising along with a firebird with the ram air options and i hear this growling noise.I get off the throttle and it goes away,so i get back into the throttle and to make a long story short the bearings went bad and the rotors locked up in the case and fused.It burned the belt off of the blower and the engine stalled out at high speed.I am not saying that this can happen all the time but i am just telling all that it can happen if you overdrive the blower too much for too long.These blowers were not meant to be in an overdriven state for long periods at a time.This is why i thought that he might want to try the "AR" as it does not use so much overdrive to achieve much more boost than our blowers can over long periods of time such as road racing.
 
Sorry that i did not indicate this but it was a early blower not a mpii,it still does not matter.The design of the blower being cast not machined is the weak link.
 
Hey Gang:

Charles admitted himself that the MPII blower is not going to work for Ralph's application. Yet he has not offered to take back the blower and refund Ralph's money, and I'm pretty sure he has even charged Ralph to have the blower rebuilt in the past (how about that for a warranty?).

The blower actually has a plastic part in it. Now, this is a blower that is suppose to hold up to heavy duty use, yet has a plastic part inside, I think to hold a shaft in place if I remember correctly. Now think about that. In a Road Racing application, you've got this blower turning at some ungodly RPM, for 30+ minutes at a time. Not that Ralph has ever gotten to use it that way, the most he's gotten out of it was maybe 5 laps at a time. But think about that. 5 laps at 2 minutes a lap is equivalent to 54 11 second drag runs. How many of you guys have made 54 back to back pulls down the drag strip without letting everything cool down. How many of you even make 54 pulls in a single year??? We're basically talking about 10 minutes of full boost here in only 5 laps. And there's a plastic part inside there helping hold this thing together when there is already some pretty tight tolerances. If something doesn't hold up (plastic???) tolerances are going to be compromised....

Think about it all this way, and put yourself in Ralph's shoes. You've spent $9K, or $11K, or whatever the Stage II R motor costs, then you've spent money with Charles at Magnum powers, you've lost event registration fees because people said that the car would be done, and it wasn't so you lost your money. You've spent tons of money in Fuel going from NC to Virginia towing the car, and you've had to pay Coy a 2nd time to disassemble/reassemble the engine. And you STILL have a car that has more miles on it being pushed around in different shops, on/off trailers, etc, than it has actually been driven. Who would you be pissed at? I'd be pissed at anybody involved that has taken my money and not delivered an item to me that I can use.

Regarding Charles, his customer service seems to rate right up there with a dentist who decides to pull your wisdom teeth without numbing you first.

Regarding Coy's side of this, the engine ain't worth alot without the blower. Its all a system, it all has to work together. Whether you want to call it a kit, a package, a system, it doesn't matter, one is useless without the other. In my Porsche 3.3L engine, with only 7.0:1 compression, I make about 150-200hp without the turbo bolted up. With the turbo, I get real power that catapults my car up to 169mph. But, it all goes together. It doesn't matter in the least how well I assembled that engine, or how good the parts are inside of it, etc, without that turbo. I'd have Hondas outrunning me on the track :( ... This engine will generate more HP without the blower than mine would, but its still the same logic, the engine isn't worth the scrap price of metal without it working together.

I'll ask Ralph some of the other questions you guys posted. My feedback here is totally independent of Ralph, and are strictly my opinions, as an observer of this fiasco.

Brian
 
I think it would be in these vendors best interest to not jump on this thread and join in on the blame shifting and finger pointing. They should have the morals to get in contact with Ralph and work something out and let him post about the outcome. We all know people get defensive when a finger is pointed at them, its human nature. It takes a man to not lower himself to name calling and finger pointing. A real man would stand up for his shortcommings and do what it takes to make it right even if it wasn't profitable at this point. Whats a refund worth to you if you can save face and sell more blowers? I'd like to see the motor with a good blower. After that if you have ENGINE problems, then deal with coy. Sounds to me like you have supercharger problems and that is up to Charles to work something out with you or refund your money in full or whatever he choses to do. I hope it all works out for you. I'd love to see this car when its all straightened out.
 
Wow! I was also one who read about this 18-20 months ago...geez this is ridiculous! Sorry to hear about your hardships when it comes to this matter, I hope that in the long run you get what is due to you. You sound like a very paitent man on this entire venture. I know after the 1st or 2nd time I probably would have lost my cool and said some choice words.

I have to agree with Scott that it would be a stand up act to refund the monies owed for parts that were never even used in a non tested enviorment. Again I think I would have lost my cool probably after the 1st $1000+ blower to go kaput. Shoot testing purposes have to have some value to them...

Again, sorry for your troubles. I hope one day you will have the engine package you desire.

-Tim
 
Mansier has had his SC on a road course. At least one other person I know regularlly runs his SC on a road course. Granted the motors may not be built up as much as a Coy Stage II.

The plastic part is likely the coupler that hooks the snout shaft to the drive gears for the rotors. Plastic is probably not fair, as it should be a nylon embedded composite part.

It's really too bad that someone had to have this kind of experience. I can see how it can happen. It would be well worth it for this car owner to learn enough internet stuff to find this and a couple other websites. Lots of people here that are willing to help with these things.
 
darkstar_one said:
man this is sad! thank god i dont let nobody touch my engine but me or my dad!

im with ya there. No shops touch or build my motors. Do it myself so i know whats being done.

sorry to hear about your problems dude. :(
 
At this point in time, I'm the last person on earth that could tell folks what is/isn't wrong with the motor or the blower.... BUT!

With everything I have ever read in these forums, I would say at least 98% of the SC owners out there are only after better 1/4 mile times or how fast they can get from light to light (despite that being illegal)... and not road racing (sanctioned races that is) or autocross etc. Now knowing that the makers of power adders are only interested in how good the bottom line is, then they will build us parts for the drag strip.... as those folks will make them the most money, and I would say that those guys would look at what they already have and say this one will work without actually looking at the changes that have to be made for the scenario.... why would they, it would cost ALOT of $$$$ to do the research to build the right motor for racing other than dragging.

According to some articles I have read the SC was built to sit on the autobahn and run with the Beamer's and Mercs, so in stock form, the motor and blower can hold its own for "hours" on end... so we have a cool car in stock form that can run comfortably at 120mph....

I have a feeling that in order to keep that long running ability but faster, the motor is going to have to be built up accordingly, and if the M90 needs to be overdriven to handle that HP, its going to be maxed out real quick but the end result will be killing it quicker, and the AR blower may be the option as it can give ALOT of gains but stay within its own tolerances.

Coy may have to think along those lines to build that killer motor that can run in races other than dragging, instead of substituting something that may work but originally designed for drag.

Frit
 
briankeithsmith said:
Think about it all this way, and put yourself in Ralph's shoes. You've spent $9K, or $11K, or whatever the Stage II R motor costs, then you've spent money with Charles at Magnum powers, you've lost event registration fees because people said that the car would be done, and it wasn't so you lost your money. You've spent tons of money in Fuel going from NC to Virginia towing the car, and you've had to pay Coy a 2nd time to disassemble/reassemble the engine. And you STILL have a car that has more miles on it being pushed around in different shops, on/off trailers, etc, than it has actually been driven. Who would you be pissed at? I'd be pissed at anybody involved that has taken my money and not delivered an item to me that I can use.
I have to do this and then some every year with drag cars. Welcome to HIpo land.
 
The car doesn't necessarily need an AR on it, but it does need some common sense applied to the package.

In order for this to be anything other than rant by a dissatisfied customer everyone involved will have to put aside feelings and egos and face the facts of the situation.

The first time the headgaskets blew that should have been an indication that either a) tuning is a big issue (responsibility of owner/driver) b) the motor has too much boost (also responsibility of the owner/driver). These motors have issues with cylinder sealing and cooling. These are known problems and is a limitation that must be dealt with. Race engine or no, you can't make the motor into something it is not.

When the motor blew headgaskets the first time, that was an immediate sign that it needs the following parameters monitored, checked, and ultimately changed. Not once, but every time the car is run until such time as the car has a history and reliability record.

1) ignition timing
2) intake air charge temperatures
3) engine coolant temps
4) a/f ratio
5) boost (blower drive ratio), which leads us into the next issue.

The blower. If you are breaking belts, then it should be obvious that you are spinning the blower too fast. 1 shredded belt is one too many on the race track. You have to adjust drive ratios until the belt doesn't slip. In this case if you had lowered drive ratio's until the blower belt did not slip then most likely you would have eliminated all your issues entirely.

Guess what? You may not be able to maintain the power levels of your buddy's Posche with the 3.8L Ford. Which leads me to the next question, just how much power did the motor make on the dyno? Boost is not an all-inclusive number. A highly efficient motor will consume air and consequently create cylinder pressure at much greater rate per any given boost level than an innefficient motor. 25psi boost on a stock motor is NOT the same as 25psi boost on a CMSII motor. Most likely if you need 75#/hr injectors then you are creating cylinder pressure which is lifting the heads right off the block even if you only see 16-17psi manifold pressure.

It seems to me that the original poster is trying desperately to make the motor into something it is not. His position seems to be "hey, I bought a race motor, I want to race it." If that is what you want, then buy something that is proven to work. Get a Posche, get a Mustang, get a Corvette. You want to be different and show the "big boys" what you can do in your T-bird, then you have to be prepared to do the research yourself. It's an expensive process even if everything doesn't go wrong.

Maybe I've got it all wrong, but I know darn well that if that were my car there would be a whole lot more data being presented than it blew headgaskets, shredded belts and seized blowers. Even 10 laps on a track is plenty of time to gather volumes of data that would have answered most all questions. Personally I would have run the car on the track the first 2-3 times out at no more than 10psi anyway. You should never run a race motor full bore first time out. This would have given you some completed races from which to evaluate results.
 
I too did some thinking about this issue and COMPLETELY agree with the boost issue. I would drop the boost (and ten seems to be right) to see IF I could run it there. The HG issue may not even bee what it looks like. I THINK if it is blowing the gaskets, the heads are lifting under the pressure, and since you are running for a while at a time, the combustion gasses are burning them and causing the internal leak. I can only speculate what happened on the DYNO but I dont even know if I am correct. I would drop the OD down to a workable level and see what you can do. Do a search for MANSIER and you should contact him about his car.

Chirs
 
XR7 Dave:

Call Ralph. Here's what I know...

1. Coy did the original tune for the engine. However, Ralph's PCM didn't accept the program for whatever reason. Thus the change to the TEC3. So now they have full flexibility with all of the parameters. Coy personally selected Larry at HP Werks to help do the TEC3 tune. Larry is excellent. His work on the tune has been good. I'd like to get my car up there with my TEC3, but he's like 6 hours from me, so its kind of hard to do.

2. When it originally blew the gaskets, it was on the dyno, with all of the items you mentioned being monitored. Ralph also has a UEGO 1000 (www.efisystems.com) wideband air fuel meter on his car. So its easy to monitor Air fuels while driving and while on the dyno, in addition to any parameters the dyno is capturing.

3. Coy knew about the belt issues from the beginning. He never mentioned any changes to pulleys, etc (to my knowledge).

4. The laps Ralph turned on track weren't hot laps guys. I was there. I know he was being cautious with the engine, taking it easy, etc. Sure, the car was set up to turn full boost at 16-17 psi, so it was probably full boosting at 16-17 psi, but he wasn't going out there hammering the thing. And no, no data from those short stints. His lap times were generally slower than what he was running at the track with the old engine config, so he couldn't have been hammering the thing that hard.

Call Ralph though. He's open to anyone's ideas/feedback/thoughts. But he's not a computer guy. There's no telling how long it took him to get his wife to type all of that up.

Brian
 
The same pulley setup and blower on my car that is making 17 psi on your car may make somewhere around 23-24 psi on my car. Since the stage 2 R motor and heads are very efficient 17 psi may be way too much. It may be able to take more once properly tuned, but from an M90 blower the sealed bearings won't withstand the rpms required to produce the boost. The autorotor supercharger can produce more boost without spinning it so fast, that might be one option. I know your engine could handle that once you get the timing and air/fuel dialed in correctly. Or you could run a procharger, those are designed to turn fast and not seize up and produce a ton of boost. Basically a belt driven turbo. Or you could custom install a turbo on the car. Also if you're breaking belts there is belt slippage. You could run a helper spring on the tensioner, larger pulley, smaller crank pulley and smaller jackshaft pulley, or switch to a 10 rib belt setup, but anyhow if your seizing up blowers while they are slipping, if you stop the belts from slipping but keep the blower spinning at such high rpms then you will still burn up the bearings in it.

So if you want to stick with an M90, you will have to run a larger pulley for less boost and it should prevent it from breaking belts also. 2 problems solved. But if you need more hp still then you will need to look into other blowers.

Now if you get that figured out and its still blowing headgaskets you will have to look at why its blowing head gaskets. Tuning, heat, too much timing, not high enough octane fuel, knock sensor not working properly.... I would go back to the Ford EEC computer and sell your TEC 3.

Now if all that gets straightened out and you have actual internal engine problems then I'd be on the phone with coy and have him fix it. If you are pulling rocker studs out of the heads, or spin a bearing, or have a knock in the engine, etc...

So far it seems all your problems can be fixed by lowering the boost and getting a proper tune.
 
Reguardless of the Wideband logging without a complete logging system to dump the data to, so that you can see AFR at different points in the RPM band then the Wideband is pretty useless.

Any person doing ANY racing of ANY sort should have some kind of data logging that will graph RPM against Timing/AFR/Knock/Boost/Water Temp


I wouldn't race my car the way it is without logging and it's only a bolt on car.
 
The TEC3 does do datalogging. He has a toggle switch wired up to the tec3 to turn datalogging on/off.

It will record all engine parameters, AFR's, up to 4 external inputs, for about 13 minutes at 5 samples per second.

Brian
 
I think Doug Franklin still runs his sc in an autocross. You might want to do a search for him and get some pointers too.

Chris
 
Does doug use a stock blower?

Mayeb just mayeb whats going bad is that nylon coupler which should have been changed out anyway
 
The TEC3 does do datalogging. He has a toggle switch wired up to the tec3 to turn datalogging on/off.

It will record all engine parameters, AFR's, up to 4 external inputs, for about 13 minutes at 5 samples per second.

Brian

Post the logs, would be interesting to see.
 
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