When is a Coy Miller Race Engine not actually a Race Engine?

I think Dave said something that was very important. The 3.8L has it's limits. If you don't want to go with proven small block Ford or Chevy performance (or even other cars, supra, porsche, Cobra) then you will have an expensive road ahead of you. The 3.8L has issues with the head design that will limit peformance. Does this mean it can't produce 1000HP? No, it just means you might have to pay $25,000 for the "worlds one and only" custom block and heads built to work with the Ford 3.8L components. If you have enough money and time you can make anything fast, but to chose an unpopular combination (and unproven) you can't expect to get lucky.

You also have a lot of misleading advertising in the aftermarket. If you've been around the block, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, you'll be pissed when your 80mm MAF doesn't produce 25 HP at the wheels for you. I'm not saying anything directly to the vendors invovled here, but it's not uncommon for most aftermarket manufactures to use somewhat inflated claims that don't live up 100% to the real world results.

In the end, I think your friend might have had some unreal expectations. Maybe they were unreal because he doesn't know any better....or maybe he was mislead...or maybe a little of both, but to some degree it sounds like he wasn't adequately prepared for what the real world would have produced. And whether right or wrong...people buy stuff all the time that just doesn't live up to the hype and alot of the time they don't get support, refunds or exchanges, instead they just get leary of future purchases. I hate that it cost this much money, but if he's willing to toss even more money at it, I think he can salvage a very respectible car. Plus it won't be a lost cause as he'll have paved the road for future SC road racers. Hey, back in 1996 people were shelling out a HeII of a lot of money for some pretty crappy performance at the drag strip. They wanted to be the first and paved the road and helped to streamline the process for guys who now spend half the money for the same performance.

Micah
 
I think Dave said something that was very important. The 3.8L has it's limits. If you don't want to go with proven small block Ford or Chevy performance (or even other cars, supra, porsche, Cobra) then you will have an expensive road ahead of you. The 3.8L has issues with the head design that will limit peformance. Does this mean it can't produce 1000HP? No, it just means you might have to pay $25,000 for the "worlds one and only" custom block and heads built to work with the Ford 3.8L components. If you have enough money and time you can make anything fast, but to chose an unpopular combination (and unproven) you can't expect to get lucky.

You also have a lot of misleading advertising in the aftermarket. If you've been around the block, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, you'll be pissed when your 80mm MAF doesn't produce 25 HP at the wheels for you. I'm not saying anything directly to the vendors invovled here, but it's not uncommon for most aftermarket manufactures to use somewhat inflated claims that don't live up 100% to the real world results.

In the end, I think your friend might have had some unreal expectations. Maybe they were unreal because he doesn't know any better....or maybe he was mislead...or maybe a little of both, but to some degree it sounds like he wasn't adequately prepared for what the real world would have produced. And whether right or wrong...people buy stuff all the time that just doesn't live up to the hype and alot of the time they don't get support, refunds or exchanges, instead they just get leary of future purchases. I hate that it cost this much money, but if he's willing to toss even more money at it, I think he can salvage a very respectible car. Plus it won't be a lost cause as he'll have paved the road for future SC road racers. Hey, back in 1996 people were shelling out a HeII of a lot of money for some pretty crappy performance at the drag strip. They wanted to be the first and paved the road and helped to streamline the process for guys who now spend half the money for the same performance.

Micah


Micah:

1. Expectations : Ralph spoke for quite a while with Coy regarding how he would use the engine, etc. Coy provided Ralph with info regarding approximately how much hp/torque the engine would produce. Coy and Ralph discussed the Road Racing aspect etc.

Here's my take. If Ralph had actually gotten to use the engine. Meaning actually come home successfully from an event without any major issues, and able to drive the car, I don't think it would be nearly as big an issue. Obviously, Coy cannot warranty how long the engine will last. We all know that. However, as a paying customer I think Ralph has the right to expect that he should get to use the engine, even if it were only for 2-3 events.

Do I think Ralph's expectations were incorrect or unrealistic? Hell no...
I don't think its unrealistic to expect an engine to last 2-3 events... (I'm not saying that's his expectations, I'm just saying that is not unreasonable in general I wouldn't think) That's only about 600-750 miles. But Ralph never had the opportunity to enjoy the engine. Never. Never ever. If he had, I'm sure his opinions of the situation would be different.

Can he salvage something useful. I think so. I think he's right on the cusp of that happening with the new approach he's taking. But its costing a ton in aditional $$, as if he hasn't spent a ton already.

And I certainly don't think its because Ralph doesn't know any better. He's got about 10 years of experience doing the circle track thing, so I'd say he should know a little about what to expect from an engine that's being wound out tight trying to make power. Its not like he's 16, just got his license and said, oh geez, I'm gonna soup up my SC and get 6 gazzillion hp or anything.
And oh, by the way, I expect that engine to be warrantied for 100k miles.... I don't think that's the case here...

I hear what you are saying Micah, and agree. It happens every day. Me and the guy that helps me build my engine have said numerous times we could make a killing just by delivering the customer service and integrity that seems to be failing in the automotive industry. If only we could figure out the best way to start...

Brian
 
I think he had every right to expect his motor to hold together let alone make the power claimed. We will never know all the details however. Hopefully whatever route he goes will work out for him this time around. Be nic eif it involved the 3.8 and a turbo!
 
What is Ralph thinkin on doing? Is he pondering makin it right and puttin it back together with everyones suggestions or just scrapping it?

As far as I know, nobody has had trouble with the stock EEC and only good luck on tuning with one. If it actually isn't a tuning aspect then there's something wrong with machine work or clamping force. I agree with the thought of excessive overdrive making the belts snap/shred.
 
I'm curious.

If the motor itself is flawed, then what is wrong with it and what is he doing to address that issue?

If the motor itself is NOT flawed, then what exactly is the issue and how is it going to be resolved?
 
My Coy Miller Stage 2R Engine Story

  • In August of 2003, I spun a bearing in my original 3.8L engine in my Super Coupe.

I contacted Coy Miller. Coy and I talked on the phone and I explained to him that I was Road Racing the car, and not drag racing the car. (For a little preliminary history, my car had a full roll cage, former Winston Cup t-bird front end, large Griffin Radiator, larger fuel pump, Brembo 4 piston calipers, etc. And I had been running the car on the track for almost 2 years.)

  • Took the engine to Coy in September ’03.
  • January’04. Received the engine back; had it re-installed in the car.
  • Plugged Coy’s PCM program into my PCM, put it on the dyno, and within a short period of time blew the head gaskets.
  • Heads went back to Coy; he returned them in May ‘04 rebuilt – no charge.
  • Head Gaskets blew again.
  • Whole car goes to Coy’s shop.
  • While Coy has the car, the Magnum Powers supercharger dies.
  • We contact Charles at Magnum Powers to get the supercharger rebuilt. (the supercharger barely has any time on it, other than dyno time, and probably less than 10 laps on the track.)
  • It was determined that my PCM was bad.
  • Coy recommended going to the Electromotive TEC3 for engine management {and it was installed}.
  • August ’04. Coy takes the car to HP Werks in Colonial Beach Va for tuning. Larry notices car isn’t getting enough fuel; we need bigger injectors, and a larger fuel pump. (Coy selected the injectors originally)
  • During the process of diagnosing fuel delivery on the dyno, the head gaskets blow Again.
  • We get a bigger fuel pump/injectors.
  • Larry makes a recommendation that I need to increase the size of the fuel return line back to the tank.
  • Car goes back to Coy’s.
  • October ’04. Coy takes car back to HP Werks. {on the} Dyno, belts keep snapping.
  • November ’04. Back to the dyno. Still having belt issues.
  • Magnum Powers supercharger dies again. (the car has barely any time on it)
  • Feb’05. Received the rebuilt supercharger from Magnum Powers.
  • Took it to the track. (still having belt issues: “I’d make 2-3 laps, and the belts would break”)
  • June ’05. Back to the track to try again. Still breaking belts.
  • After 3 attempts on the track, I cracked a head. (my {engine} temps were a tick high.)
  • Car goes back to Coy. (Coy has the car for 16 weeks) Coy completely tore down the engine and built it back up.
  • Took it back to the dyno in September ’05. Magnum Powers supercharger locks up again. (3rd one: car has seen very little more than dyno time.)
  • Magnum Powers refuses to warranty the part, or refund my money. (Quote:“I guess that supercharger isn’t going to work for your type of application.”)
  • Sept ’05. It’s been 2 years, I still don’t have a running engine, I’ve got a ton of money stashed in this engine.

  • January ’06. What does he do now?

(I summarized {edited} his post above so I could follow the sequence of events a little better.)

By the looks of things as they stand now,

  • The blown head gaskets look like they were the result of insufficient fuel delivery.
  • The engine and fuel system appear to be fully repaired now (albeit untested).
  • The belt issue has not been resolved (although it is not stated anywhere which belts keep breaking, I’ll assume it’s the SC belt. I’ll also assume for the sake of discussion the belt alignment has been looked at and dismissed).
  • The MP SC issue has not been resolved either. The possibility exists that these blowers cannot handle the stress of heavy loading for extended periods of time, which MP themselves eluded to in the last bullet of the quoted section above. (IMO Ralph, at the very least, should be entitled to some sort of compensation given the circumstances, either directly or through Coy’s shop).

I have to ask myself “What would I do in Ralph’s shoes at this point?” Tough question to answer, that’s for sure! Assuming the engine and everything else is OK, I’d probably look at a brand new S-port or an A/R. I would probably not pursue trying to get the current blower package to work, but that’s just me. I would also try to get the whole thing running reliably at WOT with low boost levels first.

Whatever the outcome, I want to wish Ralph the best of luck… I think he’s closer to his goals than he realizes!
 
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Paul, I got all that. My question takes the situation to another level.

We know it blew headgaskets. Why? I think it is a fair question to ask. If you don't know why then you can't assess blame. Once you determine exactly what failed, then you must determine what will be necessary to correct it.

My first question asks if Coy did something which proved innadequate in the motor. This is important information for others to know. If Coy is doing something wrong then others certainly should know about it. If Coy didn't do anything wrong with the motor, then the worst thing he is guilty of is suggesting that the package would work in a road racing application. Being that no one has ever attempted this before, I would think that any answer could be no better than an educated guess. So the question remains, was there a failure that could be traced to workmanship or choice of components in the motor?

If a component or assembly procedure did not cause the failure, then it follows that there are other issues that need to be addressed. My 2nd question asks if this has been determined and what is involved in the remedy. If it is not an engine component or design failure then it follows that a supporting system failed and engine damage resulted.

Without answers to the above questions this entire thread is nothing other than an unhappy customer's effort to discredit Coy and Charles. So far we know so little about the motor and application that any attempt to answer or even understand the problem is 100% futile.

Things we don't know:

What type of headgaskets were used nor the retention method.

What intercooler was being used nor what the air charge temperatures were.

What rpm the engine was being run at.

What coolant temperature the engine was run at.

What AFR the motor was running at.

What boost level was achieved nor at what rpm.

What OD ratio was being used.

Which model of MP supercharger was being used.

Without this data (which the customer most certainly has) we can say nothing about the entire thing other than "it broke." If Supercoupe enthusiasts got mad and tossed in the towel every time something "broke" many of the things we take for granted today for these cars wouldn't even exist.

This situation is an ideal circumstance for learning to take place and for us to move ahead in our understanding of what it takes for the 3.8L to succeed. If that was never Ralph's intention with this post then we are wasting our time and our breath. You can go to many forums and read about many customer rants about various vendors or manufacturers where people got upset about this or that and people jump all over the bandwagon spewing insults and threatening all kinds of boycotts etc, but here on this club we tend to look at things with a little more scrutiny. We don't normally take anyone's word at face value and everyone gets questioned. If you can't back up your statements you don't get much due here. That's just how it is.

My comments and questions in no way come from any loyalty to either Coy or Charles. But I do believe in the truth and the more facts we have the closer we can get to the truth. Right now we are very far from truth here (not because anyone is lying, but because we have virtually no facts).

So, my questions remain....
 
Dave's sayin the same thing I'm trying to get at. There is a reason for everything and in this certain situation there is a solution for it.

Ralph, help us help you.:)
 
I guess I'm a little bit confused as to the intent behind this thread.
The question was asked, "When is a Coy Miller Race Engine not actually a Race Engine?"

Is that a retorical question?

He left his phone number and says to call him. What does he want to hear? Does he want a diagnosis for the underlying cause of the failure? Does he want agreements that Coy or Charles are at fault? Does he want suggestions on how to proceed with the car?
I suppose that I am asking for a bit of clarification so that the helpful people posting hear can direct their attention to helping resolve these matters.

Tom
 
It seems to me that the supercharger may be part of the problem as well as the setup of the vehicle.

IMO, if there was a problem with the engine then there would be bigger problems then the head gaskets.

I think he needs to look at other means of forced air (i.e. autorotor, turbo, ect.) Maybe the Eaton isn't up to the task of running that hard that long. As far as the belt breaking, again, look at the S/C. Will the bearings that are installed in it able to withstand the stress and temps that are produced? Its no different than anything else with the car, if your gonna run it a certain way, you gotta build it for that.

But then again, all I really do know is if I was in the same situation I would be trying to work with the people that are building these parts to see if there is any other way to build these parts.

But this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
 
The reason I 'distilled' his post down was because it was very long and I couldn't easily follow the actual timeline of relevent events. And you're absolutely right Dave:

XR7 Dave said:
Right now we are very far from truth here (not because anyone is lying, but because we have virtually no facts).
All we can go on is what little information we do have, and draw conclusions from that. It would be nice if Ralph would come back and fill in the missing pieces here.

With regard to the headgasket problem, I see no evidence this fault still exists:
Ralph said:
  • Car goes back to Coy. (Coy has the car for 16 weeks) Coy completely tore down the engine and built it back up.
Since the time Coy rebuilt the engine here I don't see Ralph complaining about this issue anymore:
Ralph said:
  • Took it back to the dyno in September ’05. Magnum Powers supercharger locks up again. (3rd one: car has seen very little more than dyno time.)
Of course he hasn't actually run the newly-rebuilt motor yet, but from what I can see Coy has already addressed the engine problems; All that's left is the S/C. Wether or not Coy should be directly involved with assisting him in the S/C troubles or not depends on the original agreement between himself and Coy.

I'm on Ralph's side a little bit: I too would assume a little "plug-n-play" here considering he paid for a complete package (finished package, not buying pieces here and there and assembling it yourself kind-of-thing). He kept taking it back and still didn't get any clear answers on why these problems were happening, or what he should do to rectify them.

Hock said:
Maybe the Eaton isn't up to the task of running that hard that long. As far as the belt breaking, again, look at the S/C. Will the bearings that are installed in it able to withstand the stress and temps that are produced? Its no different than anything else with the car, if your gonna run it a certain way, you gotta build it for that.
Agreed... however there are people who run road courses with Eatons and don't suffer this type of failure, so I think you need to further define which "type" of Eaton doesn't work. Additionally, we need to know specifically what the failure mode(s) were, and we don't have that information.

XR7 Dave said:
My 2nd question asks if this has been determined and what is involved in the remedy. If it is not an engine component or design failure then it follows that a supporting system failed and engine damage resulted.
I don't think he knows Dave... at least that's the jist of what I got from reading his post. I also believe he's very frustrated at this point and some of what he posted reflects that (and IMHO quite understandable).

Let's hope he comes back to fill in the missing pieces you and others have requested.
 
I think he was trying to say that if you can't race an engine, then it isn't a race engine = thus false advertising. But it's not so black and white. If I run my race engine hot, blow it up and it sits broken....it's still a race engine, just a broken one. Furthermore, it's not false advertising if I damaged it.

If we had more info we could tell where things went wrong and why. I'm willing to bet at least some of the damage could have been prevented if the operater recognized some advance warning signs. Like if the motor is running a "tick" hot I probably would not have continued to race with it. Rather I would have ended my day and investigated why it's running hot (cooling system malfunciton, undersized cooling system, lack of airflow?)

Personally, I've been on the dyno before when my car started to go very lean and in those cases the pulls were aborted until the afr looked a little nicer. Had we just wrung it out I too might have popped something.

Micah
 
Hock said:
It seems to me that the supercharger may be part of the problem as well as the setup of the vehicle.

IMO, if there was a problem with the engine then there would be bigger problems then the head gaskets.

I think he needs to look at other means of forced air (i.e. autorotor, turbo, ect.) Maybe the Eaton isn't up to the task of running that hard that long. As far as the belt breaking, again, look at the S/C. Will the bearings that are installed in it able to withstand the stress and temps that are produced? Its no different than anything else with the car, if your gonna run it a certain way, you gotta build it for that.

I have no tech to back this up, just my personal observations. When I run my fairly stock engined SC on road courses, if I have anything other than a stock pulley on the blower, the intake air and the engine heat up very quickly. I can't imagine what kind of heat would be generated with a huge OD on the blower.

FWIW, when Roush Industries prepped some Super Coupes for the Bondurant Race School in Phoenix many years back, one of the mods was to rip out the SC engine, and replace it with a normally aspirated 5.0 HO.


cheers
Ed N.
 
FWIW, when Roush Industries prepped some Super Coupes for the Bondurant Race School in Phoenix many years back, one of the mods was to rip out the SC engine, and replace it with a normally aspirated 5.0 HO.

THATS SAYS IT ALL! haha
 
fast Ed said:
FWIW, when Roush Industries prepped some Super Coupes for the Bondurant Race School in Phoenix many years back, one of the mods was to rip out the SC engine, and replace it with a normally aspirated 5.0 HO.
Then the SC became slower.:)

Now ALL is said.
 
here's my ???

Why have both of the venders in this mess not added their side to this story???:confused: Is there some reason for their lack of input??:confused: Have both of them been added to this thread? :confused: if not, why not??? :confused: :confused: Lets hear from them as to why this is still going on for this long of a time................Rich
 
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