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Thread: Turbo Talk

  1. #1
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    Turbo Talk

    I figured we could start a turbo thread here where we can all just spill out our thoughts without hijacking threads. Lets see how this works:O)
    They don't call me "SLOWPOKE" for nothin!
    http://www.sccoa.com/forums/garage_v...vehicle&id=110
    Quote Originally Posted by ricardoa1 View Post
    I love the filter. Its pimp. paper element and 10Mircron filtration, 12" long cause size matters.

  2. #2
    xThunderbirdSCx Guest
    if this kid doing his turbo setup pulls through and makes some good numbers, i know where ill be headed (to a turbo)

  3. #3
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    If you want to go drag racing then stick with the positive displacement blower. If you want to go road racing then go turbo or centrifugal.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMac89
    If you want to go drag racing then stick with the positive displacement blower. If you want to go road racing then go turbo or centrifugal.
    Tell that to the Grand National crowd.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parker Dean
    Tell that to the Grand National crowd.
    Doesn't mean you can't make turbo cars fast, but how do you know that a positive displacement blower of the same CFM capabilities won't be better.

    I know what's better because I see these cars in comparison EVERY weekend.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by xThunderbirdSCx
    if this kid doing his turbo setup pulls through and makes some good numbers, i know where ill be headed (to a turbo)

    You guys crack me up. To begin a successful turbo application you must first master some basic engine building theory and tuning procedures not to mention some fairly in depth installation and fabrication abilities. No offence to anyone here but most of you really have no idea what you are talking about.

    You want to run a turbo? Then get yourself some engine tuning software/hardware and a WB02 meter and start tuning. When you have a good handle on how to manipulate your EEC with the M90 on it then you are ready to start talking about upgrading to a turbo. Ask anyone who has run a turbo on their SC how they did with tuning it. Oh ya, no one has done it yet.

    Sure you can take the car and get it tuned somewhere but unless you want to pay $450 every so often to compensate for a little change here or there, having someone tune the car for you is NOT a practical solution. Look at any of the successful turbo cars and find out how they handle tuning.

    1) They pay someone a lot of money to get it right.

    2) They learn how to do it themselves.

    The problem with a turbo application is that your results, the turbo, the motor, and the tune are all interconnected and you can't seperate them. There is a whole learning curve that will need to come with the application of turbo's to the SC which has yet to be explored.

    And don't tell me that is what I'm here for. I dont' mind helping anyone who wants help but I'm not about to take responsibility for the success or failure of anyone's turbo project. I'm not trying to get off track here but I have noticed a real trend with SC owners that they want to bolt things on and go fast but extremely few have taken on the responsibility to learn how to tune their own cars. This is something that I feel really needs to happen if anyone is serious about performance.

    I learned this the hard with with the AR kits. These were basically bolt on kits with all the same basic characteristics of the M90. They are really easy to tune. However, because the blower by virtue of it's boost capability requires bigger injectors and less ignition timing than a typical M90, I included a chip with each kit to accomplish these necessary changes. I thought I was providing a service. Boy was I wrong. As soon as I provided a chip with those changes, suddenly I was responsible for any and all reasons why the car didn't run. When the end user doesn't understand or have the ability to manipulate the program then there is a never-ending cycle of "it won't run" and "something's wrong". Been there done that and not going that direction any more! The only AR's that performed to expectations are ones that I tuned hands on. Think about that for a moment. I think you'll find the same thing with a turbo only possibly to a higher degree. If you can't tune it then don't even think about it (well, unless you plan to send the car to someone and have it delivered back to you turn-key). Notice the $7K price tag on Ralph's Vortec kit before you think you want to go that route.

    Ask Chris Lazzo or David Neibert how much fun their turbo kits have been so far. They paid similar price tags for their kits. I'm not negative about turbo's, but I think I'm being realistic when I say that only someone who has the fabrication capabilities and tuning knowledge/hardware to put the whole thing together should even consider it.

    A kit is hardly a decent option either. If someone goes through the effort to put together a kit that you install at home, who is going to get it running for you? 8 out of 10 says it won't run right out of the box. So how is company "A" going to market a kit when they can't guarantee that it is going to even run? I would have thought that it wouldn't be that hard, but so far my simple bolt on AR kit is running a pretty low % rate of delivered to running well ratio. Think about that. I can see it now. $5k turbo kit with a 10% running ratio. Boy that would be some bad press to overcome!
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  7. #7
    xThunderbirdSCx Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by XR7 Dave
    You guys crack me up. To begin a successful turbo application you must first master some basic engine building theory and tuning procedures not to mention some fairly in depth installation and fabrication abilities. No offence to anyone here but most of you really have no idea what you are talking about.

    You want to run a turbo? Then get yourself some engine tuning software/hardware and a WB02 meter and start tuning. When you have a good handle on how to manipulate your EEC with the M90 on it then you are ready to start talking about upgrading to a turbo. Ask anyone who has run a turbo on their SC how they did with tuning it. Oh ya, no one has done it yet.

    Sure you can take the car and get it tuned somewhere but unless you want to pay $450 every so often to compensate for a little change here or there, having someone tune the car for you is NOT a practical solution. Look at any of the successful turbo cars and find out how they handle tuning.

    1) They pay someone a lot of money to get it right.

    2) They learn how to do it themselves.

    The problem with a turbo application is that your results, the turbo, the motor, and the tune are all interconnected and you can't seperate them. There is a whole learning curve that will need to come with the application of turbo's to the SC which has yet to be explored.

    And don't tell me that is what I'm here for. I dont' mind helping anyone who wants help but I'm not about to take responsibility for the success or failure of anyone's turbo project. I'm not trying to get off track here but I have noticed a real trend with SC owners that they want to bolt things on and go fast but extremely few have taken on the responsibility to learn how to tune their own cars. This is something that I feel really needs to happen if anyone is serious about performance.

    I learned this the hard with with the AR kits. These were basically bolt on kits with all the same basic characteristics of the M90. They are really easy to tune. However, because the blower by virtue of it's boost capability requires bigger injectors and less ignition timing than a typical M90, I included a chip with each kit to accomplish these necessary changes. I thought I was providing a service. Boy was I wrong. As soon as I provided a chip with those changes, suddenly I was responsible for any and all reasons why the car didn't run. When the end user doesn't understand or have the ability to manipulate the program then there is a never-ending cycle of "it won't run" and "something's wrong". Been there done that and not going that direction any more! The only AR's that performed to expectations are ones that I tuned hands on. Think about that for a moment. I think you'll find the same thing with a turbo only possibly to a higher degree. If you can't tune it then don't even think about it (well, unless you plan to send the car to someone and have it delivered back to you turn-key). Notice the $7K price tag on Ralph's Vortec kit before you think you want to go that route.

    Ask Chris Lazzo or David Neibert how much fun their turbo kits have been so far. They paid similar price tags for their kits. I'm not negative about turbo's, but I think I'm being realistic when I say that only someone who has the fabrication capabilities and tuning knowledge/hardware to put the whole thing together should even consider it.

    A kit is hardly a decent option either. If someone goes through the effort to put together a kit that you install at home, who is going to get it running for you? 8 out of 10 says it won't run right out of the box. So how is company "A" going to market a kit when they can't guarantee that it is going to even run? I would have thought that it wouldn't be that hard, but so far my simple bolt on AR kit is running a pretty low % rate of delivered to running well ratio. Think about that. I can see it now. $5k turbo kit with a 10% running ratio. Boy that would be some bad press to overcome!

    i just got

  8. #8
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    Ask Chris Lazzo or David Neibert how much fun their turbo kits have been so far.
    It hasn't been much fun up to this point, but I knew this was going to be a difficult project and I remain hopeful that it will be very fun in the not too distant future.

    Had I gone with a milder combo (450-500 rwhp max) or just built a race car, it would have been a lot easier. But that wouldn't really be anything special, so I'll just keep going after my original goal.

    David
    1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
    2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat...............707HP/650TQ

    My Garage

  9. #9
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    I didn't post that to be negative about anyone's turbo plans or projects. I just want people to understand that a turbo is not the beginner's route to HP nirvana.

    The turbo project that is ongoing now has some of those bases covered. The person doing the install has good knowledge of the car, has good fabrication abilities, a way of tuning the EEC, he has done his homework, and has another car to drive.

    What I think we should be talking about in this thread is what turbo would be a good one to start out with, one that uses a flange and physical orientation that can be used in upgraded form. In other words, what would be a good turbo to start out with that might work well with a more or less stock motor but be able to be "bolt-in" replaced with something capable of 600rhwp. What would be the best turbo to use that offers that kind of range of output and would match the airflow that the 3.8 is going to generate?

    I for one wouldn't want to build a whole piping system and then find out that it won't work with the turbo I need to upgrade to and have to remake half my stuff. Or am I overcomplicating things?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  10. #10
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    Okay...lets see here...
    Step 1) Get a turbo
    Step 2) Get piping
    Step 3) Oil line and return w/pump
    Step 4) Get wide band O2
    Step 5) Get a good carb
    Step 6) Tune carb

    Chris

  11. #11
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    You are funny Chris. We are talking V6 here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

  12. #12
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    I seriously have no idea why Chris or Dave are having problems with thier turbo projects. I have an old school bank frire DFI setup and my setup ran without a hiccup. 306 with a t76..No MAF of course. I will be upgrading soon to a newer FAST system however.

    As far as running posative displacement vrs turbo..I was sold on turbos when I saw REAL small block ford engines running 2,000 rwhp. You guys should really check out the NMRA.
    They don't call me "SLOWPOKE" for nothin!
    http://www.sccoa.com/forums/garage_v...vehicle&id=110
    Quote Originally Posted by ricardoa1 View Post
    I love the filter. Its pimp. paper element and 10Mircron filtration, 12" long cause size matters.

  13. #13
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    Damon,

    I think the MAF is causing most of my tuning problems. Data logging shows real spikey readings at part throttle indicating turbulance. Not sure why because it's located on a section of intake pipe with several feet of straight pipe before the MAF. Might be because of the large size, I had to go with an 85mm C&L tuner MAF to keep from pegging it at max air flow.

    David
    1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
    2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat...............707HP/650TQ

    My Garage

  14. #14
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    I have actually heard of that on blow through designs. It was about 9 years ago and I could only imagine what they were talking about then. Damon does have a point though. The Speed Density systems will be a tad quicker on the crispness of the throttle with a calibrated inlet setup. The MAF will never give a bad reading nor will it cause a restriction.

    David. This may sound stupid to you, but If you think you are getting turbulance in the MAF, Try sticking a tornado (I know but hear me out) in line. The tornado is just an example of course. I would try some kind of diffuser if I could not get a consistant reading though. I know you have a lot of room before the maf, but if it has a sharp turn right after it, and the tubing is sooo big, it could be causing the air to bypass the wires at lower speeds and when you get to part throttle, it could be just getting half of a reading. Have you tried turning it in the pipe to move the sensor?

    Chris

  15. #15
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    I'm not participating in this to go on and on about turbo vs. supercharger. There are many rules in the NMRA that favor turbo's but that really isn't what this is about. If people want to adapt a turbo to fit onto an SC it needs to be something that is workable with the existing SC EMS and physical layout of the car. I'm interested in things like what aplvalydrtybird is doing. He is working on a semi bolt in replacement for the supercharger and looking for some results with a turbo sized for similar boost levels as your typical street SC.

    I would like to see some people post what turbo's would work best and tell why they would chose a certain unit. I'd like to know what flanges to use and why etc. If people really want to build turbo applications for this car we should really get down to basics and put out some useful information.

    We should be discussing what turbo to use and where to put it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Ya thats why i tape mine down. People think its bc i dont have a moonroof seal (which is true) but its really to keep my roof from ripping off .
    Email me here.

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