Once again Car and Driver prove once again that they are elitist snobs.

XR7 Dave said:
And once again the "gotta have it" factor won the day anyhow. The 7 point spread between the Ferrari and the Vette was taken up entirely in this catagory. C&D did the same thing a couple years ago with the C5 vs. 911 and they did it again in the Mustang vs. GTO test. It is clear that all the testing in the world doesn't really mean much because in the end the 1-2-3 ranking is dependent almost entirely on the subjective perceptions of the testers.

That's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading your first post.
Mike
 
I subscribe to Motor Trend. Dropped C&D a few years ago. Don't really care for their tv show either. Hmmmm, media and politics....imagine that.
 
Do us all a favor and stop the whole "Brand loyal to american cars" bs.

Next your going to tell me about how much better the Ford GT is compared to the Enzo.

Listen.....Its more about the class of car.

The Ford GT was built to hang with the top over seas dogs. In all aspects and not just in RAW numbers.

I am very loyal to American brands to a Point. There are European cars that Americans manufacturers just have no interest in competing with. Ford actually made the jump and I consider the GT just as high end an Exotic as the rest of them. Bravo to them. And if you dont think the Ford GT is an Exotic....Take a good look at it. The Vette or The Viper certainly are not in the same class. Could GM or Chrysler build a car to compete...Heck Yah..They just havent.

Like I said. I can make a Mustang whip the crud out of Vette or a Viper or even a Ford GT or any of the European Exotics.....But at what cost? (And I am not talking $$) It will never be a GT..It will never be a viper...It will never even be a vette.

Thats the point
 
XR7 Dave said:
It would be nice if the magazine would hire a real race car driver to test the cars, then offer a professional opinion giving that equal weight along side their editors choice.

See Top Gear, and every car that's brought in is tested by their professional race driver, called 'the stig', and the lap times are run on the same course in as close to identical conditions as possible (since it is not always possible to wait for it to quit raining before doing a lap).


Here is a short list of the power lap times.
car time driver episode (ep/season)
Aston Martin DBR9 1.08.6 White 6x6
Maserati MC12 1.18.9 white 6x2
Ferrari Enzo 1.19.0 White 5x2
Ariel Atom 1.19.5 White 5x9
Radical SR3 1.19.8 Black 1x9
Carrera GT 1.19.8 White 4x4
McMerc 1.20.9 White 4x2
Ford GT 1.21.9 White 4x8
Ferrari 360 CS 1.22.3 White 4x3
GT3 RS 1.22.3 White 4x3
Westfield XTR2 1.22.6 Black 1x3
Ferrari F430 1.22.9 White 6x8
Ferrari F430 spyder 1.23.2 white 6x8
Murcielago 1.23.7 White 3x4
Zonda 1.23.8 Black
Kooennoennioeggoennnisssoeuggooueeng 1.23.9 Black 2x7
Ariel R400 1.24.0 Black
TVR Sagaris 1.24.6 White 6x7
TVR Tuscan 2 1.24.8 White 5x3
EVO FQ 400 1.24.8 White 5x7
Noble 3.0 1.25 Black
Caterham R400 1.25.0 Black
Lambo Gallardo 1.25.8 W White 3x4
Morgan Aero 8 GTN 1.25.9 White 5x5
EVO VIII MR FQ 320 1.26 White 4x4
BMW M5 1.26.2 White 6x9
Lotus Exige 1.26.4 White 4x1
Ferrari 575 (GTC Handling pack) 1.26.8 White 5x4
Corvette 1.26.8 White 4x10
Merc CLS 55 AMG 1.26.9 White 6x1
Vanquish S 1.27.1 White 5x4
911 GT3 1.27.2 W White 3x1
Spyker C8 1.27.3 White 4x7
TVR 350C 1.27.5 Black
Wiesman 1.27.9 White 6x3
M3 CSL 1.28 W White 3x2
MTM Bimoto 1.28 Black 1x10
Lotus Elise Sport 190 1.28.2 Black
Dodge SRT10 (VIPER) 1.28.5 W White 5x3
MG SV 1.28.6 White 3x7
New Boxter 1.28.7 white 5x7
Porsche 911S (997) 1.28.9 W White 5x1
Mitsubishi EVO VIII 1.28.9 Black
BMW 645Ci 1.28.? White 4x5
Murcielago 1.29.0 W Black
Merc CL65 1.29.0 White 4x9
Alpina Z8 1.29 Black 2x3
ASONE 1.29 Black 1x10
Impreza Sti WRX WR-1 1.29.4 White 4x4
Alfa 3.7 GTA 1.30 White
Impreza STi 1.30.1 Black
Aston DB7GT 1.30.4 Black 2x4
Audi S4 1.30.9 Black
911 Turbo 1.31.0 W Black
Vauxhall VX Turbo 1.31.3 Black
NSX Type R 1.31.6 W White 3x9
BMW 535d 1.31.8 White 6x10
Mazda RX8 1.31.8 White 3x5
BMW M3 1.31.8 Black
Nissan 350Z 1.31.8 White
Focus RS 1.32.2 Black
Esprit V8 1.32.5 Black
TT V6 1.32.7 White 3x8
Honda Civic Type R 1.32.8 White 5x9
Jaguar E-Type 1.32.8 White 6x5
New SLK 1.32.9 White 5x7
Seat Leon Cupra 1.32.9 White 5x6
Vauxhall Astra VXR 1.33.0 White 6x9
Noble 1.33.1 W Black
SL AMG 55 1.33.2 W Black 1x6
Golf R32 1.33.3 Black
Cadillac CTS-V 1.33.4 W White 6x4
VW Golf GTi 1.33.7 White 5x6
Clio Cup 1.33.8 White 4x6
Focus RS 1.33.8 Black 1x2
Loser (Holden) 1.33.9 W White 3x6
Renault Megane 225 1.34.0 White 5x6
Mini S Works 1.34.2 White 5x6
MG ZT 260 1.35.0 White 4x5
S60R 1.35 Black 2x9
Ferrari 575 1.35.2 W Black 1x4
Alfa 147GTA 1.35.6 Black
Lotus Elise 111S 1.35.6 W Black
Citroen C4 VTS 1.35.8 White 5x6
Aston Vanq 1.36.2 W Black 1x4
Clio V6 1.36.2 W Black
Civic Type R 1.36.5 Black
Saab 9-5 HOT AERO 1.37.9 White 3x3
Honda Civic Type-R 1.38.06 Black 1x2
Mazzer 1.38.6 W Black
Subaru Impreza WRX 1.39 Black 1x2
Bowler 1.39.4 Black 2x1
Bentley Arnage 1.40.8 Black 1x5
James May's used Porsche 944 1.43 White 5x6
Hamster's used Porsche 924 1.44 White 5x6
Overfinch 1.44.0 Black 2x10
JC's used & abused Porsche 928 1.45 White 5x6
Aston Martin DB5 1.46.0 White 6x5

As you can see, the Vette's gotten pretty far up there, it was higher up a while ago, but more cars have been tested since.

As a second bit, Ford has dropped the ball with the GT, just look at how frequently their owners have to take them to the dealer, and the positively abysmal gas mileage.
That said, however,
it still looks fricken cool.
 
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The_Ghost said:
Build quality?!
You talk about Ferrari build quality?

Have you ever seen the paint or interior of an F40?


The F40 was produced from 87-92. You really want to compare it to today's interior's? :rolleyes:
 
Blk89TBSC said:
The F40 was produced from 87-92. You really want to compare it to today's interior's? :rolleyes:

The thunderbird was produced from 89-97, and it has a much better put together interior. A gutted 240Z has a better interior than the F40.
Hell, the Pontiac Fiero GT has a better interior than the F40.
Would you want to spend $150k+ on a car that looks like it's been put together with gorilla glue??

Toms-SC said:
Hi, may I join this bench racing please?
YES YOU CAN! :)
 
i remember watching a show in mtv , where they commented celebrities almost always had their brand new ferraris and lambos "detailed" which really ment spending another 10-15k in fit and finish and sometimes repainting.
 
I totally agree about how well the driver can actually drive..Just look at 1/4 times published by various C&D type magazines for the new gt500....Then look at what MM&FF produced. That goes without saying.

One thing to be said. A car that is hard to handle but handles well will get better numbers from an experienced driver then an inexperienced driver.

This would mean that if indeed a Vette a Viper or Lets say a GT500 was less refined then that an exotic the increase in numbers would be greater with a profesional driver.
 
The_Ghost said:
The thunderbird was produced from 89-97, and it has a much better put together interior. A gutted 240Z has a better interior than the F40.
Hell, the Pontiac Fiero GT has a better interior than the F40.
Would you want to spend $150k+ on a car that looks like it's been put together with gorilla glue??


:D

It was a racecar for god's sake.
 
I hear ya, I wasn't so much saying anything about the Vette compared to a Ferrari as I find it disturbing that the magazine people are eager to make the comparison, and equally as quick to dismiss the car as "not in the same league".

It's like they took great delight in showing how the Vette is superior to the GT500 and then turn around and show us how superior the Ferrari is to the Vette. It's a general condescending attitude that is very prevailant in their articles.

Anyway, coming from anyone whom I have ever heard having driven or ridden in a Z06 or even a C6 period, the car is amazing by our standards. Remember, most of us here drive MN12's and we think THEY are cool. :cool:
 
I have seen both the new z06 interior, and the last years ferrari interior 360 modenaand build quality up close.
Winner for seats and controls Ferrari the leather is beautiful controls nice and crisp F1 tranny flawless.

Body fitting paint and overall maintenance vette hands down.
The ferrari will likely never see over 50K on it's odometer without major rebuilds and replacements, the new z06 is already over 10k and the owner said it feels stronger now second set of tires already:D
I would buy th evette and have no problems running across the US. with the ferrari I would be sure never to be too far from a dealership when they break they break big
 
Ferrari's used to impress the heck out of me, until the shop I ran started working on them. Over priced to buy, over priced to maintain(like you would not believe) and they break with regularity, no American car owner would put up with.

For the better part of the last 53 years, Corvette has been the bang for the buck leader. Especially if you do what I did, buy a 20,000 mile 18 month old Corvette! Like new for thousands less.

God Bless America!
 
Dave, I think you should write a letter. You know, explaning how you have never driven any of the cars tested, and never plan on actually purchasing any of them, but you think you know better then them. I'm sure it will go over well. :D
 
mikeceli said:
Ferrari's used to impress the heck out of me, until the shop I ran started working on them. Over priced to buy, over priced to maintain(like you would not believe) and they break with regularity, no American car owner would put up with.

For the better part of the last 53 years, Corvette has been the bang for the buck leader. Especially if you do what I did, buy a 20,000 mile 18 month old Corvette! Like new for thousands less.

God Bless America!


I've seen a brand new 06 in the paper for 41K. Sticker was 50K
 
Ive driven quite a few cars back in 2000-2001 for customers. I loved the Corvette, auto was boring - Id almost rather drive my Tbird, but the manual Vette felt like a real performance car, it was awesome.
Drove a couple Ferraris .. the new one at that time had the Turbo V6 .. and the other one was a Testarossa, bought used for $80k - that was a great car and sounded very good.

Im not sure much has changed from then until now, they can only be better. My overall impression was that the Corvette was a great car all around, and I would love to buy one. The Ferrari was nice, but mostly for show. Interior was so plain and simple, it didnt feel like anything more than a race car.

As for working on them, Ive done quite a bit of work on earlier LT1 and LS1 Vettes and they are very easy. Never touched a Ferrari, but my buddy's machine shop has dealt with quite a few and they are more complicated than your everyday engine.

And as far as Car and Driver goes .. I wouldnt buy a car based on what they have to say. If you have money to spend, it really doesnt matter what you buy and you wouldnt care about maintenance or any other costs.

- Dan
 
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442guy said:
I would buy th evette and have no problems running across the US. with the ferrari I would be sure never to be too far from a dealership when they break they break big

For reliability, I bought the Corolla... with a vette I'd still be worried and would like to know where the dealerships are for a cross country tour.

;)

Frit
 
CarlisleLandOwn said:
Dave, I think you should write a letter. You know, explaning how you have never driven any of the cars tested, and never plan on actually purchasing any of them, but you think you know better then them. I'm sure it will go over well. :D

Actually, if you ever really READ some of the letters to Car and Driver, you would realize that those are the exact kind of letters they do print, if you can write them in witty enough prose. Sorry I'm not that good with words. Perhaps you should give it a try? :D
 
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