View Poll Results: Is Ford giving too much attention to the Mustang and not enough to its other cars?

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  • Too much to attention Mustang not enough for other cars

    59 58.42%
  • Adequate amount of attention to both

    33 32.67%
  • Not enough attention to Mustang too much towards other cars

    9 8.91%
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Thread: Is Ford showing too much bias

  1. #1
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    Is Ford showing too much bias

    I am doing a research paper for collage and I am trying to get some oppinions. I am curious who all thinks that Ford is showing too much favortism towards the Mustang and ignoring its other lines too much?

  2. #2
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    I would have to say Ford has always been a bare bones peopel car...Car for the masses.The Stang is there young car and everything else fits a specific purpuse...So froma performance standpoint it may seem they are...But they arnt..Just my opinion however
    They don't call me "SLOWPOKE" for nothin!
    http://www.sccoa.com/forums/garage_v...vehicle&id=110
    Quote Originally Posted by ricardoa1 View Post
    I love the filter. Its pimp. paper element and 10Mircron filtration, 12" long cause size matters.

  3. #3
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    There is still a good market for sportscars, and I think GM & Chrysler are doing a much better job of giving that demographic buying options.

    Having said that, I think they did a fantastic job on the new Mustang.

    I just wish they would bring back the Thunderbird or Torino name, and have another sports or muscle car in the stable.

  4. #4
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    Yah it be nice if they offered a performance option in all different shapes and sizes..I agree
    They don't call me "SLOWPOKE" for nothin!
    http://www.sccoa.com/forums/garage_v...vehicle&id=110
    Quote Originally Posted by ricardoa1 View Post
    I love the filter. Its pimp. paper element and 10Mircron filtration, 12" long cause size matters.

  5. #5
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    Too much bias toward the Mustang? What else does Ford have right now? Nothing I would consider buying besides the Mustang......

  6. #6
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    Ford's american lineup SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The Freestar is a horrible piece of crap, the Five Hundred is about as exciting as a loaf of day-old bread, the Fusion looks like butt from the front, and looks too much like a Subaru Legacy Sedan from the back, the Focus looks like ~~~ in the US, I want to escape the escape, the explorer is as innovative as xeroxing the old one and just adding a new grille, same goes for the expedition and excursion, the ranger is a worthless, unreliable piece of garbage, and the F-150 isn't half as attractive as it could be. The new Nissan and Honda offerings are worrysome.

    Lincoln's design dept has gone plumb loco with weirdness, but at least they're trying to be some-what edgy.

    Now, look at Ford's overseas offerings. For example, the Ford C-max and S-max vehicles. Just as practical as a Freestar, serves the same duty, but much better designed, and a hell of a lot more attractive. For a full-size sedan, we ought to be offering the Australian Ford Falcon as a regular sedan offering with at least half of the engine choices available, the european Mondeo is much better looking and better designed than the stupid Fusion (if only if it were as attractive as its Mazda counterpart), and Ford should be selling us the updated, European Focus platform rather than the uglified new focus, and should consider introducing such gas-friendly but good looking, practical vehicles as the current european Fiesta and Ka. Furthermore, the Ford Transit van should at least be sold here as an alternative to the econoline. Given that Daimler Benz is going to be selling the Smart brand here, and given how well Toyota is doing with its Prius, Yaris and Camry Hybrid models, and how well Honda is doing with the Civic Hybrid, Fit and Accord Hybrid, there is no reason Ford can't introduce a vehicle that can compete with the Japanese competition, given their reputation for quality and good fuel economy that Ford has lost out on as of late.

    Here's my dream model lineup.

    Coupe: MODERN Thunderbird offering, made attractive and affordable as the MN-12 was. Seating for 4. RWD, 4.6L engine standard 350hp, twin turbo 3.0L V6 400hp option, 5.4 SC option 500hp. 3 trim levels.
    Competes with: Corvette, BMW 6-series, BMW Z-series, Porsche Panorama, Porsche Boxster, Infiniti G35 Coupe, Nissan GT-R, Monte Carlo.

    Sporty Car: RWD Mustang, could use the introduction of an independent rear suspension, at a minimum. Choice of a 4.0L V6, 350hp V8, SC 600hp V8, or 400hp Twin turbo 3.0L V6 (Lincoln MKR sourced) would be fantastic.
    Competes with: Eclipse, Camaro, Corvette, Firebird, Civic Si

    Alternate Sporty Car: Ford Iosis
    beautiful, environmentally friendly 4-dr sporty car. RWD, with good engine choices and hybrid option. Not as powerful as Mustang, but still would sell in amazing numbers on style alone.

    Mini-car: Sportka SE with FWD 1.3L SOHC duratec 93hp or 1.6L SOHC 120hp duratec. Currently sold in UK and AU.
    Competes with: Mini Cooper, Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, Suzuki SX4.

    Compact: EUROPEAN FOCUS, FWD with 1.8L duratec 154hp, 2.0L duratec 194, 2.5L Duratec ST 300hp, diesel options 1.8L Duratorq Diesel, 2.0L Duratorq Diesel.
    Competes with Civic, Jetta, Corolla, Audi A3, Subaru Impreza
    Sold in UK and AU.

    Midsize Sedan: Mondeo FWD with AWD option, 2.5L Duratec V6 (227hp) , 2.0L Duratec I4 (194hp), 3.0L ST Duratec V6 (303hp), diesel options 2.0 Duratorq TDCi Diesel 174hp, 230 ft/lb tq, 2.2 Duratorq TDCi Diesel 207hp, 294lb/ft tq.
    Competes with: Accord, Camry, Passat, Sonata
    Sold in UK.

    Full-Size Sedan: Falcon / Fairlane LTD RWD/AWD
    Barra 245T engine, 300hp, 353tq, Barra 230* V8 engine 310hp 370tq, The Barra 190 I6 E85 255hp, 280tq. Hybrid Option (not yet developed) (Sold in Australia w/all engine options listed)
    RWD. Ford, Do NOT build that awful looking, 300C rip-off interceptor concept.
    Competes with: 300C, Magnum, Intrepid, Impala, G6, Grand Prix

    Wagon-Van: Ford S-Max. FWD 2.5 Duratec I-5 295hp 238TQ, 2.0L Duratec 194hp I4, 2.0 Duratorq TDCi Euro IV Diesel 191hp 250tq
    Competes with: Mazda5, Mercedes B-class, Chevy HHR, PT Cruiser, Uplander, Relay.
    Sold in UK, AU

    Minivan: Ford GALAXY. FWD 2.0L Duratec 194hp I4, 2.0 Duratorq TDCi Euro IV Diesel 191hp 250tq
    Competes with: Toyota Sienna, Kia Sedona, Chrysler Town&Country, Dodge Caravan, Nissan Quest, Honda Oddysey.

    Small SUV: European Ford Fusion (NOT AT ALL like US ford Fusion) 5-dr, possibly Ford Edge. FWD or AWD with 1.8L duratec 154hp, 2.0L duratec 194, 2.5L Duratec ST 300hp, diesel options 1.8L Duratorq Diesel, 2.0L Duratorq Diesel

    Normal SUV: Ford Territory Barra 245T engine, 300hp, 353tq, Barra 230 5.4L V8 engine 310hp 370tq, The Barra 190 4.0L I6 E85 255hp, 280tq
    RWD base, optional AWD.
    Currently Sold in: AU
    Competes with: Chevy Suburban, Tahoe, Escalade ESV, Lexus RX-series, X5, Audi Q7.

    Large SUV: Do we really still need an Excursion?
    Thorough redesign with diesel, hybrid and gas options. AWD with fully independent off-road suspension and high towing capacity.
    Competes with: Yukon Denali, Aspen, Escalade

    Commercial Van: Ford Transit RWD
    2.4 Duratorq 190hp 350lb/ft tq, 2.3L Duratec 195hp I-4
    6-spd Auto / CVT / 6-Spd Manual, 4.10 gears
    Competes with: Dodge Sprinter, Chevy Express, GMC Savanna
    Retain F-series based Econoline vans for 250-series and up high-load and towing applications

    Small Pickup: Bullet-proof the ranger. Re-engineer the whole damn thing. Its reliability must be as good as the Toyota Hilux/Tacoma. It needs to be running 20 years from now with 200,000 miles on the original engine with nothing major failing.

    Full-Size Pickup: Civilize the F-150 and at least bring it up to par with the new Honda, Toyota and Nissan competition. The F-150 does well as it is, but power, reliability, and quality need to be stepped up, and it wouldn't hurt to make it better looking, either.

    Exotic: Ford GT.
    Needs MORE POWER, better fuel economy, more civilized driving manners and most importantly, VASTLY IMPROVED RELIABILITY, ie being able to complete a round trip to somewhere without something breaking.
    Competes with: Ferrari F430, Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche Carrera, McLaren Mercedes SLR, Porsche Carrera GT, Honda NSX, Nissan GT-R, Lexus LF-A/Toyota Concept Coupe. The others here are far more refined and unfortunately, more reliable than the GT. The GT needs to be THE BEST at something, it needs to have SOMETHING going for it outside of being really good looking. The fuel economy wouldn't be so bad if it had more power, and the handling wouldn't be such a concern if it behaved more civilized when driven normally as well as when the driver wants to have a little fun. The real killer is its inability to go somewhere without SOMETHING going wrong. It should at least be able to make 3-4 trips somewhere without a trip to the dealer.


    Ford needs to get with the program and re-introduce its global lineup in its home market, which is what I've been saying for years. Ford is rapidly losing marketshare here, and unless it does something drastic by 2010, Ford, as well as GM and DaimlerBenz are in some serious trouble here in the USA.

    Bottom line:
    Ford has paid too much attention to the Mustang here, and as a result the entire rest of the Model line has suffered. While Nationalism will still yield a few buyers regardless of quality, the superiority of the alternatives will ultimately bleed Ford's buyer-base dry. Ford already HAS vehicles that can save itself well within its stables, already in mass production elsewhere that can conform to higher MPG expectations and keep up with current automotive styling trends with cars that are attractive and actually look MODERN. If Ford wasn't so sure those of us in the good ol USA being Mustang-whores, it might have seen it could've saved a ton on R&D costs and further lowered its overall expenses by simply offering what it is already producing elsewhere, reducing costs of production for both overseas models as well as here by globalizing the lineup. While Ford UK is doing a great job and making sales, Ford US continues to disappoint by offering the Mustang as its only really attractive vehicle in ANY class.

    WAKE UP, FORD.


    Before it's too late.

    -Ghost

  7. #7
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    Ok. From what I can see. It looks like Ford is selling mostly mustangs and f-150s. Those happen to be the last two models that the REALLY put any serious effort into. And look, they are selling pretty well. Well enough that if they did not have them Ford may be history. I hope that they make the connection between the amount of effort they put into the stang and the F-150 and the amount of them they have sold. Maybe then they will realize that maybe..just maybe if they put the same time and effort into its other models they may also sell better. I do think that Ford could use a larger and smaller "go fast" car. Maybe a boosted AWD focus to compete with the cobalt. As for the bigger one I'd like to see them wait a few years a take the bird off the shelf. It would be nice if they would use a streached version of the new mustang chassie. It has proven to be strong & stiff. While they are at it the mustang IRS that never made it into the production version would be nice. The 03-04 supercharged cobra motors would be an interesting idea for a "supercoupe". Basicaly use all the mustang stuff possible to reduce production costs and of course make it easier to get aftermarket mods.

  8. #8
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    I think you need to go back and re-read what you just wrote. While I agree that Ford does invest a lot in the Mustang, there is a good reason for it-it's the only performance car the dumb~~~~s in this country will regularly purchase. America has absolutely no interest in buying performance vehicles. None. Look at how bad the GTO flopped. Find me a car as nice as the GTO with the same performance for the same price. You won't, yet people wouldn't buy it. Yet people are more than willing to fork over the same money for 4 cylinder automatic Accords. That sends a very clear message to automakers, I think. If you look at it that way, why would any automaker develop performace vehicles for the American market when people flat out refuse to buy them. It wastes resources. I also disagree with most of your assessment of Ford's lineup. Let's go through them.

    Fusion. Has been rated higher in initial quality than both Camry and Accord the past few years. Next year it gets the 3.5 rated at I think 263 hp and AWD. Performance-check. Reliabiltiy-check. Styling-it's been selling well, so sorry you don't like it, but check.

    Five-hundred. Fills a necessary market segment that is boring to us. It's a nice car, not very exciting, but it has to be boring to sell to old people. And it sells decently, so I see no problem with it.

    Focus can still hold it's own. Remember the SVT? That didn't sell, did it. Would you consider the Civic to be considerably higher performance than the Focus? Cause performance doesn't seem to be the driving force behind the cheap car market. The Civic has a reputation for being very reliable, and that has taken it a very long way. The other platform would be nice, but I don't think it would make a huge difference in sales, because the biggest difference there is performance, which we have already determined isn't important.

    Mondeo. Remember the Contour? Same car. Ford couldn't give them away, not even the SVT's. Another performance car that wasn't the Mustang that consumers told Ford to shove up their ~~~ (like the SC/SHO/SVT Focus.) Nice cars that people just wouldn't buy.

    Tiny cars. Good luck selling those in America. Good idea that will not catch on, I don't think. And Americans will not buy diesels, regardless of how much sense they make because Americans are stupid. I wouldn't mind being wrong about this one though, because they wouldn't be bad to have around.

    Vans. Ford's vans suck. You are correct. I don't think there are huge margins in the van market though, and the Odyssey is very, very hard to beat.

    Hybrids. If you buy a hybrid, you are stupid, don't like having money and are incapable of critical financial analysis. Sorry.

    Your lineup.

    The Falcon. I like the car. A lot. I would buy one if it had the balls that the GTo did. Most Americans won't though, cause it's GTO ish and Americans apparently don't like those. I think the Fusion fits that segment well, and the performance will be there next year.

    The Thunderbird won't be back for some time, and it will never have the performance that you want. It's a novelty car, nothing more.

    Your Mustang desires are insane. 500 hp for the highest level is plenty. 600 is ridiculous. Will they even be allowed to sell that? It will never happen. And the Mustang will never compete directly with the Si.

    Ford's SUV's are most likely the best out there. They don't make the Excursion, but if people will buy big pigs like that then why shouldn't Ford build them? They make huge margins on those, facilitating the development of other programs (which, unfortunately, you don't like.) And I don't know what the hell you're talking about with the F-150. It's the best selling truck for a reason, and that reason isn't because it's uncivilized. I can't figure out how a truck can get more civilized than that. If you can then maybe you need to go work for Ford and help the idiot engineers develop a truck that will sell better than it already is. That truck more than holds its own against ANY competition in terms of reliability and performance. And you want to bullet proof the Ranger? The only trucks in the same galaxy in terms of reliability are the Hilux/Tacoma. A 4 cyl, 5 speed Ranger is already virtually indestructable. What more do you want man?

    Ford GT. They don't even make this anymore. And you need to elaborate on how having more power than it already does would help fuel economy, because that logic escaped me. It's a moot point anyway, though, because fuel economy does not matter at all in the segment. But that doesn't matter either, because Ford really doesn't even need to be toying around in the super car market anyway. The GT served its purpose, and now its done. Ford isn't in the super car market, and they don't need to be wasting tons of money developing limited production vehicles that no one here would ever be able to buy anyway.

    Styling. Do you think the Camry is an exciting, cutting edge design? How about the Accord? I don't. People don't seem to care though. The Fusion fits right in with those designs, I think. And you make mention of the Subaru Legacy. Have you ever really looked at a Legacy GT? That car is incredible. But they're not moving 250,000 units per year selling those here either, because that's not what Americans want. It's not a Ford thing, it's an American auto buyer thing.

    Basically, your analysis of the situation makes little sense to me. You're basically saying that getting rid of/restyling the already segment leading SUV's (disregarding the margins they make on them), adding a bunch of performance cars that the public has repeatedly stated they don't want and won't buy, and investing heavily into the untested super small car market segment will save Ford. I'm sorry you don't want a Mustang. I don't want one either. But people only seem to like the Mustang, and Ford has always had trouble getting people to buy anything else performance wise. Next year we get a pretty kick ~~~ Fusion, and I'm kind of excited about it. But don't blame the Mustang or Ford for not wasting development resources on building performance oriented cars that Americans won't buy. They've done it before, and they've always flopped. Blame Americans who won't buy the cars that both you and I would very much like to see here. And you can blame unions-those disgusting entities will likely be the end of both Ford and GM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilredstang View Post
    Maybe a boosted AWD focus to compete with the cobalt.
    That already exists, it's called a Focus ST, powered by the Volvo S40's 2.4L turbo I-5, producing quite a lot of HP. We just don't sell it here. Unfortunately, it is not AWD like originally promised, BUT it doesn't understeer like the damn cobalt.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRTrackStar View Post
    I think you need to go back and re-read what you just wrote. While I agree that Ford does invest a lot in the Mustang, there is a good reason for it-it's the only performance car the dumb~~~~s in this country will regularly purchase. America has absolutely no interest in buying performance vehicles. None. Look at how bad the GTO flopped. Find me a car as nice as the GTO with the same performance for the same price. You won't, yet people wouldn't buy it. Yet people are more than willing to fork over the same money for 4 cylinder automatic Accords. That sends a very clear message to automakers, I think. If you look at it that way, why would any automaker develop performace vehicles for the American market when people flat out refuse to buy them. It wastes resources. I also disagree with most of your assessment of Ford's lineup. Let's go through them.

    Fusion. Has been rated higher in initial quality than both Camry and Accord the past few years. Next year it gets the 3.5 rated at I think 263 hp and AWD. Performance-check. Reliabiltiy-check. Styling-it's been selling well, so sorry you don't like it, but check.

    Hyundai scores well in 'initial quality', but ohhhhhhh well. I'd like to see a car that's as attractive as its Mazda counterpart, and do you remember that wonderful bit of sexiness that was the Iosis concept vehicle?
    Guess what's showed up as the face of the next Mondeo. I would gladly buy a Mondeo over the US Fusion.
    AWD is not standard and simply comes along pirated from the Mazdaspeed6.
    We will see if the new 3.5 is reliable, or even a worthwhile engine. While it has matched the performance numbers set as a benchmark by Nissan's 3.5L V6, reliability and quality will be the big issues for this car. I wouldn't hate this car so much if the front end looked as if it had SOME effort put into it-- as in, attractive enough to make me feel like I wouldn't mind seeing it in my driveway every day.

    Five-hundred. Fills a necessary market segment that is boring to us. It's a nice car, not very exciting, but it has to be boring to sell to old people. And it sells decently, so I see no problem with it.

    Why is the Lincoln division so much better looking?
    If the Five-Hundred was doing its job as a full-size sedan, it'd be worth the police agencies using them as police duty cars. It hasn't done the job well enough and the Crown Vic continues to fill that slot while the Dodge Charger and Chevrolet Impala are taking police marketshare away from it elsewhere. Second, I've seen quite a few Chargers and Impalas on the road-- how many Five-Hundreds have you seen lately?


    Focus can still hold it's own. Remember the SVT? That didn't sell, did it. Would you consider the Civic to be considerably higher performance than the Focus? Cause performance doesn't seem to be the driving force behind the cheap car market. The Civic has a reputation for being very reliable, and that has taken it a very long way. The other platform would be nice, but I don't think it would make a huge difference in sales, because the biggest difference there is performance, which we have already determined isn't important.

    Because they didn't sell us the turbocharged RS version, they sold us a lousy non-turbo, unexciting 170hp vehicle. Not exactly my cup of tea, and I'm not going to pay the SVT premium for little more than a Celica GT-S, particularly when I know a much better version is being sold elsewhere.

    Mondeo. Remember the Contour? Same car. Ford couldn't give them away, not even the SVT's. Another performance car that wasn't the Mustang that consumers told Ford to shove up their ~~~ (like the SC/SHO/SVT Focus.) Nice cars that people just wouldn't buy.

    Wrong. The reason Ford couldn't give the Contour away was because of the total lack of quality and abysmal reliability of the 4-cylinder versions. It sold quite well initially, and as the things fell apart, Ford could not repair the vehicle's reputation and thus had to discontinue the name in the US. Had Ford invested in something called QUALITY CONTROL, the Ford name would not have been so tarnished and unfortunately, as a result of the half-assed build quality of the contour, many people said that they will never buy a Ford again.

    Tiny cars. Good luck selling those in America. Good idea that will not catch on, I don't think. And Americans will not buy diesels, regardless of how much sense they make because Americans are stupid. I wouldn't mind being wrong about this one though, because they wouldn't be bad to have around.

    Just look at the sales numbers, Toyota's Yaris is selling so well that dealerships cannot keep the things stocked. The Prius has waiting lists just to buy one, and Honda's Fit is selling extremely well. Nissan's Versa isn't doing too hot, but then again, that thing totally sucks balls and isn't delivering the gas mileage numbers people want out of their tiny car.


    Vans. Ford's vans suck. You are correct. I don't think there are huge margins in the van market though, and the Odyssey is very, very hard to beat.

    Yes it is hard to beat, but the S-Max or Galaxy would make nice competitors.
    However, in reading the new issue of consumer reports, the Kia Sedona outscored all of the american van offerings. When Kia is better than you, something needs to be done.

    Hybrids. If you buy a hybrid, you are stupid, don't like having money and are incapable of critical financial analysis. Sorry.

    Give it a second thought. A decent hybrid offering would boost sales and give the marque a more eco-friendly image, if nothing else it'd be good for PR. However, Toyota's new Supra is looking at 400hp and is going to be a hybrid, and Honda's new NSX replacement will be hybrid as well, if the rumors are true. While Hybrids are currently for old people and hippies, there are a freaking LOT of them around. I almost as many Prius on the road now as I do Camrys and Accords. There is a definite market for it.

    Your lineup.

    The Falcon. I like the car. A lot. I would buy one if it had the balls that the GTo did. Most Americans won't though, cause it's GTO ish and Americans apparently don't like those. I think the Fusion fits that segment well, and the performance will be there next year.

    The Falcon *does* have the balls the GTO does. The Falcon comes from the same place the GTO (Holden Monaro) comes from. Part of the reason the GTO isn't selling well is because nobody knows it's out there. It has had a virtually non-existent advertising campaign, like the Lincoln LS enjoyed.

    The Thunderbird won't be back for some time, and it will never have the performance that you want. It's a novelty car, nothing more.

    Yeah, that's just wishful thinking, I know. I don't ever expect the car to come back as a 4-seater. I just threw that out there.

    Your Mustang desires are insane. 500 hp for the highest level is plenty. 600 is ridiculous. Will they even be allowed to sell that? It will never happen. And the Mustang will never compete directly with the Si.

    Mustang has to do something or else Corvette *will* remain king-of-the-hill performance wise, particularly with the scary fast Corvette SS (see: blue devil) sporting a supercharger that is currently running laps around the nurburgring.
    Have you seen HP numbers of normal cars these days? The BMW M5 and M6 are driving around with FIVE HUNDRED AND FIVE horsepower, and Corvette Z06's already have that. The Corvette SS will see at LEAST 100hp more, putting it well into the 600hp range. The Bugatti Veyron, while just an engineering excercise, puts down 1001 HP, and while you will probably never see one, it just goes to show that you can build and sell a car that comes with 1000hp from the factory. At this point 1001 HP is unfeasable for a normal car, I see no reason why 600hp cannot make an appearance as the Uberstang, particularly when the Shelby Cobra model already out puts down over 500hp. I don't see why they can't wring 100 more ponies out of a more advanced engine when Chevy is doing it, using an engine design that is over 50 years old. Given the Mustang is Ford's performance every-car we should have at least 3-4 engine options for the car, according to price, perhaps V6, V8 3v, V8 3v S/C, V8 4v S/C I/C. Independent rear is LONG overdue for this car, and it makes absolutely no sense to make an effort NOT to include one. It should at least be an option. The ride and handling of the car REALLY suffer for it. It should be included, if only to improve ride comfort and control. Our 2000 Mustang is so jittery on the 405 fwy that I had to spend an extra 400 dollars putting ZR rated 255 series tires on the thing just to make it finally stick to the damn pavement when there's bumps and such. None of my independent rear vehicles have that problem. The damn windstar is more surefooted on the freeway. Lastly, while the Mustang does not compete directly with the Civic Si it is very near its performance bracket and the average buyer is around the same age, so there is some market overlap.


    Ford's SUV's are most likely the best out there. They don't make the Excursion, but if people will buy big pigs like that then why shouldn't Ford build them? They make huge margins on those, facilitating the development of other programs (which, unfortunately, you don't like.) And I don't know what the hell you're talking about with the F-150. It's the best selling truck for a reason, and that reason isn't because it's uncivilized. I can't figure out how a truck can get more civilized than that. If you can then maybe you need to go work for Ford and help the idiot engineers develop a truck that will sell better than it already is. That truck more than holds its own against ANY competition in terms of reliability and performance. And you want to bullet proof the Ranger? The only trucks in the same galaxy in terms of reliability are the Hilux/Tacoma. A 4 cyl, 5 speed Ranger is already virtually indestructable. What more do you want man?

    Have you read the reliability reviews for the Ranger? More complaints than I had time to read. That said, have you watched CNN lately? Bosnia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Kosovo. Everywhere you look, the bad guys are a bunch of dudes riding around in an ancient toyota truck that's still running strong. The mexican gardeners know it, that's why they're all driving toyota pickups and using Honda lawn equipment.

    The F-150 just isn't as nice as say the Titan, Ridgeline or Tundra. I have driven all of them, and the F-150's 5.4 just did not feel lively or pull at all in a decent manner, even with the truck completely empty. Tachometer should be standard on the truck-- there's no reason why I should have to use the technician's digital odometer trick every time I want to see the tach. It costs an extra what, $.50 to include one per car?
    Really, I don't have that much to complain about with the F-150 except how the seats feel, and the way the engine feels. When I was working at U-Haul, our tired, 180,000 mile 460 V8's felt way more energetic even in a heavy-~~~ F-250 Boxtruck than the 5.4L Triton did in the unburdened 2005+ F150. The Triton V10 did not feel terribly energetic or strong, either in the newer 2005+ F250 boxtrucks. While these were stripped out models, I drove and compared the standard, regular person F-150 with a 5.4L and was unimpressed with the interior quality and style of the car. The F-250's style is just fine, though. I'm cool with the F-250. But my complaint about the Tach still sticks. It costs an extra $.50, so why not include it? Why skimp on something that everyone else includes as standard? Why do I need a full-size tach on my windstar and not on my f-150?


    Ford GT. They don't even make this anymore. And you need to elaborate on how having more power than it already does would help fuel economy, because that logic escaped me. It's a moot point anyway, though, because fuel economy does not matter at all in the segment. But that doesn't matter either, because Ford really doesn't even need to be toying around in the super car market anyway. The GT served its purpose, and now its done. Ford isn't in the super car market, and they don't need to be wasting tons of money developing limited production vehicles that no one here would ever be able to buy anyway.

    I said the fuel economy isn't that big of an issue given the segment, but it is problematic when compared side-by-side to the other supercars in its segment. You have to fill it up more than you do any of its competitors, save for the Zonda, but the key complaint is the ABYSMAL reliability. How are you going to look cool in it if it's always on a flatbed on the way to the dealer, or at the dealer being fixed? As for being able to buy them, maybe noone can buy them where you live, but around my neck of the woods quite a few folks can afford them and several people have (not people I see on TV mind you, but real everyday folks I've seen driving around) bought them. Unfortunately, they're in the shop as frequently as a Mercedes Benz.

    Styling. Do you think the Camry is an exciting, cutting edge design? How about the Accord? I don't. People don't seem to care though. The Fusion fits right in with those designs, I think. And you make mention of the Subaru Legacy. Have you ever really looked at a Legacy GT? That car is incredible. But they're not moving 250,000 units per year selling those here either, because that's not what Americans want. It's not a Ford thing, it's an American auto buyer thing.

    Yes, I have looked at a Legacy GT and driven the thing. It is an AMAZING piece of machinery. But at what it costs and with its lack of customer incentives, it is a hard buy. Furthermore, it isn't hardly advertised. I see quite a few Forester, Tribeca and Impreza ads, but nothing for Legacy.
    As I said above, Ford got the back end of the fusion ok- the complaint was it looked too much like a legacy, which isn't a bad thing-- the problem is the front end is totally unattractive. I could live with the face of a Camry or Accord in my driveway but seriously, I can't stand how it looks like a last-gen Honda Prelude in the front. It looks like they had the design all nice, and then somebody smacked the clay model really hard in the front with a board by accident, night before the unveiling and flattened it, and then they were all like, "well, um, no time to fix it, let's just leave it like that."
    Yes, I know Americans want conservative design in their boring everyday car, and you know what? That's fine by me. I know people don't want to stand out. But I also know people aren't going to want an eyesore. Just look at the example set by the Aztek. The Accord, Camry, Altima and the ilk are all decent to look at. They are not eyesores. The Mazda6, the Fusion's platform-mate and mechanical brother, is a very attractive, sexy car. I don't see why the Ford version can't be half as sexy. That's my primary complaint with the car. While Accords and Camrys are selling like hotcakes, when the Taurus was still around, were people buying it? No. They weren't, because the alternatives were better looking, offered better fuel economy and were more reliable. Now we have the fusion, which is as unattractive as the Taurus was in its final years, and it's just rubbish to look at. I wouldn't want one in my driveway when I could have a Mazda6 or an Accord instead. I mean, at least make it as pretty as an accord, for christsakes.


    Basically, your analysis of the situation makes little sense to me. You're basically saying that getting rid of/restyling the already segment leading SUV's (disregarding the margins they make on them), adding a bunch of performance cars that the public has repeatedly stated they don't want and won't buy, and investing heavily into the untested super small car market segment will save Ford. I'm sorry you don't want a Mustang. I don't want one either. But people only seem to like the Mustang, and Ford has always had trouble getting people to buy anything else performance wise. Next year we get a pretty kick ~~~ Fusion, and I'm kind of excited about it. But don't blame the Mustang or Ford for not wasting development resources on building performance oriented cars that Americans won't buy. They've done it before, and they've always flopped. Blame Americans who won't buy the cars that both you and I would very much like to see here. And you can blame unions-those disgusting entities will likely be the end of both Ford and GM.
    Re-read my post. The situation, as asessed, provides solutions to boost Ford's fuel economy to Toyota or Honda standards, improve the desirability levels of their car-type offerings, and improve reliability overall and reduce costs by mass producing parts already being made elsewhere. The more you make of something, the less it costs you to make it. So, instead of spending R&D money developing two different cars for the same market segment on different sides of the ocean, produce the same car, at a higher profit, and improve reliability because you've only got one vehicle on either side of the ocean to worry about. I am not introducing a ton of "performance" cars, in fact, I listed the horsepower numbers actually produced by Ford UK and AU's existing engines, converted from KW and NM to HP and TQ. You could have Prius-esque fuel economy with one of Ford's current Duratorq diesels here in the US, while at the same time delivering a competitive power and beautiful, attractive styling. Everything I listed already is being built elsewhere, save for what I listed for the Mustang and F-150 which really don't need to be messed with that badly. You already have this AVAILABLE, fully built, tested and developed. This isn't investing heavily into something totally new, and it's simply bringing your products from elsewhere here.
    And so, why not improve your (Ford's) offerings?

    And why not improve your build quality a little, too? Our 2000 Windstar has eaten a transmission after just 60k mi, and needed to have its leaky plastic intake replaced-- twice-- our 2000 Mustang has had its fuel pump fail short of 80,000 miles, has suffered two failed exhaust manifolds, and is extremely difficult to control at freeway speeds. Our 2004 Focus was a joy to drive, but did not deliver anywhere near the fuel economy expected, even with its PZEV 2.3L I-4, and a 5-speed, it only averaged about 20 mpg, and was noisy and had started to rattle, despite meticulous care and maintainance (until its murder-by-camry at 26,000 miles), whereas our 1995 Thunderbird LX 4.6 (the one with 30,000 miles) averages 18mpg with an automatic and literally twice the displacement. Our 1989 Taurus practically disintegrated as soon as it hit 100,000, and everything on that car needed to be replaced at least once. Our 79 2.3 SOHC 4-spd Mustang served dutifully until it was retired, still running well, in 2000 after failing smog for the third time at 160,000. Our 86' E-150 is still around performing chores now and then, and continues to function poorly despite my best efforts to make it produce all 160hp and get at least 12mpg that my 4.9 liters are supposed to be giving me. So, 50% of our Ford vehicles have done quite poorly. Now, had my only Ford car been a Taurus or a Windstar, I would tell you quite readily that I would never buy another Ford. I simply don't see why build quality in the lineup cannot be consistent enough that people can buy the cars and expect them to last at LEAST 10 years as they can do with a Toyota or Honda.

    My dad has been complaining about Ford's practice of cheaping out at the expense of reliability and long-term quality for years, even though we have 5 of them at my house now. My Grandfather complained about the shortcuts, too when he worked at the Ford plant on Terminal Island outside of Long Beach, CA years and years ago. We are very much a Ford family and we're concerned for our Ford. We really do like to buy american products, and like to see our money stay within our country, but gosh, Ford sure is making it hard. I sure as ~~~~ am not going to buy GM, either. Our 54,000 mile Saturn has had more go wrong with it than any other car we've owned.


    In summary, I am not asking for a complete redevelopment of the line-- I am asking for a global lineup that's the same everywhere. I am asking for cars that are already fully developed and ready to go and already sold under the FORD marque elsewhere to be introduced here, and proposing that Ford make a move into the smallcar market by offering, at least briefly, a Fiesta or a Ka to compete with xA, xb, Yaris, Fit, SX4, Accent and Versa while the market for it is hot. Don't miss out on the opportunity while others are cashing in on a market none of your US vehicles taps.
    Other makes are offering more attractive, more powerful cars, and I don't see why Ford cannot step up to the plate with competitive offerings with Fords already sold overseas.


    Thanks for reading.
    -Ghost

  11. #11
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    I suppose I see where you're coming from reliability wise. I myself put considerable effort literally gimping a 91 Sable to 96k before I gave up. However, mom has a 97 Lincoln Continental with almost 120k that has been unbelievably reliable. The thing doesn't even hiccup. Dad's Explorer is also solid, despite having to endure several automotive travesties that should have brought an end to the transmission. I'll give you 15 year old Fords being ~~~'s, because I've had (and still do) them, and they are. But I don't think it's fair to label newer Ford cars that way, because they really aren't. I too come from a Ford family. My grandpa worked for Ford his whole life, and I have honestly never owned a car that wasn't a Ford, so I want them to succeed just as you do. But the mentality you are presenting here is exactly what Ford is fighting now. Even if they build a good car, it doesn't matter, because they have a poor image in product quality that will only be reversed with time. A long time. GM is in the same boat. American automakers aren't in a position where they can make mistakes, as they are under a microscope right now. Honda can, and their mistakes are quickly forgiven, which is why they can still sell Odysseys.

    I don't think your Mustang argument is reasonable. You're honestly asking Ford to build a car that can satisfy a market segment ranging from around 20k to 70k. 16 year old girls need to be able to drive it to school, and it needs to be able to run 11's in the quarter and 7 minutes on the ring. If you want Ford to go against the Corvette, they need a new car to do so, because there is no way to make the Mustang both affordable and have the performance to beat it. It was never meant to beat the Corvette, and it never will. That's why you can't buy a Vette for 20k. They can build a Mustang to outrun the Vette in a straight line, but it won't be really driveable, because the chassis just can't be designed to really handle that kind of power and still be cheap.

    All I have to say about your F-150 argument is tow a 7000 lb trailer with an F-150 and then go tow the same trailer with a Tundra. Tell me which one does it better. Let's see what Toyota's legendary quality is all about. Ford trucks are meant for towing-that's how they're tuned. The Titan is a bad ~~~ truck, I'll give you that. The Ridgeline can't do very many truck things, so it shouldn't even be included here. If Ford's only requirements were to build a car like truck that doesn't have to plow or tow, I bet they could build a really nice riding truck too.

    As long as Ford continues to build Crown Vics, PD's will continue to buy them. Ford doesn't need to sell them Five Hundreds-I don't even think they have a police package available. We'll see what happens when they stop making Crown Vics. But you have to expect PD's to start buying Chargers and Impalas when other automakers actually start offering them. That's just the way it goes.

    I foresee very few problems with the 3.5 in the Fusion. It's not like its a new design from a new family. It comes from a family that's proven to be very reliable. As far as the aesthetics of the Fusion go, that's simply your opinion. I personally think the new Camry looks like ~~~~, but I also know it will sell. And I don't care where the AWD system came from, so long as it has it available. Only time will tell in terms of quality, but it has been quite good so far.

    I see where you're coming from in your global lineup argument. It does make sense, and maybe it would help. Perhaps I underestimated the market and incorrectly classified the Focus as a direct competitor to cars like the xA and the Accent. But I do think Ford offers a decent lineup, although it undoubtedly focuses on its trucks. That's how they have made their money in the past, and it will most likely need to change in the future for them to remain a well-rounded car maker.

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    BTW, that was NRTrackStar posting from Shane's computer. Whoops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRTrackStar View Post

    I don't think your Mustang argument is reasonable. You're honestly asking Ford to build a car that can satisfy a market segment ranging from around 20k to 70k. 16 year old girls need to be able to drive it to school, and it needs to be able to run 11's in the quarter and 7 minutes on the ring. If you want Ford to go against the Corvette, they need a new car to do so, because there is no way to make the Mustang both affordable and have the performance to beat it. It was never meant to beat the Corvette, and it never will. That's why you can't buy a Vette for 20k. They can build a Mustang to outrun the Vette in a straight line, but it won't be really driveable, because the chassis just can't be designed to really handle that kind of power and still be cheap.

    Hrm, perhaps you're right on the mustang bit; but seriously I'd really like to see at least 4 engine options. I do not see Ford producing a Vette competitor if it isn't going to use the Tbird to do it.


    All I have to say about your F-150 argument is tow a 7000 lb trailer with an F-150 and then go tow the same trailer with a Tundra. Tell me which one does it better. Let's see what Toyota's legendary quality is all about. Ford trucks are meant for towing-that's how they're tuned. The Titan is a bad ~~~ truck, I'll give you that. The Ridgeline can't do very many truck things, so it shouldn't even be included here. If Ford's only requirements were to build a car like truck that doesn't have to plow or tow, I bet they could build a really nice riding truck too.

    The Tundra that I drove (which was a 2000 model if I recall correctly) with the iForce V8 towed quite nicely when we had to take numerous RV-class (in normalspeak it's a 6x12 closed doubleaxle trailer) to another U-Haul location 30 miles away. I drove an F-250 14' U-Haul truck with a 460 2000 miles towing a loaded auto transport and had no problems, whereas the F-150 pickup with the 5.4 we rent for $19.95 a day felt weak when weighed down with a loaded auto transport. My key complaint with teh F-series in general as it sits now is that I don't like the ride/interior enough, and there doesn't seem to be enough power. Key example were my tired 90's F250s with 460s in them versus the Triton V10, the Triton just couldn't move as well.

    As long as Ford continues to build Crown Vics, PD's will continue to buy them. Ford doesn't need to sell them Five Hundreds-I don't even think they have a police package available. We'll see what happens when they stop making Crown Vics. But you have to expect PD's to start buying Chargers and Impalas when other automakers actually start offering them. That's just the way it goes.

    PD's are already buying chargers, and have been buying the impala for quite a while now. The Oklahoma State Patrol Chargers I saw sitting in the median were pretty damn scary looking-- all back with a bit of lettering on the side if I recall correctly. The Crown Vic platform, useful as it is, has really reached the end of its life and is seriously wanting for a redesign-- it's been the same since what, 1997/98? It seems to me the logical step for a fullsize would be to use a Five-Hundred with AWD as a police car-- that'd be wicked useful in snowbelt states-- instead of a rwd Crown Vic-- I mean, I really can't see why they would introduce the Five Hundred at all in the segment that it's in if not to replace the crown victoria.
    soooo... yeah
    Last edited by The_Ghost; 01-09-2007 at 04:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quick35th View Post
    BTW, that was NRTrackStar posting from Shane's computer. Whoops.
    I was about to say I dont remember typing that big long novel out last night. Kevin must have forgotten to log me off and log him in

    Shane

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    Well I;m not going to get deep into this but what Ford needs to do is win Back the American Market with cars they want...Overall Ford has a lineup that hits the various segments of the American Market place..And performance vehicles is a very very very small segment.

    However I think offering high profile high performance versions of almost every car lineup they have would boost sales...Almost like free advertisement that people will pay for....Remember win on Sunday Buy on Monday?..

    When someone sees a new Hemi Charger with a flashy package out there it brings attention to the car. Maybe the person wont want one of those...But they may want a 6cyl model...What does it cost Chrysler?...They charge the customer so not much..

    The cars that dont sell much are the ones that bring in sales for others. 6cyl mustangs WAY outsell the v8;s...But would they sell as well if there was no v8?..Or performance option>?...Heck the Stang would have been gone long ago if that was the case

    Whats wrong with having a performance version of a 500?...Or any other line out there..

    The reason why the contour SVT or focus SVT themselves didnt fare all that well is because there wasnt much to it..Tuned suspension..Extrude hone this and that....That alone shows you not much went into it..Instead of creating performance peices...They just blueprinted stock peices.....But these cars may have just helped sell contours and Focus's as a whole....

    AND MORE THEN ANYTHING..........Ford neeeds to hire a better marketing department..Its nice to think cars sell themselves but they dont.

    Lastly.....The one market you need to ABSOLUTELYconvince to buy your products are the teenagers and mid 20's population...Because they are your companys future...Besides the mustang...Fords not doing avery good job at that...Keeping in mind not every parent will allow there kid to own a mustang...

    Chrysler was able to sell crap for years due to good advertising....Fords has a problem selling even there good cars...Thats the problem.

    Would it hurt Ford to have a spiffy version of every lineup...I dont think so
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